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Full Tilt Poker




   


SITE:

This was a site that was launched in the middle of 2004. The bigthing about this site is that you can play against some professional players, like John Juanda, Phil Gordon, and more. The pros don't necessarily play that much but if you are on the site regularly then you will encounter them. I personally sat with Phil Gordon at a $3/$6 table and chatted with him a little bit.

BONUS:

Full Tilt has a 100% bonus up to $600. It is one of the biggest bonuses in online poker. It takes a long time to earn it though.

TOURNAMENTS:

They have a decent tournament selection where you can play with pros and they also have satelites for the popular TV tournies.

POINTS:

"We offer you one point for every dollar in rake that is dropped, including fractional points. Most sites limit you to a maximum of one point for every hand; we let you earn up to 3 points per hand. You can also earn points playing in tournaments and Sit & Go's. Earn 7 points for every $1 in entry fees, with no limit to the number of points you can earn per tournament.

There are multiple ways to use your points, including entries into special points tournaments, and redemption for merchandise. Start collecting points now, so when our store opens you can redeem for jerseys, shirts, hats and more! Full Tilt will be offering special bonus point games, so keep an eye out for ways to earn extra points! ".

SOFTWARE:

The software is pretty good. The functionality is decent and you can set up cartoon avatars (if that is your thing).


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COMMENTS:
crashbah
July 5, 2009
decided to play one more... mistake!
lasted only a few hands... lost a lot of chips to a dork that did not know what pot odds were, so he rode his flush draw to the river and caught it(of course)..... then raised 4x again with 88 on the button. 1 caller.... flop comes 5h 2h 8h
the guy checks and I push hard to deter any chance the guy might want to stick around with a high heart.... he calls the all in... he flips Qh 6h.
I give up!.... as soon as i can im going to cash out my money and get the FUCK away from this site


crashbah
July 5, 2009
so i just played another tourney... the first since my last post. sick sick sick
i am on the button with 54 which most would play probably, but i fold... the flop comes 4k5.
i think to my self "figures" but someone probably has poket Kings.... a 4 hits on the turn which would have given me a boat, but sure enough, 2 others are all in, and what does the guy to my left have????? KK... would have taken a sick cooler there. so I get crap for the next few hands and watch 3 people go all in... 2 have KK and one has A 10.... flop XXX turn 10 river 10
OMG.....
so i fold everything i see until i finally get QQ... i raise 4x and get 2 callers that limped. the flop comes 6A7... of course the scare card is there, but i dont feel like either one has it. I am out of position, but have to continue, so I do, player 2 folds player 3 calls..... next card is a 4.... I decide that the guy is on a flush draw or has like a low pocket pair or something. so i continue again, he calls... the river is a 2.... im thinking now i have the best hand, till he flips over 85......down to 450 in chips so i stay out of things until i get a hand to shove with.... AQ... there it is... same guy calls me with K 10 and spikes a 10... im out.....

WTF do i have to do to win on this site?... get a job there?


what odds
July 4, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashbah View Post
I have read the postings on this site and i must agree with what odds and nitemare6.... i have played on UB, Bodog, full tilt and a couple of other sites as well. I am not a crybaby loser as i am up $ in the long run, however I have seen enough to know that something is amiss. I play regualrly at casinos as well and i see hands live all the time where players win a 3 or 4 handed pot with Q high or similar. You almost NEVER see high card win a hand on full tilt. I am not buying the whole you see more bad beats because you are playing 3-4 times the number of hands. 3-4 times the hands would mean 3-4 times the number of hands where high card wins. I get to the point where i know if i flop top pair top kicker, I am almost certainly drawing dead, even in heads up play. the other thing i see constantly is the bigger the fish, the higher his chip lead. aytime i am playing in a touney or cash game, there is usually one donk at the table that either his strategy is all in all in all in until he either wins or is out, or someone who will call anything with any hand. I will play patiently watching this moron take out player after player with suckouts that are too unlikely to be believed, until I get a hand like AA, KK, QQ or AK. Doesnt matter what the hand is, i know he is going to suck out with his 62 off.

I started out on a pretty good run, playing position tight and agressive, but after doubling my $, I reached that point where the winning just stops for huge runs at a time. I still play the same way and it proves to be successful in live play, but I do think that bad play is rewarded way too often on these sites. BYW the same story on UB and just about every other site i have played and I am glad that I am not the only one who sees this as well... I love the game and fully believe that it is a skill game over all where solid players can make money.

I still play with the hopes that I can win a big tournament again.( i recently won a freeroll with over 3000 entries and you dont see many more donks than that!.... i won a whopping 15 dollars. )... but i take the site now with a grain of salt, knowing that i am going to lose about 70% of the hands where I am ahead and try not to play more than 3 games per day.
I actually challenge someone who defends FTP to post a HH where they have got 3 streets of value from TPTK.

So you raise AK on the button, flop comes A X X

Player check calls down with a weaker ace and you win the pot- flop turn and river value- it just doesn't happen, they either have absolutely nothing and fold on the flop/turn or they make a two pair hand or complete a straight/flush and you lose. Unless your hand improves you can probably fold TPTK if called beyond the flop. Which is a fucking ridiculous strategy for any serious poker player.

Or, open up PT or HEM and look at your flopped set hands when there has been a flush draw on the board. Now look for when the turn or river has brought the third suit- they have the fucking flush almost every time- the scare card is a scare card, it shouldn't mean your opponent has made the flush everytime.

The % don't add up- IF YOU HOLD A BIG HAND AND THE SCARE CARD FALLS- SO SET AND TURN COMPLETES A POSSIBLE STRAIGHT OR FLUSH, THEY HAVE IT ALL THE TIME. How is that possible? Don't they ever flop TP or two pair when you make a set, it is just BS and is so blatantly obvious in comparison to other sites that it amazes me people can defend the site.

But the majority of players are losing players so FTP suits them a lot better because they won't bust as fast and will stay there- FTP caters for the majority, not the minority, it is just common sense business in their POV and no one is there to regulate what they do except the Indian owned 'gaming' commission which I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw the director.


crashbah
July 4, 2009
I have read the postings on this site and i must agree with what odds and nitemare6.... i have played on UB, Bodog, full tilt and a couple of other sites as well. I am not a crybaby loser as i am up $ in the long run, however I have seen enough to know that something is amiss. I play regualrly at casinos as well and i see hands live all the time where players win a 3 or 4 handed pot with Q high or similar. You almost NEVER see high card win a hand on full tilt. I am not buying the whole you see more bad beats because you are playing 3-4 times the number of hands. 3-4 times the hands would mean 3-4 times the number of hands where high card wins. I get to the point where i know if i flop top pair top kicker, I am almost certainly drawing dead, even in heads up play. the other thing i see constantly is the bigger the fish, the higher his chip lead. aytime i am playing in a touney or cash game, there is usually one donk at the table that either his strategy is all in all in all in until he either wins or is out, or someone who will call anything with any hand. I will play patiently watching this moron take out player after player with suckouts that are too unlikely to be believed, until I get a hand like AA, KK, QQ or AK. Doesnt matter what the hand is, i know he is going to suck out with his 62 off.

I started out on a pretty good run, playing position tight and agressive, but after doubling my $, I reached that point where the winning just stops for huge runs at a time. I still play the same way and it proves to be successful in live play, but I do think that bad play is rewarded way too often on these sites. BYW the same story on UB and just about every other site i have played and I am glad that I am not the only one who sees this as well... I love the game and fully believe that it is a skill game over all where solid players can make money.

I still play with the hopes that I can win a big tournament again.( i recently won a freeroll with over 3000 entries and you dont see many more donks than that!.... i won a whopping 15 dollars. )... but i take the site now with a grain of salt, knowing that i am going to lose about 70% of the hands where I am ahead and try not to play more than 3 games per day.


buck22
July 1, 2009
Full tilt aint rigged, pokers rigged! It's the sickest game in the world with just the right amount of bad beats, cold decks , talent and near infinite experience to break all but the best players. A year ago i wouldve said pokerstars was rigged cos i wasnt playing well enough, blinded by bad beats and cold decks i neglected to see the real profit that comes from bankroll management, not tilting and playing worse after bad beats and playing with a logic that beats each individual player at my table.

I just played for about 4 hours, two SNG's came 1st and 2nd even though i was down to my last $200 chips in both, nice $450 win, then play cash hu, went in 3times on the turn as 80% favourite and get shafted EVERY time! Pokers a sick game that doesn't deliver results immediately but waits till your so pi**ed off and disheartened that any man would crumble and THEN it pays off your patience and hard work.

Fulltilt can't be proven to be rigged cos it's such a sick game anyway noone could tell the difference. Im 8 months into this bankroll and it's exactly where it should be, but if you think I haven't been brutally hammered by bad beats and cold decks to the point where Im sure it's rigged, your very wrong.

IT AINT RIGGED, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, FIND WHAT IT IS AND PLUG IT!


Witch of Agnesi
June 30, 2009
I just have this to add to the thread:
If you believe in miracles, they will come true on FTP.
If you believe in statistics and probability, you'd better play somewhere else.


what odds
June 28, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
Tell you what VA and what odds, if 50,000 hands is enough to get proof we could easily put that together between us.

If we played 4 tables at a time and played bout 17,000 hands each, that could take us 2 weeks easy.

I wouldnt mind puttin the time in if your willing, only thing is, will FTP give us 17,000 hands history, and who will anylise the stats and at what cost .

If any WINNING players are interested, send an email to my old email address pj_catering@yahoo.co.uk
That's the thing Bucks. Also, technically, HH's prove nothing- because variance can happen non stop. Every time you get AA all in pre flop, you are going to lose 1/5 longterm, but what is the long term? There is nothing in the laws of maths that says you couldn't lose 5/5 for eternity. What you have to do is just use a bit of common sense and make your judgements off your own God given ability to make them- I know what I see is manipulated cards because you see things that just you know in your heart are not random.

Try typing in 'APCW's audit of FTP' in google. These guys are involved in the industry and made an audit video about FTP. They came to the conculsion that the RNG was fucked up basically :D

However, they've taken the video down though because they got absolutely slated on poker forums and there is just simply no expert out there willing to study HH's or post their true beliefs on the issue. A maths expert could take a 1,000,000 hands history sample from someone and do some hardcore analysis to prove everything is OK with the RNG. But they don't. Or perhaps the experts have done some research and found the faults in the RNG extremely exploitable and it would therefore be in their own interests to keep that information to themselves for obvious financial reasons.

Everyone is willing to mock the 'conspiracy therorists' but people who have the skills to study HH's and come out with the proof don't respond to emails...and you have to wonder if there are people in the know about FTP's RNG and can actually exploit it for profit?


buck22
June 27, 2009
Tell you what VA and what odds, if 50,000 hands is enough to get proof we could easily put that together between us.

If we played 4 tables at a time and played bout 17,000 hands each, that could take us 2 weeks easy.

I wouldnt mind puttin the time in if your willing, only thing is, will FTP give us 17,000 hands history, and who will anylise the stats and at what cost .


what odds
June 27, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
whatodds,

I was responding to nitemare's post because he continues to personally attack me because I say in my opinion FTP probably isn't rigged. You are right though, it makes alot more sense to respond to what you are saying rather than respond to incomprehensibe personal attacks by strangers. I'd rather have a good discussion than trade insults any day.

As far as your stats go I see your logic but here's what I don't understand. You seem to be comparing your NL5 stats on FTP to your stats on other sites playing bigger stakes. It seems to me, to compare results on different site you would use samples from the same levels. When I first started playing online I started out fairly low, even though I'd had success live I wanted to start low as I felt the online game was probably alot different. It was very very difficult for me to win money at NL10 and NL25 even though I've had modestly consistent success for years playing 1/2 and 2/4 live. Finally I just deposited $1000, started playng NL100 and have been fairly successful ever since. I know you think if you win at NL25 or NL50 other places you should be crushing NL5 at FTP because the competition is worse. In my opinion, sometimes the comepetiton can be so bad that its hard to win consistently. You can never bluff them off of any hand, you never know where you stand in any given hand because their ranges are incomprehensible. Sure you can win a ton if you are simply getting better cards than everyone else. I honestly don't know how else you'd win. So to me, thats basically just a straight gamble. So basically I think your lack of success at NL 5 and success at other levels makes sense to me. I wouldn't make a big side bet that I could crush an NL5 game even though I do fairly well at higher stakes, its just like bingo. Even if you don't agree with my logic I still think it's a bad way to determine anything. A more accurate way would be to compare your results with the same stakes from one site to another.

With all of that being said, even if you lose at one site at NL25 and win at another site at NL25 doesn't mean there is anything weird going on at the site you are losing at. Maybe your style doesn't mesh well with the style of the LAG Easten Europeans that are everywhere on FTP. Maybe you lose there because you go into every game KNOWING you are going to lose because you don't trust the site. In any sport, how many times do you go in KNOWING you are going to lose and win? My point is there could be a ton of different reasons why you have success one place and lack success another. What I do not understand is why you keep playing on FTP. Rigged or not, I honestly don't think you will ever win on FTP. Not because of your play or antying but like I said before even if you go into a basketball game knowing you will lose, youre going to lose and poker is 100% mental. Thats why bad runs last longer for some than others. You can only run bad luck wise for so long but some players, after running bad for awhile, get it in their head that they can't win. That only prolongs the bad run. Thats why taking some time off and clearing your head always works. It's not that the time off changed your luck its just that it gets you back into a mindframe that you can win.

Honestly, I know for a fact we will never agree on this and you are one of the only people here that disagrees with me but doesn't think im a complete ass so I appreciate that. What are you trying to accomplish though? You know you aren't going to bring FTP down or anything like that. As far as warning people goes, the warnings are out there, there are a million psts on a million forums, some claiming EVERY site is rigged. The problem with the warning thing is that most people on your side tend to make weak arguments centered around 2 bad beats that they took and it comprimises your argument. I think you truly believe what you are saying and I respect that but for your own sake atleast stop playing at FTP. I don't suppose making posts reguarding it being rigged is detrimental to you but continuing to thrown money away at FTP certainly is. Not only are you likely to lose there but it can't possible be good for your poker state of mind. As I said before, if you ever want to transfer whatever money you have in your FTP account to me, I'll transfer an equal amount to your stars account.
Great post mate. I'm only playing NL5 every now and then to build a sample of hands just to satisfy myself, it is is only about $50 or so in the account.

I have played equivelant stakes, as I beat Betfair's NL4 for +30bb/100 over a 20,000+ hand sample before moving up...whilst it can seem like bingo, it is a proven fact that the worse the opposition, the bigger your edge, the higher your win rate and you encounter less variance because you are getting people to showdown way more often with terrible hands vs your solid hands.

Saying bad players= more variance is one of the biggest misconceptions out there as a big winrate will see you breeze through variance quite easily. Variance comes at tougher tables when people aren't willing to go to showdown with crap- if you hit variance at tough tables, you'll know about it.

At Betfair's NL4- and also Cake Poker's NL4 that I beat for 18bb/100 for about 15,000 hands (I even took a downswing of 9 buy ins in that time yet still came out well ahead), I'd rarely have a losing session. Sure I'd drop a buy in or two but you're getting paid off by so much crap that if you keep at it you'll have a very good win rate at NL4/NL5.

I see your point that different sites have different playing styles, but I just don't see how you can go from crushing NL4 on two sites to losing at a decent rate on FTP's NL5.

One part I do agree with though is the mental approach. Poker is a mental game (both meaning's applied :D) and perhaps me going into the games expecting to be rivered or coolered actually has some kind of impact on the cards that fall...?

I've just played a few hands today after my main session at another site, had a good day, won 3 buy ins at NL25, then opened up FTP's NL5 and dropped two buy ins. Set over set and Set of 9's that ran into a flopped flush, board was 9h Th 3h...there's just no way you fold a set in a raised pot at NL5...so I got my money in bad twice but I'm sorry, it is just blatant set up BS.

Again, I'm just building up a sample of hands to satisfy myself when I get the chance, probably quite sad to do so, but I lost so much money at FTP that I just want to be convinced. If I reach 50,000 hands and am still losing money at NL5, then that is proof enough for me. And I wouldn't mind sending the HH's to an expert in the field to do some study on it.


VA Poker
June 27, 2009
whatodds,

I was responding to nitemare's post because he continues to personally attack me because I say in my opinion FTP probably isn't rigged. You are right though, it makes alot more sense to respond to what you are saying rather than respond to incomprehensibe personal attacks by strangers. I'd rather have a good discussion than trade insults any day.

As far as your stats go I see your logic but here's what I don't understand. You seem to be comparing your NL5 stats on FTP to your stats on other sites playing bigger stakes. It seems to me, to compare results on different site you would use samples from the same levels. When I first started playing online I started out fairly low, even though I'd had success live I wanted to start low as I felt the online game was probably alot different. It was very very difficult for me to win money at NL10 and NL25 even though I've had modestly consistent success for years playing 1/2 and 2/4 live. Finally I just deposited $1000, started playng NL100 and have been fairly successful ever since. I know you think if you win at NL25 or NL50 other places you should be crushing NL5 at FTP because the competition is worse. In my opinion, sometimes the comepetiton can be so bad that its hard to win consistently. You can never bluff them off of any hand, you never know where you stand in any given hand because their ranges are incomprehensible. Sure you can win a ton if you are simply getting better cards than everyone else. I honestly don't know how else you'd win. So to me, thats basically just a straight gamble. So basically I think your lack of success at NL 5 and success at other levels makes sense to me. I wouldn't make a big side bet that I could crush an NL5 game even though I do fairly well at higher stakes, its just like bingo. Even if you don't agree with my logic I still think it's a bad way to determine anything. A more accurate way would be to compare your results with the same stakes from one site to another.

With all of that being said, even if you lose at one site at NL25 and win at another site at NL25 doesn't mean there is anything weird going on at the site you are losing at. Maybe your style doesn't mesh well with the style of the LAG Easten Europeans that are everywhere on FTP. Maybe you lose there because you go into every game KNOWING you are going to lose because you don't trust the site. In any sport, how many times do you go in KNOWING you are going to lose and win? My point is there could be a ton of different reasons why you have success one place and lack success another. What I do not understand is why you keep playing on FTP. Rigged or not, I honestly don't think you will ever win on FTP. Not because of your play or antying but like I said before even if you go into a basketball game knowing you will lose, youre going to lose and poker is 100% mental. Thats why bad runs last longer for some than others. You can only run bad luck wise for so long but some players, after running bad for awhile, get it in their head that they can't win. That only prolongs the bad run. Thats why taking some time off and clearing your head always works. It's not that the time off changed your luck its just that it gets you back into a mindframe that you can win.

Honestly, I know for a fact we will never agree on this and you are one of the only people here that disagrees with me but doesn't think im a complete ass so I appreciate that. What are you trying to accomplish though? You know you aren't going to bring FTP down or anything like that. As far as warning people goes, the warnings are out there, there are a million psts on a million forums, some claiming EVERY site is rigged. The problem with the warning thing is that most people on your side tend to make weak arguments centered around 2 bad beats that they took and it comprimises your argument. I think you truly believe what you are saying and I respect that but for your own sake atleast stop playing at FTP. I don't suppose making posts reguarding it being rigged is detrimental to you but continuing to thrown money away at FTP certainly is. Not only are you likely to lose there but it can't possible be good for your poker state of mind. As I said before, if you ever want to transfer whatever money you have in your FTP account to me, I'll transfer an equal amount to your stars account.


buck22
June 26, 2009
Been playing some relatively large stakes single table recently of which the pots are 99% of the time resolved before before the river, rarely all in. I've found that haven't had ridiculous bad beats, still a few, but thought my super unlucky run had taken a turn. My mate asked me to play some $10 games for him and the suck outs were silly. It all came back to me, suddenly AA was gettin cracked constantly, top pairs outdrawn, it just has to be the volume of action that one gets at low stakes.
If people are playing better, there's alot less gambling going on, less variance.
Im playing stars at mo, doing fine, but playing the low stakes just deja vu'd my whole experience with fulltilt.

THEORY: When players are playing better, you win money slowly but consistantly, and when players are bad, you win in huge streaks but accompanied with far more bad beats.

Ultimately bad players are better equity, but you will have long streaks of losing to them. So this could easily be mistaken for a dodgy RNG.


what odds
June 26, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
nitemare,
I don't really know what you are talking about. Are you talking about the last thing I said to you? The last thing I said to you was the FTP didn't make any more money by making you lose to a straight (I was nice enough not to point out that you went broke with a pair on the 4th hand of a tourney). I simply asked you multiple times how FTP made more money by you losing that hand. You still have yet to answer me. If you want to personally attack me for not thinking a website is rigged against me thats fine. Just go see how many people are playing on FTP right now. I wonder who they agree with.
Well actually player numbers can be used to argue quite the opposite VA. The vast majority of poker players are losing players, if they suck out more and seem to make their deposits last longer at FTP, that would explain why more people play there!

For the excitement and gambling factor, which most players are after, FTP is perfect.

I'm actually interested in what you think regards my last post.

It is almost becoming an obsession for me to understand the RNG at FTP, I'm currently still losing at FTP's NL5, I've been putting in an hour here or there whenever possible.

Now my winrate at a previous site this low (betfair's NL4), I ran at +30bb/100 over a good sample, I'm a winning player up to NL25 for a decent clip at my main sites, what do you think contributes to my extended losses at FTP's NL5 level?

I'd love to hear your view instead of you bypassing all the discussion and pulling Nightmare's pointless posts to pieces.

The point is, NL5 is DESTROYABLE. You raise from position and bet your hands for value and get paid off...If you say 6 table for a 4 hour period, you'd have to run pretty badly to have a losing session at NL5. Player's will call raises with Q8o and stack off if the flop comes 867 and you hold T9s or a set etc...

However, I've passed 30,000 hands of FTP's NL5 and am fucking losing money- nowhere near breaking even, I am -2.58BB/100. As I'll repeat, my all in EV is as expected, you can't catch them there, it is the coolers and action hands- you 3 bet AA, flop comes a perfect 55T, except they have Q5o or TT...the money is going in son, you couln't fold AA there and claim to be a poker player...the point is, it keeps happening.

Also what I'll say, you sit there for hours winning pots, losing pots, bang on break even for the session then FUCK OFF- two coolers or beats in succession and you find yourself 2 buy ins down...you're sitting there thinking can this be really happening?

VA, ignore nightmare, I want your thoughts on why I can't beat FTP's NL5 even though the exact same solid TAG strategy works fine up to NL25 for me on other sites.


VA Poker
June 24, 2009
nitemare,
I don't really know what you are talking about. Are you talking about the last thing I said to you? The last thing I said to you was the FTP didn't make any more money by making you lose to a straight (I was nice enough not to point out that you went broke with a pair on the 4th hand of a tourney). I simply asked you multiple times how FTP made more money by you losing that hand. You still have yet to answer me. If you want to personally attack me for not thinking a website is rigged against me thats fine. Just go see how many people are playing on FTP right now. I wonder who they agree with.


nitemare6
June 23, 2009
VA Poker

so just to understand your viewpoint --> you say FTP is giving a 'random' deal such that all the anecdotal stuff we/I see over and over and over again is mathematical, or whatever term you choose to use that is more 'technical' but does not proclaim the site is rigged?


what odds
June 21, 2009
Haven't posted here for a while, Denothor, I agree completely about your points.

As mentioned, I've been watching 90 player SNG's every now and then and what you see just isn't poker. Very often, you'll see a multi way all ins- something like TT vs AJ vs 44, the 4 will hit a set on the river and knock out both players- that would appear to be speeding up the tourney. My interest though is in cash games.

I've actually kept some money on FTP to try and build up a decent sample of NL5 6 max. To my sheer amazement, I am losing money almost everytime I play- getting close to 30,000 hands as well.

Now, at Cake poker, my NL10 stats, which is the next level up is +7.50BB/100 over 80,000 hands+

At the site I'm playing at now, I was running at +14bb/100 at NL10 over just under 50,000 hands before moving up to NL20.

So the fact that I'm ACTUALLY LOSING money at a lower level than NL10, I'm not even breaking even at FTP NL5, how is that possible? You can't argue that the play is that much tougher because the player's stats and hands they go all in with are incredible.

What is worse and what I've discussed already is that my all in EV is break even. So I'm not running bad in terms of all ins, but rather I am getting outdrawn and coolered at a ridiculous rate, and no amount of stats software can prove anything. So set over set- it happened to me twice in a row vs the very same player- the odds of that alone are lottery style odds. I'll flop a FH with 33 on TT3, I'll bet, player with AT calls and turns an ace. When the money goes in, I'm drawing to 1 out- so in theory I played it badly- but you can't just assume he had the AT...but on FTP, if a scare card lands, they have it almost all the time.

I'm playin exatly the same style, a strong TAG game making use of position and I'm losing money at NL5.

The only other site where I've played such a low level is Betfair's NL4 and I beat it for +30bb/100 over a 20,000 or so sample. Basically, this level sees people stacking off lightly almost all the time, they'll call with K8o and stack off on 8TA boards, on FTP, you'd get AA and the board would come K84 rainbow and you'd get stacked.

It just isn't real poker.


VA Poker
June 19, 2009
The original post by nitemare was claiming FTP is rigging tournaments to create more rake. I just think the fact that every single poker tournament I've ever played in, seen, or read about on FTP, Pokerstars or anywhere else has progressed and concluded based on the elevation of the blinds means its not very likely rigging a tournament for action would do that much. Like I already said, if no one gets knocked out early then everyone is short by level 8 or 9 and all the money is getting in reguardless. These people aren't coming on here saying Full Tilt theoretically might benifit from cheating, they are claiming that they know for a fact Full Tilt is cheating based on information that I am trying to point out makes very little sense. Whether or not it could theoretically possibly happen is kind of irrevelant to my point. I'm just saying it doesn't really make sense so therefore should not be used as so called proof a site is cheating. No one likes to be called a cheater and there is an unwritten rule in poker that if you call someone a cheater you better be 1000%sure. It's not something I believe should be thrown around lightly so I don't like it when people use horrible logic as so called proof. I know that wasn't your point at all but it was the point of the poster I was responding to originally.

Denethor
June 19, 2009
Ok. I wasn't really talking about what is or isn't going on at any site or what is or has been observed. It wouldn't be possible (or very smart) for me to try to dispute someone's obvservations and personal experiences.

I was just trying to explain the theoretical logic, as I understood it, behind the claim that a poker site could increase buy-ins by setting up big show-downs with increased frequency.

So, not saying it would be a good (or feasible) idea or a bad idea - just that I think that is what people mean when they say that a tournament could be "rigged for action" even when there is no per-hand rake involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
You are right about the AAvKK thing but thats kind of my point. The day you see the bubble burst in an MTT and the average BB/stack is like 70 (like it would be in situations not even as extreme as the AA KK thing)then it might seem to me like they are setting up too many coolers. But in reality you basically never see that, I literally never have one time playing internet poker. So in an extreme situation they could set up enough action hand coolers to make a tournament end prematurely before the blinds dictate but the fact remains, when do you ever see that? Every single poker tournament I have ever played in has progressed based on the levels of the blinds. Thats not to say its impossible for a tourney to be so set up that it ends prematurely I'm just saying I have never seen it on any site or live, ever.


VA Poker
June 19, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
I can't argue with any of the math, but it only seems to make sense that a tournament would be over a lot quicker if every hand at every table featured AA vs KK every time, for example. In that tournament, I don't see the blinds ever being a factor unless players were (or became) aware of the situation. A ninety player tournament would be over in no more than ninety hands - all of which would go very quickly because they would most likely be all-in pre-flop. Low buy-in tournaments would be over even quicker since so many players have a tendency to go all-in with just about anything. Obviously that whole example is completely over-the-top (some may not think so), but it is for illustrative purposes only.

One other issue that would come into player is the personality of the individual being knocked out prematurely by the "action hand". I suppose a lot of people would want to get right back in another tournament. I personally would be less likely to contribute more buy-ins after something like that. If I'm knocked out with some insane lucky draw or something, I normally just want to get away from it for a while rather than play another one right away.

So even if hands were being orchestrated to eliminate players more quickly, it would have the potential to backfire since some of those people (like me) would undoubtedly be frustrated enough to just walk away rather than immediately buy in to another tournament.

You are right about the AAvKK thing but thats kind of my point. The day you see the bubble burst in an MTT and the average BB/stack is like 70 (like it would be in situations not even as extreme as the AA KK thing)then it might seem to me like they are setting up too many coolers. But in reality you basically never see that, I literally never have one time playing internet poker. So in an extreme situation they could set up enough action hand coolers to make a tournament end prematurely before the blinds dictate but the fact remains, when do you ever see that? Every single poker tournament I have ever played in has progressed based on the levels of the blinds. Thats not to say its impossible for a tourney to be so set up that it ends prematurely I'm just saying I have never seen it on any site or live, ever.


Denethor
June 19, 2009
I can't argue with any of the math, but it seems (to me) like it would make sense that a tournament would be over a lot quicker if every hand at every table featured AA vs KK every time, for example. In that tournament, I don't see the blinds ever being a factor unless players were (or became) aware of the situation. A ninety player tournament would be over in no more than ninety hands spread over all the tables - at least one player would be eliminated from each table per hand. The hands would also go very quickly because they would most likely be all-in pre-flop. Low buy-in tournaments would be over even quicker since so many players have a tendency to go all-in with just about anything and multiple players would likely be eliminated each hand. Obviously that whole example is completely over-the-top (some may not think so), but it is for illustrative purposes only.

One other issue that would come into player is the personality of the individual being knocked out prematurely by the "action hand". I suppose a lot of people would want to get right back in another tournament. I personally would be less likely to contribute more buy-ins after something like that. If I'm knocked out with some insane lucky draw or something, I normally just want to get away from it for a while rather than play another one right away.

So even if hands were being orchestrated to eliminate players more quickly, it would have the potential to backfire since some of those people (like me) would undoubtedly be frustrated enough to just walk away rather than immediately buy in to another tournament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Blinds are still the greatest factor in determining tournament lengths. An action hand might eliminate some players early but it doesn't really matter. Look at any MTT past level 8, by then the blinds are so high in comparison to the average stack the money is getting in with or without action hands. The other thing to think about it this; lets say not one person gets coolered in a big action hand the first 2 hours of the tournament. The only thing that would change is that the average stack would be 10BB instead of 20BB. So you could have 100 guys with an average stack of 20BB or 200 guys with an average stack of 10BB. Would that tournament play out all that differently? You can take in even farther and say that if no one got eliminated in the first 2 hours it still wouldnt really matter. Because then the average stack would be 4BB's instead of 20, even though there might be 500 guys instead of 100 that tourney is still ending at roughly the same time. Basically if there were no coolers early on the stack sizes would be so small in comparison to the BB by the third hour you would have 2 players all in on every table every hand. Would those tournaments really last any longer?


VA Poker
June 19, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
It would seem like speeding up the levels would be the easiest way to increase the number of buy-ins. I think FTP already has the levels at only six minutes in a lot of the tournaments and even less in the turbos.

I still think the "action hands" would have potential to speed things along more than just the blind levels, though. I don't ever remember having to worry about blinding out on FTP - even with the accelerated levels. I never lasted that long, and I don't think my play was looser on FTP.

I guess probably the best way to summarize the logic is that the "action hands" would prevent tight players from causing the tournaments to drag on. A player who might protect his chips for hours with small pots and blind stealing could be eliminated instantly.
Blinds are still the greatest factor in determining tournament lengths. An action hand might eliminate some players early but it doesn't really matter. Look at any MTT past level 8, by then the blinds are so high in comparison to the average stack the money is getting in with or without action hands. The other thing to think about it this; lets say not one person gets coolered in a big action hand the first 2 hours of the tournament. The only thing that would change is that the average stack would be 10BB instead of 20BB. So you could have 100 guys with an average stack of 20BB or 200 guys with an average stack of 10BB. Would that tournament play out all that differently? You can take in even farther and say that if no one got eliminated in the first 2 hours it still wouldnt really matter. Because then the average stack would be 4BB's instead of 20, even though there might be 500 guys instead of 100 that tourney is still ending at roughly the same time. Basically if there were no coolers early on the stack sizes would be so small in comparison to the BB by the third hour you would have 2 players all in on every table every hand. Would those tournaments really last any longer?


nitemare6
June 18, 2009
PF I was 70/30

post flop I was 83/17

These "pros" (i.e. college or HS drop-outs who got lucky) running this site guys are scumbags.

I don't know why I even waste time on a dollar.

Guess I figure maybe the rig will help me to finish in top 3 places someday.

If that happened it would in no way change my opinion.


nitemare6
June 18, 2009
These are more true stories about Full RIGGED Tilt

tonight I just played in my $1 tournament:

SECOND HAND: (repeat 2nd hand)

I get 99s in late position. Guy raises 3x BB. Several donks call. I call adn don't raise.

Glop is 678 RAINBOW. Not much chance of a flush there or that I am -not leading - with my 9s.

BUT a guy bets ALL IN. A DONK I figure.

I call.

Guess what -- I made a great call - the guys has 8Js. A PAIR OF EIGHTS with three spades - backdoor.

BUT NOOooooo my hand is not go od with only 2 cards to go on FULL RIGGED!

Nope they can still deal him two running spades to flush him. AND guess what - the scum running the site sure enough had it set up to deal him a spade flush.

He had J8. I had pp - 99s

He won.

Now in a live game that might happen every few weks or a couple - three times.

But on this sick excuse for a real poker site -- that somehow manages to attract enough suckers to stay in business-- it is a all to common occurrence.

I would not give these cheats more than a $1...


Denethor
June 18, 2009
It would seem like speeding up the levels would be the easiest way to increase the number of buy-ins. I think FTP already has the levels at only six minutes in a lot of the tournaments and even less in the turbos.

I still think the "action hands" would have potential to speed things along more than just the blind levels, though. I don't ever remember having to worry about blinding out on FTP - even with the accelerated levels. I never lasted that long, and I don't think my play was looser on FTP.

I guess probably the best way to summarize the logic is that the "action hands" would prevent tight players from causing the tournaments to drag on. A player who might protect his chips for hours with small pots and blind stealing could be eliminated instantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Denethor, I see what you are saying about moving tournaments along faster with action hands but to me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Tournaments reach their conclusions in the time frame they do based on blinds. If the blinds are so high that the chip leader has 25BB and the average is 8BB then you are getting all ins every hand whether or not its AAvKK. Look at the tournaments you play, most of them probably reach the money and the conclusion at pretty much the exact same time every time. I know when I play MTT's with a 3k starting stack the money is almost always reached at the last half of the 10th level. So either every single tournament I play in has the same exact type of hands being given out or the levels of the blinds dictate when players bust. So if they wanted to make people bust faster and start more tourneys, changing to a 10 min level format from a 15 min format would be alot more effective than just giving out action hands.


VA Poker
June 18, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
VA Poker

WHY?

because almost certainly, the same flawed RNG is used whether it's a $1 tournament or low level cash games. I figured that was obvious to all.
I asked a very very simple question which you did not answer. How did FTP make more money because of your KK losing to a straight?

Denethor, I see what you are saying about moving tournaments along faster with action hands but to me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Tournaments reach their conclusions in the time frame they do based on blinds. If the blinds are so high that the chip leader has 25BB and the average is 8BB then you are getting all ins every hand whether or not its AAvKK. Look at the tournaments you play, most of them probably reach the money and the conclusion at pretty much the exact same time every time. I know when I play MTT's with a 3k starting stack the money is almost always reached at the last half of the 10th level. So either every single tournament I play in has the same exact type of hands being given out or the levels of the blinds dictate when players bust. So if they wanted to make people bust faster and start more tourneys, changing to a 10 min level format from a 15 min format would be alot more effective than just giving out action hands.


nitemare6
June 18, 2009
VA Poker

WHY?

because almost certainly, the same flawed RNG is used whether it's a $1 tournament or low level cash games. I figured that was obvious to all.


Denethor
June 18, 2009
At the risk of incurring the unholy wrath of whatodds, I think I can answer this one.

I think the argument when it comes to tournaments is that an online poker room would benefit from the action-inducing hands by encouraging players to risk their stacks against one another to speed things along. The sooner that individuals are eliminated from one tournament, the sooner they would register for another. The sooner one tournament is over, the sooner another could fill up and get underway.

If a tight player is in a tournament for three hours, there would only be one buy-in. If the same player is eliminated in the first fifteen minutes when he is dealt KK only to lose to someone else dealt AA (or someone getting the perfect cards on the board), he could pay twleve buy-ins in the same three hours.

So, theoretically, even though the poker room wouldn't be increasing their rake on individual hands by creating huge showdowns, they could (again, theoretically) increase their income from the buy-ins by keeping the tournaments shorter and having more of them running in the same amount of time.

Theoretically...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
You just claimed the hands were pre programmed to create more rake. You were playing in a one dollar tournament that might not even have a rake (I know some of those big micro tourneys dont have rakes sometimes). So either they got 10 cents from every player or nothing from every player. Either way, if you could please please explain to me how you losing that hand creates more rake for the site. You don't need to call me names or anything just please explain to me why you losing that hand made FTP any more rake? Or if any of the other people who swear its rigged know the answer, feel free to enlighten me.


VA Poker
June 18, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
so I play my bi-monthly $1 tournament on Full Rigged.
3rd hand -- dealt KK in late pos - raise 4xBB and get 3 callers.

Flop comes 235 rainbow

Player to my right goes AI, and I decide to call. Third player in pot also goes All In

Sure enough, full rigged tilt does it again. #1 has 105. I have pp Ks and #3 has FLOPPED A STRAIGHT. She called my PF raise with A4 o/s

Of course this is just the nature of poker. Isn't that what all the suckers and excuse-niks say about Full Rigged Tilt non-legitimate poker dealing.

No way - these hands are pre-programmed. It creates more rake. the same flawed RNG is used in a $1 tournament I suspect as in some cash games on Full Rigged.
You just claimed the hands were pre programmed to create more rake. You were playing in a one dollar tournament that might not even have a rake (I know some of those big micro tourneys dont have rakes sometimes). So either they got 10 cents from every player or nothing from every player. Either way, if you could please please explain to me how you losing that hand creates more rake for the site. You don't need to call me names or anything just please explain to me why you losing that hand made FTP any more rake? Or if any of the other people who swear its rigged know the answer, feel free to enlighten me.


eldave1
June 16, 2009
Wow - that is an ugly hand.

I think FullTilt is pretty unplayable, especially late in a tourney if you were somehow able to survive all the land mines earlier. When I get deep in a tourney on that site, the last foking thing I want is pocket Aces, Kings or Queens. I have folded pocket aces twice in the last month when there were two other folks all in - sure as shit, I would have lost both of them. KK I fold about half the time and never shove anymore. I lost KK deep in a tourney 6 times in a row - all to A rag. So now I just call and see what happens.

You can't play real poker on the site because - well - it is not real poker. More like Russion roulette. So I pretty much look at Full Tilt is a slot machine rather then a legit poker site.

enjoy


Danimal2000
June 15, 2009
Oh and I went all in cause I wanted this guy heads up and hed been raising me with 35 o

Danimal2000
June 15, 2009
So card dead for 2 bloody hours big stack shoving me around finally get a hand and this is what happens

Full Tilt Poker Game #12834136166: Daily Dollar Rebuy (95256405), Table 250 - 800/1600 Ante 200 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:09:58 ET - 2009/06/15
Seat 1: crossties (27,433)
Seat 2: KKARLITA (26,340)
Seat 3: le gros tib (213,706)
Seat 4: beginner28 (153,261)
Seat 5: Warrior Vince (56,156)
Seat 6: Danimal2000 (26,654)
Seat 7: toff76 (62,491)
Seat 8: davidbenyami (106,423)
Seat 9: davinadee (20,920)
crossties antes 200
KKARLITA antes 200
le gros tib antes 200
beginner28 antes 200
Warrior Vince antes 200
Danimal2000 antes 200
toff76 antes 200
davidbenyami antes 200
davinadee antes 200
davidbenyami posts the small blind of 800
davinadee posts the big blind of 1,600
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Danimal2000 [Ac As]
crossties folds
KKARLITA folds
le gros tib folds
beginner28 raises to 4,800
Warrior Vince folds
Danimal2000 raises to 26,454, and is all in
toff76 folds
davidbenyami has 15 seconds left to act
davidbenyami folds
davinadee folds
beginner28 calls 21,654
Danimal2000 shows [Ac As]
beginner28 shows [3s 3d]
*** FLOP *** [Jd 5h 9d]
*** TURN *** [Jd 5h 9d] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [Jd 5h 9d 2d] [Ad]
Danimal2000 shows three of a kind, Aces
beginner28 shows a flush, Ace high
beginner28 wins the pot (57,108) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 57,108 | Rake 0
Board: [Jd 5h 9d 2d Ad]
Seat 1: crossties folded before the Flop
Seat 2: KKARLITA folded before the Flop
Seat 3: le gros tib folded before the Flop
Seat 4: beginner28 showed [3s 3d] and won (57,108) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 5: Warrior Vince folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Danimal2000 showed [Ac As] and lost with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 7: toff76 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: davidbenyami (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: davinadee (big blind) folded before the Flop


nitemare6
June 13, 2009
so I play my bi-monthly $1 tournament on Full Rigged.
3rd hand -- dealt KK in late pos - raise 4xBB and get 3 callers.

