Full Tilt


About Full Tilt

History

Full Tilt Poker was launched in the middle of 2004 with a lot of promotion. The software was developed by Tiltware, LLC and the site was backed by Team Full Tilt, a group of some of the most talented players in the world. The team was comprised of veterans like Howard Lederer, newer players like Patrik Antonius, and oline players like Tom 'durrrr' Dwan. Besides being involved in the marketing, they played at the site. And unlike other online sites that claim to have professional players associated with their sites, the members of Team Full Tilt actually did play there. Even better, they frequently played low-stakes gams and chatted with other players at the table. In addition to Team Full Tilt, there were over 100 "Full Tilt Pros," professional players who were sponsored by the site when playing at tournaments.

Full Tilt sponsored several poker TV programs, including Poker After Dark. They established their own tournament series, "Full Tilt Online Poker Series" (FTOPS), in 2006.

On July 19, 2009, Full Tilt, as part of their fifth anniversary celebration, attempted to beat the world record for the most players playing in a single online poker tournament. They broke the old record of 35,000 by hosting a tournament with 50,000 players, but this record was beaten later that day by PokerStars.

Controversey

In 2009, Full Tilt Pro Brian Townsend's status was suspended for using another player's hand histories to study high stakes player Isildur1, from whom he won $3m in a single day earlier that month.

In 2008, Full Tilt was sued in Nevada by Clonie Gowen, a popular poker professional and former Full Tilt Pro. She claimed that Full Tilt offered her a 1% ownership of the company in exchange for her involvement. Her claims were dismissed in 2009.

There has been much talkabout Full Tilt being rigged. Even though the online poker conspiracy theorists basically tihnk every site is rigged, Full Tilt seems to bear a disproportionate amount of speculation about having rigged games. Of course, nothing has been proven.

Playing at Full Tilt

Full Tilt is the 2nd largest poker room after PokerStars, and it is one of the few poker rooms with a lot of traffic that is solo poker room. They offer a wide range of limits - from $0.01/$0.02 micro-limit games to $3,000/$6,000 games. They are known for hosting the highest-stakes games in online poker, and are credited with being the home of the largest pots in online poker history. On November 21, 2009, Team Full Tilt Professional Patrik Antonius beat then-anonymous Swedish player Isildur1 for a $1,356,947 pot in a hand of Pot Limit Omaha, the largest online poker pot to date.

Full Tilt offers 100% up to $600 sign-up bonus. They offer freerolls, guaranteed tournaments, satellites for the World Poker Tour, RushPoker mobile, and a Full Tilt store where you can buy merchandise with Full Tilt points. Their software is very good. It has good functionality, is smooth, and you can assign yourself a cartoon avatar (if that is your thing).

In early 2010, Full Tilt offered a new variation of poker, called "Rush Poker", where players do not remain at a specific table. Instead, they join a pool of other players, and, when they fold, they are transferred to a new table and dealt a new hand.

Closure and Re-open

Full Tilt got shut down on Black Friday and stayed closed for many months. It was eventually sold to Pokerstars and was re-opened to non-US customers only in November 2012.

COMMENTS:

Log in to post comments
or Register

i have been grinding freerolls, for a while now and i won $5 last night and $2 the other night, and i played sit and go's and money games after and I was so card dead it was hilarious when i finally got AQ i jammed and i hit an ace on the flop, then the other guy hit and 4 on ther turn and a 5 on the river to make two pair, I just wonder what is there motive i mean maybe to try and get me to deposit because im playing for free but for those people that deposit do they really have any motive to rig you because the cash is just going to other people after you lose

cricket62 on June 11, 2011

I have played on FT for years and have made some money there. HOWEVER, there are things that I have seen on FT that I cannot comprehend. The beats are brutal. I play on many sites about 8 of them and FT has by far the worst beats. It's come to the point that when I'm holding KK and get called all in by Ace rag that I just KNOW the ace is coming.

Poker Invest on May 30, 2011

I have found ELGordo is right there is a difference between playmoney hand and real money hands. I had over $60 on my real money account and I only played in $1.25 tourneys. There are about 30 hands and I am guessing in a tourney play. I played in these tourneys until all my money was gone, I figured I played about 1400 hands. Do you know how many hands I won ( I mean hands not the tourneys) I wom 6 hands out of 1400. I was getting beat everyway you can think of. If there was a card in the deck they needed to win the hand they hit it no matter what the odds were. I actually screamed at my computer screen when I had a straight and the other guy needed a runner runner flush to beat me and he gets it. Another time I had 2 pair and the guy had to get a runner runner of the same card to win and he gets it to put me out. Online poker is designed to rip you off using your love for the game against you. When I started to play the free for fun poker it was still bad but not as. Fulltilt poker will never get another penny from me again. I am so glad to see other people think as I do and I am not alone

seagate91 on May 22, 2011

I have played fulltilt poker for about 2 years now and I have to say the poker tables have to be fixed. I have seen some flops, turns and rivers that are straight out of the twilight zone. For example in a fulltilt texas hold-em poker tourney I got ace low card down 11 times in a row. When have you ever seen that happen? I flopped 4 aces and got beat with a runner runner royal flush. It seems they give you the cards you can't fold to keep you in the game then at the end of the hand you see you have 3 queens (2 queens in the hole) and 3 others have straights and flushes. If you have AQ with AA on the board the other guy has AK. This kind of stuff happens all the time. I know things like this happen in the real world but this is like playing poker in the twilight zone where anything can happen and there is no such thing as odds. odds don't exist. it is so bad you can almost predict the out come of the hand. when I asked fulltilt about these things I have described they said their cards fall random as if a dealer is dealing and I was a sore loser...I don't know what other people are saying but for me it is clear that online poker is crook it as hell.

seagate91 on May 22, 2011

There is def a diff between play money hands and real money hands. I have spent enough time at both to notice. Poker Stars and Full Tilt both. The problem is that I enjoy the game so much I "overlook" what is obvious just for the thrill of the game and it cost. Your table image means nothing on line, you cant push anyone off a hand and if there is a chance a hand killing card can come IT WILL COME and your screwed....my advice, for what its worth.....Play only in the Play Money games and use it as entertainment only, you cant even think of it as practice, if you do in a real game what you can do in a Play Money game, you are going to lose your money. Know how to seperate the "Game", from the "Real Action". Does Derek Jeter or A ROd get better because they paly Wii Baseball? I dont think so. On Line Poker is a GAME, it's rigged to intoxicate the easy moeny player and it should only be used as ENTERTAINMENT. Period.

ElGordo on April 11, 2011

I've never spent the time to gather specific data but I started to develop the feeling that dealt hands were not random. There have been many times that I've been dealt the same hand while multitabling.

Today was the real proof. I saw a player win with pocket aces, next hand he had pocket kings, next hand pocket queens. No freaking way!

tdtuck on April 10, 2011

I have given up on the real money games due to rigging etc. Have been testing the play money games just to see if my suspicions are correct. I believe that the play money sites are more random i.e. why would they bother rigging these etc. Has anyone else noted this. Bottom line is that I think if you are just playing to improve your live game i.e. in real poker rooms you use the play money full tilt. Would appreciate some feedback on this

craighoward on April 9, 2011

Alright, I'm using the last of my free points since I deleted my CC. Fuck them. I only lost $200 but that's $200 of my hard earned money for those crooks.

I seriously want to join anybody who wants to expose them.. just for the mere principle. It's annoying more than anything, just because it's a reminder of the shady character of all the evil corporations and greedy banks and basically all that is fucked up about our world and some of the people in it.

Here's how you win. Put in a LOT of money. For every 1 person who started with $50 and ended up making thousands, you are a rarity, dude. So don't go online talking about how much you practiced and turned 50 into thousands, because, that is exactly what the site wants.

It's called hook line and sinker. The police do this when they go undercover.. they hook one or two of the bad guys, so that those guys can testify to the rest of the gang that these guys are 'good fellas', only to later realize, they all been taken.

But those 2 idiots were too dumb to see it. So all you people convinced you are just so great because of lots of practice and time, you're simply trying to justify all that time and money spent... and it bothers you to hear others whine and complain because it downplays all your hard work, and you want to feel special.


Cause I have won in a couple of tournaments, yet.. I still knew it wasn't my true 'skill' that won it. It was playing so many games that just like the lotto, you will win one day. If being persistent is considered skill, I guess I got major skill at the lotto then...

But I'll never tell anyone else they need to 'practice' more at the lotto, I'll agree with them it's a losing proposition but they need to play only if they have enough funds that losing doesn't hurt them too much... But not rely on it with little money they got and expect instant fortune.

As long as you're rich, and can afford to play and lose and devote the time because you're rich enough to do so.....good for you, just don't make others feel stupid.

It's you I hate, more then the game. You cronies........

In search of true principle on April 8, 2011

Ok, finally found a place everyone knows what's up. It's totally a sham, the type of hands are so laughably bad and unbelievable.. "Variance".. suree buddy.

A lighting stuck you 3 times.. Variance dude. Get over it.

Yeah, but what if lighting stuck you 3 times every thursday for the last 6 months? Still variance??

Uh huh.

FT.. and I'm sure the others, are run by the worst scum ever. Those same bratty kids who were smart enough to con you by altering the rules, just a tad bit, so that you'd never notice.. but were left in utter disbelief, that's the type of people behind these sites.......


Just stop giving them your money. Where can I sign up to join in on an anti-online poker movement?? Cause that's what we need. to out them, publicly..

There's too many cronies and idiots out there defending it, and worst is the TV pros make it seem totally legit.

I got no gripes against those guys, they got skills up the ass, I totally respect them, but.. I think they have no reason to discredit these sites when that could only hurt them..

But it convinces lot of dumb people it must be legit.

Well, in that case, I'll go do a drive by shooting.. Cause, they did it on TV?!? So it must be real..

Idiots.. just because a site is sponsored, has fancy commericals, and is a legit looking corporate site does not mean it's playing a random deck of cards.

Video poker in Vegas ain't random. But we know this. And knowing this changes our strategy. But online poker is not claiming to be like video poker, it's claiming to be a true random dealt hand. That's where the problem is......

If they'd only admit it's like video poker, and that our playing strategy should reflect that, then, we can take our losses with stride.


If I lose at video poker I know it's not because I played bad. It's cause, the machine was not hot that day... But I don't blame myself.

In search of true principle on April 8, 2011

Just leaving FTP for the very reasons stated in this forum. Seems there are some truly "skilled" NL players out there that have no problem calling high stake all in bets/raises with off suit un- conectable hole cards. Also, I actually escaped a deep loss when I folded QQ in a 6 hand table to two other players that had AA and KK. Tell me that was not designed to raise the pot/rake. Only reason to fold QQ was that I have seen the same situation way too often on here. Had much the same problem with Everest by the way.

PompeyBlue on April 2, 2011

I have heard the rumors about full tilt being rigged etc etc. I call shenanigans. Not rigged. Juiced. From my experience agg. players are rewarded at a rate that defies logic. I am so sick and tired of hearing the donkey/variance argument. I can sit in a casino for 8 hours a day for a year grinding 2/5 NLHE and not once see quads over quads, saw that 2 times today. I can raise pre-flop with Q-K and Q-J, hit 7-8-9 and 8-9-2 on the flop and scoop a large pot, on tilt the 7-8-9 flop gets shoved up my ass when the player goes all in with 10-10 and hits, 9-10 to pull out the full house, and and on the 7-8-9 board calls my all in with A-6 and backdoors the nut flush. I would tell you guys about outlasting 6000 people to lose in 18th spot with a flopped full house to a 4 card royal flush this past Saturday but I think I might cry if I have to recount that hand.

We can't all be wrong, or right. I think the software rewards aggressive play IE the player who goes all in will win more hands than the player that calls regardless of cards.

I hit the "I have a gambling problem button" tonight and banned myself for a year and a half, I will NEVER go back to full tilt, its not internet poker, its more like internet bingo.

Cheers

c0findancer on March 24, 2011

I'll just comment when I get ousted from a tourney to the table before logging out...

Fool Tilt Jokers give poker a bad name.

Chip Juice on March 17, 2011

I have a spreadsheet with figures from my last 37,806 hands played at FTP in mostly 6max tournaments. I can't post a spreadsheet here, but anyone that wants it, please email me. In short, there were 2,492 pocket pairs dealt to me, the average being 192. AA was 41 below average, KK 23 below average, QQ 14 below average, JJ 24 below average, TT 35 below average. 66 and 77 were both 43 above average. Not only that, but by position things were quite off as well. The total amount of pairs by position are as follows:
first position 141, second position 181, third position 260, dealer 435, (which was the closest to average), but the big blind was 807, and the small blind was 668. Those frequency numbers by position are unbelievable! 141 pairs at first position compared to 807 at the big blind! That's over 5 times as many pocket pairs in the big blind compared to first. Add that to the lower frequency of higher pairs and it sure stinks to me. Again, if you want the actual spreadsheet, send me an email.

facts are facts on February 28, 2011

FTP is evil. Ive played at least 5000 games at Full Tilt Poker since September 2010. Before that I had won about 35K in about 7,000 games averaging $12 stakes at PS, merge, pokertime, and cake. And I'm as good as I've been since I started and still cant win at tilt. Yes Iv'e won like $2,500 profit in the last 6 months at ftp. Which is horrible profit when your always gettin in good!!!! Garbage bad beats constantly and dead cards.


So after I felt it was rigged I started keeping track off my allin showdowns in the step satelites and tournies, I find that I lose in every category except High pockets vs Low pockets. Really Tilt? My race showdowns in January was a 161 races won....and 236 races lost lol. Every month same crap since I started keeping up with them. Last month or so its been alot of dead deals. I play like 80 -120 hands every time out. My chat was banned for 3 months to lol. I'm not going to quit bc I can play the satelites over and over w/o losing money bc I get that ticket back most of the time.
Eventually when you get your step 3 ticket they gotta let u cash in a tourney at some point.