Flop comes 235 rainbow

Player to my right goes AI, and I decide to call. Third player in pot also goes All In

Sure enough, full rigged tilt does it again. #1 has 105. I have pp Ks and #3 has FLOPPED A STRAIGHT. She called my PF raise with A4 o/s

Of course this is just the nature of poker. Isn't that what all the suckers and excuse-niks say about Full Rigged Tilt non-legitimate poker dealing.

No way - these hands are pre-programmed. It creates more rake. the same flawed RNG is used in a $1 tournament I suspect as in some cash games on Full Rigged.


Danimal2000
This is ridiculous and just 1 of many June 10, 2009
Full Tilt Poker Game #12734137941: $3 + $0.30 Knockout (94624055), Table 22 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:59:17 ET - 2009/06/10
Seat 1: xcaptmox (1,570)
Seat 2: Der 2te Sieger (1,340)
Seat 3: Danimal2000 (1,325)
Seat 4: cani81 (1,560)
Seat 5: wxtwiztidxc (1,425)
Seat 6: Maholeb (1,575)
Seat 7: sytten (1,425)
Seat 8: deftleft (1,390)
Seat 9: KeilerSWid (1,870)
xcaptmox posts the small blind of 20
Der 2te Sieger posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Danimal2000 [Ks Kd]
Danimal2000 has 15 seconds left to act
Danimal2000 raises to 160
cani81 has 15 seconds left to act
cani81 folds
wxtwiztidxc folds
Maholeb folds
sytten folds
deftleft folds
xcaptmox calls 140
Der 2te Sieger calls 120
*** FLOP *** [2s 8h 3h]
xcaptmox checks
Der 2te Sieger bets 280
Danimal2000 raises to 1,165, and is all in
xcaptmox raises to 1,410, and is all in
Der 2te Sieger calls 900, and is all in
xcaptmox shows [3c 3s]
Der 2te Sieger shows [6c 6d]
Danimal2000 shows [Ks Kd]
Uncalled bet of 230 returned to xcaptmox
*** TURN *** [2s 8h 3h] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [2s 8h 3h 6s] [8s]
xcaptmox shows a full house, Threes full of Eights
Der 2te Sieger shows a full house, Sixes full of Eights
Der 2te Sieger wins the side pot (30) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights
Danimal2000 shows two pair, Kings and Eights
Der 2te Sieger wins the main pot (3,975) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4,005 Main pot 3,975. Side pot 30. | Rake 0
Board: [2s 8h 3h 6s 8s]
Seat 1: xcaptmox (small blind) showed [3c 3s] and lost with a full house, Threes full of Eights
Seat 2: Der 2te Sieger (big blind) showed [6c 6d] and won (4,005) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights
Seat 3: Danimal2000 showed [Ks Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 4: cani81 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: wxtwiztidxc didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Maholeb didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: sytten didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: deftleft (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: KeilerSWid is sitting out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danimal2000 View Post

I was very glad to read the posts here cause I thought I was losing my mind. Im on FT for a week and Im up $1200 playing low stakes games. So I cash out and keep $500 for a bankroll.

Then complete craziness happens, Im a very patient player and careful as I know about the nuts online but I am shocked at how my all ins that are beat everytime even though I m way ahead. Of course I understand bad beats happen but everytime. The weird thing is its always a 10 LOL. Its so funny I just laugh cause I know its coming.

Im going to play out my bankroll and never go back again at least Ill have made some money.

Another funny story Im brand new at poker back in 04 never played didnt have a clue what I was doing. Put $20 in for a bankroll after playing with playmoney. So its my second tourney $1.00 entry something like 5000 players and Im very loose and inexperienced I mean Calling huge raises with any paint J5 off won me a huge pot against aa and kk. So I end up winning $800 finishing second. So now Im thinking hey if I read some books and applied myself I could perhaps do ok at this. So I read a few books and practice at low limit for hours and hours and do pretty good. So I cash out 2k and go on holidays.
Ive read the theories about cashing and then going on losing streaks but thought oh they just got greedy and misused their bankroll. So I get back from holidays and the insanity kicks in. Again I cannot win no matter how far ahead I am in my all ins, it happens everytime, so I contact support and say "How is this possible?".(this is stars bye the way). Supports very prompt and good their, and they admit yes you have had some brutal beats but it happens. Im like yeah it happens but when it happens 30 40 times theirs something wrong. (Im not kidding here). Im talking being ahead post flop and getting sucked out on the turn or river to guys ranked in the bottom %10 usually. Any ways I left poker stars for good. I play in casinos and do well and have been very successful in Vegas so I figured somethings up there and couldnt take the frustration.

But I missed playing poker at home and recently injured my back so Im stuck at home and thought Id give full tilt a whirl and well you know.

My question for you guys is Is their a poker site where you dont get clobbered by suck outs?

Please no comments on black helicopters or being a bad poker player I just want an honest site to play on.

Thanks Dan


HomePokerGames Admin
June 10, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Buck22,
I used to prefer live to online until I started multi tabling and realized you can make alot more money playing online.
I think some people underestimate the other advantages of online poker - such as the ability to choose juicy games. Game selection is one of the most important variables in long-term profitability.

Other advantages are the ability to calculate pot odds exactly and hand histories.


Danimal2000
June 5, 2009
I see a huge difference in cards and players. It seems the flops demand action.

VA Poker
June 5, 2009
Buck22,
That was a good question about live players running bad. Alot of people seem to think they run worse online than they do live and more freguently hit these downswings. I completely think both points are true but for different reasons than most posters here. In my own experience, I play 3 tables at a time when im playing cash games. That is close t0 300 hands an hour. If I put in a pretty hard day I can get2,000 hands in. If I played live it would take close to a week of 8 hour play to get that many hands in. Couple that with the fact that players online play alot looser than most live players. Some guys will make any move at any time, not worrying about being embarrassed because they are hidden behind a computer screen. So in one hour online you see almost 10x more hands and play with much looser players, in that one hour you should expect to see alot more beats than at an hour of live. As far as downswings go, I think online players are more susceptible to huge downswings. If you are playing on 3 tables, almost 5 hands a minute, your swings will come alot quicker. Losing 2-3 buy ins live doesn't happen easily, you either have to make some horrible plays or just get totally coolered. You might lose that much over the course of a bad night. If you are a multi table internet player you might lose two buy ins in the first 20 minutes. Then things start to fall apart and before you know it you're down 6 buy ins. Obviously upswings can come un just as fast. I used to prefer live to online until I started multi tabling and realized you can make alot more money playing online. That is why I don't like it when people act like they KNOW it's rigged or something. Internet poker has done alot for the poker world as a whole and it gives earning power to people all over the world who don't live near a casino.


what odds
June 5, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
Yeah im grinding pokerstar at mo, won $3.3k last month, my Roi's for 2 tournys were 75% and 65%. Just had the most epic down swing, losing $1k in $50&$70 incriments. In 4 days i had AA/KK cracked 5 times in a row, AJ vs A9 type confrontations were getting crushed and had flush under flush twice then trips under trips! I couldn't fathom this could happen in live games but my roi's for the 2 games i play are now 10% and 65%. Averaging these two figures out and it's round about where it should be.
Seems about every month, i get a downswing of around 10-15 buyins, can anyone who plays live single tables tell me if they get the same results?
Last two nights ive won the $1k back and totally put this down to bankroll management and not tilting, very different story last year.
I wanted to know, in relation to your live game succes, do you really see so much difference in the cards, or are the players different.
I don't have a choice in gambling establishments cos in england, our sites are sh*t, our poker in casino's is sh*t so im gonna just grind this out for a year and see what the results are.
$50 9 man SNG's?

I'd say 10-15 buy in swings are standard.

You could easily miss the cash in 20 SNG's no problem.

Tournament play can often rely on key coin flips going your way and that can only mean super high variance.

Live play is easier due to the fact you can only play one table at a time so people loosen up a lot and just tend to play a lot worse because the game is slower and people get bored much easier.


buck22
June 5, 2009
Yeah im grinding pokerstar at mo, won $3.3k last month, my Roi's for 2 tournys were 75% and 65%. Just had the most epic down swing, losing $1k in $50&$70 incriments. In 4 days i had AA/KK cracked 5 times in a row, AJ vs A9 type confrontations were getting crushed and had flush under flush twice then trips under trips! I couldn't fathom this could happen in live games but my roi's for the 2 games i play are now 10% and 65%. Averaging these two figures out and it's round about where it should be.
Seems about every month, i get a downswing of around 10-15 buyins, can anyone who plays live single tables tell me if they get the same results?
Last two nights ive won the $1k back and totally put this down to bankroll management and not tilting, very different story last year.
I wanted to know, in relation to your live game succes, do you really see so much difference in the cards, or are the players different.
I don't have a choice in gambling establishments cos in england, our sites are sh*t, our poker in casino's is sh*t so im gonna just grind this out for a year and see what the results are.


Danimal2000
June 5, 2009
I was very glad to read the posts here cause I thought I was losing my mind. Im on FT for a week and Im up $1200 playing low stakes games. So I cash out and keep $500 for a bankroll.

Then complete craziness happens, Im a very patient player and careful as I know about the nuts online but I am shocked at how my all ins that are beat everytime even though I m way ahead. Of course I understand bad beats happen but everytime. The weird thing is its always a 10 LOL. Its so funny I just laugh cause I know its coming.

Im going to play out my bankroll and never go back again at least Ill have made some money.

Another funny story Im brand new at poker back in 04 never played didnt have a clue what I was doing. Put $20 in for a bankroll after playing with playmoney. So its my second tourney $1.00 entry something like 5000 players and Im very loose and inexperienced I mean Calling huge raises with any paint J5 off won me a huge pot against aa and kk. So I end up winning $800 finishing second. So now Im thinking hey if I read some books and applied myself I could perhaps do ok at this. So I read a few books and practice at low limit for hours and hours and do pretty good. So I cash out 2k and go on holidays.
Ive read the theories about cashing and then going on losing streaks but thought oh they just got greedy and misused their bankroll. So I get back from holidays and the insanity kicks in. Again I cannot win no matter how far ahead I am in my all ins, it happens everytime, so I contact support and say "How is this possible?".(this is stars bye the way). Supports very prompt and good their, and they admit yes you have had some brutal beats but it happens. Im like yeah it happens but when it happens 30 40 times theirs something wrong. (Im not kidding here). Im talking being ahead post flop and getting sucked out on the turn or river to guys ranked in the bottom %10 usually. Any ways I left poker stars for good. I play in casinos and do well and have been very successful in Vegas so I figured somethings up there and couldnt take the frustration.

But I missed playing poker at home and recently injured my back so Im stuck at home and thought Id give full tilt a whirl and well you know.

My question for you guys is Is their a poker site where you dont get clobbered by suck outs?

Please no comments on black helicopters or being a bad poker player I just want an honest site to play on.

Thanks Dan


what odds
June 3, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
If pokerstars did alright by you, then why the hell you still playing fulltilt? Stars has 3 times the traffic, probably slightly worse players, min deposit $10, very quick customer service, same rake, you dont get raped of $10 just for withdrawing, and great player reward system whereas fulltilt has mass riggage!
I understand you want the truth to be known about this site, but why do you all keep playing there when theres a better site available?
I don't play FTP, haven't for months lol!

My more recent post was when I was just using up some players points I had forgotten about and managed to turn it into $63 only to lose it all in cash games to some sick BS within an hour :D

For players who trust the site but still keep losing despite playing a good game, I think they do need to try another site.

The problem is, FTP is otherwise easily the best site on the net- easy to use software, plenty of loose and juicy games, great cash bonus and WEEKLY dealt RB, that is a grinders wet dream!

The dealt RB was the reason I hung around so long as it fars outweighs PS VIP system for low stakes players...


eldave1
June 2, 2009
So - I thought I would play a higher stakes tourney to see if the play was any better or the action was any lessed juiced. I think not - the hands below are within a 20 minute period.

Hand one - the miracle two outer on the river screws pocket aces

Hand Two - the miracle runner runner screws pocket aces and rewards a really poor call

Hand Three- ME this time and based on the above I am scared to death. Get A-K on the button - small raise. Flop hits the Ks, 10h, 5h. Guy who called UTG bets 150, guy in cutoff calls, I pop to 500. Snap call, snap call. So I think - WTF - maybe one guy with KQ and one guy with two hearts and a draw.

NOW - I know you're thinking I gotta shove - but everyone at the table had been calling draws all the way down (i.e., no one folded regardless of what the odds were). Turn gave nothing to anybody. A little harmless 5 of diamonds. Checks to me and I bet another $500 figuring - WTF - if the flush comes I'm going to get paid. Call- Call.

River is a 5 of clubs - check, check to me. I'm thinking that this is got to be a great card for me. If someone had pocket 55 they would have bet by now. The flush was dead. No foking way someone has a single 5 in their hand. Fok it - I'll check assuming that this is FT afterall. Show of hands.

UTG had 9 of diamonds, 10 of diamonds. So this guy had middle pair, crappy kicker, wrong suit, but goes all the way to the river. Guy next to me had Jh, 5h. Missed his flush but hit runner, runner 5s. I lose. Thank God I went against my instinct and didn't bet the river at least. Have no foking idea why he didn't bet his set when he hit it.

I eventually went out of the tourney 30 minutes later - had pocket 99 - flopped a set. Got called by 88 who ended up four flushing me. SO - if you were wondering if it is any different at higher stakes - NO!

HAND 1
==============================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #12576696746: $15,000 KO Guarantee (93579966), Table 7 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:17:08 ET - 2009/06/02
Seat 1: Sharkfiction (2,515)
Seat 2: wick127 (3,195)
Seat 3: muruke (2,945)
Seat 4: TSF (2,970)
Seat 5: SoulCollector22 (2,275)
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 (3,860)
Seat 7: minniemomo (3,080)
Seat 8: twoblackaces (3,195)
Seat 9: eldave1 (3,235)
TSF posts the small blind of 15
SoulCollector22 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Tc Jh]
ACEKILLA07 calls 30
minniemomo raises to 90
twoblackaces folds
eldave1 has 15 seconds left to act
eldave1 folds
Sharkfiction folds
wick127 folds
muruke calls 90
TSF folds
SoulCollector22 folds
ACEKILLA07 calls 60
*** FLOP *** [7s 6d 3d]
ACEKILLA07 checks
minniemomo bets 180
muruke raises to 600
ACEKILLA07 folds
minniemomo calls 420
*** TURN *** [7s 6d 3d] [7c]
minniemomo checks
muruke checks
*** RIVER *** [7s 6d 3d 7c] [Ks]
minniemomo has 15 seconds left to act
minniemomo bets 420
muruke raises to 1,200
minniemomo calls 780
*** SHOW DOWN ***
muruke shows [Kh Kc] a full house, Kings full of Sevens
minniemomo mucks
muruke wins the pot (3,915) with a full house, Kings full of Sevens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,915 | Rake 0
Board: [7s 6d 3d 7c Ks]
Seat 1: Sharkfiction didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: wick127 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: muruke (button) showed [Kh Kc] and won (3,915) with a full house, Kings full of Sevens
Seat 4: TSF (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: SoulCollector22 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: minniemomo mucked [Ah Ad] - two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 8: twoblackaces didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: eldave1 didn't bet (folded)

HAND 2
===============================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #12576775632: $15,000 KO Guarantee (93579966), Table 7 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:24:02 ET - 2009/06/02
Seat 1: Sharkfiction (2,710)
Seat 2: wick127 (2,940)
Seat 4: TSF (3,165)
Seat 5: SoulCollector22 (2,110)
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 (3,560)
Seat 7: GilBunner (2,540)
Seat 8: twoblackaces (3,045)
Seat 9: eldave1 (3,325)
SoulCollector22 posts the small blind of 15
ACEKILLA07 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ad Qh]
GilBunner folds
__MarkFerrari__ sits down
__MarkFerrari__ adds 3,155
twoblackaces folds
eldave1 calls 30
Sharkfiction folds
wick127 folds
TSF calls 30
SoulCollector22 raises to 150
ACEKILLA07 calls 120
eldave1 calls 120
TSF folds
*** FLOP *** [9h 8s 2s]
SoulCollector22 has 15 seconds left to act
SoulCollector22 checks
ACEKILLA07 bets 480
eldave1 folds
SoulCollector22 has 15 seconds left to act
SoulCollector22 raises to 1,960, and is all in
ACEKILLA07 calls 1,480
SoulCollector22 shows [Ah Ac]
ACEKILLA07 shows [9s Qd]
*** TURN *** [9h 8s 2s] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [9h 8s 2s Ts] [Jd]
SoulCollector22 shows a pair of Aces
ACEKILLA07 shows a straight, Queen high
ACEKILLA07 wins the pot (4,400) with a straight, Queen high
SoulCollector22 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4,400 | Rake 0
Board: [9h 8s 2s Ts Jd]
Seat 1: Sharkfiction didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: wick127 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: TSF (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: SoulCollector22 (small blind) showed [Ah Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 (big blind) showed [9s Qd] and won (4,400) with a straight, Queen high
Seat 7: GilBunner didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: twoblackaces didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: eldave1 folded on the Flop



The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Kd Ac]
TSF folds
kgoule folds
ACEKILLA07 folds
GilBunner calls 50
twoblackaces folds
eldave1 raises to 125
Sharkfiction folds
wick127 folds
__MarkFerrari__ has 15 seconds left to act
__MarkFerrari__ calls 75
GilBunner calls 75
*** FLOP *** [Ks 2h Th]
__MarkFerrari__ checks
GilBunner bets 150
eldave1 raises to 500
__MarkFerrari__ calls 500
GilBunner calls 350
*** TURN *** [Ks 2h Th] [5d]
__MarkFerrari__ checks
GilBunner checks
eldave1 bets 500
__MarkFerrari__ has 15 seconds left to act
__MarkFerrari__ calls 500
GilBunner calls 500
*** RIVER *** [Ks 2h Th 5d] [5s]
__MarkFerrari__ checks
GilBunner checks
eldave1 checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
eldave1 shows [Kd Ac] two pair, Kings and Fives
__MarkFerrari__ mucks
GilBunner shows [Jh 5h] three of a kind, Fives
GilBunner wins the pot (3,400) with three of a kind, Fives
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,400 | Rake 0
Board: [Ks 2h Th 5d 5s]
Seat 1: Sharkfiction (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: wick127 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: __MarkFerrari__ (big blind) mucked [9d Td] - two pair, Tens and Fives
Seat 4: TSF didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: kgoule didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: GilBunner showed [Jh 5h] and won (3,400) with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 8: twoblackaces didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: eldave1 showed [Kd Ac] and lost with two pair, Kings and Fives


buck22
June 2, 2009
If pokerstars did alright by you, then why the hell you still playing fulltilt? Stars has 3 times the traffic, probably slightly worse players, min deposit $10, very quick customer service, same rake, you dont get raped of $10 just for withdrawing, and great player reward system whereas fulltilt has mass riggage!
I understand you want the truth to be known about this site, but why do you all keep playing there when theres a better site available?


what odds
June 1, 2009
Bucks, poker is a game of variance as I'm sure you well know.

Sometimes you will lose money in sucession, AA gets cracked by KK 3 times in a row, you run into bigger sets and take bad beats.

Every site I've played I've encountered downswings. It is part of the game and you have to deal with it. The difference is the frequency of these bad runs. They are supposed to be rare.

On FTP, these runs happen every couple of days, it is almost impossible to play optimal poker at times because the software teaches you to play bad poker- it makes you scared to bet when you are running bad because your opponent WILL always have the two diamonds for the flush, or that higher PP for the bigger set etc- and that is no way to be thinking about the game if you want to win.

I'd say the last 3 months, I've had 3 downswings, nothing major, took a 6 buy in swing, an 8 buy in swing and a 10,000 hand or so break even stretch.

I expect worse in the future at some point, but I am rolled to handle it and can keep trying to play good poker because I trust the site I play at offers a fair deal.

That just isn't the case at FTP. You could sit down at FTP and lose 10 buy ins within an hour and not made a single mistake- just with ridiculous set up hands that happen at a frequency that is nowhere near what you would expect in a fair game- set over set, flush over flush, set vs flush, KK vs AA, nut flush vs straight flush, then a couple of bad beats- no man on earth can play optimally when these runs are so common.

I didn't play PS for long, but I did encounter variance, but it was manageable and I played through it for a profit before moving on.

I told myself my runs on FTP were variance, it took a lot of money invested and lost before I actually realised this ain't real poker.


buck22
June 1, 2009
W'ell if that's true then stars is rigged too whatodds,(i don't perticularly believe this) Seeing lota similar sh*t over here. During May, playing only 4% of my bankroll, i ground $200 to $3300, the graph is ridiculous, but for the last 3 days, i have been brutalised beyond belief. Can't win a single hand whatever I have. AA and KK cracked 7 times IN A ROW, lost literally every single favourite hand ive been in, and in round about 18 games im down nearly $800, it's so gross, and certainly looks unnatural and rigged cos it all is happening in a row.
There's a high chance this just happens, and it looks soooo damn rigged but it's just sick variance. I mean every single site is accused of being rigged, maybe poker doesn't pay out at the rate you expect. Especially when you tilt, thats just burning money.
Personally, what ive seen on stars is no different from Fulltilt, same bullsh*t streaks of 20 buyin drops occasionally that come out the blue.
But f*** it, im up, whoohoo!


what odds
May 31, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
I keep good records, my 6seat games are awsome ROI's, cash and sng, heads up i just bleed chips, don't know why. I can't explain it with 5 years poker experience, just can't grind a profit even though ive probably played more heads up than any other game, so I refuse to play heads up.
My sharkscope results for all sites in the order i played them in 5 years,including my early sucker periods:
888 = +$1100
Party= +$400
VC = +$1700
Betfred= +$2500
Fulltilt= -$750
Pokerstars=+$3500

Again, I can't explain this difference. The players aren't that different from stars. Screw the individual hand historys that prove sod all, keep excellent records and avoid the losing games. Mine are heads up and playing on Fulltilt. If i ever play these I deserve to go broke.

Poker is a game of so many intricate factors that govern expected value that it's near impossible for someone to sit down in any game and say he has a definate edge. That's why so many people play it.A rigged site is just 1 of 100's of reasons for losing money.

The only concrete imformation about your games are your stats. Keep accurate records of every game you play then focus on your best profit

Keep it real
The thing with stats is they don't always support what you believe.

Over 250,000 hands of play on FTP, POKER EV shows my all in equity was actually bang on even.

So FTP doesn't rig it by you losing 50% of 80% equity hands.

It doesn't work like that. They'd be exposed too easily.

For me, and what I see, it is the action hands where you are put into spots where you will lose all you money- such as AA vs JJ, flop comes AAJ for instance, you flop a set and opponent makes flush on the turn, KK vs AA. Just way too often you hit runs where you are making hands that get you into trouble, such as 3 betting JJ, flop comes Jh 9h 3h and opponent holds Ah Kh- you'll be getting the money in bad so all in equity is irrelevant.

But when the bad beats do happen, they seem to come all at once and most of my losses at FTP came from tilting, and I believe the site is designed to tilt the tighter players- how many 2 outer and 3 outer beats could you take before your play begins to decline?

Cransley says-

'But at Full Tilt, when I went all-in, yes I was ahead most of the time, my reads were correct, but I just could not win. The magic suck-out-card would drop in on the river, virtually EVERY SINGLE TIME'

That just simply is not true because the equity WILL even out over time, the FTP programmers make sure of that.

It is the higher % of cooler hands and the streaks of increbile beats that all seem to come at once- that is where the rigging lies.


nitemare6
May 30, 2009
Cransley...

LOL

I just returned to law (after being a professional equity and index options trader for 10 years), I am handling one case where I am getting paid (assuimng client pays) about $200 per hour. I'd rather play poker that put up with neurotic CEOs anyday.

By the way, what does a professional options trader know about math, statistics, edge, odds, probablities? Not much apparently since on F-R-T it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Glad to hear a seemingly intelligent and experienced poker player agreeing what I unfortunately found out a few years ago, after I ahd $10,000 on the site (luckily I only lost about 800) that this site is fixed (i.e. non-random)... at least at the lower levels of play, and tournies. Rigged doesn't mean cheating because someone is winning on rigged hands; it just means that they (the greedy scum running the site) defeat the edge that presumably guys like me and you and VA et al. would have against newbies and other reckless or unsophisticated or non-shrewd players.

On F-R-T understanding odds (IMO) and the other nuances of poker usually means less than it should except maybe on 20/50 and 50/100 tables.

The irony of Full Rigged Tilt for me is, they have the greatest software and "feel" to the site, btu it is just no fun to think every fkign time you play the hand really well, build a pot, check-bet, pplay well out of position and use other winning strategies... you still suffer defeat because of the greed-programming that allows 12-18% shots to hit 50% of the time so that their rakes are higher.

Good luck mate... or is it bloke.


Cransley69
May 30, 2009
Spot on Buck22

I played at the Bicycle Casino for 5 years, and other than chatting up the cocktail waitresses (successfully - imagine the English guy in Love Actually, in the bar in Wisconsin scene ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIXHcOjJpxY) , and playing decent, profitable poker, the one thing I did after every session was to keep a very accurate spreadsheet, showing what was, in effect, a profit & loss account, including number of hours invested, level played, and notable hands.

After 5 years, playing probably 4 nights a week on average, I knew I was not fluking it. My plays were solid, and my edge came from aggressive play in position, winning a lot of hands with weaker holdings. In one six-month period, playing at the top of my game, I averaged $154 an hour playing $3 & $5 blinds...many attorneys would be happy with that rate. I averaged $35,000 each year I was there, then when I returned to the UK started playing on Full Tilt, and literally COULD NOT WIN.

What astonished me most was the difference in All-in situations. When I go all-in, I do so in the knowledge - correct most of the time - that I am ahead. I'm looking for calls, and when I get them, most times they pay out.

But at Full Tilt, when I went all-in, yes I was ahead most of the time, my reads were correct, but I just could not win. The magic suck-out-card would drop in on the river, virtually EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Looking back I feel stupid for believing the site was fair for so long. I felt I was just running bad, that this was natural variance, and that I would come good, but it never happened. Finally the penny dropped and I found this site and realised that my experiences are shared by many, who are probably good players too. Even VA Poker, who I was very rude to ( I called him a 100% complete arse), has lost all his money on FTP, and he supports the site! (sorry VA).

Keeping accurate records, over a long period of time, will tell you where you are with your game. In order to win money at poker, you just need to be better-than-average-plus-the-rake. I was at the Bike, but not at FTP. It was that knowledge; that certainty, derived from several years playing the same way, keeping those records, that made me realise that I wasn't doing anything different.

It was the game that had changed.

I am 100% certain that FTP is rigged. The cards are not dealt randomly and suck-outs happen far too often. I'm just disappointed that it took me so long to realise it.

Good luck all.

Crans


buck22
May 30, 2009
I keep good records, my 6seat games are awsome ROI's, cash and sng, heads up i just bleed chips, don't know why. I can't explain it with 5 years poker experience, just can't grind a profit even though ive probably played more heads up than any other game, so I refuse to play heads up.
My sharkscope results for all sites in the order i played them in 5 years,including my early sucker periods:
888 = +$1100
Party= +$400
VC = +$1700
Betfred= +$2500
Fulltilt= -$750
Pokerstars=+$3500

Again, I can't explain this difference. The players aren't that different from stars. Screw the individual hand historys that prove sod all, keep excellent records and avoid the losing games. Mine are heads up and playing on Fulltilt. If i ever play these I deserve to go broke.

Poker is a game of so many intricate factors that govern expected value that it's near impossible for someone to sit down in any game and say he has a definate edge. That's why so many people play it.A rigged site is just 1 of 100's of reasons for losing money.

The only concrete imformation about your games are your stats. Keep accurate records of every game you play then focus on your best profit

Keep it real


what odds
May 30, 2009
I doubt I'll be putting money on FTP in the near future VA ;)

GL on achieving SuperNova and beyond!


VA Poker
May 30, 2009
nitemare,
Thank you for all of your kind words. I would reciprocate but personally attacking people online isn't really my thing. The only reason why I stated the dollar amount of your game in my post is that you acted like the guy should have folded top pair and an open ender. I then responded by saying in a one dollar game, no one will ever fold that. I know about pride and competition and doing your best. I've always told my children that I don't care what they chose to do when they grow up just as long as they take pride in their work an do it to the best of their ability. The reason why the one dollar thing was relevant is that the skill level in a one dollar game is usually very low. Thats just a fact. People who are playing one dollar games usually aren't that good therefore they often make plays you might find questionable. I was not at all trying to say that one shouldn't try in a one dollar game or it doesn't matter or anything like that. I would try just as hard in a play money game as any other game. I also was not trying to degrade you for playing in the game, I would never do that. It was simply relevant because of the level of play in the one dollar games. I wasn't trying to say your opponent shouldn't have cared because its just a dollar I was just saying he might not be at a very high skill level because of the stakes he's playing.


whatodds, to your last question to me... I'm a gold star on PS right now, far from a Supernova but maybe by the end of this year. Also, I have no money in my FT account right now but plenty in my stars so if you ever find yourself with some cash in your FT I'll be glad to make a transfer trade with you.


what odds
May 30, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
WHAT ODDS

Read My Lips:

FULL TILT IS RIGGED. Don't you get it yet. It is not a random deal. There are pre-programmed algoriuhms.

Sure, some times guys fold and you have conservative players who do not stay in the hand and thus defeat the FT rigging system. That results in some realistic play.

But for the majority of hands they are set up for higher RAKES.

Get it.

Don't play on FTP for more than a few dollars...

...........and only play on a day when you don't mind be aggravated to death!
:rolleyes:

I believe my time in this forum has been TRULY wasted.

How can you seriously post that in my direction, HAVE you even bothered to read what I have discussed?

I'm actually insulted LOL


nitemare6
May 29, 2009
algorythms

nitemare6
May 29, 2009
WHAT ODDS

Read My Lips:

FULL TILT IS RIGGED. Don't you get it yet. It is not a random deal. There are pre-programmed algoriuhms.

Sure, some times guys fold and you have conservative players who do not stay in the hand and thus defeat the FT rigging system. That results in some realistic play.

But for the majority of hands they are set up for higher RAKES.

Get it.

Don't play on FTP for more than a few dollars...

...........and only play on a day when you don't mind be aggravated to death!


nitemare6
May 29, 2009
The guy hit a 7 on the river to give him a full rigged tilt straight. So the set of 3s were busted by a 18% probability after the turn.

As far as losers who talk about the dollar amount of a given game or poker tournament as having any bearing on whether a poker site is rigged AND/OR whether people should still play the game to win correctly... I have had this discussion/argument ad nauseum with losers like that, for many years. So here is my take (for the losers out their who have such low standards in their own sorry lives that they project it on to others):

when we are young and also when we become adults we compete in games of all kinds. Some play oglf, some basketball or tennis or ping pong or board games or video games or bowling etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Now, most of the time there is not much on the line. Not much money bet. Sometimes you just play well and hard for simple reasons: Pride, comeptition, the challenge of doing well etc.etc.

This is instailled in winning human beings who are rational, funtional and have self-worth.

Now if I had a dollar for every time guys with apparently low standards like VA Poker said the same old worn-out, loser platitude

"it's only a dollar what's the big deal... why play with skill, who cares if you play well, it's ony a small tournie?"........... I would have 1000 xtra dollars in my pocket right now.

But I was raised to have honorable pride, make a difference and try to do your best all the time.

But still guys like VA Poker continue to spit out the nauseating theory that: "you only try to do well and compete well and play well when there is A LOT of money on the line"

Well sorry that guys like him have such low values and standards.

When I play in a $1 tournament I play to win. When I play in a $10,000 tournament I play to win. Most winners do that in life. They compete to win and give their best. That doesn;t mean you are as motivated in a $1 as in a $10,000 tournament; but to me it means you still compete and play like a winner.

Besidees how the F do you get better if you practice like crap and then expect to play really well in a big tournament or game.

What a joke that guys like VA Poker are so unsophisticated that they don't get it yet. Maybe he's young, or if not, maybe he never learned these higher standards or developed enough personal pride.

If you play a pick-up basketball game or a golf match with friends this weekend, for NO money, tell me.... do you nto still try to play your best. DUH

BOTTOM LINE: you can't compete and play well on a RIGGED poker site!

FIN


what odds
May 29, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
whatodds,
lol @ your post, I'll reply anyway. The reason I haven't replied to anything you said recently is that even though we disagree your points are IMO fair for the most part. I'm not conceding to you that FTP is rigged but your arguments make sense and don't seem to be out of pure bitterness. However, when someone says the FEDS should investigate or someone complains that a player in a ONE DOLLAR game wouldnt lay down top pair and an open ender I just can't help myself. I play 30-50 dollar sng's and there aren't too many people there laying down top pair with an open ender. BTW I was knocked out 3 times in a row a couple days ago by rivered straights after the money was in on the turn and that was on Stars. I don't have an issue with everyone who disagrees with me but the people who complain purely on their own hand history and say its rigged because they won elsewhere and don't win there tend to get a response out of me. It seems like you'd have an even bigger problem with them as they tend to make your argument look weak.
Fair enough and I agree, people posting single hand histories and moaning just scream losing player blaming the site being rigged.

I logged onto FTP today because I was going to make a video in regards to my observations of the 90 player SNG's but I noticed I still had a few thousand points left I hadn't used and also some medals- had forgotten all about them!

I bought some $26 tokens and manged to win a couple as well, with those I ended up with a nice $63 as I finished 2nd in 3 4 player SNG's.

So I loaded up a few NL5 tables to see how the games were and proceeded to lose 7 buy ins :D

I know I'll never convince you but I just think this site is outrageous!!

I lost 7 buy ins within 409 hands...just a few of them, flopped set of 8's on board of J84. Player with QT raises my c-bet all in, I call and turn is the 9...

OK nice all in to start with.

KQ open on the button, flop comes Q64. He check calls my c-bet, turn is K. So top two pair, he check calls again. River is 9. He goes all in, I can't just put him on JT and fold given the pot is double my stack size, I call and he had a set of 6's...

Very next hand, TT, same player calls my raise from the SB. Flop is 254. I bet and he calls. Turn is 9. I check and he bets, I shove over and he had flopped a set of twos...man this is NL5 and same guy flops a set twice in a row on me...

I then get 33 on the button. UTG opens and a caller, I call and flop is TT3. When you see this type of hand you rub your hands and smile but not always the case with FTP- UTG c-bets, call, and I pot it. UTG calls, one fold. Turn is ace. He bets all in and I call what is left of my stack, he only shows AT...

QQ all in vs JJ, flops the set...

Rest of the losses where just from failed c-bets and running into hands and being forced to fold etc...

So 409 hands in and I'm just over 7 buy ins down...at NL5...:confused:

In the past I'd say damn variance is a bitch but now I know this site is BS.

With the $27 or so left I open up a full ring PLO game at PLO50.

Limp with KQJT (very first hand I get an extremely coordinated hand) and one player min raises. I call to see the flop.

Flop is JT4 rainbow. Player bets and I obviously raise, he 4bets and we're all in, he has AAXX, turn is a blank and the river comes another 4 to give him better two pair...

These hands prove nothing, but what are the odds for me to come back to the site for the first time since January and run into such variance?

I know I'll never convince you but I am convinced anyway. It was actually quite amusing seeing the hands play out because I can literally feel the difference in this site having played elsewhere for a few months. If the hands were random, how could that be the case?

BTW, are you SuperNova on PS? $30 SNG's must earn you some VPP's each month!


VA Poker
May 29, 2009
whatodds,
lol @ your post, I'll reply anyway. The reason I haven't replied to anything you said recently is that even though we disagree your points are IMO fair for the most part. I'm not conceding to you that FTP is rigged but your arguments make sense and don't seem to be out of pure bitterness. However, when someone says the FEDS should investigate or someone complains that a player in a ONE DOLLAR game wouldnt lay down top pair and an open ender I just can't help myself. I play 30-50 dollar sng's and there aren't too many people there laying down top pair with an open ender. BTW I was knocked out 3 times in a row a couple days ago by rivered straights after the money was in on the turn and that was on Stars. I don't have an issue with everyone who disagrees with me but the people who complain purely on their own hand history and say its rigged because they won elsewhere and don't win there tend to get a response out of me. It seems like you'd have an even bigger problem with them as they tend to make your argument look weak.


what odds
May 29, 2009
Actually though, don't reply, I've posted all I can on this thread now.

I'm sick of posting here LOL


what odds
May 29, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
You think it's weird for a player to go all in with top pair and a open ender in a ONE DOLLAR tournament? He would have called even if he didn't hit the 10. IT'S A DOLLAR, whats your sn on fulltilt? I'll gladly transfer you the dollar. Maybe you guys are just noble martyrs who are simply posting here to stop others from playing on the evil empire that is full tilt. I have to say though, posting a bad beat story about a one dollar tournament (or any tournament) makes you look pathetic. Also, about the whole finishing the post tomorrow thing, do you really think there is a bunch of people out there who read your post and just can't wait to here the end of the story about how you got beat out of a dollar? lol you can't be serious.
I like the way you avoid all my posts and just respond to the players who are easy to come back at...such as those who post a HH and moan about it.

I'm putting up convincing hands and discussion and you ain't replied to me in two pages worth.


VA Poker
May 29, 2009
You think it's weird for a player to go all in with top pair and a open ender in a ONE DOLLAR tournament? He would have called even if he didn't hit the 10. IT'S A DOLLAR, whats your sn on fulltilt? I'll gladly transfer you the dollar. Maybe you guys are just noble martyrs who are simply posting here to stop others from playing on the evil empire that is full tilt. I have to say though, posting a bad beat story about a one dollar tournament (or any tournament) makes you look pathetic. Also, about the whole finishing the post tomorrow thing, do you really think there is a bunch of people out there who read your post and just can't wait to here the end of the story about how you got beat out of a dollar? lol you can't be serious.

nitemare6
May 28, 2009
In case any of you OBC decide to try again playing on this phony scam site. Her is an event from tonight.

I have not played on FTP for a month or more. Even then I only play a small tournament like $1 and no more than $10

Tongiht I sit down UTG. Fold 2 hands. Third hand... REPEAT ---> THIRD third hand

I get PP 3s. I limp in with about 5-6 other players. Pot 210.

Flop comes 356. I bet 90 and get three calls. Pot at 570.

Turn comes 10. I over-bet 700 hoping some clown with a 10 calls me.

All fold but one player who goes A/I. I call about 470.

He shows 10-4!! A fucking pair of tens and a open end str8 sraw, and goes all in. Real swift playing on the 3rd hand of a tournament.

----> Anyone want to guess what the river card was on Full RIGGED TilT ? (nevermind I was a 5/1 favorite).

Guess the card. I will post tomorrow.

Yes........... this was a $1 tournament. But the point is: DON'T PLAY ON FTP.

What fun is it to play with a rigged deck. no matter what you do they have it stacked against good players in tournaments in particular. I am absolutely amazed how many suckers and fools and stupid or obsessed peopel there are in the world who cannot think for themselves, and continue to rationalize or delude themselves that this kind of CR-AP "dealing" is real poker.

Find other sites or play live. Save yourslef the stress.

There is not a single time I go on this scam site (which I do rarely) that soemthing like I mentioned above (if you can guess the card) happens.

ALL THE F-KING TIME!


what odds
May 28, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Cransley,
You think the "Feds" should investigate FTP. If you are referring to the United States Federal Government you are insane. Don't you know it is illegal for anyone in the US to play internet poker for real money? Thats like saying the "Feds" should investigate your local bookie because he isn't giving you the Vegas odds on Lakers/Nuggets game. If the "Feds" ever get around to investigating FTP it won't be because they aren't giving the right odds it will be because it is illegally servicing US players.


What do you guys really think you are going to accomplish by all of this? Honestly? FTP is worth billions and they operate a business that doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of any particular government or even a governing body of poker, which of course does not exist. If you guys think its rigged just don't play, when you are gambling in a semi illegal manner you can't exactly go cry to the BBB. If there was a local card game in your town and you thought something shady was going on there would you call the cops to investigate or would you just not play there anymore?
I can only speak for myself when I say I don't play there but that isn't really the point of my posts. My purpose is to let people who are looking to get into poker that there is something wrong with FTP's RNG. I think it is only fair for the online poker community to be brought aware of the blatant BS FTP offers.

For the gambling players who play bad, they prefer this site because they can last longer.

But for any hard working players such as myself, it took me almost 8 months of losing money to finally 'accept' something was up and it couldn't possibly be just variance and my own tilt at times that was seeing me lose money month in and month out.

Players join websites believing they will get a fair game. FTP promises a fair game to players and people sign up believing them, why would they rig it after all hey? Site offers weekly DEALT RB which is cool, it looks like a nice site, great place to make a deposit.

When they take a few bad beats and more importantly action based cooler hands where both players are set up to go all in- (both players are forced into spots where they are both happy to stack off, AKA action hands) they may post on a poker forum and people tell them 'it it is just variance, play through and the results will come blah blah blah'.

Perhaps the only way to learn anything in this world is through personal experience, but that shouldn't stop me coming on here and telling people FTP does not offer a fair deal. I've won money at every site I've ever played, I've played hundreds of thousands of hands at plenty of online poker sites and I can tell you for what I know FTP is rigged for action and hideous cooler hands, all designed to keep the rake at maximum generation and also to keep the bad players interested.

Before depositing on this site, I recommend following my advice, download the software and open 4 tables of a 90 player SNG...just watch the hands as they unfold, it is blatant rigged action...


Cransley69
May 27, 2009
VA poker

Since I live in England there is nothing 'semi-illegal', as you put it, about me playing online.