I think it's rigged to build the player base. Because if donkeys lost too much in this economy do you think they'd keep playin?? It's rigged to build the player base and let donkeys in satelites win so they can experience the rush of playin in the big Guarantees!!! That will keep them happy even though they're -2,200 at the site over a year. As long as they have a shot in the 750K every now and then they'll be happy.


After I get several months of stats I'm going to do something about it. Ive come up with a good system for tallying my allins and putting them into an excel spreadsheet. About 8 different categories I use for my allins. I'll post again later.

big bet j on February 10, 2011

Oh, and I forgot to mention this one hand I was in, where I was dealt AA and called an all-in preflop. 5 people went all in. Hands were:
AA
AA
KK
KK
10-9
Guess who won.

FTPisRigged on January 19, 2011

I've been playing Full Tilt now for about 6 years as a hobby ($10 tourney here, $1-2 cash game, etc. I take the games seriously, but never expect to come out on top since FTP is rigged. I knew it going in. Don't mind losing the $10/night because it's fun. I win the occasional tourney, but overall, I don't have much expectations on this site. I just find too many players doing unexpected things to think that this site isn't rigged. Example: Cash game - I have KK on button. 3rd position raises twice the BB. I reraise 10x's the BB. He calls. Flop is J-6-2 all different. I raise a little over half the pot. He calls. Next card out is a 9. He checks and I raise the pot. He calls. River is a 7. He checks and I check thinking something is fishy (maybe he had a set). No, he had a 10-8 unsuited. I'm like, wow, ok. So, I tell him, nice hand, but what did you think I had. He says nothing and leaves. Again, just saying, more times than not, my AA's or KK's get cracked. I'll keep playing, but are there other sites that people trust more than FTP?

FTPisRigged on January 19, 2011

I'll start by saying I'm an average player. In live games I generally do well. I've been playing for over 10 years and have a pretty fair idea of what's realistic and what's not, in terms of how cards will play out. FT is extremely unrealistic imo. I usually play 2 games at a time, and it defies the odds of probability how often I have the same 2 cards in each hand. I won't say FT is rigged, but I will say it's "designed" to slowly take all your money over an extended period of time. I haven't got much left on account there and once it's gone, will never be back to that site.

Garycontrol on January 7, 2011

I just encountered a really weird hand. I know single hands don't prove anything, but get this:

I get AA, raise 4BB preflop to get maybe 1-2 callers. I get in fact one caller.

The flop is 26J, I raise pot-size. Other player calls. Turn is an 8, no flush draw out there. So now the other player raises me 15BB, quite a significant raise. But I still think my Aces are good, so I reraise him all in. He calls.

The river is 9. And guess what: The other player shows T7 and takes down my whole stack with a 4-outer river straight. How is such play even possible? After I raised preflop, on the flop and all-in on the turn he calls that for a gutshot draw? And hits the miracle card on the river?

Next hand I play AQ top pair flopped vs T6o and lose to the same player who hits 2 pairs on the turn. After that hand i complain and he immediately leaves the table.

Secone hand is standard, but the first one? Come on - not even a total idiot would overplay a 4-outer like that, unless --- he knew what was coming or unless he wasn't a real player at all. Not even a trained monkey shoves all his stack for a 4-outer gutshot when he is OBVIOUSLY beaten on the turn. RIGGED SCAM!

smeisner on November 20, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Attack View Post
I just don't get all the talk about the site(Fulltilt) being rigged....I am now at @$200(was at around $100 when I last posted) playing mostly .02/.05 RushNLHE.... I was at $225+/- a few days ago, but I hit a bad run, plus I started multi-tabling to take advantage of their take 2 bonus...I actually ran it down to 185+/-( i ignored my money management philosophy and was tilting a bit)....I don't think mutli-tabling is good for me:P...but I had a good run tonight and I am back over $200...I just don't see how you guys are getting called so much with AA....I swear that I rarely get action when I have AA (I usually raise about 3.1x the BB no matter what I am opening with) ...I would say about half the time I get AA, I have to open with them. Everyone usually folds and I get the Blinds...plus, when someone open raises from early and I am in late position or in the blinds with AA, I usually call with them(trying to get value)....and I also try not to get too crazy with them postflop...besides, those hands make up such a small percentage of the total hands that I play. What I have learned lately is how and when to get rid of QQ and JJ pre and postflop without feeling like I might have tossed a winner...If someone could show me some proof over about 200K hands I might begin to believe it....it's really hard for me to believe that it is evidence of rigging when someone is talking about 2-5 buyins....I have lost 2-4 buy ins in a night only to come back and win 6-12....4 or 5 bad beats is nothing....
Give it another 6 months and then come on here and say FTP is legit ;)

what odds on October 27, 2010

I just don't get all the talk about the site(Fulltilt) being rigged....I am now at @$200(was at around $100 when I last posted) playing mostly .02/.05 RushNLHE.... I was at $225+/- a few days ago, but I hit a bad run, plus I started multi-tabling to take advantage of their take 2 bonus...I actually ran it down to 185+/-( i ignored my money management philosophy and was tilting a bit)....I don't think mutli-tabling is good for me:P...but I had a good run tonight and I am back over $200...I just don't see how you guys are getting called so much with AA....I swear that I rarely get action when I have AA (I usually raise about 3.1x the BB no matter what I am opening with) ...I would say about half the time I get AA, I have to open with them. Everyone usually folds and I get the Blinds...plus, when someone open raises from early and I am in late position or in the blinds with AA, I usually call with them(trying to get value)....and I also try not to get too crazy with them postflop...besides, those hands make up such a small percentage of the total hands that I play. What I have learned lately is how and when to get rid of QQ and JJ pre and postflop without feeling like I might have tossed a winner...If someone could show me some proof over about 200K hands I might begin to believe it....it's really hard for me to believe that it is evidence of rigging when someone is talking about 2-5 buyins....I have lost 2-4 buy ins in a night only to come back and win 6-12....4 or 5 bad beats is nothing....

Jack Attack on October 18, 2010

50/50.

mrkromer on August 9, 2010

Does anyone know what the odds are for 3 aces on the flop, then the odds that 1 player would hold an ace with 3 players at the table?

congrats on August 8, 2010

At the end of the day Buck22, if you won't admit the site is rigged then you should play on there IMO-

- only site online that has dealt RB deal, paid weekly and you can use a HUD (no HUD on Cake and full of nits)

- One of the best sites out there in terms of software, very easy to use and very good for multitabling

- also have half yearly bonuses for decent volume players

I mean FTP is in theory a GREAT place to play, that is of course, until you play there over a large sample and realise it is rigged for pure non stop action. If you won'r admit you think it may be rigged, then play on IMO, I know if I thought FTP was random or never had house players, I'd be playing there full time.

But I ain't played there in over a year now I'd guess because i'll admit to myself what I saw on that size over large sample sizes just wasn't random occurences, there is no way the turn and river cards dealt on that site could ever be considered random by any half intelligent person with experience in how poker works.

what odds on August 5, 2010

Buck22, finally you have come to see the light LOL

It is only a matter of time before any half decent thinking reg will realise how much FTP sucks if they put in a good amount of volume there.

You argued with me non stop but finally you've come to realise as I knew you would. I'm currently an NL50 semi pro reg, yet I couldn't beat NL5 on FTP over the 50,000 hands I forced myself through just to prove it was rigged.

I know you won't admit it is technically 'rigged', but if the game is random, it should be the same as PS where you are a winning player, as I am and at all other sites I've ever played, except the Entraction network which IMO is just as rigged as FTP.

As I've said countless times, the turn and river almost always determine the outcome of a hand or encourage more action, HEM is proof as i've pointed out many times and it just makes for a horrible action orientated game.

I know a few regs at NL100/200 who just go on epic downswings at FTP and it just BAFFLES MY VERY SOUL how people can be so ignorant as to play on at a site that is so blatantly rigged once you play a good sample.

I know you'll never outright admit FTP is rigged but you know something is up, I'd even argue the players at PS at NL50 and NL100 are slightly better than at FTP, yet there are many solid regs who cannot win at FTP no matter how well they play- constant set up coin flips in 3 bet hands that you are set to win in order to hammer you with bad beats to tilt you- it is all there in HEM for people to look.

But your post made me laugh, it must be bad if a player who defended the site for so long won't play there ever again...

what odds on August 4, 2010

Short version of the story: Played over 20k hands on FTP in 7 days and i`ve been mostly winning, no more no less then on other sites (mostly DBR and Bwin) BUT from those 20k hands i`ve beed All in preflop with the better hand (AA vs JJ, TT vs 99, KK vs QJ) ~200 times. From those 200 hands that should normally go 80%/20% for me i`ve won only ~55% of them. The funny part is that i`ve also went all in preflop with the worst hand for ~60 times, also hands that should normaly run 80/20 to the hand in front and i`ve WON ~40% of those. EVEN THOU 20k hands is not much and 260 its not a very good field to make statistics on I`M 100% sure that Full Tilt Poker will help the worst hand win a lot more then it should.

THE WHY (my theory) A good player will grind his winnings of the fish and eventually the fish will run out of money and will leave the game (site). Also a good poker player will usually have the better hand when going ALL IN pre flop. SO in order to give the fish some of his money back and keep the tables going (and the rake).

Don`t get me wrong you can still make some money on Full Tilt BUT:
1st You make a lot less then if the games was NOT rigged.
2nd It takes a lot of skill and experience to not go tilt (and lose more money) after loosing twice (or three time) in a row with the best hand.
3ed Playing good solid poker with premium starting hands its a professional poker player "bread and butter" not being able to go all in with what you know is the best hand (because you know you have a bigger chance of loosing then math says you do) will damage your game a great deal.
4th why should you trust a poker room that "mildly" rigs its game.

poe2000ro on July 25, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iknowpoker View Post
I have been playing Fulltilt Poker for over 4yrs. When you do anything long enough you can recognize a pattern. So, lets throw out the idea that everyone is a donk and don't know how to play. In my opinion, I think there is a timer for each tournament.

Each game only lasts a certain amount of time based on the amount of players that are in the tournament. Think about it....bandwidth costs money. It wouldn't be that hard to place a timer within the software to assure that games don't last too long.

All the evidence is there. Next time your at table and see a really short stack all in, look at the strength of the all in hand compared to the call.
The short stack can have AA and still will lose to some bs.

And for those who think online poker is real poker, ask yourself this question.....Is there any burn cards in online poker?? It makes a ton of difference. Don't believe me, watch Luck You starring Eric Bana.

Whether your a believer or not... We must all admit that there is a ton of blogs about online poker being rigged, and it would be biased to say that everyone is a donk or don't know how to play.

Anytime numbers don't make sense, then there is a problem. You can have an up and down straight flush draw, but it won't hit nearly as much as a three outter(A10 vs KK or AK vs AJ). The ace is a golden card online. Although there are only 4 of them, the odds of one hitting the table is just a probable as the sun coming up next week.
This should just about cover it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJ...eature=related

DaNutFullHouse on July 15, 2010

I think that is a very fair approach to take. You took an objective view of your play at a particular site and saw that you weren't winning - for whatever reason - and decided to stop playing there. You made a point not to say that the site was rigged, since you didn't have proof. Instead, you developed a Plan B.

HPG ADMIN on July 15, 2010

Im done with Fulltilt, not saying it's rigged but for some reason it is the one site I'm gaurunteed to lose over large hand samples. My thread/blog...

http://www.homepokergames.com/vbforu...ad.php?t=38802

....documents my struggle to grind $10 to $23k last year at pokerstars and various sites which involved 1 major downswing of 40+ buy ins over the 15 months. I achieved my goal and my game has never been more on form and yet after 3 months at Fulltilt im down $2k from FORTNIGHTLY 40 BUY IN SWINGS! Its so far from natural!

There is something fishy going on when a proven winning player with a good winrates loses $2k over 60k hands whilst making sure he is selecting just losing players and has NEVER trusted the site over the 6 years he has played there on and off.

Ive rescued the remains of my NUMEROUS deposits and will NEVER return to Fulltilt, i keep records of my dep/cashouts and every page has been around 3 cashouts to every deposit. Since Fulltilt the page is virtually ALL deposits making it SOOOOO obvious its time to leave, shouldn't be happening to a 6ptbb/100 winner at NL100 on stars.

Returned to stars today and played 1k hands of HU NL100 and it was a breath of fresh air, INSTANTLY feeling the difference when playing. Whatever it is that keeps me consistantly losing at a discusting LOSE rate at Fulltilt, Im done trying to figure it out when seemingly out-playing/thinking bad opponents.

I wash my hands of that crazy site!

buck22 on July 15, 2010

Yes it's rigged. Most of them are, believe me.
I'm a big winner on Stars (21bb/100) in a two year period. Started with $2 they gave me and turned into a real big number. I could play with my eyes closed. I joined Ipoker, Full Tilt and Party Poker and all hell broke loose.
On Ipoker I was running at 19bb/100 for the first two months, the boards looked similar to Stars. I then received a email from them to play x weekend because they would give 100% rakeback+bonuses that weekend. Look, the things that happened that weekend were impossible. I had more sets over sets than I ever saw in my life playing poker. Countless two pair vs better two pair. And get this, over 40 sets against me in a 12 hour period!! I play 6max but It was like I was playing 20max tables. I changed tables, I changed seats, I took brakes but everytime I was in a hand I got coolered. I lost two months worth of work in 12 hours to that rigged network.

Full Tilt and Party Poker have very similar patterns, most of them discussed here already. The thing I most notice in these two sites are the endless boards with 4 cards of the same suit that counterfeit all my hands and the endless wet boards that always hit the guy who is up against me. I also love the paired boards on these two sites. Everytime that pair hits me and makes me a set villain has the same set with bigger kicker!! lool. If you learn poker one of the major things you learn is that when a board is paired there is only a small chance villain has the set, and when you do have that set the chances of villain having it also decreases dramatically... well, not on Full Tilt, it actually increases... Better yet, changing seats, changing tables, changing stakes, taking breaks never ever works! You will just not win period!