If there was a massive scam going on, at the heart of which were several US citizens, many of the victims of which were also US citizens, I would have thought the feds would be interested, irrespective of the legality or otherwise of the activity.

As to your other suggestion - to stop playing there - I have done. Thank you.


VA Poker
May 27, 2009
Cransley,
You think the "Feds" should investigate FTP. If you are referring to the United States Federal Government you are insane. Don't you know it is illegal for anyone in the US to play internet poker for real money? Thats like saying the "Feds" should investigate your local bookie because he isn't giving you the Vegas odds on Lakers/Nuggets game. If the "Feds" ever get around to investigating FTP it won't be because they aren't giving the right odds it will be because it is illegally servicing US players.


What do you guys really think you are going to accomplish by all of this? Honestly? FTP is worth billions and they operate a business that doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of any particular government or even a governing body of poker, which of course does not exist. If you guys think its rigged just don't play, when you are gambling in a semi illegal manner you can't exactly go cry to the BBB. If there was a local card game in your town and you thought something shady was going on there would you call the cops to investigate or would you just not play there anymore?


what odds
May 27, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
sorry whatodds, got to about 30 hands recorded and theres about 4 bad beats so far, same thing happened last time i did my 150 hand sample, sort of see a bigger picture when u see all the all ins in a row, seems pretty cosur to me, give it a go urself
So from 30 all ins you only saw 4 bad beats? That is interesting Bucks.

How many of those were coin flips?

For me, when I watch it, you see the all in and you just know at times that you're about to see an action hand. It is very difficult for me to explain.

But what I will say is, FTP aren't idiots, they aren't going to let bad beats happen all the the time- so actual all in odds may even out over time, my PokerEV graph confirms that, but let's just go back to my TT vs A9 vs 44 example because that is where the rigging lies on closer inspection-

Pre flop, we have 3 hands going all in.

The odds are as follows-

TT= 57%

A9= 23%

44= 19%

So this is really close to a coin flip for TT 3 way- he has to avoid a fair few cards to hold up.

So statistically and in FTP's interest TT losing here is irrelevant to going to prove anything as it was only 57% to win.

But, look at the flop how it came down. 9Q7.

TT still ahead, but the A9 has now picked up two extra outs.

Turn= A. A9 takes the lead. Dramatic hand now, TT now needs a ten to win.

River= 4. The deepest stacked player hits the set and eliminates both players.

Alone, it proves nothing, but just watch the all ins, the action hands- they keep the excitement up and also I'd say so from what what I've seen, it is the 2-3 outer hands that hit way more than they should over time.

I'm going to make a video anyway so I'll keep you updated if I put it onto the net.


Cransley69
What a relief...I'm not going mad after all May 26, 2009
Played for 6 hours today at Titan Poker. Bought in for $50 with .50 and $1 blinds. Played solid, aggressive poker, exactly as I have always tried at FTP and how I used to play at the Bike. What a difference!

It felt like 'Real' poker, with my hands and other peoples playing out pretty much as they should with just the occasional suck-out. Such a relief to find out that I am not going mad - that you can actually win online.

When I think of the months and months at FTP, playing a game of 'chip-attrition', where every all-in move was met with an outrageous suckout; where my thoughts were "this has to end soon, turn around in my favour" - but never did. I now know from this site that I was not alone - that somewhere along the line I was being had (as other people have been too.)

When are the Feds going to latch onto this and investigate it?

Good Riddance FTP. I won $404 today which is something I could never do at your site. Glad to be out of there, and never going back.

Good luck at the tables all.

Crans


buck22
May 26, 2009
sorry whatodds, got to about 30 hands recorded and theres about 4 bad beats so far, same thing happened last time i did my 150 hand sample, sort of see a bigger picture when u see all the all ins in a row, seems pretty cosur to me, give it a go urself

buck22
May 26, 2009
Ok whatodds, i'll record 200 random all ins and put it in my next post

what odds
May 26, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
I agree that recording hands as they play out could throw up some dodgy results, but it would take a hell of a long time. You would need to record:
a)hand number
b)table number
c)flop,turn,river precise cards
d)what street the money went all in
e)precise odds of outs
f)out come

This would need to be done over a minimum of 100,000 RANDOM hands without error. I tried this for 100 hands and it took me 3 hrs to record it, and 3 hrs painstakingly calculating odds for each hand. So basically, it comes down to who wants to stare at a screen for 1000hrs keeping precise records to prove that a site is rigged when there is the overwhelming possibility that it's not and that you've just infact wasted a year of your life for f*** all.
If you could round up 100 willing participants, how do you know the other 99 aren't misrecording stats, you'd need to be 100% sure your sh** is accurate.
I reckon the only way to do it is for someone to write a program that can record the desired stats from the poker site and leave it running, otherwise its too time consuming and innaccurate.

Also, if any old dumbass with a spare year can prove a gambling site is rigged, don't you think a multi-billion dollar company would cover their tracks a little better e.g. maybe balancing the badbeats with unusual good stretches to avoid detection from a paranoid with a pencil and pad.

I don't mean to be negative about this plan but if it was that easy to expose a poker site, someone with the computer programming know-how would've already done it, especially if 2 whining gamblers like us have both tried it. Either find a dedicated, out of work system programmer or switch to pokerstars and be done with it.
Fair points, but this is looking at 'all in' hands. 200 all in hands would be enough to get a fairly accurate picture.

My experiment was more for the people who claim FTP is not rigged and is fair. I just want them to do as I asked and come on here and honestly say they think what they saw was a genuine random deal.

I'm actually thinking of using a recorder and making a video for people to watch because it simply is not random.

I want them to open up 4 tables of a 90 player SNG and just record every all in they see for those tables- hol cards and board at time of all in and then fill in what came down.

Don't need to record odds and time etc. It is just more for getting a general idea of the hands FTP plays out- such as the TT vs A9 vs 44 hand where the board came 9Q7 A 4...that is an extremely rare hand yet through the space of just a 90 player SNG, you will see multiple BS hands.

I can guarantee if you sit through on of these tourneys- takes about an hour- 1.5 hours to complete and monitor just the all in hands, you will have seen enough to be convinced the site is not offering a random deal.

Of course, we can't actually prove anything for certain, as each hand is a different hand and bad beats and action hands happen in succession, but common sense can prevail.

For all in hands, say you looked at 50 hands where the underdog had 3 outs on the flop and went all in. So he will hit about 12% of the time. Even 50 hands would be enough to spot something suspect if the 3 outer hit somewher like 30% or more over that sample.

Anyway, all you have to do is watch the all in hands, don't even need to record them, just watch them and use your own common sense as to if you honestly believe what you are watching is genuine poker...


buck22
May 25, 2009
I agree that recording hands as they play out could throw up some dodgy results, but it would take a hell of a long time. You would need to record:
a)hand number
b)table number
c)flop,turn,river precise cards
d)what street the money went all in
e)precise odds of outs
f)out come

This would need to be done over a minimum of 100,000 RANDOM hands without error. I tried this for 100 hands and it took me 3 hrs to record it, and 3 hrs painstakingly calculating odds for each hand. So basically, it comes down to who wants to stare at a screen for 1000hrs keeping precise records to prove that a site is rigged when there is the overwhelming possibility that it's not and that you've just infact wasted a year of your life for f*** all.
If you could round up 100 willing participants, how do you know the other 99 aren't misrecording stats, you'd need to be 100% sure your sh** is accurate.
I reckon the only way to do it is for someone to write a program that can record the desired stats from the poker site and leave it running, otherwise its too time consuming and innaccurate.

Also, if any old dumbass with a spare year can prove a gambling site is rigged, don't you think a multi-billion dollar company would cover their tracks a little better e.g. maybe balancing the badbeats with unusual good stretches to avoid detection from a paranoid with a pencil and pad.

I don't mean to be negative about this plan but if it was that easy to expose a poker site, someone with the computer programming know-how would've already done it, especially if 2 whining gamblers like us have both tried it. Either find a dedicated, out of work system programmer or switch to pokerstars and be done with it.


what odds
May 25, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
I have removed the text of all of my posts which you believe are detracting from the thread. If you want them gone entirely so as not to "undermine the entire thread", you will need to remove the text from your replies, as well.

I have to say that I see some irony and hypocrisy in your posts. You declare with absolute certainty that FTP is actively and intentionally "rigged", but then declare with equal certainty that other sites are beyond reproach. I specifically said I was not accusing PS of being rigged but simply said something didn't seem right lately.

You didn't stop there, though, and further went on to describe me as a "losing player[s] who [hasn't] got a clue about poker and [is] blaming a site being rigged for their losses". When I was complaining about FTP instead, you were defending me as a victim. You're entitled to your opinion on both FTP and PS and my abilities (all of which are likely correct), but don't pretend that you are just "trying to help me" and then use such terms to describe me.
You sound like a little kid LOL! It isn't anything personal. You've got a lot of potential given how much effort you seem to put into wanting to improve. I've said about 3 times there is a site called 2+2 where there are excellent strategy forums that can help you on your way to playing better poker. This isn't the place to be posting though.

This is a thread about FTP being rigged, you've posted saying you believe it to be the case- but then if you are posting these basic strategy questions, surely you can see that just makes it look like a losing player is blaming a site being rigged to defend their bad play? Which does undermine the thread as my following post has aldready been overlooked- all it takes is a few people to follow thw advice in that thread and we could expose FTP for good but no one seems interested in actually proving anything.

I'm actually past caring now, if people want to play there, then so be it. I've tried to warn them.

Also, I said 'in my opinion' that other sites seem OK- I've played a lot of online poker and FTP is the only site I would say is blatantly rigged. It wouldn't suprise me if all sites were juiced up a bit but I'm not qualified to comment there- from what I've personally seen, the other sites, such as PS, seem to offer a fair enough RNG deal.

FTP does not.


Denethor
May 25, 2009
I have removed the text of all of my posts which you believe are detracting from the thread. If you want them gone entirely so as not to "undermine the entire thread", you will need to remove the text from your replies, as well.

I have to say that I see some irony and hypocrisy in your posts. You declare with absolute certainty that FTP is actively and intentionally "rigged", but then declare with equal certainty that other sites are beyond reproach. I specifically said I was not accusing PS of being rigged but simply said something didn't seem right lately.

You didn't stop there, though, and further went on to describe me as a "losing player[s] who [hasn't] got a clue about poker and [is] blaming a site being rigged for their losses". When I was complaining about FTP instead, you were defending me as a victim. You're entitled to your opinion on both FTP and PS and my abilities (all of which are likely correct), but don't pretend that you are just "trying to help me" and then use such terms to describe me.


what odds
May 25, 2009
All the hard work in trying to expose FTP is going to waste here with these posts about his play- it isn't a strategy forum, there are however plenty of those at 2+2...this thread is about FTP. I'm not being mean here but your posts completely undermine the entire thread.

It's no good coming onto the site and saying it is rigged when you simply don't have basic strategy for a game. Your posts are making it look like it is just losing players who haven't got a clue about poker and blaming a site being rigged for their losses.

First of all, poker is a game of variance. You can play perfect poker and bad players can felt you all day. It won't happen forever but you need to handle it and not blame a site being rigged.

That is until you are experienced enough to know you have a winning game and yet still fail at a site through what you observe to be rigged hands, seen again and again through months of hundreds of thousands of hands play. I posted a load of hand histories from one single day- every all in pot was lost- they are forgotten already and haven't even been discussed.

I've played and observed enough online poker to KNOW in my heart that FTP is rigged for action, excitement, bad beats and coolers all to keep the $$$ running at the max and keep bad players putting money on the site. PS is not rigged, they offer a very good RNG deal- good play will win you money on their site. I've played there and it is a pity they don't offer RB otherwise I'd certainly still be playing there.

In fact, every site I have ever played has offered a fair game in my opinion except FTP- which is why I am determined to expose them.

And getting back to the FTP topic, I would ask anyone who is interested to follow a little test and put the results up.

It doesn't take long-

1. Just log in to the site and open up a 90 player SNG- say the $12 buy in one.

2. Open up 4 tables and observe the action.

3. Everytime there is an all in BEFORE the river, write down the hole cards of each player who is all in, the board at that time and the final outcome.

4. Do it until you get to the final table, you should have seen a fair few all ins by this time.

5. After doing this, and only doing it- do it properly and actually record the all ins, then come on here and tell me this site is not rigged for action, excitement and bad beats and that they offer a fair game- because, it is simply is not.

I did it, the bad beats firstly outweighed the favourite hands holding up % wise, I saw some of the worst BS hands I have ever seen in my entire life.

I know HH's alone prove nothing but here are a few I noted that just made me laugh out loud-

99 all in vs AQ pre flop, board comes 9AAQQ!!!!!!

3 way all in, TT vs A9 vs 44. Flop comes 9Q7. TT still ahead. Drama though as A9 now has another two outs- turn = A. A9 take the lead. River is the 4 to give the deepest stacked the win and knock both players out.

So TT vs A9 vs 44- board is 9Q7A4...yout tell me that happens every day LOL

I saw KK go in vs 66 and 66 made quads.

Within 5 minutes I saw JJ go all in vs 66 and 66 made quads again!

On the final table, the eventual winner, who IMO is a house bot, I sorry but this guy had 66, flopped a set vs someone's KK and stacked them. OK, fair enough.

THE VERY next hand he gets KK all in pre flop vs someone's QQ and holds.
That is kind of crazy right?

THEN, the VERY VERY next hand he gets KK again and flops a fucking set of kings!

Could anyone even begin to imagine the fucking odds of that happening with the same player 3 hands in a row? I'd guess it is in the billions.

But anyway, throughout the tourny, just constant bad beats, nut straight all in vs gut shot- opponent had no need to go all in but he made his gut shot to make the higher straight.

Constant AK vs AX hands and flop coming X high each time.

I wasn't even playing, I was simply observing the all ins and favourite hands and I was watching the action and you expect the favourite to lose it is that bad.

I've never seen anything like.

But anyway, do the test for yourself, record the results so you don't have to take my word for it- I was shocked and never actually realised how bad it was.

This site should genuinely be investigated.


VA Poker
May 25, 2009
In my opinion you need to examine your results over a bigger sample size than you are currently. Just because you had a couple bad days doesn't mean you are necessarily doing anything wrong. Even the best players in the world have long losing streaks. Just focus on playing well and making the right decision. If you make the right decision and get sucked out on there's nothing you can do about it.

Also, maybe I'm biased about this because I'm a little older, but I wouldn't put too much faith in all those little programs that tell you exactly how to play. When I first started playing there wasn't even online poker much less all that stuff and I honestly think I am better off because of it. It's hard to get an edge on the field if you are all following the same programs telling you what to do. If you aren't worried too much about the money you'd probably be better off throwing all of that out the window. It could possibly hurt you a little bit in the immediate future but it will help your game down the road.


Denethor
May 25, 2009
n/t

VA Poker
May 25, 2009
Denethor,
I don't know the exact probabilities of these hands but i will assume you have the correct information. What you have to realize though is that in a bubble no hand is probable. Meaning you could pick four random hands and figure out the probability that those hands would be dealt at the same time and it would be very very unlikely. There is no possible combination of hole cards four different people could have that would be anywhere close to probable. If four guys had A4,68,22,KJ that might seem to some to make alot more sense but the probability that the hand was going to be dealt just like that is extremly low. However, if four guys had those hands you wouldn't be posting on here how ridiculous it was. If you honestly think whatever site you are playing on is corrupt then play somewhere else; but spending so much time and energy trying to decide whether or not sites are rigged will never help your game. Even if you are right, it's not going to help you as a poker player. Play somewhere you atleast think you can trust and from there just focus on your game. If you just think they are all rigged just don't play because you will never improve if you are sure you are playing on a rigged site.


Denethor
May 24, 2009
n/t

Denethor
May 24, 2009
n/t

Denethor
May 24, 2009
n/t

VA Poker
May 24, 2009
Denethor,
If you can handle it financially, I would suggest moving up in stakes just a little. As you said, at that level it is very hard to read people and even put people on certain ranges in certain situations. whatodds gave you some good advice about calling re raises pre flop, but at the stakes you are currently playing at it's hard to win with that strategy. You are going to get re raised pre flop so often that if you only play back with AA KK QQ or AK you are just going to get run over. So that forces you to make big calls pre flop with things like KQ, which is not a habit you want to develop . Alot of players have trouble at the lowest stakes then move up and start to do a little better. As far as learning the game goes, you'd be just as well off playing play money as you are playing .01/.02. Also, a good way to see alot of hands at slightly higher stakes without much risk is to play single table sit n go's. They pay out 33% of people so you can play those all day without worrying about losing too much money.


what odds
May 23, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
Ok. I get the point you so subtly and tactfully made (several times): I'm pathetic. At least it appears my posts are entertaining you with their stupidity.

The whole point of my post was about the trouble I'm having playing at the ultra-micro stakes because people simply always think they have the best hand (even if it's middle pair bad kicker), and I have no way of knowing when they really do. The person with JJ would have played that hand exactly the same if they had 99 instead.

And at this level, properly sized bets/raises don't accomplish anything. It's impossible to push anyone out or get any idea of the strength of others' hands. They'll call anything.

To reinforce my point, I'm 30.13BB/100 at .50 tables, 17.65 at .25, 8.38 at .10, and (4.82) at .05. My VP$IP for all 2964 hands is 17.27.

Edit: A couple additional points that further show what I'm talking about at the low stakes tables. The UTG (JJ winner) wasn't the one who put in the big re-raise PF. It was the MP2 who had ATo and who had a VP$IP of 78.57 and PFRaise% of of 14.29%. The UTG who won with JJ had a VP$IP of 88.24 and a PFRaise% of 0.
Denethor, I wasn't saying you were pathetic in anyway, we all have to start somewhere but as of yet you haven't grasped basic poker. I don't intend to offend you there either, if anything, it is intended to help you out.

As I said, you flopped trip queens with second best kicker, the pot was $6+ and you had much less than that left so you don't hve to worry about your opponents hand at this stage- just get the money all in.

But you shouldn't be seeing a flop for 100BB if you only hold KQs- it is a hand with potential but is almost always going to be behind in a pre flop raising war- any ace is well ahead- ATo was well ahead of KQs, JJ was well ahead...so fair enough, you raise it up and a player then puts in $2 or so, you just have to fold there because you don't have a hand worthy of calling.

You say- 'And at this level, properly sized bets/raises don't accomplish anything. It's impossible to push anyone out or get any idea of the strength of others' hands. They'll call anything.'

For you to call 100BB with KQs to hit a big flop is falling into that very category.

At the moment, the only hands yu should be willing to put that much all in pre flp with is AA/KK/QQ/AK- that is it- you need to fold to all other big raises.

I think this thread is drifting away from what it was originally intended for, to discuss the games at FTP.


Denethor
May 22, 2009
n/t

what odds
May 22, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
I started playing with some actual money on PokerStars today (very small stuff). I did fairly well on the .05 tables. I wasn't there really long, but when I quit, I had had gained 30.38BB/100.

I entered a .25 buy-in MTT 90-player tournament and finished 9th winning a whopping $0.67. Still, I was pleased. :)

I'm not doing well at all on the .02 tables, though. I just can't have any confidence in what I have and am having a terrible time putting other players on any kind of range. They'll play anything, think everything they have is a winning hand, and just don't play right at all.

I lost one in particular that I wanted to get your guys' take on. No conspiracy theory here or anything. You guys know what you're talking about, so I wanted to see if I messed this up too badly or just got unlucky. It wasn't like I was so focused on my trip Qs that I didn't consider the possibility of a full house. I just didn't put the UTG on JJ since he limped in, thought the odds of him having the fourth Q were pretty slim, and couldn't imagine him hanging around that long with 33 or 88.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($3.68)
MP1 ($2.92)
MP2 ($1.98)
CO ($2.20)
Hero (Button) ($4.87)
SB ($2.98)
BB ($3.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q:diamond:, K:diamond:
UTG calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 bets $0.04, CO calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, BB calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $1.98 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero calls $1.90, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.90

Flop: ($6.09) Q:club:, Q:spade:, 3:heart: (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG bets $0.22, Hero raises to $0.50, UTG raises to $0.78, Hero calls $0.28

Turn: ($7.65) J:club: (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG bets $0.92 (All-In), Hero calls $0.92

River: ($9.49) 8:diamond: (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $9.49 | Rake: $0.45

Thanks, guys!
;)

I'm not sure if I'm getting levelled here or not LOL but erm the hand on the flop doesn't really matter. The pot is $6+ and you have trips with about 70c left.

KQ is not a hand to stack off with pre flop so just fold it pre flop when he raises again.

Also, don't min raise- it is a bad play because the whole table is going to call to see a flop and you won't have a clue where you stand most times.

PS is a good site, I also like Cake poker- they have good rakeback deals- 33% dealt RB which is the best offer on the whole internet.

I would suggest you learn how to play though to be honest, no offence but that hand is pretty terrible for you to ask that question!


Denethor
May 21, 2009
n/t

Cransley69
May 20, 2009
Just started playing Titan poker...what a difference. you get the nuts on the turn and you don't get sucked out on....Had three, all-in bets hold up tonight...never used to get that at FTP

buck22
May 15, 2009
Gone back to my pokerstars account at start of the month, and it really feels like im experiencing the ANTI-RIG! I am playing like a demon of course, and in good shape 90% of the time, but im winning at a ridiculous rate, its awesome, but this month, my roi's are about 130% and BB/hr is like 35, is that just how poker roles? Or is it a bit of a coincidence that the British promotions are on this month hmmmmmm. Hope its just good play and would thouroughly recommend pokerstars at mo lol. Ive been full tilt free for months, good ridence to that bauush*t! If it aint workin, quit the site ffs.

Denethor
May 14, 2009
n/t

what odds
May 14, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cransley69 View Post
What Odds

It is quite clear to me, seeing these hands, that you and I are having the same experience...I will also bet - and correct me if I am wrong - that between these pocket Aces being cracked each time you did not have any that won hands, unless they were to players who all folded to an average raise.

That is what I find with AA and KK on Full-Tilt...you either lose a stack by the cards being rigged against you, or you just take the blinds.

Anyone else find this?

Oh...and before long that poker god, VA Poker, will come along and tell you its because you're a bad player!

Cransley
I did win hands in this time, but those are the all ins from one session- 100% loss rate...which is incredible given my equity was solid in most of them.

Well all those hands (most sorry- good ten hands or so) were every all in for one single session.

It isn't possible to lose every all in like that in one session- especially given I was solid favourite on a few occasions.

If anyone had experienced that day, then they wouldn't be playing on FTP either, believe me :D


Cransley69
May 14, 2009
What Odds

It is quite clear to me, seeing these hands, that you and I are having the same experience...I will also bet - and correct me if I am wrong - that between these pocket Aces being cracked each time you did not have any that won hands, unless they were to players who all folded to an average raise.

That is what I find with AA and KK on Full-Tilt...you either lose a stack by the cards being rigged against you, or you just take the blinds.

Anyone else find this?

Oh...and before long that poker god, VA Poker, will come along and tell you its because you're a bad player!

Cransley


eldave1
May 14, 2009
Feel your pain WHATODDS. I lost the last five showdowns as a favorite (rebuilding stacks each time) before going out on the hand below.

This was a perfect flop for me as I was short stacked (thanks to the shit above) hoping to catch other players with rag aces - so I slowplay at first (a mistake perhaps). When 3 people stay in (one guy was already all in) I thought - oh fok - someone has K with better kicker - oh well. Then I say to myself - no, this is FT - some fok is staying with a J-10 gutshot even though there is AKK on the board. Please no Q - at least let me lose to K - 10. Sure as shit - river = Q - gut shot (4ht best hand) wins, As a note - this fok was winning whatever trash he played the whole tourney. egads.

Full Tilt Poker Game #12213891912: Satellite to FTOPS Main Event (91264173), Table 5 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:10:45 ET - 2009/05/14
Seat 1: falafaf (4,280)
Seat 2: de bierkar NL (5,145)
Seat 3: hustletakova (20), is sitting out
Seat 4: loosencrazy (5,620)
Seat 5: cecumm (10,295)
Seat 6: FubiusMaximus (5,620)
Seat 7: eldave1 (2,560)
Seat 8: nicolae05 (465)
falafaf antes 25
de bierkar NL antes 25
hustletakova antes 20, and is all in
loosencrazy antes 25
cecumm antes 25
FubiusMaximus antes 25
eldave1 antes 25
nicolae05 antes 25
de bierkar NL posts the small blind of 150
hustletakova checks
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [9s Kd]
loosencrazy folds
cecumm folds
FubiusMaximus calls 300
eldave1 calls 300
nicolae05 folds
falafaf raises to 600
de bierkar NL folds
FubiusMaximus calls 300
eldave1 calls 300
*** FLOP *** [Ks Ah Kc]
FubiusMaximus checks
eldave1 checks
falafaf bets 600
FubiusMaximus calls 600
eldave1 raises to 1,200
falafaf calls 600
FubiusMaximus calls 600
*** TURN *** [Ks Ah Kc] [6d]
FubiusMaximus checks
eldave1 bets 735, and is all in
falafaf calls 735
FubiusMaximus calls 735
*** RIVER *** [Ks Ah Kc 6d] [Qh]
FubiusMaximus bets 900
falafaf calls 900
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FubiusMaximus shows [Jh Td] a straight, Ace high
falafaf mucks
FubiusMaximus wins side pot #2 (1,800) with a straight, Ace high
eldave1 mucks
FubiusMaximus wins side pot #1 (7,790) with a straight, Ace high
hustletakova mucks
FubiusMaximus wins the main pot (160) with a straight, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9,750 Main pot 160. Side pot 1 7,790. Side pot 2 1,800. | Rake 0
Board: [Ks Ah Kc 6d Qh]
Seat 1: falafaf (button) mucked [As 2c] - two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 2: de bierkar NL (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: hustletakova (big blind) mucked [2s Ad] - two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: loosencrazy folded before the Flop
Seat 5: cecumm folded before the Flop
Seat 6: FubiusMaximus showed [Jh Td] and won (9,750) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 7: eldave1 mucked [9s Kd] - three of a kind, Kings
Seat 8: nicolae05 folded before the Flop


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
UTG: $26.55
CO: $34.00
BTN: $31.85
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $28.50
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with J:diamond: J:heart:
3 folds, Hero raises to $1, BB raises to $3.50, Hero calls $2.50
Flop: ($7.00) A:diamond: 5:spade: 9:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $2, Hero calls $2
Turn: ($11.00) A:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $3, Hero raises to $9.50, BB requests TIME, BB calls $6.50
River: ($30.00) J:club: (2 players)
Hero bets $10 all in, BB calls $10
Final Pot: $50.00
Hero shows J:diamond: J:heart: (a full house, Jacks full of Aces)
BB shows A:club: A:heart: (four of a kind, Aces)
BB wins $47.50
(Rake: $2.50)

This guy was 3 betting almost every other hand so I'm not ready to drop JJ so fast, especially when the turn comes another Ace. He was playing it weak so I make the raise on the turn, he calls which tells me he does have something- I was ready to fold the hand but the river comes the two outer I didn't need- sheer incredibleness.

That will do for now. Just looking at my FTP database is making me feel sick!! :D


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
BB: $25.10
Hero (UTG): $26.05
MP: $27.15
CO: $76.30
BTN: $29.30
SB: $21.95
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with K:club: K:diamond:
Hero raises to $1, MP calls $1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.90, 1 fold
Flop: ($3.25) K:spade: J:heart: 7:spade: (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks
Turn: ($3.25) T:club: (3 players)
SB bets $1.75, Hero raises to $3.75, MP raises to $5.75, SB calls $4, Hero calls $2
River: ($20.50) 6:spade: (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets $10, SB calls $10, Hero calls $10
Final Pot: $50.50
Hero mucks K:club: K:diamond:
MP shows A:heart: Q:diamond: (a straight, Ace high)
SB mucks 7:club: 7:diamond:
MP wins $48.00
(Rake: $2.50)

Could you look me in the face and tell me this is not rigged for action? Could you?

Please note other opponent's hand, flop came top set and bottom set (KKK and 777), the extreme LAG had QA for gut shot. I slow play to raise the QA player who has tried to steal pots as though it is his job...

Of course the turn seals the deal for a 3 way all in.


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
CO: $38.25
Hero (BTN): $25.00
SB: $11.70
BB: $20.35
UTG: $24.40
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with K:club: A:club:
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, SB raises to $3.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $25 all in, SB calls $8.45 all in
Flop: ($23.65) T:club: 8:diamond: 4:heart:
Turn: ($23.65) 9:club:
River: ($23.65) 4:diamond:
Final Pot: $23.65
Hero shows K:club: A:club: (a pair of Fours)
SB shows T:diamond: Q:spade: (two pair, Tens and Fours)
SB wins $22.50
(Rake: $1.15)

Let's stack off with QTo against the TAG because he so lkely doesn't have a hand better than QT high....:rolleyes:


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
BB: $49.60
UTG: $25.00
MP: $28.45
CO: $65.95
Hero (BTN): $12.50
SB: $25.70
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with K:heart: A:heart:
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, SB calls $0.75, 1 fold
Flop: ($1.95) 9:heart: A:club: 4:heart: (2 players)
SB bets $1.95, Hero raises to $7.80, SB raises to $13.65, Hero calls $3.85 all in
Turn: ($25.25) 6:spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)
River: ($25.25) Q:club: (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $25.25
Hero shows K:heart: A:heart: (a pair of Aces)
SB shows 9:club: 9:diamond: (three of a kind, Nines)
SB wins $24.00
(Rake: $1.25)

"Can you say action pot?".


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
BTN: $27.40
SB: $38.35
BB: $32.55
UTG: $37.80
Hero (CO): $12.50
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with A:heart: A:club:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.85, 1 fold, SB raises to $1.45, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4.60, SB calls $3.15
Flop: ($9.45) 5:spade: 9:diamond: 9:heart: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB calls $3
Turn: ($15.45) T:diamond: (2 players)
SB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $4.90 all in, SB calls $4.65
River: ($25.25) Q:heart: (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $25.25
SB shows J:diamond: K:heart: (a straight, King high)
Hero shows A:heart: A:club: (two pair, Aces and Nines)
SB wins $24.00
(Rake: $1.25)

:eek: Anyone offer an explanation? This guy seems pretty happy with king high being the nuts...:confused:


what odds
May 14, 2009
So you surely have to see the signifiance of my posts. They were my all ins for one day's session. Every one lost. Played one all in two days later- AA vs AK and lost...

Now onto some of FTP's more colourful beats, these aren't session specific, just spread out through my database.

Here is an absolutely beautiful hand. You have to stop and ask youself a question here. Who is this play sitting there with KJ? Who is he and why is he in this pot?

I have AA, other player flops TPTK and the pot winner flops a guy shot and takes the pot-

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
BTN: $27.25
SB: $24.75
Hero (BB): $13.90
UTG: $51.05
CO: $28.40
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with A:club: A:heart:
UTG raises to $0.85, CO calls $0.85, BTN calls $0.85, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4.35, UTG calls $3.50, CO calls $3.50, 1 fold
Flop: ($14.00) 2:club: Q:spade: 9:heart: (3 players)
Hero bets $9.55 all in, UTG calls $9.55, CO calls $9.55
Turn: ($42.65) K:club: (3 players - 1 is all in)
UTG checks, CO checks
River: ($42.65) J:heart: (3 players - 1 is all in)
UTG checks, CO checks
Final Pot: $42.65
Hero shows A:club: A:heart: (a pair of Aces)
UTG mucks A:diamond: Q:heart:
CO shows J:spade: K:diamond: (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
CO wins $40.55
(Rake: $2.10)

He doesn't have anything...yet he stays in- both I and other player have genuine hands when the money goes in- he has fuck all. Ask yourself guys, wake up and smell reality!

EDIT- Sorry, but just LOOK at this hand again. I 3 bet AA to 17BB, he calls with KJo...he then puts in the rest of the cash without a hand. He then hits running king and jack to take the pot away from me and the TPTK player.....I can't really offer more than this folks.


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
SB: $25.00
BB: $39.60
UTG: $37.20
MP: $11.05
CO: $72.05
Hero (BTN): $26.25
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with A:spade: A:club:
UTG raises to $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, Hero raises to $5, 3 folds, CO raises to $72.05 all in, Hero calls $21.25 all in
Flop: ($53.85) 9:diamond: T:diamond: 3:diamond:
Turn: ($53.85) J:club:
River: ($53.85) 4:diamond:
Final Pot: $53.85
CO shows K:diamond: A:diamond: (a flush, Ace high)
Hero shows A:spade: A:club: (a pair of Aces)
CO wins $51.20
(Rake: $2.65)

This one came two days later. I had taken time to cool off. Convinced myself once more that variance was to blame and I was unlucky. Afterall, I'd made a lot of RB that day.

So once again we get a loose aggressive player- typically running like he knew what cards were coming...well the HH is there to see.

So after that bad day, it is two days later and that is the first all in I play since then.

HOW can that happen?

Am I supposed to believe this happens in real life poker? After running so bad I sit down two days later and this is the first all in I get...:confused:


what odds
May 14, 2009
You have to realise that all these hands are on the same day, I didn't win a single all in hand that day, every single hand went against me, I just don't think it is possible to run that bad.

With FTP, these days are regular occurences- I'd say at least once every fortnight you'd hit a day like this where no matter what you did, you lost money. These days are bankroll destroyers- all profit from the week before is given back in one day of extreme bad beats and set up cooler hands- who folds a set to the raiser if the flop comes 3 of a suit? But no, he just happened to flop the nut flush...yeah whatever FTP.


what odds
May 14, 2009
So I then start full stacking, 50BB play was getting me nowhere despite playing in theory a very profitable game. FTP didn't want me winning and simple as that.

So same day, same session, I then get this hand- I believe this was one of the last hands I played on FTP-

This player was absolutely crushing the game. Every pot he played he was winning despite his truly awful play- a house bot? A magician? I don't know, all I know is he got my $$$...

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
BTN: $9.75
SB: $6.15
BB: $17.35
UTG: $28.85
MP: $25.00
Hero (CO): $34.90
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with A:diamond: A:club:
UTG raises to $1, MP calls $1, Hero raises to $5.25, 3 folds, UTG calls $4.25, 1 fold
Flop: ($11.85) 4:club: T:heart: 6:club: (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $11.85, UTG calls $11.85
Turn: ($35.55) 7:diamond: (2 players)
UTG bets $11.75 all in, Hero calls $11.75
River: ($59.05) 4:spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $59.05
UTG shows 4:heart: A:heart: (three of a kind, Fours)
Hero shows A:diamond: A:club: (two pair, Aces and Fours)
UTG wins $56.10
(Rake: $2.95)

I mean come on FTP, come the fuck on!


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
BB: $10.85
Hero (UTG): $10.00
CO: $30.44
BTN: $39.67
SB: $25.77
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with A:club: J:spade:
Hero raises to $1.10, 1 fold, BTN calls $1.10, 1 fold, BB calls $0.85
Flop: ($3.40) J:diamond: 5:club: 2:spade: (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.50, BTN folds, BB calls $2.50
Turn: ($8.40) 5:spade: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6.40 all in, BB calls $6.40
River: ($21.20) K:diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $21.20
BB shows 5:heart: Q:heart: (three of a kind, Fives)
Hero shows A:club: J:spade: (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
BB wins $20.14
(Rake: $1.06)

Starting to tilt now, but how can I put this guy on a 5 here???

Still same session...


what odds
May 14, 2009
I trap this aggro LAG for all his cash when he tries to steal- but he has the magic 2 outs and that is all these guys need.

(still same day and session for anyone interested)

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
BTN: $33.87
SB: $39.90
BB: $26.53
Hero (UTG): $10.00
MP: $25.29
CO: $5.00
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with K:spade: A:heart:
Hero raises to $1.10, MP calls $1.10, 2 folds, SB calls $1, 1 fold
Flop: ($3.55) A:club: 8:club: 9:spade: (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.50, MP calls $2.50, SB folds
Turn: ($8.55) 4:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $5.75, Hero raises to $6.40 all in, MP calls $0.65
River: ($21.35) T:club: (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $21.35
Hero shows K:spade: A:heart: (a pair of Aces)
MP shows T:heart: T:spade: (three of a kind, Tens)
MP wins $20.29
(Rake: $1.06)


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
MP: $7.39
CO: $25.00
BTN: $31.13
SB: $28.15
BB: $17.21
Hero (UTG): $8.57
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with K:heart: K:club:
Hero raises to $1.10, MP calls $1.10, 4 folds
Flop: ($2.55) 4:heart: 5:diamond: 6:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $2.55, MP calls $2.55
Turn: ($7.65) J:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $4.92 all in, MP calls $3.74 all in
River: ($15.13) 9:diamond: (2 players - 2 are all in)
Final Pot: $15.13
MP shows Q:diamond: J:diamond: (a flush, Queen high)
Hero shows K:heart: K:club: (a pair of Kings)
MP wins $14.38
(Rake: $0.75)

This is still the same session. I hadn't tilted, I was trying to play through this 'variance'.

Once again I get beat. I couldn't win a hand.

But it only got worse...


what odds
May 14, 2009
Again with this hand I am behind, but this is just cooler city. Still same session, all these hands were within one day-

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
SB: $25.10
Hero (BB): $10.35
UTG: $35.35
MP: $53.37
CO: $25.00
BTN: $26.54
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with 9:spade: 9:diamond:
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.85, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.60
Flop: ($1.80) 9:heart: 7:heart: Q:heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.50, Hero raises to $6.30, BTN raises to $11.10, Hero calls $3.20 all in
Turn: ($20.80) J:heart: (2 players - 1 is all in)
River: ($20.80) 4:club: (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $20.80
Hero shows 9:spade: 9:diamond: (three of a kind, Nines)
BTN shows A:heart: 6:heart: (a flush, Ace high)
BTN wins $19.76
(Rake: $1.04)


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
MP: $26.91
Hero (CO): $10.55
BTN: $25.25
SB: $36.60
BB: $72.95
UTG: $35.60
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with A:club: K:club:
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.10, 2 folds, BB raises to $3.25, Hero raises to $10.55 all in, BB calls $7.30
Flop: ($21.20) K:spade: 3:spade: 5:club:
Turn: ($21.20) Q:spade:
River: ($21.20) 7:club:
Final Pot: $21.20
Hero shows A:club: K:club: (a pair of Kings)
BB shows K:heart: K:diamond: (three of a kind, Kings)
BB wins $20.14
(Rake: $1.06)

Still same session, what the HH doesn't tell you is this guy was playing 70/50/10+, AK is well ahead of his rnage, but no, he just happens to have KK on this occasion. Everyone gets KK/AA, even the loosest players but come on- this guy had 3 bet and 4 bet all in with as bad as 89o- so I get AKs and he gets KK....hmmmm...


what odds
May 14, 2009
Still same session-

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
UTG: $16.85
MP: $25.00
CO: $25.00
BTN: $37.35
SB: $18.71
Hero (BB): $12.35
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with A:heart: K:heart:
UTG calls $0.25, MP raises to $0.75, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50
Flop: ($2.35) 6:spade: K:club: K:spade: (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks
Turn: ($2.35) T:heart: (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets $2, Hero raises to $8.35, UTG folds, MP calls $6.35
River: ($19.05) Q:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $3.25 all in, MP calls $3.25
Final Pot: $25.55
MP shows K:diamond: Q:heart: (a full house, Kings full of Queens)
Hero shows A:heart: K:heart: (three of a kind, Kings)
MP wins $24.28
(Rake: $1.27)


what odds
May 14, 2009
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
MP: $26.12
CO: $20.27
BTN: $25.00
Hero (SB): $9.96
BB: $26.58
UTG: $25.00
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with A:club: A:diamond:
2 folds, CO raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.25
Flop: ($3.75) 7:diamond: 9:club: J:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $3.75, CO calls $3.75
Turn: ($11.25) 4:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $4.46 all in, CO calls $4.46
River: ($20.17) Q:heart: (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $20.17
CO shows T:spade: K:diamond: (a straight, King high)
Hero shows A:club: A:diamond: (a pair of Aces)
CO wins $19.17
(Rake: $1.00)

And yes, this is the same session- all these hands are just from one session...


what odds
May 14, 2009
Within next 5 minutes-

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
Hero (BB): $10.37
UTG: $25.44
MP: $27.04
CO: $11.40
BTN: $12.65
SB: $67.52
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with A:club: A:diamond:
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.85, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.65, BTN raises to $12.65 all in, Hero calls $7.72 all in
Flop: ($20.84) J:diamond: 3:heart: 5:club:
Turn: ($20.84) 5:heart:
River: ($20.84) Q:heart:
Final Pot: $20.84
Hero shows A:club: A:diamond: (two pair, Aces and Fives)
BTN shows Q:club: Q:diamond: (a full house, Queens full of Fives)
BTN wins $19.80
(Rake: $1.04)


what odds
May 14, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cransley69 View Post
Absolutely spot-on analysis Eldave.

I would never moan about the occasional bad beat - that is part of the game and we all benefit from them as well as lose to them on occasions. It is the frequency of their occurrence at this site, giving a run of improbable results that, taken together, are statistically a virtual impossibility.

The way to win money at poker is to have an edge over the odds, sufficient to make you an above-average player AND to cater for the loss of the chips to the rake...a few percent of edge is all it needs.

You achieve that edge by developing intuition - knowing when to fold a strong hand, knowing when a strong raise will force a timid player to ditch the best hand, etc - and by winning more pots than would be won by your hole cards alone. This last part comes from playing position well, making well timed bluffs and semi bluffs, and maximising your chips when you have a winning hand.

Going all-in with the best hand, heads up, is a guaranteed way to win money in the long term, when playing poker. The odds of the suckout are always smaller than the odds of the win. At this site this is the most glaring "adjustment" of the game by the code-writers - it just doesn't happen the way it should, when compared to the odds.
Exactly, I couldn't agree more Cransley.

I've experienced many sites for large samples as I've already discussed, I've gone back to FTP again and again (best site to play at so in my interest to play there if possible- dealt RB, software, auto top up etc etc) but time and time again you run into days when the bad beats and cooler hands just simply do not relent. It all happens too regularly for it to be a genuinely random deal.

I can't prove anything, but I just know with my experience that this site is not offering a fair RNG. It is all about action and excitement. I've taken runs of beats and coolers that just simply defy logic- once in a lifetime bad runs occuring every week.

You can sit and there and keep playing on some days and just know when a beat is coming. Cransley's hand is one of the better examples- KK played extremely badly vs a player trying to take down a pot using position- turn puts the trips on the board- looks safe to the KK hand- secured all in...

What are the odds of that hand? Two cards to come, turn comes one of the two 5's left in the deck, then we get all in with one card to go and another two outer hits...what are the odds of that happening with two cards to go?

I'm going to post some of my more memorable FTP beats, some hands may be short stacked from when I ran my test (and had to quit when 17 buy ins out of equity) but the odds remain the same regardless of stack size. I won't post AA vs KK hands that lose, I'm going for the ones that offer a bad beat but also show how bad opponents can play and still suck out- I'll also post coolers.

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
BB: $10.41
UTG: $25.00
CO: $28.58
BTN: $19.06
Hero (SB): $13.11
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with A:heart: A:spade:
3 folds, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.75
Flop: ($2.00) 3:heart: 4:heart: K:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $2, BB raises to $9.41 all in, Hero calls $7.41
Turn: ($20.82) 8:diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)
River: ($20.82) K:diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $20.82
BB shows T:diamond: K:club: (three of a kind, Kings)
Hero shows A:heart: A:spade: (two pair, Aces and Kings)
BB wins $19.78
(Rake: $1.04)


Cransley69
May 14, 2009
Absolutely spot-on analysis Eldave.

I would never moan about the occasional bad beat - that is part of the game and we all benefit from them as well as lose to them on occasions. It is the frequency of their occurrence at this site, giving a run of improbable results that, taken together, are statistically a virtual impossibility.

The way to win money at poker is to have an edge over the odds, sufficient to make you an above-average player AND to cater for the loss of the chips to the rake...a few percent of edge is all it needs.

You achieve that edge by developing intuition - knowing when to fold a strong hand, knowing when a strong raise will force a timid player to ditch the best hand, etc - and by winning more pots than would be won by your hole cards alone. This last part comes from playing position well, making well timed bluffs and semi bluffs, and maximising your chips when you have a winning hand.

Going all-in with the best hand, heads up, is a guaranteed way to win money in the long term, when playing poker. The odds of the suckout are always smaller than the odds of the win. At this site this is the most glaring "adjustment" of the game by the code-writers - it just doesn't happen the way it should, when compared to the odds.


eldave1
May 13, 2009
I appreciate your comments as I beleive they are genuine. For the record - I am sure that there are many folks that would agree with your strategy regarding A-5 suited, etc. - Just recognize that there are many who do not who are very successful players as well. In addition to the actual cards, what is not available is what the intent of the A-5 player was (e.g., to steal a hand, etc.) and what the pattern of the raiser had been - i.e., did he have a read on this guy?

Employing ABC poker (i.e., premimum hands in position only) is one recommended approach to poker. I abandoned it in favor of Danny N's small ball approach as I found it much more profitable - at least for me. I was fininshing to many live tourneys in the bubble area - not any more - winning now. Funny - I won a tourney this morning an the critical hand for me was a min raise I did with A 3 diamonds against a pretty tight player. Flop came A-3-3 - he had A - K and I took all his chips. Had he re-raised me preflop I could have gotten away pretty cheaply. Anyway - I don't think your opinion on the play was necessarily wrong - just wanted to point out that there are many varied valid ways to play the game.

What the poster was frustrated about though had nothing to do with that hand. It had to do - I'm guessing here from my own experience- with a foking inexplicable string of hands where he was in with the best (whether form starting best, trapping, lucky ass flop, etc) and when all the chips are in the hand does not hold up time after time. It is not the bad beat - it is the bad beat pattern, It is the flop that hits just enough of everyone pattern, it is the one turn card that keeps 5 players in pattern that he is reacting to. It wasn't really about A-5.

Take care friend


Cransley69
May 13, 2009
VAPoker

You talk as if the only thing that matters in Holdem is the strength of your hand pre-flop, and that's not the case. What matters, more often than not, is the strength of the hand you can represent. That is one of the advantages of having position - you can tell a lot from the betting patterns of your opponent and can put pressure on them to fold the better hand, by representing something stronger. You can generally take advantage of those occasions when they have missed the flop, which will be more often than not.

How do you think Gus Hansen, Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan play...watch high stakes poker and see for yourself...they are ALWAYS playing A5s, heads up in last position. Why? Because it's a positive equity strategy.

This is why playing A5s is a reasonable play here...the vast majority of the hands that opponent is likely to hold, would have missed the flop and why playing an aggressive style at most pots (particularly when last to act) is a profitable play, in the long run.

I averaged $35k a year at the Bicycle casino, (just playing evenings and weekends) playing the style I do at full tilt. The difference was that the cards were dealt randomly. Suck-outs like the ones at FTP occurred the correct amount of times, representing the odds of them happening. At FTP that just doesn't happen. Going all-in with the strongest hand before the river will always return a profit in the long run in real poker. At FTP, as I have found to my cost, you will ultimately lose by playing that way. Hence it is rigged - or whatever term you prefer for a random number generator that clearly isn't random!

What Odds hits the nail on the head. By delivering more action cards the pots are made bigger and their rake increases. There are billions of dollars involved in this industry and a small % increase in the take by the house equals a huge sum of money.

Don't try and pretend that there isn't a financial motive behind what goes on here...there is.


VA Poker
May 13, 2009
whatodds, eldave,
Both of you guys stated there is nothing wrong with calling with A5 suited, not in the blind, facing a raise from MP at a 6 max table. Cransley posted a picture of his hand and he was clearly at a full 9 man table so that was not the case in this hand. The reason I think it was a poor call is A5(suited or not) is totally dominated by 17 different hands(A6-AK and any pair 5's or better), all of which are in most players range of opening up a pot in middle position. The only way you are not dominated there is if your opponent has 2's,3's,4's or KJ, KQ, maybe QJ suited. So, in the average online players range of raising there, 17 hands have you dominated, 3 hands are a coinflip, and you are slightly ahead of 3 hands. Thats why you shouldn't call pre flop with ace rag in my opinion, it is dominated by the majority of hands people are opening pots with, and it dominates exactly ZERO hands. Even if the other guy has A2 you're just going to chop it. I'd much rather call with 10Js or even 78s than A5s. Maybe you guys disagree, but in my opinion people overplaying ace rag is one of the most common mistakes in hold'em.

I don't mind you saying I'm part of the "you should have played it that way crowd", but keep in mind; the only reason I even had the opportunity to second guess his hand is because he is part of the "lose a hand then post it on a forum as it is proof of something" crowd. The reason why I said something is many other players were in his seat they wouldnt have lost a dime and examining your own play always helps where as crying about a hand on a forum generally doesn't do much for your game. If you don't want someone second guessing your hands just keep them off an online forum.


eldave1
May 13, 2009
"There is nothing wrong with playing A5s from LP in a NL cash game (I'm referring to 6 max here...."""

What Odds - you got this perfectly correct in my view. I would add this to the "you played it wrong crowd" - According to who???? I have read several books and I know that the pros would have played this a dozen different ways:

* Danny N would have probably min raised
* Ivey calls for sure
* Grinder calls for sure
* Hansen - please - he probably thought it was the nuts.
* Helmouth folds
* Gordon folds

etc. etc. etc.

The point being, we mere mortals ought to be a bit less confident in whether a hand was played correctly or not since the poker Gods can't agree amongst themselves. I - for me - would have played the hand exactly like it was played with a slightly different twist then "WHAT ODDS". I like the potential monsters - suited ace in late position is one of those where your opponent can dead hit their hand and you can still take all their money if the flop comes right for you as well. Finally I think the point is this from the prior post - at least in my humble opinion - the Hero played the hand much better then his opponent (with KK I raise at least 5 BBs preflop as I do not want rag ace calls) and I would have never let the hero see the turn if I survived the flop). The KK was played horribly in my view and still got rewarded. That does not prove anything about the randomness of FT - but the hand play was fine.


what odds
May 13, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Cransley, thank you for you post cursing me. Keep calling with A5 against a raise from early position, you'll do great. Let me ask you this, even if FTP is rigged, why do they screw you EVERY time like you say? Just by chance wouldn't they have to rig it for you sometimes? Did they pick you out once you set your account up to screw you? Given the fact the you have "69" in your name and you curse at people on online forums, I'm guessing I'm much older than you and have played much more live ( I guess thats what you mean by real????) poker than you ever have so I don't need a lesson in "real" poker, thanks though. If you think professionals would make that call pre flop you are absolutely dillusional. Are you saying you called that pre flop hoping to make a flush? Why else would you call, even if you spike the ace on the flop you have no idea where you are in the hand because his range of raising there would include A6-AK all which would have you dominated. But you think it's good to call A5 even if he could have you dominated because you are suited? Thats good for a laugh atleast. Next time you complain about a hand why not pick one in which you were behind basically the entire time. Whether or not FTP is rigged complaining about it on this forum does nothing to help your game, however if you were willing to examine your own play that would help you alot. OK, now you can reply cursing me because I critisized the way you played one poker hand, that really shows your maturity.
There is nothing wrong with playing A5s from LP in a NL cash game (I'm referring to 6 max here).

Calling to hit a flop and then fold if you miss is bad (fit or fold), but if you call with it to win the pot by taking adavantage of your position then it is a perfectly reasonable play.

You have to loosen up at times- so say I call with A5s, miss the flop or catch an ace or 5. Nothing great but my opponent is likely to have missed as well. If the player is going to c-bet heads up a lot I can call and if he checks the turn I can steal the pot right there- it is a profitable play vs certain players- the hand you hold is irrelevant on these occasions.

I actually think this hand is a good example of the BS FTP offers.

Look how it played out- firstly, the KK player checks OOP with his overpair, which is awful play on that board. Hero bets thinking he is ahead and can take the pot down.

KK calls. Now the RNG knows that Cransley is going to slow down with his weak pair as he has been called and the initial raiser is likely to have something.

So what is the best card for FTP to put on the turn to secure more action? Easy, the 5 to give trips.

The player with KK never think Hero has trip 5's here so he continues his perceived trap. He check raises hero all in and to top it off FTP bails out the extremely badly played KK and throws a K on the river.

I've seen that BS happen so often- just designed to maximise rake.

The only way that hand was going all in to get the most rake was if the 5 hit the turn.

The RNG on FTP works by actions- (now that is a fact, they even say that on their site), so if the PFR had bet flop and hero called, we wouldn't have seen that hand- a different bet here or there and you get different cards on the next street.

It was because KK was trying to slow play and hero never had much that the RNG threw the 5 on the turn to secure a big pot...

To say not play A5s from LP is kind of crazy considering how online poker has developed recently...I'd only play it vs players I knew I could float but still...it is a very feasible and often profitable hand to play.


VA Poker
May 12, 2009
Cransley, thank you for you post cursing me. Keep calling with A5 against a raise from early position, you'll do great. Let me ask you this, even if FTP is rigged, why do they screw you EVERY time like you say? Just by chance wouldn't they have to rig it for you sometimes? Did they pick you out once you set your account up to screw you? Given the fact the you have "69" in your name and you curse at people on online forums, I'm guessing I'm much older than you and have played much more live ( I guess thats what you mean by real????) poker than you ever have so I don't need a lesson in "real" poker, thanks though. If you think professionals would make that call pre flop you are absolutely dillusional. Are you saying you called that pre flop hoping to make a flush? Why else would you call, even if you spike the ace on the flop you have no idea where you are in the hand because his range of raising there would include A6-AK all which would have you dominated. But you think it's good to call A5 even if he could have you dominated because you are suited? Thats good for a laugh atleast. Next time you complain about a hand why not pick one in which you were behind basically the entire time. Whether or not FTP is rigged complaining about it on this forum does nothing to help your game, however if you were willing to examine your own play that would help you alot. OK, now you can reply cursing me because I critisized the way you played one poker hand, that really shows your maturity.

Denethor
May 12, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
Cransley...
For me it's not fun playing on a non-random and skewed RNG site where, anecdotally, there seem to be far too many unusual hands. This has nothing to do with AA v. Ak or A5 v 56, etc.or whether Qs hold up. Rather, what bothers me is when I fold a hand that mnany other more aggressive or newer players would not (i.e .make a good fold) and I see the hand unfold with what is almost certainly a SET-UP deal such that more players have to see the flop, turn, and river, unless they are psyhics, which of course is not playing poker... and then some miraculus card is dealt that had a 10% chance. this happens all the Fking time. Not poker.
I've noticed that, too. There have been a lot of times where I thought if I played the terrible hands like others do, I'd actually be winning more. I get a 63o which would have been a full house if I'd played to the river. I get A5o which would have been a straight with 234 on the flop. Etc. And in each case others had respectable starting hands like AJs or something (or even AA or KK) that would have lost had I played the junk.


nitemare6
May 12, 2009
Cransley...

you are 100% correct so why argue. I only post on hre to help other newbie, uninforemd (suckers) from losing more money on a nonrandom, fixed and rigged poker site.

The real proof of your poker ability and discipline is whether you can stop playing there like I did, a couple years ago, or maybe just play $1 turnaments from time to time, and not risk more than $50 if you don't mine getting frustrated every other hand, and ruining your live playing skills.

For me it's not fun playing on a non-random and skewed RNG site where, anecdotally, there seem to be far too many unusual hands. This has nothing to do with AA v. Ak or A5 v 56, etc.or whether Qs hold up. Rather, what bothers me is when I fold a hand that mnany other more aggressive or newer players would not (i.e .make a good fold) and I see the hand unfold with what is almost certainly a SET-UP deal such that more players have to see the flop, turn, and river, unless they are psyhics, which of course is not playing poker... and then some miraculus card is dealt that had a 10% chance. this happens all the Fking time. Not poker.

Fortunately there have been a lot of live tournaments and live games in Chicago lately, and sure enough, there are bad beats adn suck-outs. But FOR SURE they do not occur in any unusual pattern and at least I know that deck has 52 cards and is shuffled each hand AND without any pre-design subtely programmed into the deal, like on Full Rigged Tilt.

So, if you or others who bitch on this forum continue to play for any singificant money on FTP, then please stop bitching. Either stop playing there or take the crap that you will continue to receive on this rigged, off-shore, unregulated "poker" site, and call it F-T-BINGO.


Denethor
May 12, 2009
I'm just glad that I'm running out of money on FTP so I can leave. :)

Last night, I played a little and lost quite a bit when my QQ lost to J5o when the board came 75598.

Then this morning, I was messing around again. Sat through about 25 hands. Lost most of what I had with AKs when another player had AA. The very next hand, exact same thing happened again to someone else - AKs beaten by AA. Obviously, AA is the better pre-flop hand over KAs, but it's the same thing what odds keeps talking about.

Just sat through another 20 hands at a low table. Got only garbage the first 18 hands and folded all of them. Then was dealt JJ both the 19th and 20th hands. Lost the first time to A3o when he paired his A on the flop. Lost the second time to AA.

At least I'm almost free from FTP.


Cransley69
May 12, 2009
VA Poker

you are a complete 100% arse. There isn't a professional player in the world who isn't going to call a raise of 3 x BB with Ax suited in late position, over an opponent who enters a lot of pots with that raise. As to being a calling station pre-flop, I note that you provide no advice to my previous post when someone goes all-in against you, pre-flop, and you're holding pocket Aces...presumably that's a fold to you!

You also miss the point entirely. I accept bad beats. What I do not accept is the regularity they occur on FTP - they in no way reflect REAL poker, played at a casino, where the cards are dealt in a truly random (or at least very close to random pattern). I should get sucked out on in the above circumstances 1 time in 21. On FTP it is more like 1 time in every 2...although recently it has been EVERY time. That isn't natural, but hey! you go on playing there...it's your money.

You also haven't got a clue about Texas Holdem principles. Since you obviously haven't a clue and you need a lesson in poker, here goes:

There are 169 possible starting hands in Texas Holdem. Amongst them, A,5 suited is ranked 27th strongest (28th in Sklansky's ratings, but 27th when played to the end against any random starting hand). It is a playable hand - moreso than, say A,8s and A,9s, because it has straight as well as flush possibilities. It is a good hand against a large stack because it has good payoff possibilities if you hit your draw.

It is a starting hand that can be either raised, or smooth-called before the flop to a moderate raise - even more so when in position (as I was).

On the above flop, out of the 26 stronger starting hands, there are 8 that are ahead and 18 that are not. Opponents bet could have been K,J, A,10 A,J A,Q A,K or any other of the non-pocket pair combination that my hand beats on the flop, but which were stronger holdings pre-flop. The odds are that I am ahead on the flop and the check of my opponent tends to indicate that (he was actually slow-playing, but there is nothing to indicate that until he's gone all-in later in the hand)

Had my opponent check-raised a considerable amount after the flop I would have folded, putting him on a high PP. As it was he smooth called, allowing me to see the turn, which gave me the dominant hand.

I have played this hand fine - you could argue that a half-pot sized bet after the flop is risking less to a check-raise, but I wanted to represent something stronger than a standard continuation bet , hence two-thirds of the pot.

My play here is fine, so take your head out from where the sun don't shine and get real. FTP is rigged.


VA Poker
May 12, 2009
Are you really complaining? That is a terrible pre flop call. You tried to degrade your oppenent and excuse your poor play by stating he raises every time he enters a hand. That is actually the optimal play, it is far better to open a pot up with a raise than call another's raise(like you did) or limp in. If you would have just folded pre flop (like you should have) you wouldn't have lost any money. What about the fact that the pot was 20 BB's deep when you spiked a 5 outer on the turn? I guess your 5 outer was skill and his 2 outer was luck right? You were behind on every street but one, but somehow this guy is a luckbox and you got screwed.

Once again, Im not even here to debate the legitimacy of FTP(I'm smart enough to know when I don't have enough info to be sure of something). It's just my opinion that many times people post their hands that they think are hard evidence the site is rigged, the hand was played very poorly (this one being a perfect example). Instead of examining your own play and your call with ace rag facing a bet from MP pre flop you just cry rigged. Did FTP force you to make that call pre flop? If you would have made the correct play you wouldnt have lost a penny on that hand. I don't care if FTP is rigged or not, what I do know is that if you spend more time crying over an online site than you do examining your own game you'll lose no matter what site you go to.

One more point, if you were holding KK and raised from MP, the guy two over on your left called you with A5 and hit 2 5's you would be freaking out and putting it on here crying rigged. Get over it and stop posting your hands, the only thing you are proving is that you are a pre flop calling station.


Cransley69
May 11, 2009
Ahhh...full tilt strikes again. I'm getting so good at this that I can now predict the future...sadly, my days as a psychic are numbered as my account on full tilt is nearly out and I am never playing there again...anyone who does is an idiot (as I was for several years before I worked out what's going on.)

So this time I get A5clubs. I'm in late position and a player to my right, who tends to raise whenever he enters a hand raises three times the BB. I call and we are heads up. Flop comes 5h 3d 6d, giving me a pair of fives.

Player checks and I bet two-thirds of the pot. Player calls. Turn comes 5s, giving me trips. THE VERY MOMENT IT APPEARS I RECOGNISE THIS HAND FOR WHAT IT IS. AN ACTION HAND DESIGNED TO TAKE ALL OF MY CHIPS. I know that I'm ahead, I know he's going all-in and I know the miracle suckout is coming. I sat there and predicted it, and - being a sad old git - actually said to the computer - "come on then Full Tilt - prove me wrong".

Player checks. I bet two thirds of the pot, he goes over the top, putting me all-in. At this point I'm putting him on a high PP and recognise that he has just 2 cards that can rescue him, whilst I have 42 safety cards, but I still know, absolutely with certainty that I'm saying goodbye to my money. I call.

Sure enough Pocket Kings. In the fraction of a second before the river I say to the computer "come on then, show me the king", and whoopee doo ...right there on the river out it pops.

Now of course, I recognise that 2-outers do happen, but it's when they happen time after time after time after time, against the odds, that you know there's something fishy going on. Since my last post my account has dwindled. Every single all-in bet I make has the same result - I'm ahead when I make the bet, and behind by the end. There is no way that the dealing on this site is random. Give me a live casino any day.

Anybody recommend a site that works - I hear Titan Poker is good. Good Luck all.

Cransley69


eldave1
May 10, 2009
No one knows if the site is rigged or not since we do not have access to the HHs and FT has failed to provide a reputable audit that would at least put a dent in the debate. So - in my opinion it is rigged. I have a caveat - my working definition of rigged is that the results do not reflect what one would experience in a live game.

In live - when you get down to 20% of the field, there are mostly solid players left with a few donks sprinkled in (who normally do not last much longer). At FT - it is just the inverse.

In live - you RARELY get the totally inexplicable calls (e.g., 8 3 offsuit calling an opening bet of 4 times the BB). At FT - you get them all the time and they get paid (i.e., you love the call live, you hate it on FT because your lose more often then you should).

In live - your odds stay pretty consistent throughout - e.g., AA wins 80% in the beggining, middle and end (over the long haul). At FT - my stats are totally skewed - I may win AA 80% overall, but it is 40% when all or most of my chips are at risk, etc. I win half the coin flips early and when there is little at stake, I win 30% when it is late and a lot at stake.

etc.

Lately, I have been polling live players (I paly tourneys about 4 times a week) to see which of them play on-line. The vast majority no longer play (i.e., they used to) because they believe it is rigged. So even though it is what they love to do and can do it from the comfort of their bedroom - they chose not to any longer. They say because it is rigged. I interpret that to mean that it does not mimic the expereince they have in live games.


Denethor
May 10, 2009
Thanks for the advice VA.

Even in just the short time I've been playing, I've been burned quite a few times. That's why I have so little confidence in hands that should be no-brainers.

I do seem to spend a lot of time just folding. That's why, even thought I've sat through a decent amount of hands, I really haven't had much chance to play many of them or gain much experience after the flop. I'll experiment with more risks


buck22
May 10, 2009
Hi, i know this isnt about full tilt but i need a good moan. I just spent 12 hours as chiplead in a tourny out of 1286 people only to bubble the final table because of the fekin retards that shouldnt have got that far in the first place! I spent the whole tourny avoiding big coinflips and big stax only for some tosspot to shove all in with AQ and spike an ace, then tosspot number 2 shoves in with A9 to spike, guess what, another fricken ace! Bubbled in 11th position taking $100 for my efforts, not even minimum wage! So this rant is dedicated to all the f***ers that shove half a mill with AQ, damn u all. Damn good game though. lol

VA Poker
May 10, 2009
Denethor,
I know you want to play TAG, but you are thinking way way too tight. If you have QQ and the flop comes AQ4 rainbow, you should be jumping up and down, not thinking you are beat. Not only is your hand going to be tall almost everytime this happens, but you don't even have any strong draws to worry about (no flush draws and only one possible gutshot straight draw). In hold'em the odds to get dealt a pocket pair are 13:1 and when you do hold a pocket pair the odds of flopping a set are 11:1. You aren't going to flop sets that often on a non paired board and when you do, you almost always have the best hand. The odds of you having AA, him having QQ and you both flopping a set are extremly low. If you are going to throw away middle set on a regular basis because you put the guy on top set what hands are you going to like? The other thing I don't understand is, you had TPTK and you bet the pot all the way through. However, you said if you were him you'd have thrown away the three Queens. Why would you throw away three queens but play top top for all your chips? Top top can be beaten by alot of random hands becuase all it takes is two pair to beat it(in that hand he could have easily had aces up). However, his three queens was the second nuts so I don't know who would lay that hand down. If I were you, I'd loosen my play up alot, see alot more flops. I read your earlier posts stating that you have an ultra tight starting hand selection to minimize post flop mistakes. If you are just starting to play you should play more pots and welcome mistakes (thats the only way to learn). When I started playing poker there was no online micro stakes and I had to learn the hard way playing 1/2 hold'em and losing hundreds of dollars at a time. You should take advantage of the fact you can learn on very low stakes (or ever for free if you want) and loosen your play up a little bit. If you try some different styles you'll learn more and get a feel for which style works best for you when you start moving up in stakes. Just a thought, good luck.


Denethor
May 9, 2009
I've read a bunch of different sites, but haven't looked much at the one you provided. Thanks for the link. And I'm definitely at the very beginning as far as experience.

When I asked about the other player folding, I probably was confusing. Obviously, he wasn't going to fold if he knew I had AK. He had me beat with the first card of the flop unless I got a miracle on the turn and/or river. If I were in his place, I would have assumed that the other player had AA and hit a third A on the flop beating my three Qs. I was curious what I did wrong that gave away that I had AK rather than AA. Or was he going to play it even if there was a chance I had AA just because of the odds? With my brief playing experience on FTP, I don't think I can remember a time I had QQ and won.


what odds
May 9, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
Thanks for the tips, odds.

I know that I played it poorly. It seems that quality cards come along so rarely that I push them too hard when I get them. In this instance, I bet way to much on both the flop and the turn putting myself in a bad position, and I should never should have called the all-in. I was trying too hard to get him to just fold rather than hang around and pick up something to beat me on the turn or river and found I'd dumped too much already when he went all-in.

Aside from not knowing when to quit, was there anything specific about my play or betting that would have told him that I didn't have AA or KK? Obviously, you can't know how this specific player would have responded, but do you think that going all-in after the flop might have saved me? I guess, what I'm asking is what I did to telegraph that I didn't have him beat. I don't think I would have had the guts to ride it out the way he did if the situation (and betting) was reversed. I probably would have folded after the flop thinking the other player had three As. If I did make it to the river, I would have assumed he had a straight A high.

Played another $1 SnG trying to burn through what's left of my captive money. I botched my last hand on there. I was in the BB with A9 and the flop came A8A. I was running short on time, so I went ahead and played as though I had it. Since I knew where three of the As were, I thought maybe I'd get lucky and nobody would have the fourth, but I got knocked out. Another player had it, though with AK, but they didn't win it either. As usual, I didn't keep in mind that whatever the most improbable hand is, somebody probably has it. :) The player that won the pot had 88 for a full-house. The full-house flop was annoying enough, but also one of the other players had KK and another 77. So we had AK, KK, 77, and 88, and the board was A8A5T.

In hindsight, I'm regretting a lot of my posts on here and may trim or remove them altogether. Considering no more than I've played and how much of the oddities I've encountered, I would think that my experiences that I've posted add a small amount of additional evidence to support the claim that something just doesn't seem right at FTP. On the other hand, though, I think my inexperience and how poorly I've played in the examples may make them seem less valid or credible.

Your last comment about top pair seems all too true. It's almost like it's necessary to rethink the odds on various hands - like AA and KK are no longer the pre-flop cards with the best chance of winning. That's one thing that has really driven me crazy. The whole reason why I'm playing so tight and agressive as instructed is because it's supposed to make it so that I'm usually going in with a premium (if not the best) hand. That should minimize the impact of my inexperience and bad play. If I was limping in with 56s or 9To, then it wouldn't surprise me if I was always getting myself into trouble. If I were to play nothing less than AA and don't fold, then mathematically I should still win the majority of the time regardless of how much I botch the play after the flop. Obviously, I do play less than AA, but the guide I use has me playing pretty selective. Other than when I'm the BB and everyone checks, I absolutely won't even call the BB with anything less than 99 or QJs and only play those in late position if nobody before me has raised. Early position, I won't call the BB with anything less than TT or AJs. You would think that would provide some amount of security against my ineptitude after the flop. :)
Reading this you do seem to be very inexperienced but we all have to start somewhere ;)

Check out Two+Two and then read the micro limit strategy threads- they are great for learning how to play.

You are right to play tight from early position, but once you are in LP you should be raising a lot of hands like JTs, 67s, 33, ATs JQo etc to even handsd like K9s if there a chance to raise an unopened pot.

Position makes it much easier to play and you open up to steal people's blinds.

I could never begin to help you much here because it would take too long but check out Two+Two and read some of the strategy articles.

With the AK vs QQ hand, he would never fold to anything, he has the second best hand possible (he wants you all in ASAP) and would never fold a set-

Here's the link, read through what you can before putting more money onto any sites-

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...hreads-430489/

Denethor
May 9, 2009
Thanks for the tips, odds.

I know that I played it poorly. It seems that quality cards come along so rarely that I push them too hard when I get them. In this instance, I bet way to much on both the flop and the turn putting myself in a bad position, and I should never should have called the all-in. I was trying too hard to get him to just fold rather than hang around and pick up something to beat me on the turn or river and found I'd dumped too much already when he went all-in.

Aside from not knowing when to quit, was there anything specific about my play or betting that would have told him that I didn't have AA or KK? Obviously, you can't know how this specific player would have responded, but do you think that going all-in after the flop might have saved me? I guess, what I'm asking is what I did to telegraph that I didn't have him beat. I don't think I would have had the guts to ride it out the way he did if the situation (and betting) was reversed. I probably would have folded after the flop thinking the other player had three As. If I did make it to the river, I would have assumed he had a straight A high.

Played another $1 SnG trying to burn through what's left of my captive money. I botched my last hand on there. I was in the BB with A9 and the flop came A8A. I was running short on time, so I went ahead and played as though I had it. Since I knew where three of the As were, I thought maybe I'd get lucky and nobody would have the fourth, but I got knocked out. Another player had it, though with AK, but they didn't win it either. As usual, I didn't keep in mind that whatever the most improbable hand is, somebody probably has it. :) The player that won the pot had 88 for a full-house. The full-house flop was annoying enough, but also one of the other players had KK and another 77. So we had AK, KK, 77, and 88, and the board was A8A5T.

In hindsight, I'm regretting a lot of my posts on here and may trim or remove them altogether. Considering no more than I've played and how much of the oddities I've encountered, I would think that my experiences that I've posted add a small amount of additional evidence to support the claim that something just doesn't seem right at FTP. On the other hand, though, I think my inexperience and how poorly I've played in the examples may make them seem less valid or credible.

Your last comment about top pair seems all too true. It's almost like it's necessary to rethink the odds on various hands - like AA and KK are no longer the pre-flop cards with the best chance of winning. That's one thing that has really driven me crazy. The whole reason why I'm playing so tight and agressive as instructed is because it's supposed to make it so that I'm usually going in with a premium (if not the best) hand. That should minimize the impact of my inexperience and bad play. If I was limping in with 56s or 9To, then it wouldn't surprise me if I was always getting myself into trouble. If I were to play nothing less than AA and don't fold, then mathematically I should still win the majority of the time regardless of how much I botch the play after the flop. Obviously, I do play less than AA, but the guide I use has me playing pretty selective. Other than when I'm the BB and everyone checks, I absolutely won't even call the BB with anything less than 99 or QJs and only play those in late position if nobody before me has raised. Early position, I won't call the BB with anything less than TT or AJs. You would think that would provide some amount of security against my ineptitude after the flop. :)


what odds
May 9, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
I understand what you're saying, what odds, about "voting with your feet" and agree completely. The only reason the software is even still on my computer is because they have my money held hostage (below minimum withdraw), and I hate to just leave it there.

Also, in response to buck, I have no illusions about my ability. I haven't been playing long at all and am trying to learn. That is why I'm trying to strictly adhere to guides I have found because I am not in any position to try to fly by the seat of my pants. I also know that I am way out of my league at the levels I'm playing. I just keep hearing that the anomolies only exist at the lower levels so I was trying to escape them. As I said, I've played five multi-table tournaments on PokerStars using the same approach and have placed in all but the highest of them finishing 2nd in one. So, either the competition is much worse at the low levels of PS than at the low levels of FTP or there is some difference in the systems. I prefaced the whole details of that hand by saying "Now, first off, I know I played this poorly so nobody needs to tell me that. I'm a beginner and play like one. After sitting through forty-some hands waiting on something playable, I was too eager to try to make the most out of it since I figured it would be another forty hands before I got anything else playable and would most likely blind out before that." I obviously don't know the math as well as you do, but am I correct in assuming that the numbers you gave were a direct comparison of KQo and AJd? If so, then in hindsight the numbers were in his favor, but neither of us knew the others' hand at the time. That's not to say I played correctly (as you pointed out).

Still trying to convince myself that it's because I'm playing at low tables, I sat down at a .25/.50 table. Way beyond my bankroll, but does it really matter anyway? First hand I saw (but wasn't in), was two players all-in - AA vs QQ with AA losing.

Was there for 50 hands. I only had maybe 3 playable hands but didn't get much from any of them. I was still losing ground but was about even because I hit some level where part of my "sign up" bonus was released.

Then hand 50 rolled around. I'll preface by saying that, again, I'm sure I didn't play this as I should have. I was last in mid-position and was dealt AKo. All before me had either limped or folded. I bet 3x the BB and (as always) everyone folded except one of the earlier limpers who called (didn't re-raise). Flop came QA4 rainbow. I had top pair with top kicker, so I decided I wasn't going to mess around. I raised the pot and the other player immediately called. Turn was 3c and I again raised the pot which the other player immediately called. River was Jc so I again raised the pot and the other player immediately re-raised me all-in. I was pretty sure where this was headed the whole way, so I called. He showed QQ. So he limped pre-flop with QQ and was positive I didn't have AA. Maybe if I had pushed all-in sooner, he would have thought I had AA. Like I said, I know I should have played it differently. You just don't get much practice when you sit through fifty hands and play 3.

http://www.tolkienthings.com/temp/ftphand05.jpg
That is just unlucky given you had TPTK but I think perhaps it could have been played better as you had position. He played it tricky and the flop is extremely cruel.

If he checked to you then you have to bet, if he checks the turn you have to bet it again.

On the river, he checks again, at this point you have to step back and think- he's called pot bets on flop and turn, the only hand that would be calling that you beat usually is perhaps AJ/AT (and one of those has just made two pair!), not many other hands hands would be calling on that dry board, so I'd check after on the river- you are only getting called or raised by hands that beat you- especially given this is a full ring game.

If you have only played such few hands then this is classic FTP- you've had KK run into AA- you've had AJs vs 9Ts all in pre flop and lost (his play was extremely strange) and then someone limps QQ and you raise AK only for the flop to come QA4 rainbow- BRUTAL.

If you are playing good poker then you are going to lose a decent portion of your stack with TPTK there- you have to bet at least flop and turn.

that reminds me of another of my gripes with FTP- TP hands hardly ever seemed to hold up. Someone would call on the flop and always seem to pick up a draw or make two pair etc- TPTK is a strong hands that needs to be played aggressively in NL cash games, you play at FTP and you'll becoming scared to even play it at all.


Denethor
May 9, 2009
n/t

buck22
May 9, 2009
No.1 I do not trust Full Tilt at all and will never play there for this reason. Denethor, on a table of 9 players, when you have KK some one else will have AA just under 4% of the time so it happens but not that often. However, being a great poker player isnt about always following the book, you've got to learn how to exploit the way others are playing eg the tosspot who called you with QK didnt make as big a mistake as he should because he got your whole stack. Like so:

Suppose you both start $1500

you raise 60 preflop then 240 on the flop

with QK he will lose $240 86% of the time

and win $1500 14% of the time

so your expected value (EV) is as follows:

(240x0.86)-(1500x0.14)= -$3.6

So even though he made what looked like a donkey play, and he probably didnt know this but he made the right play. You can blame luck but play this hand a million times and you'll be down around $3.6million.

Now, if you had checked it down when the scary overcard came along then:

you would win $240 86%
and lose $240 14%

(240x0.86)-(240x0.14)= +$172.80

It's these huge differences in mistakes that grinds the profit, so even though i think full tilt is dodgy, i think you'll have problems where ever you go unless you improve your game.


what odds
May 9, 2009
Denethor, vote with your feet.

Never deposit on the site again...there are better sites out there that offer fair games.

I can recognise what you say about paranoia. I remember when I first left the site last year.

I joined a new site, put $500 on, ran that up to $3,300 playing NL20 over a couple of months then decided to put that roll onto FTP.

The reason was (and this is the point that I want everyone to understand) FTP has the best software. They have the best graphics, dealt RB, nice bonuses, easy to use software for multitabling- as a serious poker player it was in my interest to play there.

So I kept a bit for myself and put $2,000 on. I could have played NL50 but wanted to start with NL25- well rolled for it with $2,000.

I told myself yet again that my previous losses were a result of bad luck and variance, why would they program a bad RNG etc etc.

So I start playing and within a few thousand hands I had lost $700 at NL25. That is 28 buy ins. It is possible to run that bad but for me it just wasn't coincidence.

The bad beats can feel like the problem but it is actually all the cooler hands- after 11 hands play you ran KK into AA. With pokerEV it would have you playing that badly as you were behind, but who is going to fold KK pre flop in a NL10 cash game? No one.

The site is designed to offer up big hands where both players are going to be forced all in way too often. You could in theory learn to spot these set up hands, but that just results in you playing bad poker.

AA vs KK happens, but not too often- you could go 1,000's of hands without being involved in a AA vs KK hand. Yet you played 11 hands and managed to run KK into AA...it isn't coincidence.

Then when you did get it in good you got bad beat. Not the worst beat ever, but what is that guy doing limp 3 betting 9Ts and then going all in for? Is he a house bot?

I'm still convinced the guy who stacked me twice- the 80/40 player who I discussed previously in this thread- was a house bot. There is no way those cards could have come off- just everything about it was set up- from his horrendous bad play to the sheer incredible cards that were dealt...

Even after leaving the site I did return once more- I think this was January. I just put $500 on to play NL25- literally the first hand I played was AA vs KK vs JJ- all 3 went in pre flop, river was the Jack...and I'm not even making it up.

I also managed to run the nut flush into a straight flush not long after. I had Ah 3h on the button, raised it up, limper called and flop was Qh Th 8h. Player check raises me on the flop, I shove all in and he shows Jh 9h....

I believe that was the last hand I played at FTP.

I've posted as much as I can for this thread now, people have been warned, it is now up to them whether they play there or not.


Denethor
May 9, 2009
n/t

what odds
May 8, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Thanks for the info. If you are looking for a loose Cake site, try playersonly. It's probably the loosest site I've ever played on. I've also seen more hands than I have on any other site and can say that I have definitely not seen the high frequency of odd things that you all swear to see on FTP. If I am playing a tournamenr or Sng and I look up someone on sharkcope, their stats are generally what you would expect based on their play. It is a low volume site though, you can always find a cash table but it's weak for sng's and mtt's.

How do I take advantage of rakeback? It sounds too good to be true for me considering I already have a Cake site I like and am comfortable with.
I played the Cake network for a few months. RB there is 33% so it can add up thousands of dollars per month if you play a lot at NL50+

I don't know if you already have an account that you can get it, but you could always try one of the RB sites out there- google RB offers and I'm sure you'll find what you seek ;)


VA Poker
May 8, 2009
Thanks for the info. If you are looking for a loose Cake site, try playersonly. It's probably the loosest site I've ever played on. I've also seen more hands than I have on any other site and can say that I have definitely not seen the high frequency of odd things that you all swear to see on FTP. If I am playing a tournamenr or Sng and I look up someone on sharkcope, their stats are generally what you would expect based on their play. It is a low volume site though, you can always find a cash table but it's weak for sng's and mtt's.

How do I take advantage of rakeback? It sounds too good to be true for me considering I already have a Cake site I like and am comfortable with.


what odds
May 8, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
what odds, I wanted to ask you about RB. I've played over 1 million hands online on pokerstars, fulltilt, ultimatebet, and playersonly and have never used rakeback. I've only heard about it a couple of times. How does it work and how do you use it? Thanks.
RB is a given % of the rake you contribute to each pot which you get paid each month.

Some sites are better than others, Cake and FTP the only sites offering DEALT rakeback. Whenever you are dealt into a hand, you get RB on that hand if that hand is raked. So if the pot was $50, there would be $2.50 rake, $2.50/6 players = 42c= *33%= 13c paid to you- it adds up a lot over each month.

At Cake, if you played 6 hours a day, at NL50 6 max, each table is worth about $8.50. If you 8 tabled 6 hours a day, you'd get paid $68 a day- it is almost like a wage once playing NL50+ provided you can break even over a month.

IMO though Cake poker is too tight now due to the TAG rocks all taking over the site to earn RB.

That is why with FTP being looser I'd rather play at FTP but it just doesn't offer a fair game in comparison to other poker sites.

Weekly Dealt RB is soooo good so it is such a shame FTP has a crap RNG.


VA Poker
May 8, 2009
what odds, I wanted to ask you about RB. I've played over 1 million hands online on pokerstars, fulltilt, ultimatebet, and playersonly and have never used rakeback. I've only heard about it a couple of times. How does it work and how do you use it? Thanks.