Enter Pokerstars, no one ever has anything on 6max tables. Odds always seem to be right. Most boards are dry. In a two year period I rarely had sets over sets or second nuts vs the nuts. Idiots chasing draws without odds hit it once in a full moon. Taking breaks, changing seats, changing tables actually work when you are running bad (that's one of the best ways to know if it's rigged, because if you play 6 or 9 tables and changing all those things don't actually change anything you can be sure something fishy is going on)!!
That said, I can't see any patterns on Stars (I only play cash games though) so I can say it's the only site I trust so far.

Syn on July 11, 2010

I tried out Rush Poker for the 1st time today. Damn. Deposited $100, bought in to a full ring .25/.50. About 10 hands in I get AA vs. 1010 all in, hits 7 8 9 J for straight. WTF. Buy in for another 50 and I am hitting amazing cards! Set after set, flopped 2 pair, etc. Back up to about $90, get AA again vs. 10J, flop is 8 9 Q. Get the fuck out of here.

mike

mrkromer on July 3, 2010

I actually came across this site looking for a reason why the traffic on Fulltilt seems to have died...as far as it being rigged...I have been playing the site since the US player ban was put on Party Poker and Poker Room...I have been playing on the same $160 dollar buy-in since then...my bankroll has been as low as $8 and as high $300...when I play a lot, it seems to go up...which leads me to believe that I am probably playing better then....right now I am sitting at about $100 and about 10,000 FTP points. I am playing .25/50 and .50/1.00 FL Hold'em .05/.10 NL RUSH Poker and tourneys that range in price from $1.10 to. $5.50...I can't say that I have seen anything that I would consider long term abnormalities since I have been playing on the site...If you play the free games, I am sure it seems like all of your big PPs are getting beat because of the number of people that are calling...but I can tell you that the number of times that I hit my small PPs on the flop seem to be about right(1 in 7)....I find that the more aggressive I play, the better I do...except when I run across overly aggressive players...that's when I tend to lose...I start calling too much...but I don't think it's fixed...I think people who play too tight/passive want to find the blame for why they are losing....I have been busted out of plenty tourneys with AA and won a bunch of hands with AA...also the length of the tourneys are determined by the rate of the blind increases...I saw a post that said the tourneys seem to last a fixed length...well, DUUH!!! when the blinds reach about 1/50 to 1/10 of the total chips in play, it can end at any time...for obvious reasons...

Jack Attack on July 3, 2010

I decided to give Fulltilt a try. I played for a couple of weeks. I noticed every big hand I was in I lost on the river. I flopped sets, straights and flushes and lost them all. It seemed to happen a lot so I went back to my hand histories. What I was not expecting to see was winning less than 1% of the time in these cases. When I saw this I cashed out my remaining balance and won't be putting anymore funds in this account. I'm glad I found this forum so I know I'm not crazy.
- cheers

Mason99 on June 9, 2010

http://www.pokertableratings.com/blo...poker-network/

Cerues third scandal that is what he is talking about.

DaMAn on May 14, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
So so so so gutted! Im in major pokersite limbo and so f***ed off with the whole damn industry that ive been so loyal to.

Pokerstars - BANNED
Fulltilt - NO RAKEBACK
Cerues - 3 SCANDALS
Cake - CHEATS NOW HAVE HUD's
Ipoker,Party - NO RAKEBACK + HIGHER RAKE
Others - NO TRAFFIC

Where the hell can I go, i know im being anul about rakeback but pokers gotten way too tough to ignore the amount raked at $0.5/1,$1/2 etc

Why are you banned in pokerstars and have scandals in Cereus? Have you done bad actions on those sites?

Offsuit27 on May 10, 2010

So so so so gutted! Im in major pokersite limbo and so f***ed off with the whole damn industry that ive been so loyal to.

Pokerstars - BANNED
Fulltilt - NO RAKEBACK
Cerues - 3 SCANDALS
Cake - CHEATS NOW HAVE HUD's
Ipoker,Party - NO RAKEBACK + HIGHER RAKE
Others - NO TRAFFIC

Where the hell can I go, i know im being anul about rakeback but pokers gotten way too tough to ignore the amount raked at $0.5/1,$1/2 etc

buck22 on May 7, 2010

I played on Absolute Poker for awhile and the suckouts are just unreal. People calling my Nut Flush on the flop with none of the suited cards in their hand and starting with small pair and weak kicker...calling to the river to get a full house. No rhyme or reason for these types of calls. It happens all the time. I thought that it was just a coincidence at first but I saw it happen way to much and usually for the same players and to other victims. The limit size didn't matter either it is not just a micro donk calling as they are stupid or dont care it happens in the bigger games more so.
I wonder if the RABBIT feature is hackable. I think it should be done away with as I think that it has somehow been exploited. I don't know if FTP or PS has it but AP does and this may be the thing behind these players supposed ESP.

My advice stay away from online poker. Until the U.S. steps in and regulates it and protects it's players!! Which by the look of it is not going to happen.

You have no protection and no regulation. You do the math.

Open your eyes people if has been done before (cheating) and is still being done.

There is just to much that doesn't make sense and if it doesn't make sense then it just isn't real true or right.

DaMAn on April 29, 2010

to: buck22

you made a post earlier about the sites not rigging action to make a bigger rake because rake is only usually about 5% with a $3 max, and because of this theres no point in trying to make bigger pots because nothing more will be taken out... but... what you are failing to realize is that they are rigging action to ensure that the full 5% or $$ max rake is reached.... lets say over a 100,000 hand period an average of only $2.00 rake per hand was reached (that means FT made $200,000 was made on rake) where as if the $3 max was reached during the same 100,000 hands (that would be $300,000)

you see whether its 25cents, $1, or max $3 per rake it is a big difference in profit margin when you look at the bigger picture overall....

billytk01 on April 28, 2010

I have been playing Fulltilt Poker for over 4yrs. When you do anything long enough you can recognize a pattern. So, lets throw out the idea that everyone is a donk and don't know how to play. In my opinion, I think there is a timer for each tournament.

Each game only lasts a certain amount of time based on the amount of players that are in the tournament. Think about it....bandwidth costs money. It wouldn't be that hard to place a timer within the software to assure that games don't last too long.

All the evidence is there. Next time your at table and see a really short stack all in, look at the strength of the all in hand compared to the call.
The short stack can have AA and still will lose to some bs.

And for those who think online poker is real poker, ask yourself this question.....Is there any burn cards in online poker?? It makes a ton of difference. Don't believe me, watch Luck You starring Eric Bana.

Whether your a believer or not... We must all admit that there is a ton of blogs about online poker being rigged, and it would be biased to say that everyone is a donk or don't know how to play.

Anytime numbers don't make sense, then there is a problem. You can have an up and down straight flush draw, but it won't hit nearly as much as a three outter(A10 vs KK or AK vs AJ). The ace is a golden card online. Although there are only 4 of them, the odds of one hitting the table is just a probable as the sun coming up next week.

Iknowpoker on April 27, 2010

Teehee this thread's still going. Got to admit I watched my mate playing on fulltilt this weekend and the amount of cold decks and suckouts was just freakin ridiculous, I mostly put it down to how often there is an 'all in' in lowstakes SNG's but sh** me, thats the worst run of luck i seen since stars gave my account the boot.

ps Cake Poker and Ultimate bet rule

buck22 on April 18, 2010

Everyone here seems to have a lot of stories about FT screwing them. Why didn't you all quit the second you thought something wasn't right? It shows terrible judgement to play in a poker game where you think you are being cheated. Either you subconsciously know its not rigged or you are just total suckers. Those are the only 2 possible reasons I can see for playing at a site after you have a feeling its rigged. If there are more I would love to know.


ps- this doesn't include the whatodds 50k hand crusade, i believe he actually did that for the reasons he claims

VA Poker on April 15, 2010

Most of you that stick up for full tilt is naive or you work for the company. It's so obvious what the site is programmed to do. You withdraw or win a decent size tourney, than they start to fuck you really hard. Big stacks sucking out on smaller stacks consistently, of course its so random. Setup hands after another. The software is really really tilty. Like most posters have said, the worst hand is the nuts on tilt and percentages and favorites,HA forget about it. Also, If you guys ever seen the winnings of some online players is ridiculous. Some guy win the 750k, sunday brawl on the same day? I mean what the hell is going on iwht these sites. Some players win a big tournament and they don't ever play a single game after that? Go check out the lifetime winnings of some players. So many "one and doners". I know for sure it is rigged.

fullfilth on April 10, 2010

I played on Full Tilt for play and real money. I play Texas Holdem.

First of all, the play money games seem alot more random. Everyone that can play half-way decent does well.

The real money games have two many coincidences. I came across too many to mention but the two that stuck out for me are the following:

1. I had my Ace full of Kings(AAAKK) get beat by 4 Kings (KKKK). the 4th king came on the river.

2. I had my flush Ace High with clubs get beat by a Kings full of twos. The last two came on the river and it was a club....

....come on now. Seriously?

anonyplr on March 19, 2010

I had deleted all my posts from this thread but thought I'd post again after sitting back and watching the debate.

This is something anyone can try, sign up to a training site, any one, I'm not here to advertise, watch a small stakes game and pick out a few players and then go to PTR and check out their stats.

A pattern will emerge over time in that TAG players who mostly rely on showdown equity for the bulk of their win rate will not be winners at FTP. Yet these same players do quite well at other sites such as PS.

The players that beat FTP are semi-TAG or LAG, they push non showdown winnings (the red line on your graphs).

There is no right or wrong way to play poker, showdown reliant TAG's who play solid and aggressive can have nice win rates but the fact these guys don't win at FTP help support what I have always argued and the stats in my HEM have always indicated.

Showdown winnings on FTP are manipulated. Across all sites my win rate when the PFR flopping two pair+ is +1,300bb/100 average (across 9 sites).

On FTP, the exact same filter of raising pre flop and flopping two pair or better is just +650bb/100. So my win rate in these spots has been literally halved.

If you take the time to look at the hand histories you will see that you almost always seem to run into a flush draw, someone turns a gut shot vs your set etc.

On FTP as the PFR who flops well, you will get coolered and outdrawn on the turn or river way more than what would happen at any other site. This is designed by the site, aggressive player flops well and bets like he should, loose player calls and flops a draw or turns a flush draw etc etc. It isn't that the draws hit more than they should, it is the fact that the draw itself was flopped when the PFR flopped well. Too coincidental and every database I've checked shows the same manipulation every time.

There is just too much evidence now against FTP being random. It is OK if one player can beat all other sites except FTP, but when you get a lot of players who can do well and hold their own anywhere else and yet they suffer at FTP, given they play the same solid TAG style, then you can only give the benefit of the doubt so many times.

Also, quite recently, I have a 30,000 hand sample of FTP where I played the following strategy-

- FOLD EVERYTHING except suited cards, so even fold AA/KK.

- Limp these suited cards, never raise them. Continue in a hand, never raising, just play super loose passive, cashe draws and try and catch two pair hands etc.

I actually came out with a 1.5bb/100 win rate over 30,000 hands of NL25!

The most horrific stat of all that arose is that my flush got paid off 84% of the time! This directly links to the theory of the PFR flopping well and running into draws too often. 84% of the time I chased a flush draw and hit, I GOT PAID OFF at showdown. This doesn't happen in real life, players raise AK, maybe c-bet a flop of 785 and then give up. They don't pay off flushes! They only pay off flushes if they have a hand so in HEM you'll see lots of sick hands such as player opens AK, fish calls 7h 5h.

Flop is Ac 6h 2h. Turn blanks, river comes Ah or Kh to give the PFR trips or two pair and give the fish a rivered flush. Fish donks half pot river, TAG calls with a solid hand. It happens throughout every database I have studied, time and time again.

what odds on March 13, 2010

Just watched some donk suckout 4 hands played in a row a 4 to 1 dog, taking me out on the last one. 86 hands in, 1st PP 10 10, he calls my shove (barely 10x the BB since I had no playable hands what so ever to this point) with 10 9 off and of course hits a 4 card flush. So I'm trolling around and find a moderator on fulltilt forum laying out all the ussual aurguments about why Fulltilt isnt rigged it's all skill blah blah. Funny he's lost a good amount of money on pokerstars and won a good amount on Fulltilt. Skill should be skill right if all the sites are truely random. Just makes me wonder him working for FT why he seems so much more "skilled" playing there. Jaconda78 is the name. BTW agreeing with other posters, I'm dealt a 2 well over 50 percent. Average a PP once every 50 hands. And every game has a "suck" hand I get over and over, like Q7 off etc, but I get dealt an A +10 maybe once every 100 hands. About as random as my ass. Cards went from good to complete shit after cashing out a 7th place big tourny cash. Must be coincidence I'm sure

zizzle frizzle on March 11, 2010

Nah, i just do translations now:

All I want to do is cry....

So I put 100 on, hey, I sucked out 4 times before right? But I'll just mention my 1 bad beat.

So I put another 100 today...lost pocket 10's to pocket 5's, of course he flopped a set before the money went in but hey ho, ill leave that out. I called QQ against KK, the next day and 5 of my own suckouts later, another guy pushes A3 against my 66!

Again, on the surface my whole debate falls flat on its arse when considering alls those odds surmount to 19 to 1, well within the realms of possibility in an every day game......But honestly, you have illogical plays like them calling a set of 5's, pushing KK and shoving with an ace and CRAZY results like 19/1, I mean what are the odds of that?

I have no case, proof and barely a point so please don't critisize this post with logic and reason and hopefully a false accusation of your motives should keep you at bay.

buck22 on March 11, 2010

All I can do is laugh....

So I put another 50 on... Hey, I doubled up last time right.. Might as well go for it again.. despite the bad beats on the back end of that double up...

So I put up another 50 today.... pocket tens preflop loose to a guy pushing all in with pocket fives.... i get pocket queens preflop and get pushed by a guy with pocket kings.... Another game a guy is pushing with ace 3 all in preflop when i have pocket sixes...

Again, on the surface some of these may not seem like ridiculous things.... But honestly, in 3 straight games you have illogical plays and either illogical results or cards that are unlikely to be against eachother.

Save the defensing of the sight at this point. I think we all know by now if you're on here looking to discredit any post, you clearly have another motive then just being an interested party.

jaywepp on March 10, 2010

When you go onto full tilt poker most of the players are playing at the micro limits, not the 1 and 2 dollar tables. The rake is almost never capped at those tables so it is in the best interest of the site to deal action hands.

Imagine if all the donks were to go broke and never deposit again because they realized that they suck at poker. What would happen to the sites rake. Correct the rake would decrease because 95 percent of the players would go broke and leave the site. The only way to keep them playing and maximize the rake is to allow them to win. Visit fulltiltisrigged to learn more.

Obviously you did not read too far into my site because I have a whole section on why the cards are rigged and not once do I state that the site is rigging the cards to only screw me. Look at all the pics of my playing for 1 day on ub. Look at all the horrific beats I take playing for 4 hours it just isn't right. I do not think the sites are screwing only me, but everyone. If you read my site you will see this.

mikern12 on March 7, 2010

Found a great post on twoplustwo from 'Lego05' that puts quite a hole in the 'rigging the cards for action' debate, here it is:



Rake is capped ... usually rake is like 5% with a max of like $3. Say we're playing with $100 stacks at a .5/$1 table. Each player puts in $30 so a pot of $60. 5% of $60 is $3 so $3 is the rake but that's it ... rake is now maxxed out. Each player has $70 left but if each player puts that $70 in the pot no new rake is collected on that $140 ... still just $3 rake.

So pot stays at $60 site collects $3 rake and game continues and more rake is collected ....... players go all-in for last $70 dollars and site collects $3 rake and one player loses all money and game is over and no more rake is collected.

If you were the site which would you prefer?




As you can see for poker sites to maximize their profits they need players to have money and keep playing. For them to maximize profits they want lots of medium sized pots and lots of split pots and would most likely rather err from medium sized pots toward smaller pots rather than larger pots so players don't get wiped out and the games can keep going and they can keep collecting.

Yet for some reason nearly every single rigged theory has the idea that sites give setup hands or cause huge beats or something with the goal toward inflating the size of the pot. In reality making the pots bigger is not what the sites want to do ... it is near the opposite of what they want to do.


If I decided to rig a poker site to increase rake at that site I would rig it to create as many medium sized pots as I could (TPWK hands vs. TPGK or some second pairs) and I would err toward smaller pots ..... I would also rig for a lot of split pots as that is pure gold ..... the site collects all the rake and each player gets their money back (minus the rake of course) and they keep playing with basically the same amount they had before.

buck22 on March 7, 2010

took a couple months off and came back a couple weeks ago playing small sit n gos and finished in the money 9/14 times finishing 1st 5 times and 2nd 3 times 3rd 1 time. I was playing well and surprised that all my hands were holding up. i didnt have a bad beat in any of those games. full tilt was making me happy so i wouldnt withdraw all my money again. and then the bad beats started. have qq flop q33 guy shoves with ak comes k k runner. my AA is all in vs 33 and AJc on flop 3 comes then AJ makes flush and im out of a tournament. open shoves of j10 hit 2 pair to beat my kk it just keeps coming. the donkey plays are rewarded because those players have to redeposit often because of their play but the site has to make them think they have a chance so it gives them some wins to keep them playing. sick

Cowman3340 on March 2, 2010

ye screw em, close my account and won't give me rakeback, trash the sites by all means

buck22 on March 1, 2010

buck22,

Im not gonna argue my point... your gonna believe what you want to believe and Im gonna believe what Im gonna believe based on my personal playing history on what i believe is a majorly rigged site..

but just a few things in my observations.. the up and down swings aren't natural on the Full Rigged site... Its amazing that when i go play in Atlantic City for 2 or 3 days at the 5/10nl table i will very rarely see 2 or 3 big made hands at showdown where as on full rigged every other hand is a showdown with multiple made hands.

Also, why is that every single nl table i play at on full rigged there is constant action and limping on every single hand but when i am dealt AA or KK in 7th spot through the cut off everyone constantly folds and there is never any action.... ever.....

tournament play on full rigged is even more comical... Small stacks never have a chance... continually sucked out by the bigger stacks...

oh forget it, im so tired of all the bs I see on full rigged.. obviously if you are doing good on that site than by all means continue playing but I for one can finally say I am done with Full Rigged and its cousin Joker Stars forever....

billytk01 on February 28, 2010

But...that's poker isn't it? Luck affected swings and streaks, up and down, but if you play well it balances out in your favour. If you kept winning when ur meant to, winrates would be 120BB/100+ but it's not the case, a good winrate is 6BB/100.

Don't you see the very fact that you ran $60-$440 and then it brought you back in line means it ISN'T rigged, you're not meant to win $420 in a few hours, the odds averaged out, thats all. You'd be damn good to be getting $5/hour at nl50 rush poker.

Im not sticking up for Fulltilt, just sharing my experience of odds, streaks and how to understand them, sick f***ing game but the best in the world.

buck22 on February 28, 2010

I was playing some rush poker on full tilt... deposited $60 and ran it up $440 playing conservative, making big lay downs etc... then like a light switch my luck ,ahem.. I mean rng, changed in a heart beat.. I lost set after set to straights, flushes and higher sets... lost 2 prs to river sets and straights.. the funny thing is that all the people and hands I was losing to were usually always on all ins, and im not talking pre-flop shoves.... it got so sickening that i logged off of full tilt when i was dealt kk, thats right I didnt even play the hand, I just closed out full tilt while i still had kk... and you might ask why I did that???? well lets just say that I was zero for about 9 with kk, losing huge pots on river... sickening just sickening.... its so obvious that the cash ring games are so obviously rigged with the programmed downswings... fucking hilarious....

billytk01 on February 28, 2010

Cake and Cereus

buck22 on February 26, 2010

okay nevermind, played a game this morning and flopped an ace high flush... try to string teh guy along a little bit... but two nines hit the board (look at my last post, 9s are the apparent hot cards right now).... I know I'm in trouble, but have to keep playing.

Well turns out guy had pocket 3s and hit his two outer on the river. Gotta love this site. How anyone can defend it, who isn't a paid schill, hasn't played on the site for more then a month.

jaywepp on February 26, 2010

Well heck, i got the full tilt LUCK today! I haven't played in about six months as it got too ridiculous.

Well today, was bored and figured what the heck... And yes, I did recall that after layoffs in the past that you do tend to win, so figured maybe i'd be on the good side for once.

Sure enough, played a 20 dollar sit and go and took it down. This included me getting more big slicks then i can recall and an early quad 9s that, hit on the flop at that, to set me up against a full house!

Glad to see a new site up that basically points out the rig'd action.... I might do one more before i cash out and it takes all my money =)

jaywepp on February 25, 2010

Cheers VA, your support helped throught that rough patch. Cereus seems great for MTT's as it's got more fish than PS & FT, blinds increase 12mins instead of standard 10, and blinds start at 5/10 adding an extra level, seems the most skilled based tournys.
Would appreciate it if I could refer you through the rakeback site i use and you get free membership to an awesome training site that helped my HU game no end. Private message me if ur interested.

To fit the thread ill end with ' Fulltilt isn't rigged'

buck22 on February 24, 2010

I had a pretty sick 2 month downswing at NL100 on Cake, so I've been playing tournaments on PokerStars, doing pretty well. The only cash I'm playing there is the 8 game format. I love that b/c I started in mixed games. I've taken a couple shots at some of the $100 Mtt's that Cake has, but haven't done well in any so far. Good luck, maybe we'll run into each other on Cake sometime.

ps- I'm glad to hear you made it to the other side of your horrible run without switching over to the rigged side lol

VA Poker on February 24, 2010

HU cash, should be hittin nl100 in few weeks hopefully, you running good?

buck22 on February 20, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
I can't prove Fulltilt ISNT rigged and you can't prove it IS! So why the f*** have you created a site to support UIEGA that would quash American's freedom of choice to play poker online? Not that anyone but a fool would swallow that cretinous drivel you call a site.

Frankly, screw Fulltilt and Stars because one won't give me rakeback and the other closed my account for BS reasons but don't vent your anger at the online poker community's rights when it's these 2 sites that you're angry with.

Reluctantly, I have to defend stars cos I turned $10-$10k there last year which wasn't a heater (had $6k downswing in middle) when only 2 years before I was on these threads swearing they were rigged. Ultimately it was my lack of knowledge at the high rake and IT WAS MY GAME THAT WAS THE PROBLEM!

Now playing Ultimate bet and RedStarPoker(cake) and they freakin rule, same deals and cards as the other sites but with rakeback making all the difference.

Buck, I wouldn't get upset about this guys site. Its actually pretty hilarious. This loser actually created a website to chronicle his daily failures. He posts his losing results then proceeds to cry about how its all rigged.

I obv dont think these sites are rigging anything, but at least some people who think its rigged have rational theories about how and why. This guy is one of those who literally thinks it is rigged against him. He's not just saying FTP is setting things up for action hands, he's saying they are setting up hands only against him, never in his favor. He doesn't give a single example where he is the beneficiary of these "action" hands.

Then he says he wanted to try UB out to see if it passed his test of being legit. He said he played there a day and the verdict was in....RIGGED.

This guy is a joke


btw I play on Cake too, what games are you into these days Buck?

VA Poker on February 20, 2010

I find, and I know everyone else has seen way too many situations where someone who has pocket queens or pocket kings gets beat by a higher pocket pair. Especially near the end of the tournement. I know poker is random but the frequency is way to high and if you look at the at the theoretical odds of this happening and comapre them to the frequency of it actually happening you will see the something is up. I know for a fact that this is one thing everyone has seen and I dont believe anyone who says its not true.

sidney on February 19, 2010

I can't prove Fulltilt ISNT rigged and you can't prove it IS! So why the f*** have you created a site to support UIEGA that would quash American's freedom of choice to play poker online? Not that anyone but a fool would swallow that cretinous drivel you call a site.

Frankly, screw Fulltilt and Stars because one won't give me rakeback and the other closed my account for BS reasons but don't vent your anger at the online poker community's rights when it's these 2 sites that you're angry with.

Reluctantly, I have to defend stars cos I turned $10-$10k there last year which wasn't a heater (had $6k downswing in middle) when only 2 years before I was on these threads swearing they were rigged. Ultimately it was my lack of knowledge at the high rake and IT WAS MY GAME THAT WAS THE PROBLEM!

Now playing Ultimate bet and RedStarPoker(cake) and they freakin rule, same deals and cards as the other sites but with rakeback making all the difference.

buck22 on February 8, 2010

I have played on this site for the past 3 years and this site is definitely rigged for action and to boost the rake. I have developed my own website just to notify people of the scams that these sites are perpertrating against american citizens and how to fight back. Lets get revenge on these mutha fu******. Goto www.fulltiltisrigged.com and get the whole scoop.

mikern12 on February 8, 2010

Anyone who has ever played a lot of casino poker knows that what you are saying is correct, Clusterfly.

I have never seen such a non-random site as FTP. I play now at Titan and it's fair, so far as I can see. When you go all in, and you have the best of it, you get rewarded the correct amount of the time. FTP is SO rigged I can predict the outcome of hands (see earlier posts)

There has been talk elsewhere that some of the 'players' are bot accounts, who will suck out on people and extract money from their accounts to the benefit of the site owners. No evidence of that, but there is something seriously fishy with the software. Random dealing? Absolutely not in my experience.

Cransley69 on January 16, 2010

I'm not normally one to point fingers, but in this case my hands are starting to cramp. I've played a lot of cards, tournaments and home games. Vegas and AC. Never have I seen the number of suck outs and bad beats as when playing on Fulltilt. Do I believe its rigged? Absolutely!

Latest example: $42 heads up turbo, 300 chips. After about 10 hands back and forth I finally get a call. My A8 to his A2. Anybody who's ever faced A2 knows what's coming. Duece on the flop. No problem. It happens. I had him covered. 5 hands later, my JJ to his KQ. I hit my set and think I'm home free. Only problem is a 9 came out on the flop as well. You guessed it...river 10. Still, it happens.

I claw my way back from the brink. only takes a couple of blinds when playing 300 chips. I have him again. A10 to A9. only problem is, his A is a spade. 4 spades come out. Another loss, but I had him covered. This time I hurting pretty bad. I manage a couple of blinds and beat him with a pair of QQ.

Now this is where I have a problem. 2 hands later I get dealt AA. What luck to get 2 high pairs that close together. I push all in, he's got me covered, hoping that he's got high cards. I get a call. Great. He turns over 5 7 offsuit. Absolutely no reason for him to call that hand. He was playing decent hands till then, and only had me 325 to 275 in chips. Not like he had me 10 to 1. Flop comes out 9 4 8. I knew what was coming. 6 on the turn.

Now you tell me 4 times in 30-35 hands I had him all in with the best hand. Then I get a ridiculous call and he pulls a miracle straight on a hand he never should've called with a cards that stink more that a 5 day old tuna sandwich when there was no need to go all in with that chip count.

You tell me someone's not controlling that and I say you are full of crap. I've taken some bad beats in my time, but that's the equivalent of kicking you while your down and then seeing the bastard feel up your wife right before driving off in your car and running over your dog in the process.

buck22 can say what he wants, it's friggin' rigged. Throw you money down a wishing well, you'll probably get a better result.

clusterfly23 on January 14, 2010

So I recently came back to full tilt after taking a 4 month break from full tilt.... I wanted to clear my head and calm my frustrations from the continuous horrid beats on full tilt...