Denethor
May 7, 2009
n/t

Denethor
May 7, 2009
n/t

Denethor
May 7, 2009
n/t

Denethor
May 7, 2009
n/t

what odds
May 7, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
what odds,
I'm not attempting to debate you on whether or not full tilt is rigged. As I've stated over and over I have no idea, only played 20k hands, haven't seen anything too weird but that is irrevelant. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that you and I can't possibly know either way, so that isn't what I'm trying to debate. I was merely trying to challenge the point made by denethor that tilting the odds in favor of the guys who play poor hands means higher volume and more rake for full tilt. I know gambling and I know poker; in my opinion the guys who are consistently overplaying hands and pushing with nothing are simply using poker as another form of gambling. Every true gambler (people who play against the house over and over even though they KNOW the odds don't run in their favor) knows, the fun of gambling isn't even winning it's the thrill, it's the moment right before you find out if you hit that river card, or the thrill waiting to see if your huge bet is going to get your opponent off of his monster. Now in my opinion if a guy just loves the action, you don't need to tilt the odds in his favor to keep him around. Why cheat the guy who is there to win money and give it all to the guy who doesnt really care and just loves to gamble? Take yourself as an example, you play to win money ( I assume), you felt like you were getting a bad deal at FTP so you left. If they are consistently cheating players who are playing to win, they are all going to leave. If anything it makes more sense to cheat for the guys who play to win money so they will stay because the gamblers are staying reguardless. Do you see what I'm saying? I understand the psychology of both because I pride myself on playing the best poker I possibly can but often partake in other gambling avenues in which I know I don't have an edge. I do it for fun. Many guys take that same attitude to the poker table and those guys will play poker forever, why cheat for them and scare off the guys who are playing to win money? I'd like to hear what you think about that, but once again I am not trying to prove full tilt is not rigged. It's just my opinion that it makes no sense to rig it the way all of you suggest.
Fair play, I see your points and understand what you are saying. And I agree, neither of us can actually prove anything for true fact, but I enjoy discussing the topic.

To reply to your post, I think the vast majority of online poker players don't take the game too seriously. I'd say only a small % invest in Pokertracker/HEM, buy books and strive to improve their games to play for profit.

FTP isn't really bothered about the good players, they offer an RNG that suits the action players, as this is the majority of their player base (in my opinion of course ;))

I don't know what other sites you have played but bad players just don't last when the deal is random because they get cleared out time and time again. Every now and then you see a donk with a big stack but if he stays at the table, the sharks are going to take the lot eventually.

At FTP it is my opinion these extremely bad players last longer as they suck out more and FTP sets up hands to guarantee action.

So you'll often see a fish call a 3 bet (with no odds to do so) with JTs when opponent has AA and the flop comes QKA...the fish just got about the luckiest flop possible and now has the good player in a position where he will lose all his money- these 'cooler' hands are what I feel happens too much.

So the above hand maximises the rake for that hand as a guaranteed all in is coming, the fish wins a pot he should never really be winning and the good player chalks it down to variance.

Good player keeps going and blaming variance until he either quits and moves sites or is happy he still made some money for the month because of the dealt RB...until you have played all the sites and tried all the promotions, you can't begin to understand the signifance on as to why FTP offers weekly Dealt RB. They don't need to offer it as it is extremely generous and it is not as though they are begging for players- they have to offer it because of the BS that happens on the site to keep people playing.

Why would such a big site offer WEEKLY DEALT RB? New sites may offer this to get going, but a huge established site like FP has no reason to offer it. I certainly wouldn't have played there for as long as I did without dealt RB. I'd lose money over all for the month but RB would even it out- all the time I'm paying $1,000's of rake for the site per month.

Also, we talk about action players, they are at every site- in fact, FTP probably has the best players on the internet- as crazy as that sounds, there are much looser sites out there and I know from experience, so why do players like myself win money elsewhere but not at FTP?

It doesn't add up for me personally but I do see your points for what you say VA...it is a topic that will go on forever.


VA Poker
May 7, 2009
what odds,
I'm not attempting to debate you on whether or not full tilt is rigged. As I've stated over and over I have no idea, only played 20k hands, haven't seen anything too weird but that is irrevelant. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that you and I can't possibly know either way, so that isn't what I'm trying to debate. I was merely trying to challenge the point made by denethor that tilting the odds in favor of the guys who play poor hands means higher volume and more rake for full tilt. I know gambling and I know poker; in my opinion the guys who are consistently overplaying hands and pushing with nothing are simply using poker as another form of gambling. Every true gambler (people who play against the house over and over even though they KNOW the odds don't run in their favor) knows, the fun of gambling isn't even winning it's the thrill, it's the moment right before you find out if you hit that river card, or the thrill waiting to see if your huge bet is going to get your opponent off of his monster. Now in my opinion if a guy just loves the action, you don't need to tilt the odds in his favor to keep him around. Why cheat the guy who is there to win money and give it all to the guy who doesnt really care and just loves to gamble? Take yourself as an example, you play to win money ( I assume), you felt like you were getting a bad deal at FTP so you left. If they are consistently cheating players who are playing to win, they are all going to leave. If anything it makes more sense to cheat for the guys who play to win money so they will stay because the gamblers are staying reguardless. Do you see what I'm saying? I understand the psychology of both because I pride myself on playing the best poker I possibly can but often partake in other gambling avenues in which I know I don't have an edge. I do it for fun. Many guys take that same attitude to the poker table and those guys will play poker forever, why cheat for them and scare off the guys who are playing to win money? I'd like to hear what you think about that, but once again I am not trying to prove full tilt is not rigged. It's just my opinion that it makes no sense to rig it the way all of you suggest.


what odds
May 7, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Gambling has been around forever and will stay til the end of the time, its human nature, full tilt doesn't need to cheat to make people want to play cards.
Exactly, so why not make the most of it and manipulate the RNG to get a bit more out of the suckers whilst we are at it? NEVER underestimate the greed of human nature and the way businesses work.

We don't care who wins, just make 2 outers hit more than often, get people tilting, let the bad players suck out more often to keep them at our site, make more action hands to maximise rake etc- all easily programmed and all in evidence from my experience.

There are a few horrendous pots from my FTP history but I remember one in particular that just perfectly summed it all up for me. Alone, it proves nothing, as the hand was possible, but here it is from how I remember it.

I had been losing quite a lot, running into hands etc and a 80/40/5+ player was 3 betting me to hell and back.

I get JJ in the CO, he's on the button and 3 bets as expected.

My plan was to call and check raise shove the flop as he was c-betting most flops.

So flop comes A A 7.

I check and decide I'll call instead of shoving- I figured he'd bet the turn and I couldn't put him on the ace just yet. So he bets and I call. Turn = JACK.

So he either has AJ or I have him by the balls here. I check and he shoves the turn- I call and he shows quad aces.

If this guy was a 15/12 reg I wouldn't be in the pot after the flop here but this guy was playing 80/40+, he was 3 betting me almost every hand I raised, for him to then have AA vs my JJ, for the flop to come AA7 and turn to come the J, I mean...obviously, the hand alone proves nothing but this is the kind of crap you run into all the time.

PokerEV doesn't show anything here, I was behind the whole time but I was losing my stack vs this super LAG player every time...just has SET UP action pot written all over it.

Same player a few hands later, there is an UTG raise and I have AA. I 3 bet and the 80/40 calls...UTG folds. Flop is T47. i bet full pot, no slowplaying and he calls. Turn = J. I then shove all in on turn, he calls and shows A4. So he had cold called pre flop and flopped bottom pair and decided it was the nuts.

So all in on turn with AA vs A4, board is T47 J, river = 4 for trips...

So this guy is playing 80/40+ and has owned me twice and has 200BB of my cash.

I'll never forget that day for as long as I live. It just isn't poker.


what odds
May 7, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Here's what you guys don't understand; The guys who play terrible hands all the time are action junkies. They aren't playing those hands because they think they are always ahead. They like action, you see guys like that at every single level of poker. So, if you are one of those guys you are going to keep playing win, lose, or draw(ever heard of the Beal game?). However, the guys who play solid poker with the goal of making a good profit aren't going to keep playing if they keep losing. So, tilting the odds in favor of the action junkies is not at all the way to increase volume of players. They are going to be there no matter what and all the solid players are going to switch over to pokerstars or some other site. If they are in fact doing what you guys claim they are, they aren't only corrupt but very very stupid. Gambling has been around forever and will stay til the end of the time, its human nature, full tilt doesn't need to cheat to make people want to play cards.
You are truly deluding yourself here my friend.

If people trust the site is honest, they blame variance and fight through it. It took me 300,000 hands+ to take the hint...I kept putting it down to being unlucky or just a bad run of cards etc but finally began to understand how they work...people will always play on even if the game doesn't seem fair because they have the faith things will turn around. This is what I'm trying to get across to people.

Many players have now already left FTP to play elsewhere, myself included. But there player base continues to stay good because new players are always being sucked in- 'come play with the pros' etc...and if the bad players can do better at FTP than elsewhere, then they'll stay and play where they have the best chance...that argument works both ways.

People will always play there because of the software- it the best in the business. Along with 27% dealt RB it is awesome.

What amazed me recently and was a sign of things changing was across all RB affiliates, FTP made their RB paid weekly. Why? No other site on the net does this...not one. Weekly dealt RB, now that is impressive shit!

For me, that is to keep the regs- they can't change their software- it doesn't target specific players- so they need to keep topping up the regular players accounts with weekly RB.

Regs getting sick of crazy losing runs so FTP offers weekly RB to keep people sweet. With RB, you can turn the losses into profit. If I never had RB at FTP I would be bankrupt. Perhaps for some people that is enough to keep them at the site- it has got so bad at FTP that good players can't last out the month without hitting wild variance.


VA Poker
May 7, 2009
Here's what you guys don't understand; The guys who play terrible hands all the time are action junkies. They aren't playing those hands because they think they are always ahead. They like action, you see guys like that at every single level of poker. So, if you are one of those guys you are going to keep playing win, lose, or draw(ever heard of the Beal game?). However, the guys who play solid poker with the goal of making a good profit aren't going to keep playing if they keep losing. So, tilting the odds in favor of the action junkies is not at all the way to increase volume of players. They are going to be there no matter what and all the solid players are going to switch over to pokerstars or some other site. If they are in fact doing what you guys claim they are, they aren't only corrupt but very very stupid. To use the original example given by Denethor to prove his point; the guy with K4 is most likely an action junkie, he'll keep playing whether or not his bad hands hit an unusual amount of times. He plays because the action is thrilling to him, its not about winning or losing. However, the patient guy in his example with AA plays to win money. So, how does tilting the odds in favor of the straight gambler help? He's there to gamble and he'll stay reguardless. So tilting the odds in his favor is useless all it is going to do is make the patient guys who are really there to win money leave your site. Once again, I have NO IDEA if full tilt is corrupt or not. I've only played 20,000 hands there and I'd have to play about 100x that before I even started to make an educated guess based on my own results. I am just saying that in my opinion rigging the site the way you guys say they do would make absolutely no sense.

what odds
May 7, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
I guess to sumarize what I'm trying to say:

A system designed to encourage poor and below average players to continue playing would very much benefit a poker web site and would not need to mark each individual player as either "good" or "bad".

My claim isn't that "good players" are punished and "bad players" are rewarded. I'm saying that it APPEARS that bad play (not bad playERS) is rewarded too often and consequently good play is punished.

Also in a completely different direction, if you just look at society, everyone loves action and excitement. No one likes the defensive-oriented team that grinds out wins. They want the high-powered offense that scores big. Likewise, most people are not going to be happy playing in poker games where they have to fold 80% of their hands and often win uncontested pots when they raise with good cards. They want showdowns and big twists. They want big hands being beat by bigger hands being beat by huge hands all decided by the river.

Lastly, the fact that I didn't treat calling all-in with AA as a foregone conclusion shows how little faith I have in pocket aces after playing on FTP. :) I can't remember a time when I saw AA (mine or others) hold up on FTP.
Great post.

I've already pointed out to VA poker that bad players = more profit for the good players. To say bad players = more bad beats is a massive misconception.

It may mean a few more suckouts here and there but over a decent sample you'll be winning a lot more because you'll be getting to showdown with much better hands than your opponents- which = +$$$.

As is the case with most sites, with the exception of FTP.

I've said I've played many sites with good results, yet just can't beat FTP.

As a semi professional player it is in my interest to play at FTP- best software, easy multitabling, DEALT RB (so 2nd best RB online), $1,200 yearly bonus...all looks great.

It all looks great till you play the site and run into incredible coolers and bad beats that just don't happen in real poker or with a fair RNG.

I'm not going into it again, I've posted my thoughts but when you say-

"A system designed to encourage poor and below average players to continue playing would very much benefit a poker web site and would not need to mark each individual player as either "good" or "bad"."


I agree with that fully. VA says why do we still play there, I don't that is the point, haven't done so for months. I just think they run a rigged site and it is only fair people hear about it before they deposit and lose their money.

VA says why would they do it at low stakes. Well that is firstly were the bad players are and also you cannot underestimate the rake that low stakes games generate.

A typical month of NL25 probably generates millions of dollars per month, so why not crank up the beats and tilt factor, get the TAG regs tilting and keep the rake as high as possible? Thry aren't governed by anyone, online gambling in the USA is illegal so why is it outside the realms of possibility the site is rigged?

The only USA site I'd trust is PokerStars. Also Cake is fair enough, just the players are a bit too tight now due to all the RB chasers going for the 33% Dealt RB.

I'm not the only winning player to say FTP is the only site I lose out, it can't be coincidence.


VA Poker
May 7, 2009
sorry if i posted that twice, was not intentional.

VA Poker
May 7, 2009
I understand what you are saying but you have to see the big picture. You, and most of the other people who claim FTP is rigged are playing pretty low stakes (not to degrade I play low stakes myself). My point is, why would FTP bother rigging these small games when most of their profit comes from high level cash games and large buy in sng's and mtt's. We are lucky they even offer the low stakes games. Why would they risk losing the high stakes guys by rigging the low level games? To me, it just makes no sense. Not a single high stakes player has come on here claiming its rigged, nor has a single player come on and claimed the site is working in their favor, how can it be against everyone?

The other thing is, I've played on 4 different sites over the past few years and on every single site, every time there is a bad beat someone in the chat box screams rigged. The only differences I've seen on these 4 sites (ultimatebet, pokerstars, fulltilt, and playersonly) is the level of play. UB and PO have way more fish than stars and ft. Granted I've put in the least time on full tilt, I've still seen about 20,000 hands by multi tabling for about 100 hours. Poker players will always look for any excuse why they got screwed or are unlucky (haven't you heard those who claim they have NEVER won a single race?), the bottom line is that if these people really truly believed ftp of any other site was rigged they would never spend another penny playing there (unless they are crazy).

I don't claim that I KNOW for sure 100% that these sites are not rigged. It's just my opinion that sites worth billions of dollars wouldnt jeopardize their whole net worth and reputation by rigging a 10 dollar sng so some fish will like poker more. It just seems to me that everyone who claims its rigged for sure is just looking at their small immediate experience and not grasping the full scope of these sites operations and the consequences vs rewards for these sites to rig the lowest level games.

As far as your claim that people only play poorly bc they know it works, you have to think about the nature of gambling. Some guys really want to be skilled poker players and some guys simply want to gamble. There are rich guys who sit down at the highest level tables and play horribly just because they crave the action. I lost 5k on the blackjack tables last time I was in Vegas, it wasnt because I thought I somehow had some advantage playing high stakes blackjack drunken and sleep deprived, I was just gambling. Thats what those guys who never ever lay down the suited connectors pre flop are doing. You'll see those guys no matter how high you make it up the ladder in poker. It's kind of like me writing these posts when there is about a 10000:1 shot I will convince anyone to think like me who already doesnt.


Denethor
May 7, 2009
I guess to sumarize what I'm trying to say:

A system designed to encourage poor and below average players to continue playing would very much benefit a poker web site and would not need to mark each individual player as either "good" or "bad".

My claim isn't that "good players" are punished and "bad players" are rewarded. I'm saying that it APPEARS that bad play (not bad playERS) is rewarded too often and consequently good play is punished.

Also in a completely different direction, if you just look at society, everyone loves action and excitement. No one likes the defensive-oriented team that grinds out wins. They want the high-powered offense that scores big. Likewise, most people are not going to be happy playing in poker games where they have to fold 80% of their hands and often win uncontested pots when they raise with good cards. They want showdowns and big twists. They want big hands being beat by bigger hands being beat by huge hands all decided by the river.

Lastly, the fact that I didn't treat calling all-in with AA as a foregone conclusion shows how little faith I have in pocket aces after playing on FTP. :) I can't remember a time when I saw AA (mine or others) hold up on FTP.


Denethor
May 7, 2009
I wasn't trying to say that the player receiving AA was a better player just by virtue of receiving AA. But clearly the player going all in with K4s is not going to be a good player. So I should have reversed in my example and had the AA player go all-in first. That really isn't at all relevant to the point I'm trying to make. I chose a poor example.

I was wrong to make assumptions about odd things happening in real poker because of my very limited experience. The problem that I see is that on FTP those 99:1 miracles seem happen all the time. I'm not just talking about to people against whom I'm playing. I see it even when I observe.

I set up an account on PokerStars a couple weeks ago, but hadn't played there hardly at all because I prefered the FTP software. I went to PokerStars and entered a play-money tournament equivalent to one I had been in most recently on FTP. The difference was like night and day.

I play tournaments ridiculously tight and agressive. That's not any brag on me because it's not "my" style or anything. That's just how much of I've read suggests beginners play. On FTP, I would blind out over and over before reaching the top 20. I just never received any playable pocket cards. I would go 50 hands without ever receiving anything better than K8o. When I did get what I counted as playable cards, I never hit the flop and others with significantly inferior pocket cards would get exactly what they needed (three of a kind, flush, full house, etc.). There were never any reasonable victories - only over-the-top ones. People didn't win with pairs or high cards. They won with straight flushes and four of a kind. Strong pocket cards just could not win in FTP tournaments.

The first and only tournament I played on PokerStars (just finished), I used the exact same ultra-tight play that I did on FTP, and I cruised to fourth place - even with antes! I am certain that I would NOT have won (terrible in heads up) but am confident I could easily have finished higher if I hadn't called an all-in because I had to leave. Most hands were decided by pairs or an occasional three of a kind. Players weren't as crazy about calling any raise with any card. Every hand didn't turn into an all-in-fest. It was so much nicer.

Now, you may just say that the difference was that the other players were playing tighter than those do on FTP. Or you could say that I was playing with worse opponents and was able to finish higher. Either of those could be the case, but they were still playing pretty poorly (all-in with TQo when I had AQs and raised substantially pre-flop) and this was a very low level tournament. Instead, my thinking is that the players on FTP play the way they do (calling everything, all-in all the time, etc.) for the simple reason that playing that way works on FTP. If people consistently lost when shoving all-in with 78s, they would either quit or learn that it's not the right way to play. Instead, for whatever reason, they hit these bizarre miracles on the turn or river upsetting much better hands enough that they think they are playing well and are making the correct calls.


VA Poker
May 6, 2009
In your example, why do you think the better player had AA? It makes no sense, everyone gets AA every once and awhile. Why does this guy picking up AA and having someone shove in front of him make him a better player? Please explain.


Also, you say these "miracles" never happen in "real poker" what does that even mean? Heads up pre flop AA against the worst pre flop hand (72o) still has a 12.5% chance of getting beat. I have been playing "real poker" as you put it, since I was 18 years old (im 34 now) and I have seen my share of crazy things. The last time I player live poker (I'm assuming thats what you mean by "real poker"?) I had JJ, flop went KJ7, he bet, I 3 bet, he 4 bet, I shove, he turns over KK, turn is a blank, river is a jack. Thats a one outer, in "real poker". Even if someone is a 99:1 dog they are going to hit that one time out of a hundred, you can't say something never happens in "real poker" that doesn't make any sense. There is obvious reasons why more unlikely results happen online, I'm not going to bother going into all of them again as I've done it on every post I've made and no one listens. If you read these complainers posts a lot of them say that they are winning live players and lose online, so it has to be rigged. The fact is that unless you play in a live game with crazy crazy action the online game is a whole different animal. I player for 13 years live before ever playing online. The first 6 months online I lost about 3,000. Now I am a winning online player, it took me awhile to realize that I can't play the exact same way I do online as I do live. If i played that way I'd get run over. So alot of these guys, instead of realizing that they should change their online play because its a whole different game, they just say its rigged because they see more beats.

I'm not trying to attack you or anything. Your posts seem to be comprehensive and well thought out, unlike alot of guys who post here who just want to curse and call them cheaters and say they should be thrown in jail. I'm just saying there's alot of variables in poker and you have to realize that. Back to my original point the perfect example of that is your k4 v AA thing. You think the better player obviously has AA but that is in fact not at all true, he just got lucky to pick up AA in that spot. For all we know, the same guy might make the same call with qj suited and be behind the k4.


Denethor
May 6, 2009
In response to VA Poker:

I wasn't trying to talk about the proper way to play pocket AAs preflop. That had nothing to do with my post. I was simply pointing out that it's not like the sites would have nothing to gain from having the sites reward bad play.

My point was that, as many have said before me, these poker sites need the masses to be pleased with their play and their results. If people find out that they have to actually devote some time to learning the game or they will lose all the time, they will not play.

The system doesn't have to be told who is "good" or who is "bad". That is making things far too complicated and is not at all necessary. The site only needs to systematically provide miracle turn and river outs that would never happen in real poker. The players who would be the recipients of these magic bad beats would obviously be the players who made bad decisions. Instead of losing because of their mistakes and allowing good players to benefit from exploiting those mistakes, the system would bail them out.

You say the better player doesn't always have the best hand but isn't that what constitutes the "better player"? And, in my example, didn't the better player have the best hand? Are you saying that K4 is a better hand than AA?


VA Poker
May 6, 2009
First of all anyone can call with aces, doesnt make you a good player. "joe" doesn't have to know "bob" will play any hand to call with aces, you call with aces everytime pre flop no matter what. Secondly, my point is that the more loose play you see the higher volume of bad beats you will see, I didn't say it increased the percentages of bad beats just the volume and you can't possibly dispute that. Finally, how do you think these sites tell who the "joes" are and who the "bobs" are? Do you think they employ thousands of people to go through every players hand history and peg them as a joe or a bob and decide who to cheat and who to make win? The better player doesn't ALWAYS have the best hand. You can be the most patient player ever, finally pick up KK and run it into AA. So what if the better player has KK does FTP know that or do they give him the king on the flop anyway? Most of these complainers play low stakes, FTP has very high stakes tourneys and cash game thats where they make most of their money. However, you would have us believe they are expending vast resources to make sure the bad penny stakes players are beating the good penny stakes players. Please enlighten me as to how you think the rigging works? Alllll these complainers no one has told me how they figure out who is good and who is bad. I'd really like to hear it.

Denethor
May 6, 2009
I am pretty new to poker (online or otherwise) so I understand that my comments probably won't carry much weight. I found this page when I started doing some searching because I was becoming so disillusioned with poker in general after playing on FTP.

To me, it seems that there are plenty of advantages to orchestrating the outcome of hands. The biggest of these being that the goal of the site is mass traffic - not a small group of elite players competing with one another.

Imagine two individuals become interested in poker and begin playing on FTP. Bob is in marketing, is a people person, and has always been told he is "lucky". He sees a heads-up tournament and thinks he could have some fun and probably get lucky and maybe even rich and famous at that. Joe is in accounting, is a numbers person, and likes odds and puzzles. He thinks that, with an understanding of the underlying fundamentals and odds, he could probably make a little money every now and then in addition to the enjoyment of playing the odds.

Both are in a tournament on FTP. Bob is dealt K4s and Joe is dealt AA. Bob knows nothing about the strength of his hand or odds and is out-of-position but thinks he remembers his favorite pro shoving all-in last weekend with K4s. Joe is in late position and knows Bob has been playing every hand he gets so he calls all-in. Both players show their cards.

Now, let's follow two different scenarios. In the first, the flop comes 39J rainbow, the turn comes 4h, and the rivers comes Qs. Joe is rewarded for his research and patience and wins with AA. Joe continues to play the same way and increases his skill. Bob is disappointed and assumes it is just bad luck. He catches a break everyone once in a while, but just continues to lose and ultimately gets bored. He think that he's just not lucky.

In the second scenario, the flop immediately comes KK2 giving Bob three of a kind, the turn comes Js, and (to add insult to injury) the river comes 4d. Bob wins with his miraculous full house, congratulates himself on his luck, can brag about his "great hand" to his coworkers, and keeps playing the same way. Joe is crushed, but knows he made the right call. He knows that if he plays enough, he SHOULD come out ahead as long as he plays the right way.

I can guarantee you that there will be far more Bobs than Joes. So, clearly, it would be in the best interest of FTP to artificially keep the Bobs winning against ridiculous odds. If Bob loses, he won't think that he should research his odds and play more carefully - he'll just quit. When Joe loses, he'll continue playing knowing that the odds SHOULD be in his favor.

I'm no statistics guru, but it seems to me that the argument that more bad players equates to more bad beats doesn't make sense. I would think that more bad players should mean more reward for those who play correctly. That never seems to be the case, though.


VA Poker
May 5, 2009
Considering the fact that I was mocking you, wack job psycho was exactly what I was going for. Do you really think FTP owes you anything? If you live in the USA you are breaking the law by playing real money on their site and you want to audit their records. You are clearly insane and believe the world revolves around you and your penny stakes poker losses. MAYBE YOU JUST AREN'T AS GOOD AS YOU THINK YOU ARE. I actually have played on full tilt the past month just because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I deposited 400 and started playing 1/2 cash games. After over 100 hours of play I'm up well over 1500. By the way, how old are you? Are you really calling me a "retard". I have a SPECIAL NEEDS daughter, not a retarted daughter as you would put it and people like you make me sick.

nitemare6
May 5, 2009
You and your comments sound like you're a whack-job, psycho.

I haven't played a cash game on FTP for about 5 months, and when I did play it's small games and mostly cash tournaments. I never played more than one table except a few times in over FOUR years - u fking a-wipe retard!

You certainly must be some retard that gets paid by the corrupt, scumbag cheaters who run full rigged tilt poker site. Go ahead - admit it! It's so obvious anyway.

LOL


VA Poker
May 5, 2009
nitemare6,
I have played with you on full tilt and you are a cheater, you play 2 computers at once and you cheat. you are a cheater. you cheat, you are a cheater. how you like those apples? Why don't you admit that you are a cheater? I want to audit your hand h istory to prove you're a cheater but you won't let me. Why not?


nitemare6
May 5, 2009
VA Poker- Full Rigged Tilt is RIGGED. There is ZERO doubt about that... how about those apples.

The only reason excuse-niks like you can deend this corrupt site is becuase of some vague notion that unless you prove it by x trillion hands then it is not fixed. Sorry I will stick with anecdotal and experience over 5 years on this rigged site to make a decision not to play there.

The only thing that angers meis how they can get away without provding ANY audited data and none of the pros ever address the notion of a rigged online poker site. Why won't hey provde audited data, and respond to so many allegations of a rigged and/or non-random, RNG.

WHY
WHY

THAT ALONE is sufficient for me to not want to ply there. IF this was a legitimate site then they would "defend" it more. But they are making so much money due to the popularity of poker and the will rogers concept that "there is a sucker is born everyday", they can get away with rigged poker.

But let's get to the bottom line: DO YOU make money at FTP. What games do you play in? Do you NOT see many many more beats, suck-outs and inexplicable hands on FTP that cannot be accounted for simply by more deals... then we ever see live games? If not then you must be blind or naive or work for them!


Cransley69
May 5, 2009
You miss the point entirely VA Poker. I didn't go into details about the betting patterns for the big PP hands - some were people all-in before the flop with their holdings - what are you going to do then, fold pocket Aces to an all-in bet before the flop?

The fact is, whether or not you ever fold a big PP like Aces(and I do, on occasions) if you were to see them out, come what may, to the river, they should still win 82% of the time against any other holding when you are heads-up.

Statistically, over several months and thousands of hands, that is not happening.

We should all expect suck-outs against a better hand, but those suck-outs should, over time, be representative of the odds of that happening. On this site that doesn't seem to happen.

Finally, in the final example of pocket kings, my read, and my play was correct - that I was ahead and I needed to raise a significant amount to take the odds away from the opponent with his drawing hand. I did that twice - on the flop and on the turn. He stayed with me both times against the odds and gets rewarded for it.

Now that can happen, but over time, playing that hand identically, I should get rewarded for the opponent playing the wrong side of the odds. I played like that for several years at the Bike and got paid off for it. Play that way at Full Tilt and you don't. Something stinks!


VA Poker
May 5, 2009
Why did you preface your statement talking about your winnings? Are you saying just because you had a few winning years that any game you don't win in is automatically rigged? There's no way its legit unless you are taking home 35k a year. Haven't you heard of guys who made millions playing poker and lost every penny of it the same way? So let me get something straight, first you said those pp's got cracked over a few days, then you said it was five consecutive pp's. Are you saying you only had 5 pp's over a matter of days and it was aces or kings everytime? Unless thats the case it was not in fact 5 consecutive pp's so your 3000:1 thing is completely wrong. One thing that jumped out at me is that every pot you lost you knew what the other guy had, meaning you stayed in the hand until the showdown everytime. Have you ever heard of folding a big pp at any point in the hand? If a guys betting big after the river all you can beat is a bluff with aces. But why examine your own play when you can just complain that the site is somehow rigged against you. Maybe all you guys should start a support group. Here's what I don't understand, even if you are sure its rigged, why don't you just not play there? Instead you come on here acting like they owe you some kind of explaination for getting your aces cracked. People are always on here talking about aces getting cracked but they are usually overplaying them. Unless you are deep in a tournament when the stacks are getting short aces aren't always your best friend. Not being able to lay down aces at any point in a hand will get you stacked off over and over again I don't care where you play.

Cransley69
May 4, 2009
I have played texas holdem for ten years, including a period living in LA where I supplimented my income playing at the Bicycle Casino ($3&5 blinds) in the evenings after work and AVERAGED $35,000 per year profit(I kept a very detailed spreadsheet).

I returned to the UK on business and there is little access to live cash games around here, so I started playing on-line. FTP has the best user interface, but boy is it rigged. I literally cannot win. I can take down small pots, but get me into a hand where the chips are all going in the middle and I just say goodbye to them.


For example, take this run of hands from the last couple of days: Pocket Aces beaten by pocket fours (opponent flopped a set) Pocket Aces beaten by AQ (opponent flopped a straight) Pocket Kings beaten by pocket queens (opponent flopped a set) Pocket Aces beaten by 7,8 (opponent turned a straight after calling an all-in bet) Each time heads-up, and without any winning pocket Ace or King hands at all in between. Then to top it all, last night I flop a full house with pocket 2's, end up all-in after the flop - way ahead - and the board goes runner,runner to a bigger full house for my opponent.

Then, finally, just now, had pocket Kings again, raised to three times the BB, got one caller out of position, flop comes 10,4,3 with two clubs.

I bet the pot, he calls,, turn is a blank. I go all-in (3 times the pot), he calls with A,8 clubs. River card is a club.

Just the 5 consecutive pocket pairs beaten in a row where they were 82% to win each time, equates to odds of over 3000 to 1, never mind the flopped full house that was 98% to win as well.

Someone's making money out of Full Tilt, but it ain't me, and when my current buy in is gone, I'm going somewhere else more reasonable. Anyone recommend any sites?


egrimpe
Emails to Full Tilt - No Response April 26, 2009
Third time now. Check out hand #11888702469. Pocket Kings. All in after the flop called with secod pair to my overpair. Opponent immediately turns two pair with all chips in the pot. This can not be explained by random selection. Will you respond???

Dominate11

From:
************
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:51:42 PM
Subject: Re: Fair Play

Just happened again. Second very bad beat against an all in player in the last 45 minutes.


***************************
To: feedback@fulltiltpoker.com
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:15:10 PM
Subject: Fair Play

How do we know that the selection of cards is fair and random. It appears, and the online chat seems to support, that the frequency of low probability hands connecting, particularly after all the chips are in, is way above normal percentages. Is there any way to prove the game is fair and card selection is random?










egrimpe
Full Tilt is Bogus April 26, 2009
No way this site is fair. The bad beats are ridiculous. I don't see anything like this playing live poker. When you get ejected from 6 of the last ten games on horrific bad beats, it just can't be explained. If you wind up all in against a 2-4 outer, you hope to win half the time. No one can convince me this is random. The obvious incentive to tilt the game towards the bad players is to keep them coming back for more. when will this finally be exposed?

nitemare6
April 26, 2009
Full Rigged Tilt is a scam site. Scumbags run it. IMHO.

The "professional" poker players who tout Full Tilt on the TV ("we play at full tilt poker") are laughable! These guys have little or no integrity, and have forgotten what the truth is. After all they are POKER PLAYERS! They are used to misrpresenting. They are no more than compulsive gamblers who got lucky to be involved in poker at a time when they get publicity and can earn $$ form other sources than playing poker. I would love to talk with so called "jesus" ferguson and have him answer questions about his rigged poker site. Why does anyone think he is more honest or honorable than the worst CFO during the Wall Street scam years??!

Many of them got indicted years later for fraud, and, in my opinion, IF FTP was within the jurisdiction of the US the owners of F-R-T -and- the poker charlatans (so-called poker "pros") who misrepresent and support this scam site, would also get indicted, eventually.

I agree that these scumabgs will eventually be exposed as corrupt.

Meanwhile I canot play on this site. Its a total joke, and thus... no fun. I am playing live games and enjoy it more.......... EVEN WHEN I get a bad beat or sucked-out. I still feel better knowing that the deck is not rigged by some technology.

On FRT, on the other hand, when I get sucked-out by a ONE or TWO outer repeatedly, there is NO doubt in my mind that it IS a rigged deck/deal.

What fun is that trying to beat a rigged system. Good play doesn't matter on this corrupt site!


what odds
April 25, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
eldave, I understand what you are saying and i can clearly see that you are not alone. However, in my opinion a lot of those things you are saying can be explained. There is so much bad play online that many bad beats are bound to happen and when you run really bad you run way worse than you ever will during live games, Ive been there too. I just think the only difference between internet play and live play is the way people play and solid players tend to remember the terrible beats and forget the many many times a horrible play throws you all his chips. As far as the cashout thing goes in my opinion its psychological. Lets say you play 1/2 cash games and you have 1000 in you account and decide to take 500 out. All of the sudden you only have 250 big blinds and you start to play scared because no one wants to bust. Like you said nobody knows for sure and I don't think we will ever be in agreement unless proof comes out one way or another. I just hope you and the other guys who are sure it is rigged will atleast think about what I said, I'm sure I won't convert any of you but its just something to think about.
This is the common argument FTP will answer with and 'the bad players = mor bad beats' answer is actually completely inaccurate.

Yes, more bad beats happen when playing bad players, but you also win a shit load more as well when hands hold up as well. You'll be getting all in plenty of times often with very good equity edges and you'll grind profits.

I think PS offers a good and fair game. I don't play there but have done so in the past. Open up a few NL4 tables there, play a shit load of hands- the opposition is terrible, you'll get sucked out on from time to time by a bad player chasing against the odds, but over a few thousands hands your equity edge on these hands will SHINE through...every site I've played this has been the case and you can witness your bankroll grow.

At FTP, this doesn't happen. The bad beats keep coming, the cooler hands keep coming and eventually it gets to the point where it is enough to piss off the good humour man.

Every thread like this, someone comes on, disses people, calls them ignorant, tries to defend the site in question and they don't offer anything other than the comments like bad players = more bad beats.

Bad players= more profit, that is what bad players equals...unless you play at FTP.

I've played sessions on sites where I lose in succession and it can be annoying but you accept it as part of poker...the variance of poker, the thing that keeps the bad players coming back as they think they have a chance of winning.

FTP takes this too far, bad players do far better than they should (perhaps why the site is so popular?), winnings players win nowhere near as much as they should (TAG players this is, those who rely on showdown winnings for the majority of their profits)....

I've played sessions and literally laughed out loud at things I've seen bad beats that come in such a small sample size, all bunched together that just literally defy logic. You know the odds and these things happen, but when it happens every 1/7 sessions you have to question the integrity of the game...

I am confident they will be exposed soon.


what odds
April 25, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
You throw out a couple of examples of your hands (actually you didn't even give real examples) and you claim you KNOW its rigged because of a few of your hands. If full tilt is anything like pstars they have close to 30,000 tables going at once during peak hours. Thats roughly 50,000 hands per hour. Unless you have all the data for every hand it is completely ignorant of you to post that you KNOW its rigged. You say its rigged to make you tilt, maybe thats just your personality. Truly good players hardly ever tilt reguardless of the situation. I don't have a problem with people posting their hands and questioning the integrity of full tilt based on those, but for you to say you are sure its rigged based on the microspopic number of hands youve played (in relation to the total hands on the site) is absolutely self centered and ignorant. How would you like it if we were sitting at a table together and I accused you of cheating based on such little info?
Is this aimed at me?

Have you even played at FTP?

I am a player that identifies tilt and quits the session. I never said I personally tilted although I will admit I have done on a few occasions. I am a winning cash game player- in fact I'd class myself as semi pro. If I am close to tilting or even doing so, I quit the session to cool off- like any other player would do.

I have won money at every single site I've played at except FTP. I have over 100,000+ hand samples for every site I've played, close to 300,000 at FTP. Never had one winning month at FTP, not one.

Am I to believe that the players at FTP are tougher than all other sites even though some players will happily stack off with high cards and hit runner runner straights.

Players who win a shit load of money playing like an absolute clown in a small sample size then dissappear off the site never to be seen again?

Also, I have PokerEV stats that proved to me how bad this site is. I came back after a few months of not playing FTP just to give it one more go (this was January 2009)- low stakes games, with a Short Stack Strategy- just to test how I run in these games.

I had to quit the test because after just a few thousand hands I was a full 27 buy ins down on all in EV equity...there is no point posting hand histories because they prove nothing. A one outer HH proves nothing because one outers do occur.

There is nothing ignorant about my post, I truly believe from my own experience that FTP is rigged, I have played close to a million hands in my time over many sites, FTP just doesn't feel right.

In my last 15,000 hands of online poker at the site I play at now, I have taken 3 2 outer bad beats...just 3. At FTP, you could take 3 of those in an hour! And on a regular basis!

IF YOU WANT PROOF DO THIS-

Just open the site, open up 4 tables of say NL25 and watch the action.

Everytime there is an all in, record the cards and the result.

As I have already said, EV in the long term evens out, FTP aren't idiots, they balance everything out over the long term. What you will see emerge from the records you keep is that certain % hands will hold up better than others, whilst the lower % shots will hit way more than they should. This creates tilt.

Just do it and then comment before dismissing this. 2 outers on FTP have way more equity than they should, to the point where it is almost comical.

Also, as a semi pro player, if I didn't believe the site was rigged, I'd still be there. Thry have the best software on th enet, they offer the 2nd best Rakeback deal on the net, if they offered a fair game, it would be in my best interest to play there- you get a $1,200 yearly bonus and 27% dealt RB, paid weekly! Nowhere else will you find this...but I don't play there, I take my play elsewhere where I get less bonus and less RB but at least I feel I get a fair game.


buck22
April 24, 2009
I've been playing poker long enough to know when i'm outclassed or have met my match. I wrote on here how fulltilt screwed me and how i moved $200 to ipoker and grinded it up to $2500 only playing 5% of my bankroll, over about 400 games, profiting at 50c/$1 games, i banked out $2300 to start again and now 200 games in ive made zilch, completely broke even, playin $10 games!
I am convinced online poker is rigged, not just full tilt. I'll never play higher than $5 online ever again. Below are 2 tables of $10 heads up games at the same site (ipoker), my initial profit when joining the site, and my current profit after banking out. Im no maths genius but, same game, same stake, shouldnt the results be roughly the same.


Games Staked Profit Time %roi Profit/hr
1. 94 994.5 193.18 15.95 19.43 12.12
2. 84 871.5 -61.5 19.9 -7.06 -3.09

The difference is rediculous, i banked out $260 and am only playing live.

Also, when changing sites i notice $11 seems to vanish into thin air when full tilt is involved, wonder where it goes, cheeky sods, rig the games then carve off a nice slice when you leave. So sick of online poker,im done with it.


VA Poker
the world doesn't revolve around you... April 23, 2009
You throw out a couple of examples of your hands (actually you didn't even give real examples) and you claim you KNOW its rigged because of a few of your hands. If full tilt is anything like pstars they have close to 30,000 tables going at once during peak hours. Thats roughly 50,000 hands per hour. Unless you have all the data for every hand it is completely ignorant of you to post that you KNOW its rigged. You say its rigged to make you tilt, maybe thats just your personality. Truly good players hardly ever tilt reguardless of the situation. I don't have a problem with people posting their hands and questioning the integrity of full tilt based on those, but for you to say you are sure its rigged based on the microspopic number of hands youve played (in relation to the total hands on the site) is absolutely self centered and ignorant. How would you like it if we were sitting at a table together and I accused you of cheating based on such little info?

what odds
April 23, 2009
I've already posted here...I am proud to say I haven't played on FTP since end of January this year and I just want to confirm Buck 22 as he gets this perfect.

FTP is designed to make you tilt. Tilting players = massive rake for the site.

You can literally feel the difference in this site to others.

2 and 3 outer bad beats occur rarely in real life. Thry happen, but rarely. Very, very rarely will you take 2 or more 2 outers in a row.