So about 2 weeks ago I came back to full tilt with a clear head, open mind and I made a deposit. I started small playing some 90player sng/ $26 buy in... I played about 10 sng in which I placed first twice, placed 2 once, placed 5th and 9th.. I built an initial $100 deposit to over 2k in just 3 days.... I played extremely tight and smart... I thought wow, im playing good, clear headed, making great decisions and laydowns.. My strong pckt pairs were holding up... I was thinking maybe in the past I was reading too much into the bad beats that I had taken and maybe it was some bad plays on my part... I now had a decent bank roll to play some bigger tourneys on full tilt such as the Sunday 750k and Sunday $240 KO tourney, I was ready to repeat my huge 2008 year that I had on full tilt.. but .......... full tilt started to do what full tilt does best... bad beats, suckouts, 1-2 outers, you name it and it happened...

I played the Sunday KO (240 buy in) and I was quickly knocked out when my KK lost to a A3o all in push by the small blind when I was in BB... I thought ok.. first peculiar bad beat.. it happens... lets move on...

Now I enter the Sunday 750k.... I dont play a hand at all in the first hour, and I finally wake up with AcAs UTG.. I make a 4 x bb bet (cuz I know from past play on full tilt that you can not slow play AA or KK, I rather win a small pot then lose a big) everyone folds except the cut off who happens to be the chip leader at the table (and he has me outchipped at more than 3 to 1) so the flop comes 2c,3c,4c.. I bet pot and chip leader calls, turn is 9h, I push all in and immediatley called, river 5h... chip leader tables 46d for the straight to 6... unreal, another suck out loss to a player with more chips...

Like a dumbass, I play some more SNG's and like clock work all my premium pocket prs are cracked by bigger stacks, and ridiculous suckouts continue to pile on.... especially when i am short stacked late in MTT's or sng's.... when i get short stacked and its late in the tourneys I might as well just quit cuz no matter what I play I always get sucked out or counterfetied.. its like clock work and predictable...

so anyway cashed out $400 of the 2k plus bankroll i built up and I am done forever on these rigged sites...

I will wait until the USA legalizes and monitors the sites here in the states...

billytk01 on January 13, 2010

The world also appears to be flat, but you gotta ask why the ship disappears at the horizon. You're human, and looks can be decieving, you have to rely on intelligence to come up with the most probable answer to your problem, which isn't a rigged RNG.

A more logical answer as to why it always seems to be big hands vs. bigger hands is because players on online are utilising more patience than the piss-head pub player trying to survive 5 minute blinds on 30 hands an hour. Most players wait for atleast 2pair before showing a hand down, and fold the rest, giving the illusion that only 2pair+ hands are being dealt. And this goes double for the major American sites who are renowned for being the toughest games to crack.

On a personal level Cablekarter, you are transitioning from play money and freeroll games to real money to which very few people profit at first. There's a good chance you are either being out-played or you don't have a big enough edge to grind a profit there yet. My advice to you is to take your tight approach to the game and play the small stake SNG's on pokerstars (much as I hate to recommend this site) as the rake is less, the players are looser and more impatient. You'll see plenty of pair showdwons there. Stick with them till you can beat them up without a sweat then move up. Cash games on all the American sites are tight as hell and would leave them till you got a bit more experience in the game.

This isn't meant to be condescending but a key skill that you have to have to become a winning player is to know which games you can beat, and which players have an edge on you. Good luck and keep tweaking your game.

buck22 on December 12, 2009

I've been playing on UB for a couple of years now. Playing free rolls taught me a lot about patience and the game of poker. After finally winning money I built up a pretty good bankroll. After cashing out, I was never able to win again, even after putting in more and more money. My game was as tight if not better than before, but yet I couldn't get ahead.
Decided to check out Fullt Tilt and Poker Stars. All I can say is that these two sites are just ridiculous. All I had to do was spend a day playing the free money games and freerolls. The winning hands- Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight, Flush, Trips, Quads, Two Pair. Hardly EVER did I see anybody ever win with just one pair, let alone high card. Don't believe me? Don't play- got to the tables and watch. I watched four tables at once on Full Tilt then later Pokerstars. The flops were insane- possible flush, straight, or full boat on every one. I'm not bitter for losing money on these sites- I never put money into these two. I just used my eyes and my brain. Poker is just simply NOT what you're playing on these sites. Yes, I have my doubts about UB these days- but their bad beats are nothing compared to the bad beats I see on FT and PS. Sure, AA can get cracked by a donk calling with 8 4 off and hitting two pair. But man, I see KK with a flop of KQA get busted by staights and flushes ALL THE TIME on FT and PS. It's some hyper charged extreme poker world that people who don't know any better think is like the real thing. So many pots that have several people in them with KILLER hands (that I would love to have in a real game) but there's one winning hand that's just over the top. C'mon, you can't be both stupid and blind, can you? Hands like QQQ are the LOW hands with a straight on top of that and on top is the winning flush? I'm sure that you could prolly win money on these sites if you could figure out WHICH NUTS are the real nuts. But don't think that you're playing real poker. No way, no how. I don't care what anybody posts on here defending those sites. They may not be crooked in the sense that they favor a certain individual over another- but the hands they deal are DEFINATELY meant to suck you into playing them. Seriously, forget bull arguments about how people will eventually lose their money because of blah blah whatever. That's not the point. The point is the crazy hands that are consistantly dealt on ever table. Just open up like three or four tables and once and watch the crazy hands that win. Flush, straight, two pair, straight, straight, straight, three of a kind. Did I just make that up? NO, while I was typing this I had PS loaded and was watching ONE table. Those are the hands that won. At this piont, it's no longer about the probability of your pocket A's being cracked- it's about the probability of the hands they deal being dealt in the first place. As in- there is NO card room in the world that would consistantly deal hands like this. I hope this answers the question a certain individual in this thread keeps asking about PROOF. The proof is your OWN EYES. Don't play, just watch. That's is all the proof anybody who knows anyting about poker should need.

Cable Karter on December 12, 2009

There is something wrong, poker is a sick game that'll bad beat and cold deck your ass until you donk off the rest of your chips, that's how it gets ya. I've played alot of live and all the same beats happen, jus over a longer period of time.

A couple of years ago I had read all the books and was beating the low limits at pacific poker. I moved to pokerstars and fulltilt and was dumping money like no-ones business. Thats the reason I found this site, cos I was 100% it was rigged. 2 years later and Ive made money on all these sites and I wasted alot of time in between complaining it was rigged instead of addressing the real problems , my game and the rake.

What odds, I think I know why you lost at full tilt. I played a couple of weeks playing 8 tables of NL25 at Ultimate bet(same rake as FT), and after 20k hands I was down $233. Now Im a winning player at .5/1 games and couldnt believe Id lost over 20k hands of .1/.25. I was running pretty bad but the problem was the $549.47 that was raked over these hands. The rake at these low stakes is 11.21 big blinds/100hands, the reason we both lost was probably because playing 8 tables simultaneously whilst grinding a profit of atleast 11BB/100 is near impossible.

As a tip, getting a software that compiles your hands really does help you find what's going wrong with your game, whether it's high rakes or bad beats. Good luck all

buck22 on December 7, 2009

I have been playing on FullTilt for a long time and I believe there is something wrong. The amount of bad beats that I have faced is incredible. I mostly play tournaments. Whenever I have taken out money from the site and the next time deposit some, I will 100% loose all.

Initially I used to not believe that the online poker could be ragged but I have seen bad beats which will never happen in real game.

A simple example I had JJ from Mid Position I raised there was a caller with A7 offsuite he calls. Flop is J,9,A I check he bets I put him all in. The next card is a 9 and then an A. This is only exaple.

I had KK I raised on the button and there was a caller with A5 offsuite. Flop is K,9,9. I check and the guys goes all in the next two runner cards are 9,s so he hit quads with A.

It's like I know when I will be getting the bad beat. It is always in tournaments the person with the lesser number of chips and the best hand will loose to a donkey call.

I am not sure I could be wrong but I have faced so many bad beats that I have to quit. It is better to got to AC and play real game then playing online

PokerLover on December 6, 2009

Buck22 has this set as his home page. Every time someone posts anything negative about FTP he's right there with a counter response. Have you signed up foir emails when there is a post on this page too?

FTP = NOT RANDOM software

no1swimmer on December 1, 2009

traffic of 300 lol those were the days

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomo4life View Post
Full Tilt is a great poker engine. It is nice to have the avatars and being able to change the avatar's emotions is a nice little additive in the program along with changing the background. One particular thing that is great on Full Tilt is the ability to rotate your seat at the table. Only downfall right now of the site is the lack of traffic in the mornings (currently there is 300 players online) which makes it difficult to find a game or fill a sit and go tournament. Pros play more often than you believe. Log on at night time and you are bound to see atleast one table occupied by a professional. The cards are fair and the play is very good. Beginners beware because most the players you encounter know what they are doing. Pros on the site that I've seen play or have played with include Andy Bloch, Phil Ivey, Clonie Gowen, Phil Gordon, Howard Lederer, Chris "Jesus" Ferguson, Rafe Furst, and John Juanda. They play at all different stakes, but typically about the $2/$4 range or higher. Hope this helps all of you and convinces you guys to download FTP.

MySetofBallsbeatsyourJackAce on November 26, 2009

I've been friends with Mike Matusow,and his brother, Scott, (who does not play poker at all, but is disc Jockey, he does podcasts)for a few years now, since 2006. And Mike did confirm to me in private that Full Tilt Poker is, in fact, rigged. They want the tournaments to end as fast as they can, so the people that lose can enter another tournament and thus, give more money to the site. I asked him this once when we were playing at home over a beer, and he was very cocky about all of this. He asked me,"Have you ever had any bad beats there?(FTP)" and I said,"Yeah. Tons of times." He laughed maniacally and then explained the method, which is too long for me to explain here, regarding the way people are destroyed with staff who can see everyone's cards. On top of that, the deal is not random, but rather, controlled by a human, not a cpu, and that is why you will see 3 or 4 people get knocked out by a guy who goes all in with an 8/3 offsuit or something ridiculous like that.

thebrutaltruth on November 26, 2009

What was the inquiry that you made that got you banned???????

eldave1 on November 15, 2009

I post because certain posts on here serve no purpose other than creating paranioa in the online poker community you ignorant shmuck. You'd know this if you even bothered to read my last few posts.

There's a big difference between venting tilt on screwed up bad beats and lying about proving online is rigged. Ones opinion the other slander.

One of the beauties of poker is it chews chumps like you up and spits you out. On behalf of the poker community, thankyou :)

buck22 on November 15, 2009

Quote:
You're right, this is pointless, you dumbasses just bury your head in the sand and call me an affiliate every time
Buck, the reason why you're getting called a shill/ affiliate is that ppl are giving you the benefit of the doubt of not being a complete and utter flake. smack77 wasn't directing his comments at anyone initially; just posting his opinion about FTP on a site built just for that-- personal opinions. Yet for no reason anyone can gather, you just started personally attacking him as if he was insulting your religion-- just as you did with *whatodds* and a few others here. Quite bizarre behavior, considering that now that your chief rival is gone (whatodds), there's no reason for you to hang around here anymore.

So of course smack77 would call you an affiliate. Because someone who would get this angry, this belligerent defending a company he supposedly doesn't work for and has no financial or personal stake in would be a flake otherwise, a person with severe mental and emotional issues. Especially if he's still choosing to hang around long after his rival's left. Rather than call you out for a flake, smack77 decided that you're probably rational after all, but just a shill for FTP.

Not me, though. I personally think you're a flake. But that's just me, though, lol...

FTPisAJoke on November 15, 2009

No, I shove quads because I play bad players. You're right, this is pointless, you dumbasses just bury your head in the sand and call me an affiliate every time, when all im doing is stopping easily lead players from misdirecting their attention on fictional conspiracy stories and instead, improve their games. How many Fulltilt affiliates recommend pokerstars hmmmm? Think Mcfly, Think!

Every arguement on here falls flat on its face every time. Including yours, 'Everything I say can be confirmed.....apart fromt he fact the pro i just made up won't admit to it' lol. Ye, Im bedding Jennifer Aniston but don't ask her cos she'll just denie it.

All you can prove is you lost money at a gambling site, guess what, thats meant to happen.

buck22 on November 15, 2009

If you shove a quads all the time, your a terrible player.

Anyway. Why would someone continually visit dead threads with the sole purpose of defending full tilt? Obviously that person has an agenda.

Very easy to see that Buck22 is affliated with Full Tilt. ;)


Everything I posted is easy confirm except the pro I chated with who has a connection to FT. Even then, what I said about grinders is easy to confirm as well (per said pro). But it will be hard to get anyone to admit about software tweaking. They will say instead...."to stay away from online sites except for to improve your game ;)."

smack77 on November 14, 2009

When I got 4 of a kind, I shove all in cos im 99% sure it's a winner. Im 99% sure that you're full of piss and wind aptly named smack77. Haven't heard the 'ive got a mate, thats got a mate, that knows....' story since i was in primary school. What I don't know is what kind of thrill you get out of instilling paranoia into the poker community?

The very nature of gambling is streaks, you get great ones, and then you get some f***ing horrible ones.

I'd like to renounce my recommendation of pokerstars. They closed my account mid-gaming for making a simple enquiry. Not gonna go into it, but they are complete f***ers and the speed they closed my account and for the fictional reasons they had to do so, I can only recomend leaving this site well alone. However this rigged nonsense has got to stop!

Improve your game, control your emotions, work on your game constantly and I promise you , every year you'll look back on the last and say 'f*** me ive plugged some leaks' Good luck all

buck22 on November 14, 2009

I have a couple friends that frequent the WSOP tour. I forwarded them my stats about FT. They are friends with a few well known pros. Anyway.. One of my friends forwarded on my stats to certain poker pro and this person has contacted me directly.

Stated that they target grinders to do the dirty work and build up bankroll. Then they use "software tweaks" to take 50-75% of it...PC way of saying they cheat.... Then leave them alone for a while longer till they build up their bankroll again and do the same thing over and over again.

PS.... He also told me that pokerstars is filled with Poker bots and that PS is aware of it. I asked him if PS has house bots... He didn't know but stated but that it was a definite possibility. He didn't care that PS is basically allowing bots to play, but he wasn't happy that PS wont label these accounts as bots.

smack77 on November 14, 2009

Run by people who make a living conning people out of their hard earned money and using it as a tax shelter.

People expect the software to be 100% fair. Idiots.

The data IS out there if you look. The best hand PF does not win nearly as much as it should. Certain middle hands have much higher winning %'s by the river.

Anyway. I've played nearly 500k hands+. Made money, but not that much. Everytime I'd start building up there would be a massive cold streak where all my made hands would not hold up by the river.

This stat says it all. In my career @ FT I hit 1827 full houses. Which is actually 2.5 times lower then it should have been. Of those full houses made I won only 77% of the time!!!!!!!!!! A far cry from the 98%. My full houses lost 11x as often as they should have. Other strong hands I lost more often as well. Other statistics are not quite as ridiculous but very close.

Why? Full tilt doesn't want people to win money. If you do, they start coolering you to death. Give you unfoldable hands like a straight on the flop, flush, or top set, or even a full house which are either already beat or in the case of straights...will hit runner runner full houses or flushes by the river. or the 2 pair 4 outer hits by the river.

So why does full tilt handicap? So bad players who are incapable of winning will have some success. Why is that important? So all these bad players think they are decent or good and think they can win their money back. So...they redeposit, and keep redepositing..... probably hoping they become addicted.... The same thing holds true with solid or good players. Since when they win they take money out of the site, Full Tilt sees that as LOST money. Which is not in their interest. So they handicap these good players such that they barely win or remain close to even. So basically the money stays in their system much longer and they get to widdle away at it through the BS rake.


There are only 2 ways to defeat this BS. #1 regulation from Europe and / or USA. #2 eliminate rake all together. Rake is important for Brick and mortar for expenses but is completely BS for online. Instead....Players can pay a monthly fee to play @ their site.

smack77 on November 14, 2009

SUBTITLES:

I lost money on Fulltilt, can't blame myself or variance so a pig-headed unwillingness to even consider the facts has lead me to believe it's 100% rigged.

buck22 on October 31, 2009

Without a doubt Full Tilt is not random. Can't be bothered to post why I think that, but just wanted to add my opinion.

no1swimmer on October 31, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
Nah, we're on the same subject, but have different opinions on DECENT sample. According to your filter and the odds you've given for the situation to occur, the chances are:

5%(PP) x 24%(opponant s) x 11%(opp hit fl/drw) x 11%(you hit) = 1/5120

So in your 50k sample, you've only had this situation about 9 or 10 times. You have to agree with me that 10 coinflips is not on the same planet as a decent sample of trials. Event though your winrate should be near accurate, analyising certatin filters will still be premature.

Regarding the comment that when you flop a monster and a flush card comes, they have it 100% seems to unfortunately point to your opponants playing very well ie they are folding to your strong flop raises unless they have a strong draw that will bust you if it hits. There's a reason they stayed in the pot with a slightly cripled flop and a flush draw board, they have to have you matched, beat, or implied odds to crack your hand, AND THEY KNOW THIS. Cash game players on todays toughest sites are like freaking robots, and from personal experience they always fekin have it. The pain in the arse is that playing this tight and nitty is probably near optimal play for a game with such big stacks and no blind increase. If you go to ipoker, you can flease those f***ers all day by crackin there PP's and TP's with simple turn and river manuevers, they always stick their head out! How do you thrash an opponant that only sticks his head out with the best hand, by painfully slow stealing/bluffing equity. There is no doubt that fekers as low as 12c/25c play tight, solid poker on Fulltilt and pokerstars.

Bare with me on this point, you have a flopped monster and 2 flush cards are out. When you opponant has a draw and misses he'll fold, so you won't know what he had, however when he hits, you sure as hell know what he has when he shows you the best hand and takes down the pot. So to you, it makes perfect sense that it SEEMS like their flush gets there 100%, because in reality he folded the missed draw 80%. This is patient play from your opponants and it's hard to get equity even off trips in this situation , unless you can make the oober folds. This is why I gave up on cash games because the equity is so small when at these stakes on SNG's, they'll pay you off with middle pair on the river, so much better.
...

what odds on October 26, 2009

Nah, we're on the same subject, but have different opinions on DECENT sample. According to your filter and the odds you've given for the situation to occur, the chances are:

5%(PP) x 24%(opponant s) x 11%(opp hit fl/drw) x 11%(you hit) = 1/5120

So in your 50k sample, you've only had this situation about 9 or 10 times. You have to agree with me that 10 coinflips is not on the same planet as a decent sample of trials. Event though your winrate should be near accurate, analyising certatin filters will still be premature.

Regarding the comment that when you flop a monster and a flush card comes, they have it 100% seems to unfortunately point to your opponants playing very well ie they are folding to your strong flop raises unless they have a strong draw that will bust you if it hits. There's a reason they stayed in the pot with a slightly cripled flop and a flush draw board, they have to have you matched, beat, or implied odds to crack your hand, AND THEY KNOW THIS. Cash game players on todays toughest sites are like freaking robots, and from personal experience they always fekin have it. The pain in the arse is that playing this tight and nitty is probably near optimal play for a game with such big stacks and no blind increase. If you go to ipoker, you can flease those f***ers all day by crackin there PP's and TP's with simple turn and river manuevers, they always stick their head out! How do you thrash an opponant that only sticks his head out with the best hand, by painfully slow stealing/bluffing equity. There is no doubt that fekers as low as 12c/25c play tight, solid poker on Fulltilt and pokerstars.

Bare with me on this point, you have a flopped monster and 2 flush cards are out. When you opponant has a draw and misses he'll fold, so you won't know what he had, however when he hits, you sure as hell know what he has when he shows you the best hand and takes down the pot. So to you, it makes perfect sense that it SEEMS like their flush gets there 100%, because in reality he folded the missed draw 80%. This is patient play from your opponants and it's hard to get equity even off trips in this situation , unless you can make the oober folds. This is why I gave up on cash games because the equity is so small when at these stakes on SNG's, they'll pay you off with middle pair on the river, so much better.

buck22 on October 26, 2009

...

what odds on October 26, 2009

Whatodds I think you've missed my point about how 100k hands (which is now 50k, sure it was 100k before) will pretty reliably reflect your WINRATE, not the EV of each of the hundreds of different situations ie flush draw, Im sure you have your maths wrong with this.

Each hand you play has its own expected value, 100k of these should balance these values out. But out of these hands how many are flush draw situations? Alot fewer! For this situation to occur you need:
a)To be in hand - 25% (estimates)
b)Flop & opponants hand must contain total of 4 flush cards- 16%
c)To flop a commited hand - 13%
d)opponant & you all in on flop - 90%

So it will occur once in 237ish hands, 50k/237= 210
So you've seen around 210 opponants flush draws in this sample, now being out atleast 70/30 is unlikely over 210 trials but not out of the realms of possiblity and definately not 'billions to 1'.

Whatever you think of any site, you've got to make sure you've got your maths and expectation right. Ive hit 50k hands in the last 3weeks and my EV is about $500 below winnings, I friken deserve it after last 4 months, but it goes to show 50k hands really isnt enough cos ive just managed to run like sh*t for 50k, then run well for 50k

buck22 on October 25, 2009

have 14,000 in a tournament avg 7000 blinds 120/240 raise 3x bb utg with AA and bb calls. pots like 1200 flop q 7 3 so i bet 480 other guy raises to 2000 so i push all in. he has q10 of course 10 comes on river down to 3000. next hand get k9 in bb couple limpers check flop comes 8 j q all check turn 10 giving me straight. guy bets 200 raise to 600 i go all in he calls with AQ river k to give him A high straight im out. wtf locked myself out for a day cause of this

Cowman3340 on October 25, 2009

...

what odds on October 24, 2009

Making outrageous claims without a shred of proof or a rational arguement? I never thought I'd see the day the internet sank so low!

Don't think this thread is dedicated to collecting concrete evidence on FTP's RNG, just a discussion on the crazy results a fraction of the Fulltilt community have experienced, and making sense of it all. I found this thread by googling 'Full tilt rigged', there's a reason we all found this thread because out of the billions of hands, and millions of players, a proportion of the crowd is going to run horrible for a length of time that seems mathmatically near impossible.

If there was a site doing coin flips with millions playing eachother, odds state that a small proportion will lose an unimaginable amount in a row, their would undoubtably be rigged conspiracy theories amoung these unlucky few claiming their bad luck was 100000/1 for the sample they took. Seeing as this would 100% definately apply to the poker world, don't you think this is a rational explanation for how Whatodds can have 100k hands of poor results even though from his perspective this seems impossible, out of millions of players, someones got to have outrageous bad luck over 100k+ hands, and he ended up posting it on here. But, if Whatodds truly is a winning player and their was concrete proof of this, another 100k hands would show this, because from our perpective he wouldn't be one out of millions who hit an unlucky streak, he would be one trial playing 100k hands and the chances of winrate being off after this amount of hands is so small, we'd have a damn good idea if the RNG was coshure.

Unfortunately we won't ever be 100% that Whatodds is a favourite and other variables so this is all hyperthetical, but to me this theoretical explains how 100k hands can be a good enough sample but at the same time be misleading as threads like this only focus in on the 100k samples out of billions that hit an unlucky downswing.

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality"
Albert Einstein

buck22 on October 24, 2009

...

what odds on October 23, 2009

First of all, I know you aren't stupid enough to think a roulette ball or coin has a memory. It was a joke to make my point.

Ok, so let me get this straight. If a player has normal stats over 100k hands you are saying its proof that a site isn't rigged? Do you really not think one person has normal stats on FTP over 100k hands? By your own logic, that player would have proof that FTP isn't rigged. However, you claim that your sample is proof that it is rigged. So, using your own logic, two people can prove completely opposite things? If one single person came forward with a 100k sample on FTP that was normal would you recant your entire argument? Based on your logic, you would have to. If there sample says one thing and yours says another, who is right? Who has the real proof?

This thread has digressed into bickering about semantics between you and me. I freely admit that when I dismissed the rigged theory I was doing so without anywhere close to enough information. All I can factually say is that, based on my personal experience on many sites, I don't think any of them are rigged. For me to state its not rigged as a fact would be totally presumptuous. I'm not even trying to say I'm right. I'm just saying you don't have PROOF. I will concede the roulette thing to you, even though it doesn't sound right to me, because you probably know better than I do. But I do know about proof, and the fact is that NO ONE, except FTP themselves, has enough info to claim any sort of proof. If they did, someone would have taken it up legally by now. The only lawsuit I've heard about against FTP, involving cheating, is that they use bots and that claim was made by a player who had his account frozen for using bots.

I just think cheating is a very serious allegation that should be made carefully. When I started playing poker in the early 90's I played in underground rooms and, more often then not, we had no dealer. If I thought 2 guys at the table were colluding, I'd get up and never sit down with them again. I wouldn't accuse them of cheating because I didn't have proof. I would later tell fellow players what I THOUGHT was going on, not what I KNEW what was going on.You guys who think online poker is rigged seem to have no problem throwing any accusation around. You say guys like me and buck, who think its legit, are working for FTP. I'm pretty sure you personally have made that allegation against us but I apologize if I'm mistaken. There's probably been about 20 people who have ever read this thread, its basically you me and buck talking to each other, do you really think FTP is paying people to write here?

VA Poker on October 23, 2009

...

what odds on October 23, 2009

LOL It's funny that you refuse to answer my questions considering the answers are fundamental to your entire argument. You responded to my posts over and over again criticizing me, but you refuse to extremely simple questions I have posed to you. It figures that a guy trying to prove something that is so far beyond provable given his information would want to quit talking about the subject.


BTW, I don't know if they taught you this in physics or not but A COIN DOES NOT HAVE A MEMORY. You must be one of those idiots who hangs around the roulette tables waiting for a table to hit black like 10x in a row so you can go bet on red because you think the previous 10 spins have a correlation with the next one. A coin has no memory. It is within the realm of possibility that a coin could hit heads 200x in a row. You might have to flip it a trillion times before you get that result, but it is certainly a possibility. Just like it is a possibility that some people can get drawn out on more frequently than others. I know I know, its just not fair.

VA Poker on October 23, 2009

...

what odds on October 23, 2009

whatodds,


First of all, all the things you call "my arguments" are very basic and simple logic. Secondly, there is no guarantee that if you flip a coin 200x it will come up heads 80-120 times. Even if what you said was right, that has nothing to do with hold'em odds because everything except a 50/50 preflop race is so much more complicated than flipping a coin.

You've completely missed the point of everything I've said. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm just saying you don't have enough evidence to claim proof. I do have a law degree so I know a little something about proof. I'm just saying, all you have is evidence that YOUR stats don't add up on FTP. Yet, you claim the ENTIRE RNG is rigged. Your logic is completely faulty. If you think you are so right, go ahead, "bring it all to light". Sue FTP. I'd bet every penny I have that they would take everything you own. If you weren't just some random guy babbling on in a forum, they would have probably sued you for everything you have already. I will never post on this topic again, its clear you have no room for logic in your brain. You have a polarized view on this subject and you will not change. Why haven't you answered any of my questions?

Do you think everyone on FTP has the same stats as you?
Do you think it is possible some players on FTP have been drawn out on less frequently than they should have been?
Do you think everyone's stats on every site should be indentical?
If another player on FTP showed stats proving he was drawn out on less than he should have been, would you recant your whole argument?
If a player shows normal stats on 100k hands on any given site, is that PROOF that a site is legit?