Only on FTP will you run OK for a few sessions then it almost feels like the software is acting to even up the odds so you run into crazy 2 outers- but hands were you are guaranteed to lose money.

Such as you call a players raise with 99. flop is 9 8 4. You get it all in on the flop vs QQ and turn = Q. Fair enough, but then you get AA all in vs AKs pre flop and they flop a flush. OK I can take that. But then you get a set of queens all in on the flop vs a gut shot that hits on the river...you see where I'm going with this??

You can sit there and just repeatedly run into absolute nonsense coolers and bad beats.

I've played a LOT of hands at a lot of sites and FTP is by far the worst in terms of dodgy hands.

PokerEV only tells half the story, what happens when you just run bad in terms of coolers- the stats just show you getting it in bad but it was a hand where the money had to go all in, such as KK on a KAAT board after you 3 bet pre flop etc...but they just happen to have the AT...

I think the final straw for me was when I played a SSS to purposely monitor all in EV...I did it at NL25.

It is my belief short stack players in cash games get fucked over so much it isn't even funny. The reason is that a lot of players run SSS bots on FTP. Thry have made the software now in a way that SSS will not win. I only managed a few thousand hands because I was 27 buy ins out of all in equity.

AA vs QQ all in pre flop, he'd make a straight.

Top set all in vs gut shot, he'd get there.

Set all in vs high cards, running cards for straight.

And on and on and on...

It says a lot when I am a semi professional TAG cash game player yet refuse to play at a site that offers the second best rakeback deal on the internet...

FTP has to be exposed son, surely...?


always_mt
April 20, 2009
go look at the opr for my acct and then i will tell everyone what i know about the site and the way it all works always_mt full tilt and party poker

eldave1
April 19, 2009
Alright - they win - I can't even use this site for practice it is so rigged. There will be a lawsuit one day. The hand below is the last straw. I had played about 10 percent of the pot - very tight. I get AK suited on the button and raise it 3 times the BB. Mauiboy shoves all in over me with J 8 offsuit - Not call - not raise - all foking in with j 8 offsuit. The flop comes A, K, 4 - rainbow. After the flop I am a 98% favorite. I say to my self - here it comes - turn q triver 10 - I wrote it foking doen on a scratch pad - sure as shit - that is exactly what happened. I am done - if you think this is legit - you're nuts. It just happens too many times. Not the fact that I could lose a hand like that - but the fact that someone shoves over a preflop raise with j 8 offsuit and catches the miracle like they always foking do on this site - they know what cards are coming!!!!!!!


Full Tilt Poker Game #11774302861: $30 + $3 Sit & Go (88305811), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:54:19 ET - 2009/04/19
Seat 1: Max The OG (1,891)
Seat 2: Bighousejim (940)
Seat 5: eldave1 (1,253)
Seat 6: bjrnet (2,444)
Seat 7: Mauiboy23 (1,650)
Seat 8: RiVeR_pok (3,350)
Seat 9: TheHuncher (1,972)
bjrnet posts the small blind of 50
Mauiboy23 posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ac Kc]
RiVeR_pok folds
TheHuncher folds
Max The OG folds
Bighousejim folds
eldave1 raises to 300
bjrnet folds
Mauiboy23 raises to 1,650, and is all in
eldave1 calls 953, and is all in
Mauiboy23 shows [Jc 8h]
eldave1 shows [Ac Kc]
Uncalled bet of 397 returned to Mauiboy23
*** FLOP *** [As 4c Kh]
*** TURN *** [As 4c Kh] [Qd]
*** RIVER *** [As 4c Kh Qd] [Td]
Mauiboy23 shows a straight, Ace high
eldave1 shows two pair, Aces and Kings
Mauiboy23 wins the pot (2,556) with a straight, Ace high
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,556 | Rake 0
Board: [As 4c Kh Qd Td]
Seat 1: Max The OG didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Bighousejim didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: eldave1 (button) showed [Ac Kc] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 6: bjrnet (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: Mauiboy23 (big blind) showed [Jc 8h] and won (2,556) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 8: RiVeR_pok didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: TheHuncher didn't bet (folded)


buck22
April 15, 2009
Dunno why I come on here, lol, we'll never get to the bottom of it. All I know is when playing other sites I get bad beat 3 or 4 times a day with an oober beat every other day or once a week. On full tilt i'll go days without a bad beat then a wave of oober-beats kick in. It's not so much that these bad beats are in a row (random numbers rarely look random) but its the 10% and lesses in a row. I would say half the days i play on this site i get 4 or more 8% beats and 6-8 bad beats.
Im stuck in this stupid back and forth thought motion of 'it cant be rigged, why would they do that' and 'its right infront of my eyes, this is nearly impossible to run like this on a daily basis, im never playin on here again!'
It pees my off because fulltilt has awsome software design, great functions and lots of player traffic, but i have to stick to sh*t, old school software sites that dont have the foggiest how to run a propper poker site.


eldave1
April 14, 2009
Havn't heard of that site - I'll check i t out - thanks

VA Poker
April 13, 2009
Maybe the guy would have called a healthy re raise, maybe he wouldn't have but my point was that the guy has no room to complain because he priced the guy into the pot. If he had made a bigger raise, gotten the call then got sucked out on I could see his complaint. To be honest with you, I don't play on full tilt, never have. I play on playersonly on the cake network. Not to brag or anything but I am a winning player online as well as live although I do play with a different style online. I don't keep my hand histories or anything but have been playing atleast 20 hours a week on this site for 2 years and can tell you that although Ive taken my share of beats I think my stats would be pretty much what you would expect, not like yours on full tilt. Also, when I am in tourneys or sit n go's and I look a players stats up the guys who are playing poorly usually have a bad roi and the guys playing well usually have a good one. Maybe you should switch to playersonly or another site and give full tilt a rest.

eldave1
April 13, 2009
Don't really know if the guy knew what was coming or not. VA Poker is dead right if it is a live game - pop the guy 3 or 4 times his raise and he is gone. The problem with FT is that it doesn;t matter - I pretty much am sure that had he raised a $1,000 or even all in he gets the same call and the fella gets the same reward.

Bad moves simply get rewarded on FT and good moves get punished - period.

The classic is when someone shoves all in to a potential set (e.g.,you have A 7 - he has K - 3 and the flop comes K - 5- 6). The guy with the sucky K shoves (a horrible play by any standard) -you tremble and call and as soon as you do the K hits the turn. Peace - out. Never fails. Or the classic I got the underpair - fok I'll shove. You have A-K, they have J-J. You call pre-flop raise, flop comes A - K rag and bam - tehy instant shove. You call - turn of course is J. And it please understand - I don't think it's just poor old eldave - I jsut sit at my computer and call out the rapings for all the players as they come. Keep track - you will see that poor play is paid off.


VA Poker
April 13, 2009
jaywepp, you said the guy made it 200 utg and you raised it to 400, that means even if there were no antes, after your re raise there was atleast around 700 in the pot with your raise and the blinds. It was only 200 for him to call giving him 3.5:1 odds. Which by the way would give him the right odds to call even though you had him dominated. You called significant but it was basically a min raise I don't see why you would do that unless you had kings or aces and wanted him in the hand. Did you really expect a guy raise 200 utg then fold to a raise 200 more? You are going to get a call 9 times out of 10 there reguardless of what the guy is holding. Your claim that the guy somehow knew that his 2 pair was coming doesnt really make any sense. Maybe you should look at your own play instead of claiming people are magically seeing the future. You could have flat called pre flop and maybe you wouldnt have went broke, you could have made a real raise pre flop and he probably would have laid it down. In my opinion your raise was very strange and his call was very standard.

Soaring_Eagle
April 10, 2009
I've played on full tilt off and on for a couple years and I've had some of the same experiences that have been posted. However, about six months ago I changed my approach to the game. When I'm in a game with people playing loose and just throwing chips around, I take a more passive approach. Yeah the experts say you should play raise or fold poker, but to what point? Let's say you have AK in early position in a 1/2 nl game. Two people fold, you raise to 7 and get 5 callers and the blinds fold. The flop is A 10 7 rainbow. Pretty safe right? But what is your next move? You don't want to let any draws in, and you know as well as I do that even some people with KJ would call a 15 dollar bet. Say you bet 30. A10 is a possible hand and they would probably raise you, but so would AQ. The point is I avoid building big pots with players who play marginal hands. It's not hard to get paid off so wait until you have more then top pair. Some of these posts are unavoidable, and yeah it sucks, but it's just the nature of the beast. Lastly I want to point out some of the terrible players that you see in the WSOP. I've seen people who were flat out gambling on a lot of hands, and yet some how they make it deep into the tournament. Part of the problem is people get frustrated and make a point to go after them. Just let them come to you. They can't resist. So to wrap this up I want to leave you a guideline that comes right out of Super System. "Don't play big pots without big hands"

jaywepp
April 9, 2009
I know this might not appear to be the bad beat that we are all talking about... But I think it goes to showing something is fishy in terms of people knowing whats happening.

Playing a 20 sit and go... about 7 folks left... I get ACE Queen off in the BB. Guy in first position raises to 200... goes around the table and no callers... I raise to 400... the guy calls.

Flop comes 5 Q 9 rainbow.... I bet 500... Get a call. G0es to the turn and it's something trandom, but not an overcard... Go all in... He calls... Guy played Queen Nine.

Again, maybe it's being a little too conspiracy theorish.. but you're going to tell me a guy at a 20 table in 1st position calls a re-raise of his queen nine... a significant re-raise at that? Something tells me he knew what was coming.


nitemare6
April 8, 2009
well, I just withdrew my small account from full tilt.

I played in two small tournies tonght ot pass time. I am on button and get an all-in bet from BB with AQ off-suit. I call him since I have watched him play and figure 8s were best, and gotta hold up ONE time on this garbage site. LOL

But each time I have 8s tonight they fail to hold up (this was 2nd small tournament tonight where I busted with 8s). Sure... they lose in live games also sometimes. But I have not played on FRT in a long time, and yet soon as I play there again the same stuff occurs with pp losing to donk bets/calls.

It's just no fun, for me. Really isn't when you can't trust a dealing system.

What guy goes all-in from BB with AQ off-suit in a tournamnet. Not one pro would do that in any tournament. unless they wer heads-up or down to final 4 maybe. Yet Full Rigged continues to reward these donks. You might as well play craps than play on Full Rigged. Good poker or better poker does not count on this site, for much.

Only time it counts is when I bluff or check-raise.

Otherwise in a favorable odds situation, you are ass-backwards on this garbage site!

b.t.w the guy who went all-in had only a few chips more than me so he risked it all for no reason. yet the DONK TILT site rewarded his poor play.

Of course I dodn't have to call. BUT I WAS a 55/45 favorite to win. So it wasn't a bad call. I did have the best hand after all.

IF he had a pp JJ or 10s etc. then it would have been a poor call. But he didn't as I expected fro watching him play. But it didn't matterl this site is programmed to hit the players in the hands so that they create bigger pots and bigger rakes.

Also, I do not think it is good practice.


mrkromer
April 8, 2009
Fair enough. Good luck at the tables.

mike


eldave1
April 7, 2009
That's a fair question Sir. Take this as you will. I play live tourneys about five times a week and I make pretty decent money at it (there are several local casinos where I live). I play cheap on-line games as a form of practice (even though I think it is rigged)because it teaches you valuable stuff. For example, you learn to play very close attention to betting patterns since it is the only "tell" available. That carries over nicely to live games. You learn to play with donks (or at least avoid some of the donk pitfalls) since there are so many. You learn odds since you can take your time looking them up (poker academy has a nice tool for this) after hands are played - can't so that live. All that being said - I do not think it is random. Good practice nonetheless.

mrkromer
April 7, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldave1 View Post
And just as a follow-up. - this is exactly what I am talking about. There is one player to go from the bubble. Dama1 calls the preflop raise with QJ, out of position - flop misses him entirely so of course he pushes all in out of position. And of course he wins on the winner as a 94% DOG.

I go out on bubble. Yep - this of course happens. However - the problem is that on FT it happens ALL THE TIME. The inexplicable play follwed by the inevitable reward.


*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Jc Js]
rjf2427 folds
Paolello folds
eldave1 raises to 3,000
PoketAAK folds
sHoA folds
9er_CHECK folds
dama1 calls 2,500
CutUrHeadOff has 15 seconds left to act
CutUrHeadOff folds
*** FLOP *** [3h 7c 5d]
dama1 bets 8,000
eldave1 calls 7,389, and is all in
dama1 shows [Jd Qd]
eldave1 shows [Jc Js]
Uncalled bet of 611 returned to dama1
*** TURN *** [3h 7c 5d] [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [3h 7c 5d Tc] [Qs]
dama1 shows a pair of Queens
eldave1 shows a pair of Jacks
dama1 wins the pot (22,778) with a pair of Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22,778 | Rake 0
Board: [3h 7c 5d Tc Qs]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Jc Js] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 2: PoketAAK folded before the Flop
Seat 3: sHoA folded before the Flop
Seat 4: 9er_CHECK (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: dama1 (small blind) showed [Jd Qd] and won (22,778) with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: CutUrHeadOff (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: rjf2427 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: Paolello folded before the Flop
Still playing, though, aren't you? You must not believe in the rigging too much.

mike


eldave1
April 7, 2009
And just as a follow-up. - this is exactly what I am talking about. There is one player to go from the bubble. Dama1 calls the preflop raise with QJ, out of position - flop misses him entirely so of course he pushes all in out of position. And of course he wins on the winner as a 94% DOG.

I go out on bubble. Yep - this of course happens. However - the problem is that on FT it happens ALL THE TIME. The inexplicable play follwed by the inevitable reward.


*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Jc Js]
rjf2427 folds
Paolello folds
eldave1 raises to 3,000
PoketAAK folds
sHoA folds
9er_CHECK folds
dama1 calls 2,500
CutUrHeadOff has 15 seconds left to act
CutUrHeadOff folds
*** FLOP *** [3h 7c 5d]
dama1 bets 8,000
eldave1 calls 7,389, and is all in
dama1 shows [Jd Qd]
eldave1 shows [Jc Js]
Uncalled bet of 611 returned to dama1
*** TURN *** [3h 7c 5d] [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [3h 7c 5d Tc] [Qs]
dama1 shows a pair of Queens
eldave1 shows a pair of Jacks
dama1 wins the pot (22,778) with a pair of Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22,778 | Rake 0
Board: [3h 7c 5d Tc Qs]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Jc Js] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 2: PoketAAK folded before the Flop
Seat 3: sHoA folded before the Flop
Seat 4: 9er_CHECK (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: dama1 (small blind) showed [Jd Qd] and won (22,778) with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: CutUrHeadOff (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: rjf2427 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: Paolello folded before the Flop


eldave1
April 6, 2009
Mike - (1) just for clarification, you are mixing two different posters (4 7 suited and the odds guy) (2) you are just wrong in terms of my post - my conclusions are not based on "perception". They are based on a detailed review of my actual hand histories. e.g., the odds of my overpair holding up against an underpair when 70% or more of the chips are at stake are considerably different, etc.). Admittedly, as I have said before these are my personal stats and do not mean anything in terms of the billions of hands played. But they are my real numbers - not my imagination.

To Buck - yes and the other pattern that continues is the low ROI players that you will see in the top 30 or so - something you defintely do not see live.


buck22
April 6, 2009
Im 100% now, had a disaster on my ipoker account and decided i needed a change of site just to cool off and rebuild. I put fiddy on full tilt and the two days on there were hilarious, except this time i sucked out loads.
I probably played about 8 hours total and saw about 4-5 runner runner straights on similar hands (both paired same card but weaker kicker sucked r-r straight)and about 8 AAorKK outdraws, all of them post flop ie definitely <18%.
I had a whale of a time outdrawing AA and flopped trips over 50% of the time i'd say.
I lost a chunk of my broll on ipoker about $1K due to bad luck and a loss of self control (well pi**ed off at myself) but in the 3 months ive been on ipoker i have never seen so many predictable suck outs as the 2 days i spent on FT.
Someone on here wrote that pokertracker didnt pick up anything special about preflop results but if there was some way of tracking 1000's of turns and rivers for all-in situations im so sure theres something fishy with the rng.
Ive posted ideas on here about how we could all be wrong about this, but its not the players or no. of hands seen or compiled, relatively short odds. The difference in feeling when playing ipoker and full tilt is like the difference in rolling a dice and flipping a coin, it feels soooo obvious!
Anyone noticed the pattern of there being quite a large gap of no suckouts and then an unnatural flip to <3%ers, its like the obvious trackable outdraws ie flushes, open end st8 draws all are correct, but there is an abundance of really unlikely outdraws. I think due to this, its under the radar.
It's such a shame cos FT and Stars are the the best sites for graphics, traffic, tournys etc. I would be on there every day if they went straight.


mrkromer
April 6, 2009
Yeah, you played 47 suited and the 4th spade hit the board, plus there's a pair on the board. Opponent could easily have boat or better, quit playing garbage and you won't get stacked so often.

The reason you think the odds are tilted more heavily when 70% or more of your stack is in the middle is because of perception. You remember those hands a whole lot more than when the pot was only a couple bucks. Quit getting it all in with a high pocket pair, in the end it's still just a pair.

mike


nitemare6
April 5, 2009
ben playing live tournaments lately. So this morning I go on Full RIgged.d FIRST hand in a small .25/.50 game I get 47s. Flop comes KQxs. I floped a flush with 5 playes in hand. Call the flop. Turn is a 4d. I bet pot. Get one call, one fold. Next card, sure enough is a fourth spade. Guy bets pot, I fold. In live game I might call, but on full rigged you gotta know the guy has a higher spade.

Garbage poker for the most part. LOL


eldave1
April 4, 2009
VA - first - to clarify - I am not certain it is rigged as I have no proof. If one only used my hands as the test results they would conclude that it is rigged as the odds do not reflect what one would expect to be statistically valid - so - maybe jsut my hands - but they are a joke. Especially, as I have posted before, in those situations where it is the big play (i.e., 70% or more of your chip stack at stake).

Anyway - i hope it is not rigged. I jsut believe it is - take care


VA Poker
April 4, 2009
eldave, I understand what you are saying and i can clearly see that you are not alone. However, in my opinion a lot of those things you are saying can be explained. There is so much bad play online that many bad beats are bound to happen and when you run really bad you run way worse than you ever will during live games, Ive been there too. I just think the only difference between internet play and live play is the way people play and solid players tend to remember the terrible beats and forget the many many times a horrible play throws you all his chips. As far as the cashout thing goes in my opinion its psychological. Lets say you play 1/2 cash games and you have 1000 in you account and decide to take 500 out. All of the sudden you only have 250 big blinds and you start to play scared because no one wants to bust. Like you said nobody knows for sure and I don't think we will ever be in agreement unless proof comes out one way or another. I just hope you and the other guys who are sure it is rigged will atleast think about what I said, I'm sure I won't convert any of you but its just something to think about.

eldave1
April 3, 2009
Hey VA - I never claimed it was rigged against me (personally) but rigged to support a certain stlye of play against a certain class of players. The class of players are those who have cashed out see prior posts). The style of play it favors is - well - best called "beginners".

First - many many reasons for rigging including rake, increasing player population, etc. etc - so I won't go into all these.

Keeping in mind that no-one has proof one way or the other because we don't have access to any hand histories but our own - the evidence to support it is rigged is antecdotal. There is no evidence to support it is not - so we are all pissing in the wind to some extent.

What you will see me and many of the other poster claims is that - based on their own experience - out of nowhere they were getting totally different results then they used to - in most cases this followed a cash out. The types of results:

* Could never win a race
* Got cracked by just inexplicable calls (KK cracked by someone who calls your all in with 7-3, etc).
* Get the unavoidable hands (KK in pocket - flop comes K 7 2 - get beat by 10 9 with runner runner straight.
* Solid players become shitty players - I used to be in the 98 percentile - now - can't win a $3 SNG after I cashed. Billy - a prior poster - wins $200K one year and now his stats suck after he cashed. I play live 4 times a week - the good players hit bad luck occassionally - they do not lose their entire game.

So - that is it - I do not think FT is set up to destroy eldave - however, I do not think it is random - I think it is cards dealt with a purpose. AND - I am obviously not alone in that regard.


VA Poker
why you? April 2, 2009
eldave, why does your site pick you to screw and every opponent you play to benefit? Do you think they have a personal vendetta against you? Even if it is rigges someone has to get screwed and someone has to benefit each time which gives you a 50 percent chance to benefit from the rigging. If that hand happened to me I would have cursed myself for callling a pot sized bet on the flop with a straight draw, sometimes that what you get, you could have just laid it down. For the record I'm not hired by a site to discount those who think online poker is rigged. I just don't understand how you guys think they decide who to rig and why you think they are rigging it against you EVERY time. I had AA yesterday in a 1/2 cash game ran up against KK we both were about 300 deep, it all gets in pre flop and he rivered a K. If that would have happened to one of you guys you would be screaming that its rigged. But the fact is he had a 20 percent chance to win, and this time happened to be one of those 20 percent. It happnens, I saw you post a hand on the previous page where you went all in with A rag, your oppenent had J10 and he won. So what? you were 60/40 do you expect to win that everytime. If you think its rigged don't play you don't have to play and come on here everytime you take a beat and cry that its rigged. Again I ask you why you? Why would they screw you over everytime they try to rig a hand? It makes zero sense unless you have a personal beef with one of the programmers or something

eldave1
March 30, 2009
So true Rusty - they program the action hands - the one I had below is illustrative - turn gives me nut straight and my opponent 2 pair - of course he hits his boat on the river - typical


Full Tilt Poker Game #11420744055: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (85788368), Table 2 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:45:52 ET - 2009/03/30
Seat 1: eqalizer (5,515)
Seat 2: silverfox432 (1,970)
Seat 3: mike10poker (940)
Seat 4: OutOfSpace (210), is sitting out
Seat 5: eldave1 (6,480)
Seat 6: BIGxDUKExSIX (920)
Seat 7: RiggaMorttis (2,325)
Seat 9: hongnhat (3,870)
BIGxDUKExSIX posts the small blind of 50
RiggaMorttis posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [As 9c]
hongnhat calls 100
eqalizer calls 100
silverfox432 folds
mike10poker calls 100
OutOfSpace folds
eldave1 calls 100
BIGxDUKExSIX calls 50
RiggaMorttis checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc Qs Jc]
BIGxDUKExSIX checks
RiggaMorttis checks
hongnhat has 15 seconds left to act
hongnhat bets 600
eqalizer has 15 seconds left to act
eqalizer folds
mike10poker folds
eldave1 calls 600
BIGxDUKExSIX folds
RiggaMorttis folds
*** TURN *** [Tc Qs Jc] [Kd]
hongnhat has 15 seconds left to act
hongnhat bets 1,000
eldave1 calls 1,000
*** RIVER *** [Tc Qs Jc Kd] [Kc]
hongnhat bets 2,170, and is all in
eldave1 calls 2,170
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hongnhat shows [Jh Kh] a full house, Kings full of Jacks
eldave1 mucks
hongnhat wins the pot (8,140) with a full house, Kings full of Jacks
eldave1 is feeling angry
eldave1: jesus foking christ
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8,140 | Rake 0
Board: [Tc Qs Jc Kd Kc]
Seat 1: eqalizer folded on the Flop
Seat 2: silverfox432 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: mike10poker folded on the Flop
Seat 4: OutOfSpace didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: eldave1 (button) mucked [As 9c] - a straight, Ace high
Seat 6: BIGxDUKExSIX (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: RiggaMorttis (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: hongnhat showed [Jh Kh] and won (8,140) with a full house, Kings full of Jacks


Rusty34
March 30, 2009
I'm not going to go into all of the rigged hands that I have had on Full Tilt, but I will go into how the rigging works. It's all pretty clever. Example: cracked Aces. Let's say there are 4 people left in a tourney and the chip stacks are equal. Your big blind and you get pockets aces. Of course this is your golden ticket. Your looking for some action. The first 2 guys fold and the small blind calls. You might do a small raise because you don't want the guy to fold. So let's say the guy had 10,J. The flop is 2, 4, 10. Bamm that guy hits top pair. He goes all in and you call. Domination!! Well, not on Full Tilt because he will hit his 3rd 10. It's virtually gauranteed. Now your out and you lost with pocket aces. The point I am trying to make is that the game is rigged for action. If your on the losing side, it will look like your a 98% favorite but you will lose. I was in a cash game. I had pocket 4's and I was against A,5. The flop came out 4,4,5. After some re-raises we ended up all in. The pot was over $200. OK showdown. The turn was a 5, followed by a 5 on the river. IS that even possible? Now this is where it is scary. I played in a 9-man $100 + $9 tournament. There was a pro in the room. He was highlighted in red and had his own icon. He was involved in 6 all-ins where he was the underdog and won all of them. I never challenged him because I knew the game wouldn't let me win. He was pocket 10's vs pocket aces. 10 on the river. etc.... you get my drift. Full Tilt is the only site that can make you doubt your own poker playing abilities. You think back to your hand and say, " I know I did the right thing!!!"

jaywepp
March 29, 2009
Hey Guys... I've read some of the posts about IPoker and want to play... but when i go to the site i can't figure out how to start playing for the life of me... am i missing something?

I went to ipoker.com


pisceandad
Fulltilts BS March 26, 2009
I thought I was going crazy with the constant screws I was getting on fullscrew.. er I mean fulltilt. After reading this board I have now come to realize it is not me and it is true the damn thing is rigged! Last time I was at the casino I walked out with $47 profit in my pocket! And that was playing for only a few hours. I am going to try ipoker since it seems people here have had some good experience with them. Thank you all for posting on fulltilts BS, I and my sanity truly appreciate it!!!

pisceandad
March 26, 2009
I thought I was going crazy with the constant screws I was getting on fullscrew.. er I mean fulltilt. After reading this board I have now come to realize it is not me and it is true the damn thing is rigged! Last time I was at the casino I walked out with $47 profit in my pocket! And that was playing for only a few hours. I am going to try ipoker since it seems people here have had some good experience with them. Thank you all for posting on fulltilts BS, I and my sanity truly appreciate it!!!

eldave1
March 24, 2009
This is what I mean by not passing the gut check and how final tables on on-line are filled with trash players (unlike live) and how that does not make sense. As a note, this is not a bitter post – just illustrative (I am actually quite happy having won a $10,000 live tourney last night).

Here is the anatomy of the typical FY ass rape. So – I am at the final table of a $3 satellite for $260 seat. I have 29K in chips, the next highest only has 11K. So – I say to my self – I’ll wait till I got a real good one. I basically don’t play a hand for the first 20 minutes.

Ass Rape One

Full Tilt Poker Game #11316121432: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (85030347), Table 2 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:43:27 ET - 2009/03/24
Seat 2: seedy58 (6,390)
Seat 3: eldave1 (26,145)
Seat 4: yancancris (9,450)
Seat 5: badbikerbob (8,120)
Seat 6: Anton_AY (9,590)
Seat 7: hammerinhank87 (3,450)
Seat 8: toplayr (12,880)
Seat 9: scheeraa (3,975)
seedy58 antes 75
eldave1 antes 75
yancancris antes 75
badbikerbob antes 75
Anton_AY antes 75
hammerinhank87 antes 75
toplayr antes 75
scheeraa antes 75
hammerinhank87 posts the small blind of 300
toplayr posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Jh Qh]
scheeraa folds
seedy58 raises to 1,200
eldave1 calls 1,200
yancancris folds
badbikerbob folds
Anton_AY folds
hammerinhank87 folds
toplayr folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc Th 7h]
seedy58 has 15 seconds left to act
seedy58 bets 5,115, and is all in
eldave1 calls 5,115
seedy58 shows [Jd Js]
eldave1 shows [Jh Qh]
*** TURN *** [Qc Th 7h] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [Qc Th 7h 8c] [Jc]
seedy58 shows three of a kind, Jacks
eldave1 shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
seedy58 wins the pot (14,130) with three of a kind, Jacks
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 14,130 | Rake 0
Board: [Qc Th 7h 8c Jc]
Seat 2: seedy58 showed [Jd Js] and won (14,130) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 3: eldave1 showed [Jh Qh] and lost with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 4: yancancris folded before the Flop
Seat 5: badbikerbob folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Anton_AY (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: hammerinhank87 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: toplayr (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: scheeraa folded before the Flop
================================================== =============
So – Seedy (a –45% ROI player) min raises with JJ – if she had raised anywhere in the 3 to 4 times the blind area or more (i.e., she shoved pre-flop) I fold. Not even in the hand. I can the min raise and get a monster flop. Seedy snap shoves all in – I call with top pair (queens) and flush draw. At this point in the hand I am a 93.9% favorite to win. I think to myself what a horrible play by Seedy – if she was going to shove – why not preflop instead of w hen there was an over card and a flush draw on the board – oh well.

Turn is 8 of clubs. No we both pick up gut shots but if the 9 hits I win because I have the Queen. Seedy is down to one card – the Jack of clubs.

River – Jack of Clubs!!!! I lose almost half of my once dominating stack.
================================================== =============
Ass Rape Two

Full Tilt Poker Game #11316167904: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (85030347), Table 2 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:46:05 ET - 2009/03/24
Seat 2: seedy58 (13,380)
Seat 3: eldave1 (19,605)
Seat 4: yancancris (9,225)
Seat 5: badbikerbob (7,895)
Seat 6: Anton_AY (8,165)
Seat 7: hammerinhank87 (2,925)
Seat 8: toplayr (11,755)
Seat 9: scheeraa (7,050)
seedy58 antes 100
eldave1 antes 100
yancancris antes 100
badbikerbob antes 100
Anton_AY antes 100
hammerinhank87 antes 100
toplayr antes 100
scheeraa antes 100
seedy58 posts the small blind of 400
eldave1 posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Tc Ts]
yancancris folds
badbikerbob folds
Anton_AY folds
hammerinhank87 folds
toplayr folds
scheeraa folds
seedy58 calls 400
eldave1 raises to 3,200
seedy58 calls 2,400
*** FLOP *** [6s 4d Ks]
seedy58 bets 10,080, and is all in
eldave1 has 15 seconds left to act
eldave1 has requested TIME
eldave1 folds
Uncalled bet of 10,080 returned to seedy58
seedy58 mucks
seedy58 wins the pot (7,200)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,200 | Rake 0
Board: [6s 4d Ks]
Seat 2: seedy58 (small blind) collected (7,200), mucked
Seat 3: eldave1 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: yancancris folded before the Flop
Seat 5: badbikerbob folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Anton_AY folded before the Flop
Seat 7: hammerinhank87 folded before the Flop
Seat 8: toplayr folded before the Flop
Seat 9: scheeraa (button) folded before the Flop
So – I start with pocket tens in the BB – Seedy (my good friend from earlier limps in on the small blind). I raise 8 times the BB. Seedy of course calls. The flop has one over – the K of spades. Seedy once again snaps shoves all in. I am convinced now that the FT server has decided that I will not be Seedy regardless – even though I think I have her beat – I fold and decide to just avoid her entirely the rest of the way. This is where FT foks with your mind so much (see prior hand) you stop playing normal.
================================================== =========
Ass Rape Three = prologue – this guy “badbikerbob” out of nowhere goes on an ungodly suck-out run – knocks out 5 players. I looked him up – he has a negative 100% ROI – he has played a few tourneys and has never cashed. It’s just heads up now between me an him. The negative ROI of 100% worries me – FT certainly wants to keep him around (at least until he cashes any real money). We go back and forth until this gem.

Full Tilt Poker Game #11316643765: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (85030347), Table 2 - 1200/2400 Ante 300 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:13:07 ET - 2009/03/24
Seat 3: eldave1 (34,200)
Seat 5: badbikerbob (45,800)
eldave1 antes 300
badbikerbob antes 300
badbikerbob posts the small blind of 1,200
eldave1 posts the big blind of 2,400
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Td Ts]
badbikerbob calls 1,200
eldave1 raises to 7,800
badbikerbob calls 5,400
*** FLOP *** [5h 3s 7d]
eldave1 bets 26,100, and is all in
badbikerbob calls 26,100
eldave1 shows [Td Ts]
badbikerbob shows [Ad 3d]
*** TURN *** [5h 3s 7d] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [5h 3s 7d 3c] [4h]
eldave1 shows two pair, Tens and Threes
badbikerbob shows three of a kind, Threes
badbikerbob wins the pot (68,400) with three of a kind, Threes
eldave1 stands up
badbikerbob stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 68,400 | Rake 0
Board: [5h 3s 7d 3c 4h]
Seat 3: eldave1 (big blind) showed [Td Ts] and lost with two pair, Tens and Threes
Seat 5: badbikerbob (small blind) showed [Ad 3d] and won (68,400) with three of a kind, Threes
================================================== =============
So – I raise the pot to badbiker after he limps in. I know I am suppose to shove with 10-10 heads up - but I also know from my FT life that this guy would call me with Ace - Joker. He calls my bet. Perfect flop for tens ( 5 – 3- 7 rainbow)! Okay – shove now and get it over with. I shove – Snap call from biker – he has A 3 suited diamonds but only one diamond on the board. He hit the three, had no draw and thought that it was worth calling for all of his chips an a board with two overs into a guy who had raised pre-flop (donkey). Okay – I’m a 74% favorite to win this one. I read it exactly right – he would have called with his A rag preflop because he was suited and no ace on the flop – only one diamond – yeah>

Turn 3 – he hits a set. Game over – I win $9 dollars and badbiker wins $260.

Good thing I have a live tourney tomorrow.


eldave1
March 22, 2009
That could be true Buck - but my gut tells me odds are odds whether you play cash or tourney. If your theory was correct, what I would expect to see is that - in most tourneys - I would stack up pretty quickly because I would get all of these horrible calls and win 4 out of five and by the time the tourney whittles down, generally solid players would be left and you would not see the - WTF calls - other then the occassional desperate short stack. Instead, you see a table full of folks with ratings of 60% or less and think how did they get here??

When I play live tourneys (about 4 times a week) there is a good representation of the usual suspects when the tourney gets down to 20% of the field with a few donks sprinkled in once in a while (which we hope for because we are looking for chip mines). When you get to that 20% (live) you do not get calls from folks with A 3 offsuit when you have shoved with KK because they would have not gotten that far in the tourney if that is how they played. On FullTilt - A 3 offsuit is the absolute nuts when it gets down to bubble time if:

a) you have played like shit the entire tourney
b) the guy your calling has QQ or better
c) you have won 2 or 3 absolute donk wins in the last few minutes.

So why does absolute trash players survive on Full Tilt and they do not in live games? Forget the odds - That is the part that gives me a feeling best described by Sulfy in a prior post- "but it's much like a baseball player estimating the speed of the ball when he's at bat or a pianist recognizing the pitch of a note that a song is projecting. When you've dealt with the subjects before, you develop a feeling of being able to approximate"

So - in live - as the tourney progresses the quality of play improves because in general the better players survive longer. At FT - the longer the tourney progresses the more wretched players exist and the odds of you getting beat by the guy who loves 8 - 3 increases. That is what I do not get - what hits the gut wrong. I do not mind losing AA to KK because I understand the call - that's poker and it happens to me live. I do mind losing AA to 10 4 offsuit when I was the first to put chips in the pot.

And again - to beat a dead horse - what myself and most the riggers can't get over as no matter how perfectly you play a hand and how many times you get all the $$ in with what seemed to be a nut flop - you get busted (e.g., AK flops AAK, you shove and 77 calls only to get running 7s). AND - it is the guy who wins crap pot after crap pot (like he has got a sheild around him). I know this is long winded - but on-line should represent live when it comes to the final results even though the game is faster. The qualtiy of play should improve as the field narrows - It don't - AND THAT - does not feel right in the gut.


buck22
March 22, 2009
I've been playin loads of cash games recently and have noticed bad beats occur once a day if that, the moment i play a tourny it's a bad beat a minute. Maybe the big factor isnt fulltilt but because you play nothing but tournys which consist mainly of loose, desperate players trying to double up every 15 minutes, also your hands have gotta stand up 10+ times in a row to see a final table. It seems that a combination of the sheer mass of players and frequent blind increases puts a large proportion of the game down to luck.

If you're playing cash and over five games you double up each time then lose the sixth, you'd shrug it off and say 'im up 4 buyins,woohoo!'. Double up five times in a tourny then bubble and suddenly its rigged.

Just a thought


nitemare6
March 22, 2009
I played in another live tournament Saturday. Lots of crazy stuff happened that had it hapened on FTP I would have thought it was rigged. Guy had the nut straight on the turn. ALl in with another player with a set of As. Guess what river was.

Yep, the board paired... the guy boated to suckout on the nut straight.


billytk01
March 22, 2009
eldave1.... thanx for explaining to nitemare6 the thought process of the events that took place in my aforementioned hand.... you explained my actual thought process and response to the rigged action very well..

to nitemare6.... bro, why do you argue every post i put up? yes, if that kk vs q4 was a one time loss/bad beat then I would chalk it up to just bad timing of cards... but the fact that these examples are just one or two examples of beats that constantly happen on a consistant basis.. I have yet to be knocked out of a tourney as of late with a losing hand going to the flop or river.. Everytime I get knocked out its always by some type of ridiculous beat... as eldave1 has said earlier, you cant play trapping hands online like you can live... then you when you do pick up kk or aa instead of saying cha-ching, i say lets see how imaginitive way i get knocked out now!!!!

anyways nitemare6, just take the hand i posted earlier (kk vs q4) and multiply all the bad beat/statistically dominating hands that lost times a thousand and then tell me that the shit isnt rigged..


buck22
March 20, 2009
lol you guys complain then go straight back there, look how long this threads been goin and youre still playing on these rigged to fok sites. Why??!

nitemare6
March 19, 2009
Now thre's an example that shows how FRT rigs the deal to create higher rakes.

Had you bet all in you would have gotten only oen player out of pot so the FT rig would have still stolen the pot from you.


eldave1
March 19, 2009
I have commented before on how FT gives you the unavoidable hand along with the fact that you cannot play normal. The one below is so typical.

Just minding own business on the BB - no bets by the time it gets to me. I have Q 5 suited. The flop gives me a set of fives. I check. The guy on the has raised on the button five straight times of course he raises this time. Surpisingly the small stack in the SB calls for almost all his chips. Okay I think, I got him easily covered and he probably hit the K. Flush draw at worst but, being a short stack I figure he would have shoved all his chips if he were on the draw.

Now I think, button has checked all his draw hands before, he bet this flop. God damn - he's got a K too. I can slow play this - there is only one out if I read this right - the single remaining King. Okay - I'll just call the SB and get all of the button's chips on the river. Please, anything but a K.

KKKKKKKKKKK - Foking K on the river!

Of course both the small blind and the button had the K.

Not the worst beat by far that anyone would ever see. But it is so illustrative of this site and how the hands are set up. (A) I am not even in the hand if I am not the BB and everyone limps to me. (B) I am out of the hand other then the fact I flopped a foking set (C) The flop - of course - hits the all of the three players in the hand (D)I make the exact right read (e) I get the inevitable one-outer foking.

I know readers would say you blew it - you should have shoved on the flop. In Live - yep. At FT - I know I am getting called anyway - the shove gives me no protection and no folding equity.
================================================

Full Tilt Poker Game #11221026798: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (84360680), Table 2 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:54:03 ET - 2009/03/19
Seat 1: A3LegdDog (710)
Seat 2: Laturnus (6,060)
Seat 4: yancancris (5,160)
Seat 5: _kr1ter_ (4,260)
Seat 6: youlookingood (1,095)
Seat 7: eldave1 (5,600)
Seat 8: r10ABEL (5,960)
youlookingood posts the small blind of 100
eldave1 posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Qs 5c]
r10ABEL folds
A3LegdDog folds
Laturnus folds
yancancris folds
_kr1ter_ calls 200
youlookingood calls 100
eldave1 checks
*** FLOP *** [5h Ks 5s]
youlookingood checks
eldave1 checks
_kr1ter_ bets 800
youlookingood calls 800
eldave1 calls 800
*** TURN *** [5h Ks 5s] [Ad]
youlookingood bets 95, and is all in
eldave1 calls 95
_kr1ter_ calls 95
*** RIVER *** [5h Ks 5s Ad] [Kd]
eldave1 checks
_kr1ter_ bets 1,000
eldave1 calls 1,000
*** SHOW DOWN ***
_kr1ter_ shows [Kh 9s] a full house, Kings full of Fives
eldave1 mucks
_kr1ter_ wins the side pot (2,000) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
youlookingood shows [Kc Th] a full house, Kings full of Fives
youlookingood ties for the main pot (1,643) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
_kr1ter_ ties for the main pot (1,642) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,285 Main pot 3,285. Side pot 2,000. | Rake 0
Board: [5h Ks 5s Ad Kd]
Seat 1: A3LegdDog didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Laturnus didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: yancancris didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: _kr1ter_ (button) showed [Kh 9s] and won (3,642) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
Seat 6: youlookingood (small blind) showed [Kc Th] and won (1,643) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
Seat 7: eldave1 (big blind) mucked [Qs 5c] - a full house, Fives full of Kings
Seat 8: r10ABEL didn't bet (folded)


buck22
March 19, 2009
I posted bout a few months ago about changing from stars to ipoker and the difference in graphs is hilarious.

STARS- about 10,000 hands of $10 sit n go's
results: -$50 Profit/hr: -$0.5

IPOKER- 6068 hands of 0.25/0.50 cash games
results: +$829.40 Profit/hr: +$13.66

The fact the stake on ipoker is 5x higher and still not on the same planet as my stars stats is pretty sick. I'm aware according to stat sites that you need 9,900billion hands before you get an inkling of how one fairs at poker, but this is a pretty damn good idea of where my bankroll is heading on both sites.