I've asked you all these questions, you never answer. I'm particularly interested in the last one. I've played 75k hands on Pokerstars since I've started tracking. My stats show nothing weird. Do I now have PROOF pokerstars is legit? Of course I don't, but if i were to use your logic, or lack their of, I would.

VA Poker on October 23, 2009

...

what odds on October 20, 2009

interesting discussion. disclaimer: i';m not a statistician nor do i know anything and everything written below is voodoo

ftp claims compliance with NIST standard FIPS140-1 for random number generation. a search shows there's a set of statistical tests any rng needs to pass. FIPS140-2 is available as PDF and has verifications possible with 20k bits of RNG (its struck out of the standard - not sure why but still a good read as a starting point). So one could apply the bit tests to hands from stats sites perhaps but you would need to write up some proof of some transform from cards into bit patterns that was invariant w.r.t. the bit tests, although intuitively this seems not wholy unreasonable but again i'm not an expert. Then just 20k worth of bits could test an RNG (according to crossed out bits).

The "your hands are only a fraction of the total hands" argument gets at the notion of needing a large enough sample, but the total number of hands i believe is less relevant than the size of the sample compared to what the variance/properties youre testing for is. for example, all the RNG verification tests themselves are only a fraction of all the random bits ever generated by mankind, but we still consider the tests significant.

its interesting also that becuase hands can be recorded these sites are subject to potential auditing by sufficiently motivated or annoyed rogue statisticians - so they are at risk if they were they to rig something - partly from discovery and partly from people finding flaws in their systems and abusing it. Mind you to keep conspiracy theory alive, its seems plausible that at any stage they can maintain bit patterns that would pass verification, but still pick'n choose the next card that came out - for example consider the monobit test discussed in the standard - one could conspiracy theorize rigging something that could pick a more 'exciting' card that had the same number of 1's and 0's in its bit pattern: 1010, 1001, 0101 etc. which means you'd need statistics on longer runs or patterns which would mean more cards necessary. actually determining how many cards one needs to observe to make a conclusion would be a pretty interesting task in itself. Maybe thats why the tests are crossed out in the '02 version of the standard and why they use the dieharder standards which take their queue from what look like more sophisticated NIST rng verifications.

pokerplayerguy on October 20, 2009

Firstly, I think VA is spot on with his reasoning. To add to this, I wanted to point out that experts and mathmeticians belive that your WINRATE should balance after 100k hands, not necesarily PARTICULAR hands or draws, because out of the 100k sample, only a fraction will be flush draws for example. OVERALL you should get your winrate, but out of the hundreds of filters possible, it's ignorant to expect them ALL to be exactly where they should be.

I would like to reitterate a point that really struck me again last night. I was multitabling 8 SNG's at a time, and noticed how freakin bad most of the players were. Calling huge reraises with 78, calling allins with 10J, but seemingly every time they where hitting and stacking me. I spent all night swearing at my computer, questioning why bad plays where getting paid every time, christ knows how many AA & KK got cracked. Nightmare. Played 36 games in total, checked my bankroll, and im up $350. Bad players increase variance by putting ur luck to the test more, AND occasionally you make mistakes because they are harder to read than a logically minded player. Their absence of logic more than makes up for your occasional blunder but meanwhile if your running bad, it feels like rigged city.

Most of you know I play pokerstars, but it gets just as bad press in the rigged department as fulltilt, with exactly the same complaints. VA is right that no-one can have 100% proof whether these sites are rigged or not, but by sharing rational theories on the similarities of our experience, we get a bigger picture of the true nature of the beast, and this is the cure for tilt.

buck22 on October 19, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by what odds View Post
Do any of you use HEM?????

How many times do I have to point out all you have to do is filter for hands ALL IN ON THE FLOP WHEN YOU HELD 60-69% EQUITY AND THEN READ AN WEEP WHEN YOU SEE THAT STRAIGHT DRAWS AND FLUSH DRAWS ARE MADE OVER 60% OF THE TIME!!!!!

There is no debate, the stats are there for anyone using HEM...the site uses bots, players will check shove a flush draw and make hideously bad plays but these bots or house players or whatever they are will hit draws at 60%+ of the time.

I've ran similar filters for Pokerstars, Ladbrokes, Pacific,Everest, I-Poker Network and my hands in these situations all run to within 10% of expectation, which any statistician will say is within a reasonable range given my hand sample sizes.

Also, I filtered for raised PF, flopped two pair, trips or a set...now this filter was the jackpot evidence I personally needed because my win rate in these spots on all my other sites (6 sites all with 100,000+ samples) are +1,300bb/100 or more.

Now on FTP, that number drops to 650bb/100...so basically, that tells me, when I raise pre flop on FTP, say with 99, and the flop comes 927, I actually win half as much in comparison to 6 other sites...now anyone with any ounce of intelligence can see how significant that is because it has nothing to do with player skill- when you flop a set, it is hard to play it wrong- you just bet and keep betting if called.

So, I was intrigued as to how this happens on FTP and then when you look at the hand histories where money was lost in these spots, it just becomes so blatantly obvious the site is rigged for action.

Pretty much, when you flop a big hand on FTP, your opponent will flop a draw or have some crazy hand in store to beat you on a later street at a rate just way more than is possible through standard variance, it is set up people- so you c-bet KK on KQ8, opponent calls with J9, turn comes the Ten and there is just no way you are folding.

But almost everytime, you flop a set, opponent turns the flush, you flop two pair, opponent turns a set, it is actually laugh out loud material when you look at the hand histories because it confirms what I have always felt- that they put you with big hands on the flop only to have the opponent make a bigger hand way more often than they should on a later street- it means more big pots and the very logic of it means good solid play is punished because you flop a big hand and then get outdrawn whilst the bad players will call and hit and stack the good players more often- it works great for FTP because good players will raise pre flop and bet good hands, bad players will flop a gut shot and CALL and hit and= a lot of action hands.

I actually think anyone who plays FTP over a big sample and doesn't see the manipulation just really doesn't have any idea but randomness because it just doesn't happen like that in real life.

If I run the same filters for any of the other sites, I see hands where I raise TT, flop comes T75, opponent with Q5o calls the flop, turn = 5 and his trips get punished because he is playing a DOMINATED hand...those types of hands just don't happen on FTP, on FTP he'd hold 69o and the turn would come an 8 for the UNLIKELY to give credit for straight.

THE STATS ARE THERE FOR ANYONE WITH A BIG SAMPLE ON FTP AND THEY OWN HEM, USE MY FILTERS AND JUST LOOK AT THE BS THESE GUYS COME UP WITH...

I am not a guy with a lot of words but yeah Full Tilt is Bogus, if you are a good SNG player with any kind of poker instincts and have spent a lot of your online playing time at Full Tilt, 50 plus hours a week, then you know no matter how well you play you will get hacked by a lesser skilled player, the site plays that way and I accept it, I know I will not make money there on a consistant basis, maybe cash every now and then but thats ok, I play there because it is EZ, anytime, anywhere I can log in and have access to all the action I want, thats why I continue to play there. I don't lose more than I can afford so it's all good, though it would be nice to play at a site that does truely deal random cards, they would get my business.

greencaravan on October 19, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Logic???
You claim to have a significant sample. I would bet my life that your sample isn't even a 10,000th of a percent of FTP's total hands dealt. That means you have NO KNOWLEDGE of 99.9999% of the total hands on FTP. Do you really think its logical to claim to know something is rigged when you have no knowledge of 99.9999% of the total hands dealt there. Do you think there are no players on FTP that have been drawn out on LESS than they should have? You talk about logic and proof. All you can logically prove is that you have been drawn out on more than you should have been on FTP. Thats all you can prove. I'm not even saying you are wrong, I'm just saying you don't have sufficient evidence to make even an educated guess, much less to claim proof.

BTW there is a very very good reason no one has "brought this to light". If someone tried to take some sort of legal action against FTP, claiming to have proof its rigged, because they were drawn out on more than they should have been based on a hand sample of less than .00001% of FTP's total hands, that person would be counter sued and FTP would take everything they have. You can't legally claim to have proof of something when, in fact, you have no way of proving anything. If you are so sure you are right and your proof is logical, why don't you try bringing it to light?





Billy Tk,
I totally agree with your post. It sums up my position perfectly. That IS the problem. That is why I don't claim to know whether or not FTP is rigged and have stated that none of us do and all we can do is trust our info and instincts to decide whether or not its a good place for us to play. I've always opposed people who claim its rigged. Not because I know its not, but because I do know that they don't have enough info to make any sort of educated guess on the matter.

Not a guy with a lot of words but yeah Full Tilt is Bogus, if you are a good SNG player with any kind of poker instincts and have spent a lot of your online playing time at Full Tilt, 50 plus hours a week, then you know no matter how well you play you will get hacked by a lesser skilled player, the site plays that way and I accept it, I know I will not make money there on a consistant basis, maybe cash every now and then but thats ok, I play there because it is EZ, anytime, anywhere I can log in and have access to all the action I want, thats why I continue to play there. I don't lose more than I can afford so it's all good, though it would be nice to play at a site that does truely deal random cards, they would get my business.

greencaravan on October 19, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by what odds View Post
I'm sorry, stats are stats, doesn't matter if they are mine, yours, the Pope's, it doesn't matter.

I have a significant sample of hands that show a ridiculous increase in percentages of flushes and straights whenever the PFR flops two pair, trips or a set...that just so happen to coincide with a flush being made on the turn or river when PFR has flopped top set etc...it happens too much.

It is not coincidence, just no, I try for two seconds to conceede this and agree with you but I just cannot do it because logic SHOULD prevail.

All it takes is some logic and common sense.

Surely someone else here has HEM for FFS?

People are quick enough to defend this site but I am offering filters to prove it is rigged and no one has HEM or has the nounce to even run the filters and see it with their own eyes.

I can't believe no one has run these filters before and brought them to light.
Logic???
You claim to have a significant sample. I would bet my life that your sample isn't even a 10,000th of a percent of FTP's total hands dealt. That means you have NO KNOWLEDGE of 99.9999% of the total hands on FTP. Do you really think its logical to claim to know something is rigged when you have no knowledge of 99.9999% of the total hands dealt there. Do you think there are no players on FTP that have been drawn out on LESS than they should have? You talk about logic and proof. All you can logically prove is that you have been drawn out on more than you should have been on FTP. Thats all you can prove. I'm not even saying you are wrong, I'm just saying you don't have sufficient evidence to make even an educated guess, much less to claim proof.

BTW there is a very very good reason no one has "brought this to light". If someone tried to take some sort of legal action against FTP, claiming to have proof its rigged, because they were drawn out on more than they should have been based on a hand sample of less than .00001% of FTP's total hands, that person would be counter sued and FTP would take everything they have. You can't legally claim to have proof of something when, in fact, you have no way of proving anything. If you are so sure you are right and your proof is logical, why don't you try bringing it to light?





Billy Tk,
I totally agree with your post. It sums up my position perfectly. That IS the problem. That is why I don't claim to know whether or not FTP is rigged and have stated that none of us do and all we can do is trust our info and instincts to decide whether or not its a good place for us to play. I've always opposed people who claim its rigged. Not because I know its not, but because I do know that they don't have enough info to make any sort of educated guess on the matter.

VA Poker on October 14, 2009

...

what odds on October 13, 2009

here lies problem.... VA Poker your right.. those stats are just whatodds stats... and only his stats but.... ftp gets away with this cuz we dont have access to all hh... If I used HEM and posted my hh with the software and they showed almost exactly with whatodds shows would you just say thats only 2 guys samples???? What if 10, 20 or 50 more people came on here and posted hh with HEM software all showing relatively the same results of skewed and unreasonable hh... you nay sayers would prolly say the same thing (its only you 50 people showing this, just a small sample size, yada yada yada)... again the reason ft (aswell as ps)do get away with what they do is because of the very point that we dont have access to every HH.... if you cant make a comparison to all hh of all players then you will always have plausible denial and doubt..

billytk01 on October 13, 2009

whatodds,

All any of YOUR HEM stats show is YOUR results. YOUR results are a microscopic sample of FTP. All you can logically conclude from YOUR results is that you have been outdrawn more than you should have been. Thats all it shows. If you had results of every single hand played on FTP, showing the same thing, then you could say you have some sort of proof FTP is rigged. Do you think every other player on FTP has the exact same stats as you? Will you not even take into consideration that maybe, just maybe, there are some players on FTP that have been drawn out on less than they should have been? I'm not disputing anything you are saying. However, by the laws of logic, all you are showing is that you have been unlucky on FTP. I would venture to say that probably 30-40% of players are using some sort of tracking system these days. If all of those players had the same results as you, do you really think they'd still play on FTP? I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm just pointing out that you are extremely adamant about something you have no way of making any sort of educated guess about. Everyone on both sides of this argument, including myself, have done the same thing from time to time. My side of the argument cannot be proved anymore than your side, thats why I at least admit I don't KNOW.

VA Poker on October 13, 2009

...

what odds on October 13, 2009

Buck - thanks for the latest feedback - sincerely sorry to hear you are running bad. If we are going to play - it has to be FT - I closed my PS account. I have about $4,000 on FT - I hate HU (not my forte) but will do that if that is your strong preference, I would rather do a small (6 or 9 players) to medium (45 to 90 players) SNG and have a last longer bet. But whatever. You can pick the stakes - I play anywhere from $3 to $100 SNGs typically. Or we can wait until your bankroll/bills are in better shape. Happily - I am retired and no longer have the month to month $$ issues - but sure do have emphathy for those that do - any rate - you can get back to me when it is a good time/situation for the pissing contest :) - Better luck to ya. Going to a $30K gaurentee tourney now (only a $125 buy-in! - LA poker is the best!) - wish me luck.

eldave1 on October 12, 2009

VA you bastard! How dare you make a reasonable argument and make me re-think my position. I hate when that happens! :)

I think your last post is spot on- none of us really know. Some of us have data that lends us to beleive one thing and some have data that lends us to believe the opposite. At the end of the day - none of us have sufficient data.