I watched a tourny on FT the other day, and it has been so long since ive seen such BS. Every high pair was gettin cracked, runner runner str8s. It was hilarious.


eldave1
March 17, 2009
Lost my computer drive so have not posted for awhile. Interesting threads.

Does not matter if it is one hand or a thousand - the response is always going to be the same ("ain't statistically valid").

Not to speak for Billy, but if he has had my experience, I think he was thinking something like this:

1. Dude bets out of position - Hmmmm - I know I have pocket KK and should raise, but the last 3,500 times I have shoved preflop with this hand I get called by some 20% ROI player with ace rag and lose with an ace on the flop.

2. Okay - smooth call - if the typical ace comes I'll fold.

3. Great flop - the Full Tilt fok me server must be on the fritz today.

4. What - he bets? Overpair maybe? Is this guy legit - I'll bet the bastard has tens - maybe jacks. Maybe even hit the rag part of his ace. Okay - one more just to make sure it ain't the ace rag curse. Call.

5. Turn - Q - big bet by the fella - good - I finally got the read - AQ or KQ - good time to shove - he's crushed.

6. WTF?????? Q friggin 4 - he raised in mid position with Q friggin 4? Foking idiot - what is is poker ranking - 51% - foking figures. Come on - I still got any 2, 9 or K -

7. River 4 - super - just foking super, wouldn't have mattered if I had three aces - was going down.

The moral of the story is this. There is a commune of us that have been foked so many times that we have stopped playing poker (at least on this site) according to the book because NO MATTER HOW WE PLAY A HAND - we are screwed. I can't count the times I have had a hand like Bill's where I played it traditional - raise - get - reraised - tell myself - well, if he has Aces - that's poker - only to have the dude call an all in with some horrible hand and suck out anyway. What happens here - (okay - in my personal experience) you are gonna get the goodbye hand when FT has had enough of ya. You'll flop the set of Kings to be beat by runner runner flush by some guy who called with 10 3 suited, etc. etc.

When I play live and get KK or AA the cashier register in my head goes cha-ching!!! At Fulltilt - I hear the "here we go again" This is the hand they are sending me out on.

I nevered really cared about losing or winning on FT - I make my money in live games. What I wanted was a good decent place to practice poker. That, it is not. There was a period of time where my live game went in the tank because my FT experience was influencing my play- I had to detox - took some time but I got back to normal.

And yes - you all should keep track of all your all ins. Compare your stats with hands at critical moments (70% of your stack or better) and see if the odds play out correctly - they never have for me - maybe it's just me.

I do believe that one day there will be the 60 minutes story on the rig - maybe I am just crazy -we'll see.


nitemare6
March 16, 2009
Losing to Q4 with Ks one time doesn't prove anything... and I think these sites are totally corrupt and rigged. But you continue to give examples that don't support the case for rigging.

I played in a live tournmament a few weeks ago. I went in with Qs and short stack had to call - and went all in, with 93o. The flop was 93X so I thought it was over. On the river I hit a Q.

Now if that happend on full Riggexd tilt we'd all be screaming that it was rigged.

So a guy calling with Q4 and hittign a full house or trips is not supportive that Full Rigged IS s rigged.

There are better examples.


billytk01
March 15, 2009
Sulfysulf.... You said everything Ive been thinking and claiming for while now...

Also realize that these pokersites will continue to run fraudelant and skewed software until online gaming is monitored by a legit gaming commision and unfortunately this will only happen when online poker is legalized and run out of the United States... until then it will stay corrupt where anyone can win... Not only is this true with full tilt but with poker stars, absolute joker.. etc...

Played Pokerstars 1.5 mil guarantee tonight and got busted out with my KK losing to Q4....

PokerStars Game #26004452399: Tournament #145821818, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (400/800) - 2009/03/15 19:46:13 ET
Table '145821818 114' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: BodogMaven (65495 in chips)
Seat 2: dobbbber (44321 in chips)
Seat 3: rdesch (19640 in chips)
Seat 4: Billytk01 (25073 in chips)
Seat 5: mtsacoman (7515 in chips)
Seat 6: Z@£D0 (47602 in chips)
Seat 7: wildelephant (35759 in chips)
Seat 8: pzane (7885 in chips)
Seat 9: Krumpir (14550 in chips)
BodogMaven: posts the ante 50
dobbbber: posts the ante 50
rdesch: posts the ante 50
Billytk01: posts the ante 50
mtsacoman: posts the ante 50
Z@£D0: posts the ante 50
wildelephant: posts the ante 50
pzane: posts the ante 50
Krumpir: posts the ante 50
mtsacoman: posts small blind 400
Z@£D0: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Billytk01 [Kc Kh]
wildelephant: folds
pzane: folds
Krumpir: folds
BodogMaven: folds
dobbbber: raises 1200 to 2000
rdesch: folds
Billytk01: calls 2000
mtsacoman: folds
Z@£D0: folds
*** FLOP *** [2d 9s 4h]
dobbbber: bets 1800
Billytk01: calls 1800
*** TURN *** [2d 9s 4h] [Qs]
dobbbber: bets 5600
Billytk01: raises 15623 to 21223 and is all-in
dobbbber: calls 15623
*** RIVER *** [2d 9s 4h Qs] [4s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dobbbber: shows [Qc 4c] (a full house, Fours full of Queens)
Billytk01: shows [Kc Kh] (two pair, Kings and Fours)
dobbbber collected 51696 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***


sulfysulf
March 14, 2009
I played low level SNGs (5 and 10) and the occasional cash game on Full Tilt. I can speak specifically on my experiences with the SNG and my theory as to what's going on. Throughout my life, I've always excelled in math. In college, I studied multiple Probability/Stat courses and I've passed the Probability actuary exam. So, I have always been attracted to Poker because of its close relationship to the laws behind these subjects. Intuitively, I've sensed a strong advantage given to less-skilled players...when playing on Full Tilt. I don't have the data to run numbers...but it's much like a baseball player estimating the speed of the ball when he's at bat or a pianist recognizing the pitch of a note that a song is projecting. When you've dealt with the subjects before, you develop a feeling of being able to approximate.

Now, I am interested in one poster's claim of how his pocket K's have performed in "critical" showdowns. I'd like to compare the theoretical odds he had vs. the real odds that he's claimed...along with test that difference with a confidence interval to see if there is a statistically significant difference in the means. Maintaining the odds on the whole but then skewing the "critical" showdowns would be a brilliant scam because most people wouldn't think to dissect the data into two groups...unless he also had the intuitive sense to suspect this specific scam.

Other posters have made claims that when money is taken off, bad beats seem to noticeably rise, whereas when money is put into the site, a lucky streak is the reward. This actually fits perfectly with a theory that I had originally developed in my mind before reading these posts.

The reality of poker is that the majority of players are poor players. It's much like sex in that 20% of the people are making 80% of it. So, imagine if a poker site allowed this to continue...what would happen? Well, eventually, the poor players would either run out of money or stop posting more money...and the good players would take all the money and horde it. So, what happens? 80% of the people no longer play and now the site only contains 20% of it's original size...meaning it only pulls 20% of its original profits in rake. This seems like a pretty poor business model doesn't it? Most businesses want to increase profits not lose them. This is an interesting long-term problem because it's not a consequence of anything to do with normal business conditions, where you worry about losing market share to a competitor...but rather the competitor is your own customer (the gap between the good and bad player) and the reality of poker odds. So, how does one avoid this conundrum? Answer: Give an advantage to the weaker players...through more forgiving software. So, what does this do? It allows the poor players to keep more money than they should...and hence keep playing games...and therefore maintain the original rake. And who foots the bill? The good players who otherwise would win that money. So, essentially, the poor players are upgraded to slightly below mediocre players and the good players are downgraded to slightly above mediocre players. Do you see an advantage here? Now, the good players continue to play to get the results that they know they should eventually get...and the poor players get a heightened sense of belonging...that they are just around the corner from making real money with their poor play. So, not as many people run out of money nearly as fast as they should...and therefore, the site continues to roll in the rake profits. Now, this also fits with the deposit/withdrawal anomaly that some people have noticed. Who do you think is typically depositing money? Answer: A poor player, who even with the software advantage, is losing in the long run...so, he's rewarded with a nice lucky streak. And who is typically withdrawling money? Answer: Well the good player who is still squeezing out profits...and so he is punished with a bad luck streak. Monitoring the deposit/withdrawal schedules of players is one way to identify the difference between the players (in reality). Which, I'm sure it gets more and more difficult for Full Tilt to identify who is who...since their software is designed to move everyone towards the same ability level...or better to say, results level...making it hard to tell the good from the bad by looking at their stats. This of course is just a theory...but if it's true and if enough good players realize the bias...and quit playing...the whole scheme gets harder and harder to maintain...until it finally falls apart. But essentially what I'm saying is that it's in the Poker site's best interest to skew the results towards the bad players...so as to retain these players and maintain their rake profits. What do others think about this?


Dave0116
March 11, 2009
I have played online poker at Absolute Joker and Full Scam and will agree with your comments fully. Just today I had K-K preflop and go all in only to be called by Q-2 and guess what the flop is ..... 2-2-6. I'm no odds expert but I'm fairly certain there is a 95%+ chance of me winning, but because my bankroll is under $50, this is probably why I lost.

Also if you haven't seen, there are people over in Europe hacking poker software to the point where they can see everyone's hole cards. This makes online poker no fun anymore.

I even decided to try out an Omaha hi/lo poker bot since this game is more mathematically predictable. Of course though since I did not buy in for more than the minimum of $50, I slowly lost money.

When it comes down to it, don't count on winning in online poker as a source of income. Go out and get a job first, and then find some friends for a home game every week.

Now that I've traded on the options market and online poker scams, I think it's time for me to save my money and trust no one =)


xmrmrx
March 4, 2009
I don't think so. Not really. They're given the following guidelines.... If a player is playing slightly over his bankroll, for example say a player is playing a $5 sit and go with a less than $200 bankroll, then that player should receive a negative expected ROI of roughly -10%.

The hands that the programmers setup to ensure a negative ROI to low bankrolls aren't clever at all. They tend to play themselves.... Obvious raising or calling hands at appropriate times, and flops that ensure a call by the winning hand etc.

Of course fulltilt cannot control what a player does..... you'll win some setups because a player folded a hand the software predetermined him to win.

The whole thing really comes to light at final tables in multi-table action. It's rather pathetic. the programmers aren't clever, and neither is management. It's about their bottomline rake.


eldave1
February 27, 2009
Yes - you can look at your hand history (I use Poker Tracker) and you will see over the thousands of hands that you have played that the odds hold up (for example. if I look at pocket AA for all my hands they won 76%). HOWEVER. In my case I disected my hand histories into two different categories :

"Crippling Hand" - a hand that cost you all or at least 70% of your stack.

"Late Tourney hands" (less then 20 percent of the field is left)

In the above two scenarios - all of a sudden the odds change -AA only holds up half the time, I lose most of the hands where I am the favorite at the time when all the chips go in and generally lose when I am the dog. Why would the odds change???? If AA wins 75% overall - it should be the same for at the beginning of the tourney and the end of the tourney and the same regardless of the amount of your stack at risk. BUT IT DON'T. To me, this is the insidious part of the rigging. To top it off -and this is where it is totally different then live - at the critical moments of the tournament is where you get the "are you foking kidding" (you must of known what cards were coming)" calls. (e.g., AK called by k-7 offsuit, etc.) When I play live - by the time you get down to 20 percent of the field - most the nonsense callers are long gone - not at Full Tilt - there are actually more of them.

Late in the tourney is also the time of the tournament when you can call the cards that are going to come. If I have pocket JJ and the flop is A of clubs, King of clubs and jack of diamonds giving me a set and I bet big and get the normal two callers - I know the exact card that is coming on the turn (say it with me now - the Queen of Clubs - that would be the one card given donkey 1 the nut gut shot straight and donkey 2 the flush with the 2 and 3 of clubs he had in the hole.

On-line poker is the only form of gambling I have expereinced where you actually get worse the more you play. Makes real sense.

I play live 4 to 5 times a week and yes there are bad beats and yes there are donkeys and yes there are suck outs - but I never leave the casino with that sick "I just got foked" feeling in my gut you get from Full Tilt because I know that over time at a live game things square up and eventually donks lose. I have simply lost the ability to stomach the on-line rigging anymore. And it ain't the money - I got more then enough - it is just the obvious rigging that is going on that makes you cringe. You know the truth - no matter how you played - NO MATTER - you were going to lose. It was just FT determining when the anvil was going to fall.

Anway - long story long - when you look at your stats - ignore everything other then showdowns where at least 70 percent of your stack is at risk - look at the amount of favs you loose and look at the hands you are being called by for all the c hips - you will want to vomit.


xmrmrx
ditto February 27, 2009
I'm am a net positive live cash game and tournament player up to $10/$20 (all games), but consitently lose on fulltilt playing $5 sit and go's (with a $200 bankroll).

The guys are crooks, but justify their action because the beats aren't going to them, the beats are going to other paying customers. They're interested in maximizing their rake, and in slightly growing healthy bankrolls, those rolls fulltilt management deems are playing in appropriate cash game/sg as compared to their bankroll. While slightly reducing lessor sized bankrolls their rake will naturally increase. the winners are happy and play more, the low bankrolls pony up more $$ or quit.

Like too many businesses they're bottom feeders, and have correctly surmized that the amount of resistance they'll see from this group will be minimal.

If you place in a $200 bankroll and play in $1-$2 sit and go's exclusively you'll do fine. If you dare to move up (say to $5 s/g's with this size bankroll), you will eventually be pummeled. Odds will be in the favor of the higher bankrolls (those with say $1000 bankroll at $5 s/g level). It's just good business. They want to encourage people to move up to higher limits creating more rake for them. If you deposit $1000 and play in $5 s/g's exclusively you'll do fine. Dare to move up to $20 and you will be pummeled.

Their practices are unethical as hell, and makes the game a complete sham. There is no way that on line gaming should be legal. The people that run these businesses are bottomline motivated, and will take every possible means of increasing their own bottom line. There is no online gaming regulation, therefore their biased programming isn't illegal. Still, it's corrupt and contemptable as hell.


what odds
February 27, 2009
Ok, I just want to say please read what I have to say in regards to this site. I have a LOT of experience with online poker and I want to share my beliefs on this 'poker' site they call Full TILT Poker (the person who named this site deserves a medal in my opinion! :D)

I am a winning poker player. I have logged hundreds of thousands of hands on the Cake poker network, Boss Media and Betfair networks, also had some success on pokerstars and the Paddy power network. I have losing sessions but each month I net a profit off my play.

I started playing online poker back in 2006 and joined FTP back in February 2008.

I have never had a winning month on the site. Not one winning month.

The reason? I tilt like a madman.

Now listen to this because this is how FTP screws everyone over so bad. I have logged over 300,000 hands on FTP and with pokerEV, I can tell you my stats show me running exactly to expected in the long term. Over all, hands hold up as much as they should do in terms of equity.

The difference and where FTP screws you over is the type of bad beats they dish out, and the bunching up of ridiculous bad beats in a clustered amount of time.

The software developers on FTP are extremely clever in maximising the rake.

Players will shove all in with gut shots draws, bottom pairs with ace kickers etc and they'll hit a rate you couldn't think possible.

Remember, in the longterm, hands hold up as they should on the whole, I find high pocket pairs in cash games actually perform better than expected.

So you run OK for maybe a few days and actually do better than expected, you suck out and river a fe flushes etc, your marginal hands hold up and pokerEV says you are running well, then BAM!!

Within the space of 2,000 hands you will see two outers, 3 outers, your top set will get smashed all in on the turn by a gut shot, you're top set will lose to quads, your AA loses to JJ all in pre flop, your flopped straight loses to two pair that rivers a fullhouse.

It all happens so fast and is designed to generate a player reaction, what human being could play rational poker when they make so many nut hands in such a small space of time that get smashed against the odds again and again and again?? Unless you are using the bot, the answer is no one.

It gets to the point on these runs that nothing will hold up, eventually you start to tilt and lose money.

Ask any player who has logged a good sample of hands to show you their profit graphs, you will see huge downswings in such small spaces of time, and this is confined solely to FTP. It is designed to make you tilt and bust you. Many players can blow a month's worth of profit in a few hours when the doomswitch hits and many will bust completely, only to redeposit at a later date believing that 'variance' was to blame.

Trust me, bad sessions happen, idiots suck out on you but nothing compares to the crap of FTP.

This is my warning to you, a few notable players agree with me, do searches on the net, read about their RNG, the RNG is designed to generate ridiculous action hands where you will get stacked again and again playing perfectly good poker, just don't play there, it is that simple.

I had to share this.

Make of it what you will, I will never put another cent into their games and if you do, then it is foolish.


xmrmrx
February 27, 2009
Try cash games LIVE folks. Online poker is rigged.

buck22
February 27, 2009
Dammit! All in preflop and getting beat happens all the time! The worst shapes are about 4 to 1 and in every tournament of 1500 people, how many all ins do you expect to win? If you gotta survive 10 or 11 all ins your gonna take lots of beats.

I personally don't play FT or stars cos for whatever reason, results aint right, but the over-aggresiveness of players on these sites means you gonna be flipping alot of coins. Suggestion, play cash games, grind them with a bankroll, cash games are a tighter game with less flips and more skill-rewarded play. Whatever site im on, if im in a multitable tourny over 500, i assume im going out because you cant win by skill alone, your hands have gotta stand up, that takes luck or playin alot of tournys.


billytk01
February 27, 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldave1 View Post
I Blame myself - I went one more time. I am so stupid -guy caught runner runner 10 10 to win. This was the third straight time I went out of a tourney as a 98% fav after the flop. As a note - I got short stacked in this tourney after being the chip leader by having AK suited beaten by 4-2 off suit - flop A, K 4 - I shove and the foker calls with 4-2 and hits 4 on turn. A few hands later I am out with the hand below (ps - another 14 percent ROI fella)

To the "non-riggers" of the world who would offer suggestions on how to play hands differently. Don't - BECAUSE - it don't foking matter. If I play AA as all ins - cracked. If I bet 5 times the BB - cracked - slowplay - cracked. If I play suited connectors -I'll hit the straight to be beat by the river flush (and almost always runner runner). If I play ABC poker (just the top ten hands) I will lose 80% of them. The last 30 tourneys that I got busted on FT I was the fav - foking 30!!!!!!. And yes - you can just call out the cards like you are the amazing preston. Oh - he has 8 4 off suit and you flop a set of fives, Call it with me - turn 6 river 7 - see ya - would not want to be ya.

=================================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #10835682002: $8 + $0.80 Tournament (81547731), Table 6 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:18:39 ET - 2009/02/25
Seat 1: orla (26,179)
Seat 2: rocky556 (21,089)
Seat 3: eldave1 (3,645)
Seat 4: Lakshmi78 (10,583)
Seat 5: booker_tg (23,656)
Seat 6: coconacueca (11,060)
Seat 7: blondie lau (21,907)
Seat 8: poart (10,164)
orla antes 75
rocky556 antes 75
eldave1 antes 75
Lakshmi78 antes 75
booker_tg antes 75
coconacueca antes 75
blondie lau antes 75
poart antes 75
rocky556 posts the small blind of 300
eldave1 posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ah 6h]
Lakshmi78 folds
booker_tg folds
coconacueca folds
blondie lau folds
poart folds
orla folds
rocky556 raises to 2,400
eldave1 raises to 3,570, and is all in
rocky556 calls 1,170
eldave1 shows [Ah 6h]
rocky556 shows [Th Jh]
*** FLOP *** [6d 6c Kh]
*** TURN *** [6d 6c Kh] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [6d 6c Kh Ts] [Td]
eldave1 shows a full house, Sixes full of Tens
rocky556 shows a full house, Tens full of Sixes
rocky556 wins the pot (7,740) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,740 | Rake 0
Board: [6d 6c Kh Ts Td]
Seat 1: orla (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: rocky556 (small blind) showed [Th Jh] and won (7,740) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
Seat 3: eldave1 (big blind) showed [Ah 6h] and lost with a full house, Sixes full of Tens
Seat 4: Lakshmi78 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: booker_tg folded before the Flop
Seat 6: coconacueca folded before the Flop
Seat 7: blondie lau folded before the Flop
Seat 8: poart folded before the Flop
*you know why you lost right? its because you were the smaller stack.. Full Rigged always favors the bigger stack... what a joke... unreal... that is prolly one of the sickest twists ive seen online...


billytk01
February 27, 2009
to nitemare6... I clearly explained why I called in that spot and what the BB was doing (pushing weak all night)... Is this hand a total classic rigging like im use to seeing? NO.. but is it the same typical reward the donkey who constantly pushes at any spot in tourney? Yes.. I would of loved to sit back, relax and pick another spot to call or push all my chips but at that point/deep in the tourney I could not afford to not make the call based on the BB previous plays and due to the chip count position I was in at that point in the tourney...

xmrmrx
February 27, 2009
What do you think full tilt managers do all day? Sit around and dream up ways to make the online poker experience the best it could possibly be? (That's a joke.)

I'm certain full tilt targets low bankrolls. If one's bankroll falls below say $40, you'll be sure to receive MORE than your fair share of bad beats, poor stud and razz starting hands and coolers. Algorithmically forcing this kind of action upon a good regular player will do one of two things. He'll buy in bigger or quit.

Take the later folks. It's rigged. I doubt what they do is illegal, just unethical as hell. Just say no to online poker. Play live if you don't want to get stiffed.


eldave1
February 25, 2009
I Blame myself - I went one more time. I am so stupid -guy caught runner runner 10 10 to win. This was the third straight time I went out of a tourney as a 98% fav after the flop. As a note - I got short stacked in this tourney after being the chip leader by having AK suited beaten by 4-2 off suit - flop A, K 4 - I shove and the foker calls with 4-2 and hits 4 on turn. A few hands later I am out with the hand below (ps - another 14 percent ROI fella)

To the "non-riggers" of the world who would offer suggestions on how to play hands differently. Don't - BECAUSE - it don't foking matter. If I play AA as all ins - cracked. If I bet 5 times the BB - cracked - slowplay - cracked. If I play suited connectors -I'll hit the straight to be beat by the river flush (and almost always runner runner). If I play ABC poker (just the top ten hands) I will lose 80% of them. The last 30 tourneys that I got busted on FT I was the fav - foking 30!!!!!!. And yes - you can just call out the cards like you are the amazing preston. Oh - he has 8 4 off suit and you flop a set of fives, Call it with me - turn 6 river 7 - see ya - would not want to be ya.

=================================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #10835682002: $8 + $0.80 Tournament (81547731), Table 6 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:18:39 ET - 2009/02/25
Seat 1: orla (26,179)
Seat 2: rocky556 (21,089)
Seat 3: eldave1 (3,645)
Seat 4: Lakshmi78 (10,583)
Seat 5: booker_tg (23,656)
Seat 6: coconacueca (11,060)
Seat 7: blondie lau (21,907)
Seat 8: poart (10,164)
orla antes 75
rocky556 antes 75
eldave1 antes 75
Lakshmi78 antes 75
booker_tg antes 75
coconacueca antes 75
blondie lau antes 75
poart antes 75
rocky556 posts the small blind of 300
eldave1 posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ah 6h]
Lakshmi78 folds
booker_tg folds
coconacueca folds
blondie lau folds
poart folds
orla folds
rocky556 raises to 2,400
eldave1 raises to 3,570, and is all in
rocky556 calls 1,170
eldave1 shows [Ah 6h]
rocky556 shows [Th Jh]
*** FLOP *** [6d 6c Kh]
*** TURN *** [6d 6c Kh] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [6d 6c Kh Ts] [Td]
eldave1 shows a full house, Sixes full of Tens
rocky556 shows a full house, Tens full of Sixes
rocky556 wins the pot (7,740) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,740 | Rake 0
Board: [6d 6c Kh Ts Td]
Seat 1: orla (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: rocky556 (small blind) showed [Th Jh] and won (7,740) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
Seat 3: eldave1 (big blind) showed [Ah 6h] and lost with a full house, Sixes full of Tens
Seat 4: Lakshmi78 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: booker_tg folded before the Flop
Seat 6: coconacueca folded before the Flop
Seat 7: blondie lau folded before the Flop
Seat 8: poart folded before the Flop


nitemare6
February 25, 2009
sorry Billy - that's not rigged - how is that rigged? a guy has A7 ?

In live tournament I had KJ. Flop was xJQ. Due to the lights (it was being filmed for cable) I didn't see that it was a J. I forget if I bet or checked. But next card was 6 and I bet 4000 into pot of 5400 after a check. Guy then check-bets 6000 more. So I put him on a Q. I folded (probably not a good move) and he showed pp 10s.

What is curious is why the BB donk called with A7s. Maybe he didn't put you on an A. What is more cuious is why you called. I would not have called with KJo when I was sitting pretty. Why not wait until you have cards and don't get an all-in raise.

I think it was not good play on your part.


nitemare6
February 25, 2009
sorry Billy - that's not rigged - how is that rigged? a guy has pp As???

In live youtnament I had KJ. Flop was xJQ. Dues to the lights (it was being filmed for cable) I didn't see the J. I forget if I bet or checked. But nezt card was x and I bet 4000 into pot of 5400 after a check. Guy then check-bets 5000 more. So I put him on a Q. I folded (probably not a good move) and he showed pp 10s.

What is curious is whuy the BB donk called with A7s. Maybe he didn't put oyu on an A.

Further why did you call.

I would not have called with KJo when I was sitting pretty.

Why not wait until you have cards and don't get an all-in raise.

I think it was not good play on your part.


billytk01
February 22, 2009
well since ive closed my Full Rigged account I have been playing at Joker Stars.. and same bs happening there too.... Im deep in the Sunday 1.5mil guarantee, I make standard raise with kjo before cutoff seat and BB pushes all in (BB has been pushing weak all night so I honestly felt I had the best hand..) heres how it played out... as usual 3 outer on river is hit... what a joke...

PokerStars Game #25248048210: Tournament #140492030, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (2000/4000) - 2009/02/22 20:32:24 ET
Table '140492030 1081' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Sinsim (50324 in chips)
Seat 2: KillBroccoli (29354 in chips)
Seat 3: DcHustlers (59275 in chips)
Seat 4: frenchfish94 (82954 in chips)
Seat 5: zappdanko (42400 in chips)
Seat 6: shoes33 (141950 in chips)
Seat 7: Billytk01 (52805 in chips)
Seat 8: Creatiff111 (181271 in chips)
Seat 9: CR711 (45063 in chips)
Sinsim: posts the ante 400
KillBroccoli: posts the ante 400
DcHustlers: posts the ante 400
frenchfish94: posts the ante 400
zappdanko: posts the ante 400
shoes33: posts the ante 400
Billytk01: posts the ante 400
Creatiff111: posts the ante 400
CR711: posts the ante 400
CR711: posts small blind 2000
Sinsim: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Billytk01 [Kh Jc]
KillBroccoli: folds
DcHustlers: folds
frenchfish94: folds
zappdanko: folds
shoes33: folds
Billytk01: raises 5000 to 9000
Creatiff111: folds
CR711: folds
Sinsim: raises 40924 to 49924 and is all-in
Billytk01: calls 40924
*** FLOP *** [5h Qd Js]
*** TURN *** [5h Qd Js] [2h]
*** RIVER *** [5h Qd Js 2h] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sinsim: shows [7h Ah] (a pair of Aces)
Billytk01: shows [Kh Jc] (a pair of Jacks)
Sinsim collected 105448 from pot
Billytk01 said, "rigged"
Billytk01 said, "rigged"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 105448 | Rake 0
Board [5h Qd Js 2h As]
Seat 1: Sinsim (big blind) showed [7h Ah] and won (105448) with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: KillBroccoli folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: DcHustlers folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: frenchfish94 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: zappdanko folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: shoes33 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Billytk01 showed [Kh Jc] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: Creatiff111 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: CR711 (small blind) folded before Flop


nitemare6
February 22, 2009
I meant two-outer

nitemare6
February 22, 2009
Played in live tournament yesterday. 54 players; finished 9th.

Last hand my AK and all in as short stack. Guy calls w/AQos. Flop is xxQ. Now if this had been on Full Tilt, I would be yelling rigged. Earlier hand I'm in with pp Qs, ss calls all in with 93os and other guy comes in with J9 or 10. Flop is 93x. Turn is 6. Guess what river s ? Yep a full rigged tilt Q - for trips. Three-outer

I knock-out two players and become chip leader.


buck22
February 21, 2009
Fulltilt isn't rigged, ive been playing it for years and ive never had any problems.lol, only kidding, ive lost sh** loads on there, my sharkscope is so sick. I was grinding $13 stakes , platowed and lost on stars for 2 months, then changed to ipoker and its steadily increasing, playing $55 within a month,lol.

Remember guys that its when your money goes in thats the important factor. Eladave1 youve had some sick beats but when you write your trips were beaten by runner runner, thats misleading, you lost 99 vs AQ, bout 42% time thas gonna happen, even if the board comes 99A A A its still not a bad beat, its a lost coin flip.

Think you should all play live till the laws sorted, atleast you got sh** load of live games about. I kept going back to these 2 sites and every time the consistency of beats is rediculous, dont drive yourself insane, if you aint winning long-term somewhere, you leave whatever reasons or suspicions you have.Good luck


mrkromer
February 20, 2009
standard.

billytk01
February 19, 2009
to eldave... SPEECHLESS..... what else can i possibly add to this? such a joke!!!!

eldave1
February 19, 2009
Well goodness - I just spent my last 3 dollars on a satellite. It was jsut great - below is the hand I went out on - on the bubble of course - see - I made the mistake of flopping a set - after the flop, the big stack (of course) caught runner runner for a straight. I knew I was in trouble because after the flop I was only a 97% FOKING favorite. I guess I should learn to lay those down - good luck to all - I hope they catch these crooks

Full Tilt Poker Game #10733756437: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (80828766), Table 3 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:49:08 ET - 2009/02/19
Seat 1: eldave1 (7,440)
Seat 2: imrdmw (4,640)
Seat 3: lululacrepe (15,925)
Seat 4: brutATwork (21,356)
Seat 6: Body2177 (11,184)
Seat 7: Bassnbird (21,295)
Seat 8: CHARGER55 (20,415)
Seat 9: datec4 (12,245)
eldave1 antes 100
imrdmw antes 100
lululacrepe antes 100
brutATwork antes 100
Body2177 antes 100
Bassnbird antes 100
CHARGER55 antes 100
datec4 antes 100
Body2177 posts the small blind of 400
Bassnbird posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [9c 9s]
CHARGER55 folds
datec4 folds
eldave1 raises to 3,200
imrdmw folds
lululacrepe folds
brutATwork folds
Body2177 raises to 11,084, and is all in
Bassnbird folds
eldave1 calls 4,140, and is all in
Body2177 shows [Qh Ac]
eldave1 shows [9c 9s]
Uncalled bet of 3,744 returned to Body2177
*** FLOP *** [Qc Js 9h]
*** TURN *** [Qc Js 9h] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [Qc Js 9h Ts] [Kc]
Body2177 shows a straight, Ace high
eldave1 shows a straight, King high
Body2177 wins the pot (16,280) with a straight, Ace high
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 16,280 | Rake 0
Board: [Qc Js 9h Ts Kc]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [9c 9s] and lost with a straight, King high
Seat 2: imrdmw folded before the Flop
Seat 3: lululacrepe folded before the Flop
Seat 4: brutATwork (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Body2177 (small blind) showed [Qh Ac] and won (16,280) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 7: Bassnbird (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: CHARGER55 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: datec4 folded before the Flop


eldave1
February 18, 2009
That could be it Billy - last time I emailed FT they still had not had an independent audit of their RNG performed (a pretty simple task if you ask me) - that means even if they are well intended - that's a stretch - they really don't know if the RNG produces the expected results.

As a side note - when most folks want to have you look at your hand stats you have to do it in a FT type of way. As an example:

If I looked at all my pocket KK - I won the hand 70% of the time. HOWEVER - that includes all hands - even those that went uncontested (i.e., no one called). Take those out and then I am down to 60%. Now here is the FT magic. Divide those remaining hands into two stacks (1) hands that I call "Crippling" - i.e., you have 70% to 100% of your stack at risk to (2) all others hands. - God damn - in the first - "crippling" category
KK only wins 30% of the time.

There is no valid reason for the stats to change -hands are hands.

I think I went about 30 straight tourneys where I went out as the favorite at the time all the chips went in - I would have been delighted jsut to win half of those - oh well - off toe a live game today - yes!


billytk01
February 17, 2009
to eldave1.... Im beginning to think that you may be right. I dont think that people can see hole cards but I do think that the rng algorythm has been cracked/comprimised, its the only explanation.. especially when you post results like that.. Ive personally seen this happen more times than I can count, its a joke...

well.. I finally closed my full tilt account again for the last time.. so now ive began to focus on playing Poker Stars but the garbage is just is bad... i swear these sites are rigged.. its a joke.. I have yet to be knocked out of a tourney pushing with the worst hand...

this happened on Pstars tonight... once again AA vs 44 and.... as usual AA cracked cuz I was the smaller stack... such a joke...

PokerStars Game #25066428193: Tournament #140492032, $150+$12 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2009/02/17 21:54:17 ET
Table '140492032 96' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Billytk01 (2000 in chips)
Seat 2: Donk Crusher (5655 in chips)
Seat 3: Vitalo (1315 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: jimmyv52 (4020 in chips)
Seat 5: Pokerl)eviL (2165 in chips)
Seat 6: toneland (3255 in chips)
Seat 7: m0_m0ney69 (2415 in chips)
Seat 8: Zackattak13 (5355 in chips)
Seat 9: ZooterCHUBBS (3825 in chips)
Vitalo: posts small blind 50
jimmyv52: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Billytk01 [As Ac]
Pokerl)eviL: folds
toneland: folds
m0_m0ney69: folds
Zackattak13: folds
ZooterCHUBBS: folds
Billytk01: calls 100
Donk Crusher: folds
Vitalo: folds
jimmyv52: checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 8h Tc]
jimmyv52: checks
Billytk01: bets 200
jimmyv52: calls 200
*** TURN *** [4s 8h Tc] [6c]
jimmyv52: bets 300
Billytk01: raises 600 to 900
jimmyv52: raises 2820 to 3720 and is all-in
Billytk01: calls 800 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (2020) returned to jimmyv52
*** RIVER *** [4s 8h Tc 6c] [2s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jimmyv52: shows [4d 4c] (three of a kind, Fours)
Billytk01: shows [As Ac] (a pair of Aces)
jimmyv52 collected 4050 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4050 | Rake 0
Board [4s 8h Tc 6c 2s]
Seat 1: Billytk01 showed [As Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: Donk Crusher (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Vitalo (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: jimmyv52 (big blind) showed [4d 4c] and won (4050) with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 5: Pokerl)eviL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: toneland folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: m0_m0ney69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Zackattak13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ZooterCHUBBS folded before Flop (didn't bet)


It amazes me that statistics hold true in online play cuz my AA and KK get cracked more times than they win for me...

bottom line is online poker is going to continue to be rigged and garbage until it is legalized and legally monitored/audited in the United States by a legit gaming commission, not by some bull shit kamahamee moheekan (whatever their names are) tribes in canada....


eldave1
February 17, 2009
I think I finally get it - especially when reviewing the hands that have crippled me or knocked me out. Some plays are so inexplicable that they can only be explained by this simple observation - some players already know the hole cards and the board in advance. It is the only way to explain it.

eldave1
February 17, 2009
When I am done with the meager 9 dollars I have left I am done - the hand below is so typical - the guy below had been pushing with junk for 20 minutes (mostly k rag) so I say to myself - he's my target - just need to wait for the moment. Sure as shit next hand he's the button - I'm the BB. Like clockwork he bets - I call with J 10 suited - if a K comes I fold - if not - I'm going over the top on any raise.

Flop is 6 J 2 - BBBBB-Bingo! I check - the trap is set.

He bets 1200 - I snap re-raise to 2400 - he folds right? Nope - he pushes all in. God damn it - did I read him wrong this time - shit - I'm committed - I call for all my chips. He shows:

K - FOKING 5 - non suited. As soon as our cards are shown a FOKING K hits the turn. He shoved over a re-raise with Foking AIR!!!!!!! - and of course - he instantly hits the out.

I check his ranking. He is: 16%, 31% and 40% for the last three years. Apparently in his training he learned that K 5 offsuit is the FT Nuts. He is typical of the type of player that FT is bringing along - he'll get to a cash out though and join the horror show eventually.


================================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #10692841160: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (80566556), Table 4 - 80/160 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:54:03 ET - 2009/02/17
Seat 2: donniemeboy (4,305)
Seat 3: yancancris (4,240)
Seat 4: WCshotcrete (3,625)
Seat 5: Moejoe13 (7,160)
Seat 6: o0alx0o (4,075)
Seat 7: eldave1 (5,895)
Seat 8: RodsterDP (7,810)
o0alx0o posts the small blind of 80
eldave1 posts the big blind of 160
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Tc Jc]
RodsterDP folds
donniemeboy folds
yancancris folds
WCshotcrete folds
Moejoe13 raises to 560
o0alx0o folds
eldave1 calls 400
*** FLOP *** [6s Jd 2s]
eldave1 checks
Moejoe13 bets 1,200
eldave1 raises to 2,400
Moejoe13 raises to 6,600, and is all in
eldave1 calls 2,935, and is all in
Moejoe13 shows [5d Ks]
eldave1 shows [Tc Jc]
Uncalled bet of 1,265 returned to Moejoe13
*** TURN *** [6s Jd 2s] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [6s Jd 2s Kd] [Ad]
Moejoe13 shows a pair of Kings
eldave1 shows a pair of Jacks
Moejoe13 wins the pot (11,870) with a pair of Kings
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11,870 | Rake 0
Board: [6s Jd 2s Kd Ad]
Seat 2: donniemeboy didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: yancancris didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: WCshotcrete didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Moejoe13 (button) showed [5d Ks] and won (11,870) with a pair of Kings
Seat 6: o0alx0o (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: eldave1 (big blind) showed [Tc Jc] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: RodsterDP didn't bet (folded)


roadrunnerr2
February 16, 2009
I totally agree with eldave that this kind of stuff can really screw up your game. I really find myself questioning my play nowadays because I just don't trust the numbers anymore. When you're playing a game that's dependent on mathematics, and the math doesn't hold up, it really messes with your head.

I was recently playing in a SNG and I looked up everybody else at the table and I was the only one who was a profitable player. Instead of being happy at being the shark swimming among fish, all I could think of is being in a minefield because I didn't feel like skill gets rewarded. Of course I got knocked out by having KK cracked by someone re-raising all-in with A5s then turning the ace...and I wasn't even the least bit surprised. That's what it's come to...I'm terrified that no matter how far ahead I am my hand won't hold up. I'm afraid to push and I'm afraid to call. I find myself hoping to take down small pots rather than risk getting crippled or busted, even when I flop the nuts. I'm a 96% ranked player and right now I don't feel like I have +EV playing against a table full of sub-50% players...it's so sick....


eldave1
February 16, 2009
Like I said before - I think it got to the point where it screwed up my Live game. As examples, pocket AA is suppossed to occur on the same 9 handed table with KK only 4% of the time. In the last 50 KKs I have had, I ran across AA 7 times (14%!!!) - I now fold KK in online if it is for all my chips - isn't that pathetic??

The last tourney I played I had A 9 suited on in the BB - the cutoff, the button, the small blind, all limped to me - not in good position and don't love A9 anyway so I check. Flop = A,9,5 - Bingo!!!

What - the small blind shoves all in - fok - okay - I know he has me covered - Okay - I'll call. What!! - the cutoff goes all in and then the button goes all in - What the FOK is going on? - okay - too late. Every one is in.

SB has: 8-7 - shoved for a gut shot with 3 players in front of him - idiot!

ME in the BB - two pair - Aces and 9s

Shit!!!!!! - the cutoff has pocket 55 - flopped a set!

Holy Shit - the button had pocket 99 - flopped a larger set.

As I think how could one foking flop hit so many people I type "NH and GG" - to the chap on the button - wasn't his fault. Then the turn - WAM -6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - the foker in the SB hit his gut shot - river 2 - all chips swish to the idiot.

I read the notes from the pocket 99 - "this site suks - fok u you donkey - how you shove with that shit..."

I look up our hero at official poker rankings - yep - 18% ranking - magic - just foking magic.

There are so MANY hot plops on this site - it is beyond reason. In live games - there are a couple a hands a tourney you can't get away from (e.g., you flop a set, top two pair, etc) - on FT - there are 10 a round and you lose 9 of them.

How does Billy go from a 99.9% ranking to a 37% ranking?? I wnet from the mid nineties to the 60 percentile - is this the only game where the more you play the worse you get - oops - I forgot - I cashed.


buck22
February 16, 2009
My FullTilt days are way in the past, thank christ, the consistant bad beats on this site are sooooooo obvious that its not worth talking about, and just withdrawn from pokerstars for the last time. I recently started a mission on stars to build a 20K bankroll, ive played $100 a game comfortably profiting in the past, upward from that was unexplored teratory. 220 games in and i was down $50 playing $13 sit n gos of which my roi at these donkey stakes is 30%, so I shifted the shattered remains of my bankroll ($300) over to ipoker, and quelle f***ing surprise, 120 games in and im upto $1000, cos thats whats meant to happen!!!

90%!! of poker players lose, and random is seldom random, ever see the number board next to a roulette wheel? Always streaks. So to seperate personal mistakes with said rigged sites, one must focus inwards. Do i:

1)Play outside my bankroll? 5% per game,2% MTT
2)Do I give my opponents the implied odds to catch their outs and get paid off?
3)Play an aggressive game such that I will get called so often that I will statistically recieve more bad beats than a normal player?

Take this into consideration first and then frisbie your laptop out of the 3rd story of a block of flats (Im on my 3rd laptop).

My personal down fall pattern on Full Tilt and Stars is that im consistantly mildly unlucky which breaks me even for 5 days, win a few 1 day, then drop 20 buyins in a row through utter bullsh**. You could set your watch by it,every freakin' week. I said 'sick' so many times last month that im sick of saying SICK!

If it's staring you in the face that for whatever reason you are not winning, you need to change your venue or your past time. One thing I remember so clearly from fulltilt was that sinking gut feeling when you are dealt AA, that aint right!! Fulltilt and stars to me are purely a channel to watch high stake pros play.


billytk01
February 15, 2009
The previous tourney that I just posted (losing k high flugh to A "nut" flush) happened in the ftops main event... I pd $500 to get into that garbage bs... and that also makes me wonder who in their right mind would put up $2,500 to $5,000 to play in a rigged online tourney... its an fin joke...


to eldave... its amazing that you post those remarks cuz I witness the exact same scenarios time after time time.... Lol whats even funnier is that you mention something about someone holding pckt 10's and then the flop hits A, K, x.. and they call no matter what is bet and they get rewarded by a 10 hitting the turn...... LOL well check this hand out... its exactly the same only with a pckt 6's being the suck out hand...

Full Tilt Poker Game #10533880715: Satellite to FTOPS Event #12 (79104849), Table 20 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:32:15 ET - 2009/02/09
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (1,880)
Seat 2: martytadman (3,255)
Seat 3: SorenKongsgaard (3,015)
Seat 4: billytk01 (2,535)
Seat 6: PokerTul (2,000)
Seat 7: fabregarp (1,620)
Seat 8: JoeSkeeter (1,640)
Seat 9: FR8DOGNV (1,020)
Dave Colclough posts the small blind of 30
martytadman posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billytk01 [Ks Qh]
SorenKongsgaard folds
billytk01 raises to 180
PokerTul folds
fabregarp folds
JoeSkeeter folds
FR8DOGNV folds
Dave Colclough folds
martytadman has 15 seconds left to act
martytadman calls 120
*** FLOP *** [Kc Qd 3d]
martytadman checks
bdubs3737 sits down
bdubs3737 adds 1,170
billytk01 bets 300
martytadman calls 300
*** TURN *** [Kc Qd 3d] [6s]
martytadman checks
billytk01 bets 2,055, and is all in
martytadman calls 2,055
billytk01 shows [Ks Qh]
martytadman shows [6d 6h]
*** RIVER *** [Kc Qd 3d 6s] [9s]
billytk01 shows two pair, Kings and Queens
martytadman shows three of a kind, Sixes
martytadman wins the pot (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes
billytk01 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,100 | Rake 0
Board: [Kc Qd 3d 6s 9s]
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: martytadman (big blind) showed [6d 6h] and won (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes

this shit is too funny...


eldave1
February 15, 2009
They don't even attempt to disguise it anymore. You can literally call out the hands (especially the "runner runners") before anything hits the board. Here it comes - runner - runner - I lose my flopped set to seven high straight.

Here are other certainties:

* If you flop a monster and slow play it - you will lose - guarenteed - by some ridiculous turn river scenario.

* If you flop a monster and bet it big - you will
lose by some ridiculous turn river scenario.

* If you have KK, they have AA.

* If you have AA, they have an underpair and will hit a set.

HERE IS THE BIGGEST CERTAINITY - THE BAD PLAY IS ALMOST ALWAYS REWARDED!!!!!!

If the have 10 - 10 and the flop is A K 2 and you have AK and shove - the third ten hits the turn almost in sync with their bad call. This happens over and over and foking over again on this site - there absolutely is no punishment for bad play.

I have no foking idea how to play on-line poker anymore - seriously - do I fold aces - not bet AK, fold all pairs - WHAT????

If I bet and someone makes a stupid call ("yeah I know I only had 9-2 but they were suited and you only bet ten times the BB") I will lose - ALL STUPID CALLS ARE PAID OFF.

I can honestyl say I have no idea how to play this anymore - what a joke


billytk01
February 15, 2009
OMG..... OMG...... OMG..... this shit is fin hilarious.... it never ends........ full tilt is such a full fuckin joke......

Full Tilt Poker Game #10652549978: FTOPS Main Event (73899945), Table 459 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:39:44 ET - 2009/02/15
Seat 1: Poker_Freddy_1 (7,840)
Seat 2: o LIMIT 45 o (6,780)
Seat 3: kasino31 (7,335)
Seat 4: billytk01 (5,150)
Seat 5: scrapper41 (7,249)
Seat 6: SuckaFish1 (6,575)
Seat 7: Ahvall (20,221)
Seat 8: EerWotBlud (10,195)
Seat 9: bigpapi1010 (8,776)
bigpapi1010 posts the small blind of 25
Poker_Freddy_1 posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billytk01 [Ks 9s]
o LIMIT 45 o folds
kasino31 folds
billytk01 calls 50
scrapper41 raises to 200
SuckaFish1 folds
Ahvall folds
EerWotBlud folds
bigpapi1010 calls 175
Poker_Freddy_1 folds
billytk01 calls 150
*** FLOP *** [8s 2s Js]
bigpapi1010 checks
billytk01 checks
scrapper41 bets 600
bigpapi1010 has 15 seconds left to act
bigpapi1010 calls 600
billytk01 calls 600
*** TURN *** [8s 2s Js] [3h]
bigpapi1010 has 15 seconds left to act
bigpapi1010 bets 1,400
billytk01 calls 1,400
scrapper41 folds
*** RIVER *** [8s 2s Js 3h] [4h]
bigpapi1010 has 15 seconds left to act
bigpapi1010 bets 2,950
billytk01 calls 2,950, and is all in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bigpapi1010 shows [Ts As] a flush, Ace high
billytk01 mucks
bigpapi1010 wins the pot (11,150) with a flush, Ace high
billytk01 stands up
Poker_Freddy_1 stands up
o LIMIT 45 o stands up
kasino31 stands up
scrapper41 stands up
SuckaFish1 stands up
Ahvall stands up
EerWotBlud stands up
bigpapi1010 stands up
billytk01 (Observer): rigged
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11,150 | Rake 0
Board: [8s 2s Js 3h 4h]
Seat 1: Poker_Freddy_1 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: o LIMIT 45 o didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: kasino31 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: billytk01 mucked [Ks 9s] - a flush, King high
Seat 5: scrapper41 folded on the Turn
Seat 6: SuckaFish1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Ahvall didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: EerWotBlud (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: bigpapi1010 (small blind) showed [Ts As] and won (11,150) with a flush, Ace high

Its amazing that I never get knocked out of these full tilt tournament with a marginal hand, or bad call.... Im always knocked out of these Full Rigged tourneys with huge made hands only to lose to ungodly bigger hands on a consistant basis. its the only way full tilt can knock out good players and give the fish a chance... what an fin joke.... these hands are all set up bull shit....


billytk01
February 12, 2009
to nitemar6... I agree that 1 and 2 and 3 outers on the river happen but the point of the post is that these type of beats happen all the time... bad players are constantly rewarded, no hand is safe....

nitemare6
February 12, 2009
Roadrunner

I have posted a lot about FTP being rigged. But your example isn't what I would consider rigged. You could easily see an A on the river in a live game anywhere. The only thing that is suspect is why the A2 called you bets. Now THAT is suspicious. But an ace suckout on the river isn't the kind of rigged dealing that I have used as examples.


billytk01
February 12, 2009
to roadrunnerr2..... that is some sick ass play on full tilt. this is exactly my point about the site being rigged.. and the rigging im talking about is called leverage. These online sites purposely build in these suckouts for the horrid players, this enables all the fish and bad players which make up most of the site traffic to continue playing on these sickening sites....

Unfortuneatly, the only solution to this problem is to hopefully have the US finally approve online poker in the states and to have a US licensed gaming commision monitor the play.. until then its all luck and no skill on these sites....


roadrunnerr2
February 12, 2009
I'm done with Full Tilt, for good this time. This hand is the one that broke my back....absolutely horrible play rewarded with a ridiculous suck-out.

Full Tilt Poker Game #10593055796: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (79923672), Table 1 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:33:08 ET - 2009/02/12
Seat 1: pacatoo (1,425)
Seat 2: OZMANFL (2,085)
Seat 3: mcdougal60 (1,900)
Seat 4: vdog11 (1,525)
Seat 5: Goldmine1 (1,050)
Seat 6: TheEnterTrainer (1,450)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 (1,460)
Seat 8: rallaff (1,165), is sitting out
Seat 9: DaIceCreamMan (1,440)
OZMANFL posts the small blind of 20
mcdougal60 posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [Kc Kd]
vdog11 folds
Goldmine1 folds
TheEnterTrainer folds
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 120
rallaff folds
DaIceCreamMan folds
pacatoo folds
OZMANFL calls 100
mcdougal60 calls 80
*** FLOP *** [7d 2d Qs]
OZMANFL bets 40
mcdougal60 folds
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 360
OZMANFL has 15 seconds left to act
OZMANFL calls 320
*** TURN *** [7d 2d Qs] [8h]
OZMANFL bets 40
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 980, and is all in
OZMANFL has 15 seconds left to act
OZMANFL calls 940
Roadrunnerr2 shows [Kc Kd]
OZMANFL shows [As 2h]
*** RIVER *** [7d 2d Qs 8h] [Ah]
Roadrunnerr2 shows a pair of Kings
OZMANFL shows two pair, Aces and Twos
OZMANFL wins the pot (3,040) with two pair, Aces and Twos
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
The blinds are now 25/50
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,040 | Rake 0
Board: [7d 2d Qs 8h Ah]
Seat 1: pacatoo (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: OZMANFL (small blind) showed [As 2h] and won (3,040) with two pair, Aces and Twos
Seat 3: mcdougal60 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: vdog11 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Goldmine1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: TheEnterTrainer didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 showed [Kc Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: rallaff didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: DaIceCreamMan didn't bet (folded)


jaywepp
Lol Roadrunner February 11, 2009
You thought you were playing low stakes and took out a little.... I usually only put 50 bucks in to start, which may be stupid since it means I have to double up to even cash out.. but i digress....

My best run ever was when I built 50 to over 1000... I cashed some out and couldn't win. Did the same when i'd win a couple hundred leaving some to play and the curse would hit every time.

I just cashed out 800 after winning a desperation 200 buy in game... I had 900 and couldn't win or get in the money to save my life.. so figured it was time to leave.

Gonna take a break and see if i can start getting cards again after i get that check.


roadrunnerr2
February 9, 2009
I've never thought about it before, but the sick run of bad beats against me didn't start until I made a withdrawal. It didn't cross my mind because I don't play big stakes and I only took out a couple of thousand. Would they really flip the doomswitch on anybody who has the nerve to make money on their site?! Apparently, they must be catering to the same crowd that spends half their paychecks on lottery tickets. "Come play our site...no skill required".

billytk01
February 9, 2009
Jesus Christ... this site is so sickening.... horrid play constantly rewarded time after time... Its impossible to ever know if you the best hand or even a strong hand cuz the suck outs are unreal.. 1,2,3 outers constantly hit.. its ungodly sickening...

I just finished playing a satellite to the 1.5 million second chance tourney on Full tilt.. it was a 216 buyin... and another sickening beat again to get booted... Are any hands even remotely safe?????? its ungodly sickening....

Full Tilt Poker Game #10533880715: Satellite to FTOPS Event #12 (79104849), Table 20 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:32:15 ET - 2009/02/09
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (1,880)
Seat 2: martytadman (3,255)
Seat 3: SorenKongsgaard (3,015)
Seat 4: billytk01 (2,535)
Seat 6: PokerTul (2,000)
Seat 7: fabregarp (1,620)
Seat 8: JoeSkeeter (1,640)
Seat 9: FR8DOGNV (1,020)
Dave Colclough posts the small blind of 30
martytadman posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billytk01 [Ks Qh]
SorenKongsgaard folds
billytk01 raises to 180
PokerTul folds
fabregarp folds
JoeSkeeter folds
FR8DOGNV folds
Dave Colclough folds
martytadman has 15 seconds left to act
martytadman calls 120
*** FLOP *** [Kc Qd 3d]
martytadman checks
bdubs3737 sits down
bdubs3737 adds 1,170
billytk01 bets 300
martytadman calls 300
*** TURN *** [Kc Qd 3d] [6s]
martytadman checks
billytk01 bets 2,055, and is all in
martytadman calls 2,055
billytk01 shows [Ks Qh]
martytadman shows [6d 6h]
*** RIVER *** [Kc Qd 3d 6s] [9s]
billytk01 shows two pair, Kings and Queens
martytadman shows three of a kind, Sixes
martytadman wins the pot (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes
billytk01 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,100 | Rake 0
Board: [Kc Qd 3d 6s 9s]
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: martytadman (big blind) showed [6d 6h] and won (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 3: SorenKongsgaard didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: billytk01 showed [Ks Qh] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 6: PokerTul didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: fabregarp didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: JoeSkeeter didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: FR8DOGNV (button) didn't bet (folded)


God this site is such a joke..... its amazing how often Full Tilt rewards bad players and bad plays.... how did this guy even call a $300 bet into a $390 pot with two over cards on board, absolutely no draws (only 2 outs to catch) and not much money invested in pot... I'll tell you why he calls! He calls cuz he is bad player, has absolutely no idea of what he is doing and is probably the beneficiary of many prior suck outs compliment of full tilt... such a joke...

all i can say is horrid play, horrid play, horrid play and full tilts rigged software...........


eldave1
February 9, 2009
And if you really want to drive yourself nutty - keep track of all hands where you lose it all or at least 2/3rds of your stack (i.e., the crippling hands) - that as where you will find that the odds go out the window. e.g., I win KK 67.35% of the time when all hands are counted. Hoowever, when it is for an all in - my tourney life at stake = I win less then 40% In addition, I come up against AA far more than expected. The odds of AA and KK being on the same table are 4.39% - However, in all in showdowns - I have run across AA four times (20%) of that amount. Keep track of how many times when facing all ins you:

a) win when you are a fav
b) win when you are a dog

If you experience is like mine - you will find that you win as a fav (again - this is just for showdowns) - 50% or less and you win as a dog 20% or less. You would be happy if these were 50-50 since at least the cards were going both ways - but they don't.

Anyway - I ignore everything statistically other that where was I in the hand (fav or dog and by how much) when all the chips went in - and - the numbers do not ring true.


billytk01
February 9, 2009
to jaywepp... yes that is the point i am making, you cash out your screwed (the length of the cash out curse is unknown)

to nitemare6... I like to think im a good poker player. Im pretty successful in live cash and tourney play. I just play solid starting hands, minimize unnecessary bluffs/risks, and sometimes I like to pick spots and call some raises with suited connectors and such... and most of all i watch and study my opponants tendanciess.. anyway, when i won and placed high in the cash in a few of the FTP tournies all i did was play solid poker, nothing special. Believe it or not when I won the ftp Sunday 750k I was all-in only once and that was at the final table with 3 players left. I only knocked out i believe about 8 players during that tourney as well. Actually, I never did have a huge suck out.. I think I went in to some pots being a slight dog but never totally dominated... What is funny is that when I won the ftp Sunday 750k and finished 4th in the FTP Monday 1k is that in both tourneys I was the bubble boy with the lowest stack in making the money, seriously... so i made both runs basically starting from last in chips when the money was made...

my total run on full tilt was from April, 08 - June, 08... it was during those 3 months when i was hitting all the major money..

Check this- during those 3 months I made the final table of the Sunday 750k 3 times (finishing 1st, 7th-out on a suck out/bad beat and 9th on a suck out bad beat) ** the 9th place finish was never reported to card player or opr cuz for some reason the tourney was considered unfinished or something. this is what cardplayer told me when i inquired why my stats werent posted. I also finished 19th in another sunday 750k.. but like i said, after i cashed out i could not win a hand and every hand seemed like a setup and it usually was...

but to answer your question nitemare6.... I honestly believe you have to have more luck than skill to win a tourney online whereas in live more skill than luck is usually the determining factor.. To prove my point about more luck than skill to win a tourney online all you have to do is watch the final couple tables of the full tilt or poker stars tourneys and see all the horrid play.. people calling allins with any Ax, etc... its comical to watch the final tables...


jaywepp
February 8, 2009
I think the point he's trying to make chief is that once you cash out, even if you're a pro... you can't win.

He's showing you that he was good enough on an initial deposit to win lots of cash... so it's pretty silly to belive the guy couldn't win a game or cash even from that point out.

Hey my biggest accomplishment was turning 50 into more then 1K.. but everytime i've cashed out, I can't win. So much so that i've documented it on here.


nitemare6
February 8, 2009
Hey I am the original "rigged" theorist.

Take a look at "Big Huni". This guy must be the luckiest guy in the world or a great player at age 24. Look at all his cashes in tournies on FTP and elsewhere. So it seems some guys are making some dough online.

If I made 200K playing fking poker I would never say it was rigged again.

So since it is rigged how the heck did you manage to cash for 132K? Was it really just random luck and some good suckouts.... or great play?

Hard to believe that great play alone can win a tournament on FTP.


billytk01
February 8, 2009
to nitemare6....... the reason i say full tilt is rigged even though i won all that money is cuz when i cashed out all the money i won I couldnt win anything after that... nothing but bad beat after bad beat... also if you are short stacked in any tourney you might as well just quit the game cuz full tilt favors the big stacks so much so its ridiculous... and if your short stacked they set up the most ridiculous hands to knock you out... heres an example from full tilts 1.5 million guarantee that i just played tonight and just got knocked out (unfortunately I didnt have the save hand history option checked so I will just post it verbally...) this is an obvious set up if i ever did see one...

the blinds were 250/500 w/ 50 ante.... i was in the small blind with 2,300 chips and the big blind had about 51,000 chips... the hands got dealt and the table all folded to me in the small blind.. I looked down at 9c 4d... so i just called the big blind for another 250 leaving me with 2,050 chips... the big blind checked... the flop came 10s 8s 7s (all spades).. I checked and the BB checked.. the turn brings an amazing 6h giving me a straight... I pushed in and was immediatley called by the BB, he turned over AcAs (4 spades to a flush) and what comes magically on the river.. you guessed it, a 5s giving the bb a flush... that is a complete joke..

Whats amazing is that if the big blind bets on the flop I go away quietly waiting to pick another spot to push, but alas no... the big blind checks and full tilt ensures that i will be in the pot by giving me the straight and then setting up the knock out punch on the river... whats even more funny is when this hand was happening, my wife was watching and i told her exactly what was going to happen and it did.. she was impressed and now understands why i complain and bitch so much when i get bounced out of every one of these rigged tourneys


this is just another example of the completely ridiculous beats, hand set ups.... its a joke and its so f'in predictable...

this hand history is not just another bad beat, hand set up rant.... this is just another example of the garbage that constantly happens in every damn tourney on full tilt...

ps... i finished 1495 out of 5325


nitemare6
February 8, 2009
billytk01


unfkingreal... yoi DID win 132K in a tournament on full rigged tilt. So, is it doable for a regular guy to win some huge money online on FTP withut a rigged game??! I am tempted to start playing again, only in tournies this time , based upon reading your stats.

Thanks for sharing the info.

b.t.w how can you say it is rigged when you won a horrendous amount of money by anyone's standard???!!!

(interestingly I played a game on one table last night for a few hours and ran my buy-in up 4xs. Almost made me FTP born-again. But not quite! night


billytk01
February 6, 2009
all you have to do is watch the final 2 tables of full tilts sunday 750k and pstars 1.5 mil guarantee and see all the horrid play.... you would figure that if a player can navigate their way through 3,000 to 8,000 players to the final 20 players of the tourney at the very least 15 players or so would have some decent skill.. instead its donkeys calling off chips with Axxx on any all in, etc.... these final tables are hilarious.. also eldave1 is right.. if you look at these final table player ratings they all are negative roi's etc.... its horrid....

heres something that always happens in the ring games.... did you ever notice that if you or another player goes all in for the first time in a cash NL or cash limit session that you/they win 95% of the time... this only works on the first all in of a cash/ring game session.... I like to call it the "all-in" rule....


eldave1
February 6, 2009
And to boot - just check the rankings of those who knock you out they are the worst - - my last three tourneys I was knocked oot by a 5.6% ranking, a 4% and a 9% - I'm only a 70% now - of course I was 96% before I cashed out

carlinho
February 6, 2009
Rigged. I`m a winning multitabling sng (10 $ -50 $)player for about 3 Years. and I do a lot of deposits an cashouts on many sites. What I`ve experienced on Stars and espacially on FT is a deposit reward and a cashout curse. Always the same patterns. I get a ridicoulous great run when i place some money there but after a while my hands get busted in a absolute unreal way. It seems that FT tries to figure out if you`re skilled or donkish player in order to protect the bad players in the lower levels who are the fundament in this huge poker pyramide. I´ve experienced that several times on FT and Stars in contrary to other networks like Ongame and I-poker. For example last year I´ve deposited at Stars and instanly i`ve managed to achieve the 2nd place in their weekly "Battle of the planets" which was followed by a horrible downswing. This is just an example. I`ve experienced that many times . I`m using the Poker Tracker Addon "Tourney Luck" for a while now and the outcome is exactly what i just felt before. I guess My Samplesize off all in situations is not big enough yet (3000 All ins) but i`ts just absurd how the Allin-luck (not the skills or style) turns around when changing the platform.

eldave1
February 6, 2009
I promised I wouldn't play on this crock of a site again and I broke my promise. I was playing two MTTs - within a 2 hand period I get AA on one of the MTTs, raise prefllop, get called and beaten by QJ. On the other MTT I get AA, raise prefllop, get called and beaten by QJ. In two tourneys at the same time I get jammed with this crap. I blame myself as I said I would give it up. I can't wait for the day this shit is exposed.

================================================== =
Full Tilt Poker Game #10469384174: $27,500 Guarantee (78986222), Table 54 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:05:46 ET - 2009/02/06
Tooms85 sits down
Tooms85 adds 3,000
Seat 1: bObO6174 (2,990)
Seat 2: eldave1 (2,885)
Seat 3: hochhaus1 (2,970)
Seat 4: Krazee2 (2,905)
Seat 5: Mackey_Vandrell (2,945)
Seat 6: patandur (3,000)
Seat 7: daniel131113 (6,255)
Seat 9: The Russller (3,050)
Mackey_Vandrell posts the small blind of 10
patandur posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ac Ah]
daniel131113 calls 20
The Russller folds
bObO6174 folds
eldave1 raises to 200
hochhaus1 folds
Krazee2 folds
Mackey_Vandrell has 15 seconds left to act
Mackey_Vandrell folds
patandur calls 180
daniel131113 calls 180
*** FLOP *** [4s Qh 8s]
patandur bets 2,800, and is all in
daniel131113 raises to 5,600
eldave1 calls 2,685, and is all in
daniel131113 shows [Js Qs]
eldave1 shows [Ac Ah]
patandur shows [Kh Qd]
Uncalled bet of 2,800 returned to daniel131113
*** TURN *** [4s Qh 8s] [9s]
*** RIVER *** [4s Qh 8s 9s] [7d]
daniel131113 shows a flush, Queen high
patandur shows a pair of Queens
daniel131113 wins the side pot (230) with a flush, Queen high
eldave1 shows a pair of Aces
daniel131113 wins the main pot (8,665) with a flush, Queen high
eldave1 stands up
patandur stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8,895 Main pot 8,665. Side pot 230. | Rake 0
Board: [4s Qh 8s 9s 7d]
Seat 1: bObO6174 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: eldave1 showed [Ac Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: hochhaus1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Krazee2 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Mackey_Vandrell (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: patandur (big blind) showed [Kh Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: daniel131113 showed [Js Qs] and won (8,895) with a flush, Queen high
Seat 9: The Russller didn't bet (folded)

================================================== ===
Full Tilt Poker Game #10469503357: $5,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (78977976), Table 47 - 120/240 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:13:38 ET - 2009/02/06
Seat 1: eldave1 (10,590)
Seat 2: sabbeth4578 (17,760)
Seat 3: BigBang96 (15,295)
Seat 4: KTM_JAY (9,267)
Seat 5: Fishing John (14,560)
Seat 6: SRAC (1,975)
Seat 7: dr_milo (25,785)
Seat 8: Phaydn (23,070)
Seat 9: SCOOP00 (12,600)
eldave1 antes 25
sabbeth4578 antes 25
BigBang96 antes 25
KTM_JAY antes 25
Fishing John antes 25
SRAC antes 25
dr_milo antes 25
Phaydn antes 25
SCOOP00 antes 25
KTM_JAY posts the small blind of 120
Fishing John posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ad As]
SRAC folds
dr_milo folds
Phaydn folds
SCOOP00 calls 240
eldave1 raises to 720
sabbeth4578 has 15 seconds left to act
sabbeth4578 folds
BigBang96 folds
KTM_JAY folds
Fishing John calls 480
SCOOP00 calls 480
*** FLOP *** [Jc Qd 3s]
Fishing John checks
SCOOP00 checks
eldave1 bets 2,505
Fishing John raises to 5,010
SCOOP00 folds
eldave1 raises to 9,845, and is all in
Fishing John calls 4,835
eldave1 shows [Ad As]
Fishing John shows [Js Qc]
*** TURN *** [Jc Qd 3s] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [Jc Qd 3s 8c] [6s]
eldave1 shows a pair of Aces
Fishing John shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
Fishing John wins the pot (22,195) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22,195 | Rake 0
Board: [Jc Qd 3s 8c 6s]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Ad As] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: sabbeth4578 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: BigBang96 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: KTM_JAY (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Fishing John (big blind) showed [Js Qc] and won (22,195) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 6: SRAC folded before the Flop
Seat 7: dr_milo folded before the Flop
Seat 8: Phaydn folded before the Flop
Seat 9: SCOOP00 folded on the Flop


eldave1
February 5, 2009
I have heard the larger number of hands, the more players arguement and have never been convinced. If there are 100,000 players on the site versus a 100, the odds should not change (i.e., AA should beat 55 80% of the time regardless).

To Billy: - if you do start collecting hand stats be careful in the analysis. For example, I have won KK 74% of the time overall including where there was no call of my raise. HOWEVER, only 43% of the time when facing an all in showdown (and yes - most of those times I was the predominant
preflop favorite). So - to really see the rigging, you need to look at all in showdowns and especially focus on hands where at least half your stack is at stake. The second thing I examined in "all in showdowns" was whether or not I was the favorite at the time all the chips went in. 84% of the time I was the fav - I won 48% of those. In the 16% of the times I was the dog - I lost 90% of the time. What it told me was it did not matter if I played tight or loose - either way I was going to lose. And again - many of those favs that lose are to inexplicable calls (the last tourney I played I had K10 in the BB - flop is 10h-10d-2c - rainbow. I shove knowing you cannot slowplay this site and get called by 8c 7c - turn is 5c, river Ac, - I lose and am out on the bubble again.

You can get Poker Tracker free for 90 days - it is neat in that it will replay your hands.

Last note - several months ago I had a computer hard drive failure and I emailed Full Tilt asking for all my hands from 2008 - they would not send them because in their words - teh volume was too big. I think BS.

Anyway. GL


mrkromer
February 5, 2009
I guess so. The other thing I was thinking about was this: Did the site traffic increase significantly compared to when you won most of your 200k vs. after you cashed? Maybe a lot more average to bad players joined the site, just thinking out loud.

For me, the only big cashes I've had were on Stars, 1 sng for $1080 and 1 MTT for about $2200. But I don't play enough to notice a real strong pattern of the after the cash out curse. Of course, these wins happened in April 05 and September 07, so it's been awhile. good discussion though.

mike


billytk01
February 4, 2009
eldave... well said my friend, i couldnt agree more.......

to mrkromer.... yes i agree that some players get looser as their bankrolls get bigger, but I believe those are the players that I believe that lucked into the money to begin with and have no real skill in playing poker...

I dont change my approach or style of play in any tournament I enter regardless of bankroll, etc.... I play a solid, passive aggressive style, while minimizing unnecessarry risks in regards to bluffing, etc... its what good players, do.. they stay the with what works and what works for me is what i stated earlier...

now in regards to bad beats.... yes, i know that happens live or online, that is a fact... but... the bad beats and crazy suck outs have come far more too often and in the most peculiar situations ever since I had cashed out my bankroll on full tilt...

I guess the bottom line is that you really wont understand the patterns of the beats and suck outs until you hit a big score then cash out and attempt to play again.... I guess thats pretty much the only way to experience and understand what we are trying to convey....

the only thing im regretting is I wish I kept a record of hand history of every last hand that I busted out on in a tourney so you can see the ridiculous beats I take to get knocked constantly.....


eldave1
February 4, 2009
I don't think that is the problem. The hand below is typical - had JJ - make preflop raise (4BB) - get called by 2, 3 offsuit and a KJ. Had I lost to the KJ - okay that is a bad beat. The fact that the 2-3 offsuit friggin called in the first place and won is what has been the pattern I experienced after cashing vs. before cashing. So -to me - that is the issue. I saw one pretty straightforward card pattern and play pattern before cashing out and a whole different one after cashing out. Before, I could see why they called (short stacked, pocket pair, etc. etc) and even though I was the favorite, I understood.

Now I am losing hands that are simply unavoidable (I have QQ - flop is Q 3 10 - I shove - get called by A 5 and of course the turn is a K and the river is a J - I go out on bubble again). That is the part that has most of us on Full Tilt - pun intended. We are used to bad beats - we are not used to what we are seeing after we cashed. I'm done with it.



Full Tilt Poker Game #9072889341: $8 + $0.80 Tournament (69418097), Table 5 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:06:50 ET - 2008/11/20
Seat 1: eldave1 (6,427)
Seat 2: hauten (2,410)
Seat 3: RobAbdr (2,028)
Seat 4: x4x-raik-x7x (725)
Seat 5: sfaktis (3,370)
Seat 6: samson67 (1,220), is sitting out
Seat 7: l--lroml--l (1,400)
Seat 8: lazarus714 (4,650)
Seat 9: twalman (2,945)
l--lroml--l posts the small blind of 25
lazarus714 posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Jh Js]
twalman folds
eldave1 raises to 175
hauten has 15 seconds left to act
hauten folds
RobAbdr folds
x4x-raik-x7x folds
sfaktis calls 175
samson67 folds
l--lroml--l calls 150
lazarus714 calls 125
*** FLOP *** [4s 2h 5c]
l--lroml--l has 15 seconds left to act
l--lroml--l bets 1,225, and is all in
lazarus714 folds
eldave1 calls 1,225
sfaktis calls 1,225
*** TURN *** [4s 2h 5c] [2d]
eldave1 bets 5,027, and is all in
sfaktis calls 1,970, and is all in
eldave1 shows [Jh Js]
sfaktis shows [2s 3h]
l--lroml--l shows [Ks Jd]
Uncalled bet of 3,057 returned to eldave1
*** RIVER *** [4s 2h 5c 2d] [8c]
eldave1 shows two pair, Jacks and Twos
sfaktis shows three of a kind, Twos
sfaktis wins the side pot (3,940) with three of a kind, Twos
l--lroml--l shows a pair of Twos
sfaktis wins the main pot (4,375) with three of a kind, Twos
l--lroml--l stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8,315 Main pot 4,375. Side pot 3,940. | Rake 0
Board: [4s 2h 5c 2d 8c]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Jh Js] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Twos
Seat 2: hauten didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: RobAbdr didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: x4x-raik-x7x didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: sfaktis showed [2s 3h] and won (8,315) with three of a kind, Twos
Seat 6: samson67 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: l--lroml--l (small blind) showed [Ks Jd] and lost with a pair of Twos
Seat 8: lazarus714 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: twalman didn't bet (folded)


mrkromer
February 4, 2009
Well, I agree with the odds when the majority of the money went in, no arguments there of course. And of course I agree that it's a bad beat. And I am surprised that you have actually won that much, but congrats on that too, my bad. But the part that still doesn't make sense to me is that you posted on here about a bad beat when you know that they happen all the time. You're obviously a solid enough player to still be way up; maybe over the course of the time since you cashed you've gotten looser? I don't know for sure, but I do know that this is the problem that a lot of players, good and bad, face.

mike


billytk01
February 4, 2009
What happened to roadrunnerr2 is sickening but alas its just another example of the much rigged bs that goes on full tilt....

I have yet to be knocked out of any tourney on full tilt where I didnt have the best hand going in pre or post flop.... (except for the occasional all-in draw, etc...) but its so hilarious that the majority of the time no matter what the bigger stacks are holding they almost always suck out no matter how far behind they are. I guess this is why that full tilts tourneys always start and end at about the same time week in and week out (which is kind of amazing in its own right)...


roadrunnerr2
February 4, 2009
I've been playing Full Tilt for a while and have done alright despite dealing with the horrible play and ridiculous suck-outs. I have to play tighter than I'd like, but my big hands usually get paid off. Sure, hands don't hold up like they should, but I've learned to accept that as the trade-off of getting action when I have the nuts. Tonight may have made me change my mind for good.

I've played 8 SNG's today and have been knocked out by 2 4-outers, 2 3-outers, and 2 2-outers. I got crippled in another tourney after hitting TPTK and running into quads. I'm still alive in the last one only because my AA miraculously held up against A7o. All of the suck-outs came after the flop too, so my odds were even better. I can take a little back luck, and I don't normally whine about bad beats, but what happened to me is beyond ridiculous! I found this site because I really needed a place to vent. Here's a sampling of what I'm talking about. I seriously done with Full Tilt and their bullshit.

NAFAI1 posts the small blind of 20
DETAILINGDAN posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [7h 7d]
Billyhitch folds
SuperBad3 folds
threerivers7 folds
ptloser folds
varsity2x raises to 120
Roadrunnerr2 calls 120
HQQKEM_HQRNS folds
NAFAI1 calls 100
DETAILINGDAN calls 80
*** FLOP *** [Td 7c Ts]
NAFAI1 checks
DETAILINGDAN checks
varsity2x bets 200
Roadrunnerr2 calls 200
NAFAI1 calls 200
DETAILINGDAN raises to 400
varsity2x folds
Roadrunnerr2 calls 200
NAFAI1 calls 200
*** TURN *** [Td 7c Ts] [Kd]
NAFAI1 checks
DETAILINGDAN bets 800
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 935, and is all in
NAFAI1 folds
DETAILINGDAN calls 135
Roadrunnerr2 shows [7h 7d]
DETAILINGDAN shows [Qs Tc]
*** RIVER *** [Td 7c Ts Kd] [Qd]
Roadrunnerr2 shows a full house, Sevens full of Tens
DETAILINGDAN shows a full house, Tens full of Queens
DETAILINGDAN wins the pot (3,750) with a full house, Tens full of Queens
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,750 | Rake 0
Board: [Td 7c Ts Kd Qd]
Seat 1: threerivers7 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: ptloser didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: varsity2x folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Roadrunnerr2 showed [7h 7d] and lost with a full house, Sevens full of Tens
Seat 5: HQQKEM_HQRNS (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: NAFAI1 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 7: DETAILINGDAN (big blind) showed [Qs Tc] and won (3,750) with a full house, Tens full of Queens
Seat 8: Billyhitch didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: SuperBad3 didn't bet (folded)


Full Tilt Poker Game #10424067077: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (78804467), Table 1 - 120/240 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:27:16 ET - 2009/02/04
Seat 2: mordish (2,915)
Seat 3: Wesito76 (1,720)
Seat 5: joewardo (4,455)
Seat 8: Roadrunnerr2 (4,410)
mordish posts the small blind of 120
Wesito76 posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [Kh Ac]
joewardo raises to 840
Roadrunnerr2 has 15 seconds left to act
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 2,400
mordish folds
Wesito76 folds
joewardo calls 1,560
*** FLOP *** [Ah 4h 8h]
joewardo has 15 seconds left to act
joewardo checks
Roadrunnerr2 bets 2,010, and is all in
joewardo calls 2,010
Roadrunnerr2 shows [Kh Ac]
joewardo shows [As Js]
*** TURN *** [Ah 4h 8h] [Jc]
*** RIVER *** [Ah 4h 8h Jc] [3s]
Roadrunnerr2 shows a pair of Aces
joewardo shows two pair, Aces and Jacks
joewardo wins the pot (9,180) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9,180 | Rake 0
Board: [Ah 4h 8h Jc 3s]
Seat 2: mordish (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: Wesito76 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: joewardo showed [As Js] and won (9,180) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 8: Roadrunnerr2 (button) showed [Kh Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces


Full Tilt Poker Game #10423248007: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (78801593), Table 1 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:27:15 ET - 2009/02/04
Seat 2: VMAT2 (1,790)
Seat 3: Orlegard (1,322)
Seat 4: Jon2111 (3,475)
Seat 5: yanknpull (1,323)
Seat 6: grey goose man (2,975)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 (1,290)
Seat 8: Grubasek88 (1,325)
VMAT2 posts the small blind of 25
Orlegard posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [Qh Qd]
Jon2111 has 15 seconds left to act
Jon2111 calls 50
yanknpull folds
grey goose man folds
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 150
Grubasek88 folds
VMAT2 folds
Orlegard calls 100
Jon2111 calls 100
*** FLOP *** [4h 5h Jd]
Orlegard checks
Jon2111 bets 3,325, and is all in
Roadrunnerr2 calls 1,140, and is all in
Orlegard folds
Jon2111 shows [Qc Jc]
Roadrunnerr2 shows [Qh Qd]
Uncalled bet of 2,185 returned to Jon2111
*** TURN *** [4h 5h Jd] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [4h 5h Jd 7c] [Js]
Jon2111 shows three of a kind, Jacks
Roadrunnerr2 shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
Jon2111 wins the pot (2,755) with three of a kind, Jacks
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,755 | Rake 0
Board: [4h 5h Jd 7c Js]
Seat 2: VMAT2 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: Orlegard (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Jon2111 showed [Qc Jc] and won (2,755) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 5: yanknpull didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: grey goose man didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 showed [Qh Qd] and lost with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 8: Grubasek88 (button) didn't bet (folded)


eldave1
February 2, 2009
You can easily get Billy's payouts on the official poker ranking site and what he is saying is true. He did win that much.

In terms of the pre-flop - post flop arguement - he is correct also. It is what the odds were at the time all the money went in (Christ - that is pretty basic or we would just call this Texas Pocket Cards). If an ace hits the flop with no Jack - Billy goes away quietly and says - damn - bad flop. What hit was the J. It put him in the position of being all in and he was - AT THAT TIME - facing a player that was down to two outs.
That was the point of the post. On FT - you constantly get into positions where you are a dominant fav - you act accordingly - then you get punished.

I have had the cash out curse experience as well (although for only a meager $4K). For two years I was in the 95 percenttile of players. After I cashed - I am in the 60 percentile. I did not get bad all of a sudden nor did I experience the same decline in live games. Anyway - that is Billy's point. You cash - you lose.


billytk01
February 2, 2009
This is in response to mrkromer..... if would of took the time to read back to all the other posts, I am not claiming the site is rigged because of one bad beat, etc.. etc... ect... what I am claiming is that in the beginning early last year when I started playing full tilt's tourneys I was killing it (yes i am a good solid player)... I won the sunday 750k on May 4,08 and placed in top 7 in a about another 5 high payout tourneys.... so basically ran to over 200k in just 4-5 months or so... then I made the mistake of cashing out all my money off of full tilt to buy me and wife cars and down payment on new house... and since ive withdrawn the money I have had nothing but bad beats, horrible suck outs...

also mrkromer... if im up over $200,000 (yes thats two hundred-thousand dollars) how is a $215 buy in way over my head explain that one to me,LMAO..... especially when i play in the $1,000 monday 1k on full tilt and $1,000 super tuesday events on pstars.....

and yes that hand history that i posted, I was dominated pre-flop (big deal) call a $600 raise and now I was dominating post flop, extremely dominating on turn with only 2 outs to lose and boom, the magical 2 outer hits in which I see all the time on full Rigged.. also, your assessment that the flop was fucked up but the river corrected what was wrong, if this is your logic in how you view poker then maybe you shouldnt be posting at all... pre-flop i was dog at 18% - 80%, flop I was 87% - 12% favorite, turn I am 95% - 5% dominating favorite... and you know the rest... the sites a joke, ever since i have withdrawn my money off of the site I had nothing but bad beats.. I have yet to get knocked out of full tilt tourney without having the best hand post or pre-flop, its awlays a bad beat suck out.....

feel free to check my 2008 stats on officialpokerrankings.com billytk01


eldave1
February 2, 2009
Joined a special ground hog day full rigged tourney today - they gave all players one free rebuy. Was not going to play but did out morbid curiosity. My theory was because they were giving the free rebuy - they would have tons of action flops and would rigged the deal to achieve that. I lasted about ten minutes. I lost 2 nut flushes to 2 full-houses in a three hand period (below). I am sure I played the hands wrong - but c'mom FT - if you're going to rig for action flops - at least try to fool us!