I do beleive this - FT and the other sites could do a lot more in the marketing and PR world on this issue. Ironically, last month FT asked me to complete a fairly comprehensive questionairre on ways they could increase player satisfaction (actually gave me ten bucks in my account to do it). The three things I told them were:

1) Treat loyal, existing players as well as those you are trying to recruit. The large first time sign up bonuses should be shared with those who have been on the site (call them retention bonuses).

2) Make withdrawals as easy and timely as deposits. AND - most importantly

3) Prove/Market (you pick the term) that the card distribution is fair. The site that can do this can corner the market on this issue (i.e., here is the proof that we are dealing a fair game- hire Anderson Cooper or some large accounting firm to review and attest to actual hand histories - not just the RNG). It is a mystery to me why this is not pursued is marketing strategy number one for an on-line poker site. It is kind of like a company who makes electrical products not bothering with UL certification, a drug company not caring about FDA review, etc. etc. Demonstable intergrity should be the number one thing Poker Stars, FT, etc should be focusing on. If I owned a poker site - I would spend most of my effort on that. If they don't - the upstarts like REALDEAL or someone else is going to beat them to the punch.

Overall, you have changed my mind. My new view is going to simply be - I don't know, but I think it might be rigged based on my own experience.

eldave1 on October 12, 2009

VA you´ve got a solid point about the fact our 100k hands are a drip in the ocean of hands played at that site, and agree to expect all results to be similar would be absurd. The very nature of random states that if in 100k hands the odds of being out by a certain % is 100/1, then 1 in 100 will have seemingly rigged results, so there must be thousands of players out there feeling cheated by online poker, even though the RNG is straight.

Eldave, thankyou for paying your respects to my late bankroll. I do feel it´s important to be a winning player elsewhere to claim a certain site is rigged. Main point being that streaks of bad luck happen to huge,random degrees all the time, so without a positive winrate, it is not as black and white as saying ´Im a winning player and im down for the year´. eg roulette, a minus equity game for the player, theres a system where you can place $1 on red, if it hits win $1, if it´s black you double your next bet to $2. The idea is that you win $1 every time as long as you dont lose 7 or 8 in a row where the table limit will cut you off. If you try this(dont recomend with cash) at some point usually before you can get any decent money, you hit an oober bad streak of 8 blacks in a row, ive tried it its every freakin time! This is a perfect example how odds can feel rigged, and look rigged, but actually the odds have caught up with you. From the players perspective he has just had a 240/1 bad beat, but whether he´s just walked in or has been playing all night, it´s just the table indiscriminately collecting it´s debts.

15% ROI is a GOOD winrate for SNG, with the fast blind increases and relatively short stacks that online TOURNYS offer, I would say 8% is about right.

As for anyone who wants a game, my bankroll is a little pathetic due to epic bills and a bad run so would have to be around NL50 cash or one of the $30-$50 no blind-increase SNG´s headsup on pokerstars (but would play Fulltilt so wouldn´t be eating my own words, the real robbers are moneybookers and there 1.99% withdrawal tax, banked out $4000 without realising and stiffed me for 80 bones..fekin crooks!)

buck22 on October 11, 2009

And:

I have always stated on-line play is different - as I have posted several times I play on-line to learn how those players play because more and more they are entering the live games.

And:

It is not like I totally suck at it - I have a positive 8% ROI for 2009 - I wouldn't get my mantel ready for a trophy - but I wouldn't think I don't have a clue either

eldave1 on October 11, 2009

I wasn't just talking about this thread. I'm aware that this thread started years ago and there's been attacks back and forth many times. I was just saying that I've heard people on many different forums and threads state that online poker is rigged because they've won for years live and lose online.

I guess I'm not as smart as everyone else here, because I honestly don't KNOW whether its rigged or not. I don't have near enough info to make even an educated guess. I personally don't think its rigged, I've played well over a million hands on different sites and I haven't seen anything that makes me very suspicious. I stopped posting on this thread awhile ago because I think people on both sides are attempting use anecdotal evidence as "proof". Everyone seems to loose perspective as to how many hands are dealt every second on these sites and how microscopic any of our results are compared to the big picture. One player might play 100k hands on a site and their stats might look just right. Another player might play 100k hands on the same site and his stats might look very very strange. So person #1 says its legit while person #2 says its totally rigged. Neither person considers the fact that their stats over any given period of time are probably .0000001% of the total hands dealt by that site over said period of time. I do agree that stats should even out over time for any given site. However, just because they even out for the site doesn't mean they are going to even out for every single last player on the site. To expect that is absurd.

I'm not trying to kill the debate, but I think both sides should admit that they don't KNOW whether or not its rigged and that none of us have enough hard evidence to make an educated guess either way. We might feel a certain way because of what we have seen. Buck and I think its legit, most of the rest of you think the opposite.

VA Poker on October 11, 2009

Track the threads VA - the only reason it comes up is because the non-riggeres inevitably state the riggers only hold their view because they are losing, don't know poker, etc. i.e., it is always a response to an attack. No one comes in to the thread and says I'm great so I know it is rigged. We are only responding to "you suck."

eldave1 on October 11, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldave1 View Post
Where you misdirect is that no one on this post has stated that "they are a good poker player so therefore there opinion that on-line is rigged is more valid." They/we merely describe our HH, experience with the on-line sites, etc. etc. One poster - you - opine that the riggers opinion is invalid because they are bad players. The fact of the matter is one's skill level is irrevelant in this debate.

Sorry about your bad run.

That being said - what is the challenge - i.e., what are the stakes, structure, etc. I am interested

I agree with you that a posters poker skills are basically irrelevant to this debate. That is why I don't understand why all you guys who say its rigged always feel the need to tell us how good you are, or how many live tournaments you cashed in or how much money you've won live. Just because you win live and lose online doesn't mean online poker is rigged. I played for many years live before I discovered online poker. I was a winning live player but was losing in my first 18 months or so online. Instead of saying "it must be rigged because i'm losing", I realized it was a totally different game and therefore required a different strategy to win. I honestly don't see how anyone can have any success online playing the same way they do live.

VA Poker on October 11, 2009

to buck22......

Im not a proclaimed winner and nor do I claim to be consistant winning player (cuz things can change) but as of right now I am fortunate to be a very endowed (bank roll wise) player that has won and cashed in many tournerys live and online ... my 2008 run online speaks for itself (over 200k in winnings with over a 500% roi) 2009 online has been completely horrible ( i have cashed a fair amount of times but nothing to write home about) anyway ive pretty much given up online til a more fairly/honest regulated means is established...

but as i said to your challenge earlier... I will play you HU live (Live play there would be no excuses about poker skill)... just pick a venue and let me know... but I from what I read eldave is more than willing to give you a game of it... so good luck with whatever you choose.....

billytk01 on October 11, 2009

Where you misdirect is that no one on this post has stated that "they are a good poker player so therefore there opinion that on-line is rigged is more valid." They/we merely describe our HH, experience with the on-line sites, etc. etc. One poster - you - opine that the riggers opinion is invalid because they are bad players. The fact of the matter is one's skill level is irrevelant in this debate.

Sorry about your bad run.

That being said - what is the challenge - i.e., what are the stakes, structure, etc. I am interested

eldave1 on October 11, 2009

Im not writing a poker book, i´m giving advice aimed at certain causes for increased bad beats. This advice would if taken would account for 90% of the posters on here, but for the 10% that insist their game is top notch with many years live experience, I´d like to play them HU to see if their game reflects the years of good observation and experimenting , or whether (as I suspect) your game is not upto standards for the increasing talent online.

The challenge wasn´t a boast, it´s a test to see if you all are as confident about your games as you say you are. Every player thinks they are the bollox, we all have that in common, but the difference is the winners and the ´i run so badders´.

As for my angry post, it´s kinda like someone moaning they stubbed their toe when I´ve broken my leg. I´ve had the worst run of my life dropping around 50 buy-ins in 3 months with no let up and all these posts moan that a 3 outer got there. I play lots of hands and get at least one 3outer/hour, rack up a good 10-15 monster bad beats every day, but as far as im concerned this is totally normal. Sorry if I went a little overboard.

Regarding the challenge, win or lose, I would find out how you approach the game, that was the point. Im in the full belief online poker is cosure so would love to find out why you guys lose money. I´ve noticed my offer hasn´t been accepted(with the stated terms) yet though, surprising from a thread full of self-proclaimed winners.

buck22 on October 11, 2009

Buck:

1) why the rage? you would think we insulted your mother or something. You anger is way out of proportion to the issue.

2) You do read - yes??? You understand that I was describing one hand that was illustrative of many that I have had - that I did just get bad beat once and started sobbing.

3) Spare me the it's your perception/you remember the hands you lose, blah blah - as I have posted before - I keep track of every single hand. You have posted this perception crap about a dozen times completely ignoring mine, Billys, etc etc statements that are opinions are based on an assessment of our actual HHs - not our poor memories.

4) the faith you put in these hyper space guys is overwhelming - Do you even know who owns FT???? No, you don't - no one does. There software was developed by Tiltware, they are sponsored by many. most notably Ferguson - but no one knows who the actual owners even are. Think about that - a company that rakes this much $$ and their ownership is secret.

5) Please - for the sake of God stop with the poker advice - it makes me cringe. I have been playing for more then 30 years, including the WSOP and WTP events, and it makes me want to vomit when some noob on the internet holds them out as an expert, or worse, someone who ought to be given advice on poker. When I need guidance - I'll consult one of the dozen or so of poker books on my shelf or bs around with the the real high stake players at any one of the half dozen REAL casinos in the Los Angeles area. I don't need it from a penny ante on-line player. You hubris is comical.

5) Your challenge - okay - so, does the winner win the argument? is that point - you beat me and I concede it is not rigged? I beat you and you concede it is rigged?? Is that the point of the challenge in context of this debate. If not - the point is???????

eldave1 on October 10, 2009

buck22... i say this in all sincerity and honesty.... I will accept your challenge but... I will play you HU live not online.. obviously geographics may be a problem... but I do travel alot with my job and play at various venues regularly... maybe we can arrange something friendly like a 1k hu or something (even tho I dont really know how good my game is at hu but i do like a challenge) but i play regularly at hollywood park casino in los angeles, borgata/taj mahal in atlantic city, mirage/wynn/bellagio in las vegas.... if any of these venues are acceptable and my schedule allows as well as you than we can do this...

but I have no faith or interest in playing online..

billytk01 on October 10, 2009

Per Eldave, Billy, + whoever belives in rigged poker sites, my challenge (which rarely gets accepted) is always on offer that I will play you HU anytime, anysite, not only because the sites are fair, but because I believe the true purpose of Poker is to improve your game and ´I will win money or become a better player´ Many players on this thread say they are good players but until they accept a challenge from a random thread-poster, I can only assume that TRULY you don´t have any confidence in your own game and therefore have no right to post slanderous threads against the major online poker sites.

So is it ´releasing steam´ or accepting my challenge?

buck22 on October 9, 2009

If I could count the number of 3-outers on one hand that ive had this week, I´d be married to Pamela Anderson. Seriously, for f$$$ sake when are you bingo-jockies gonna wake up and realise poker not only doesn´t owe you a living, but is not gonna favour you over 5000 entrants cos you picked up top pair!!! Ive got AK! Ive got AK! and an ace flopped!! SO FEKIN WHAT??!!! You survived a flush/straight/underpair/overpair draw last time what the f$$$ makes you think you should dodge it this time. Eldave it´s been 5 days since your last post and all you got is a measly 3-outer? Within the laws of mathmatics you should (and im sure you did) get far more nasty beats in this time!


I play around 800 hands/hour, getting my money in mostly with positive equity(i hope), but im not counting the times i win or lose every sesssion, it would drive me insane! I all in with trips vs pair and lose, then all in Ace high vs pair and win, that´s a game in then life of a poker player! Your crap calls win and your great calls lose because why?...They´re the ones you remember! Freak coicidences stick out, whilst hands that stand up are momentarily appreciated then forgotten.

You insist on playing online multi-player tourney´s (with shorter stacks, more players and shorter blind increases than live) and then moan when you don´t reach the big bucks! GOOD! YOU DONT DESERVE IT! I play a ridiculous amount of SINGLE tables per hour so that 2 or 3 make it into the money, and you play one ooober 5000 entrant tourny a day and expect a house? GET REAL!

The average profitable grinder earns between 10%-20% of whatever they have bet so unless you´re betting $10,000 a game as a profitable player, dont expect any riches soon!

If you grind 8 single tables for 4 hours a day, you will realise poker is a cruel but fair game over a 2-3 months, but playing 1 multi-table a day, you aren´t gonna have a clue about variance until a few years down the line.

Take it from a multi-table grinder that the shit you see and write about every few days happens to me every few minutes, but take it in your stride, and by the end of the season, you´ll have all the profit you TRULY deserve. Blaming rigged sites is bullshit! There are thousands of grinders profiting from these sites, and the sooner you realise this and make that all-important change to your pre-flop play/flop play/turn play/river play/bankroll management/game selection/player selection/profit selection/frame of mind/ etc the sooner you can start taking control of the games you play. Good luck and ffs get real!

buck22 on October 9, 2009

Per Buck - When a losing player says it is rigged it is because they are a loser. When a winning player says it is rigged it is bogus because no way they could say it was rigged if they won. So -I guess the only valid opinions for Buck are those who break exactly even.

I won $2,000 last night and $1,200 today. AND - I still think it is juiced. I saw more horrendous beats in a half hour then I see in a week at a casino.

One way I won - and this is a shame - I folded every pair of pocket kings I had PRELOP. I have a 47% win rate and a killer negative ROI with the second best hand in poker online - so, I just started tossing them like they were 2-3 off.

Sure as shit - in a tourney this morning I decide to play them - UTG raises - I re-raise - he calls - flop is 9-7-2 rainbow - he checks - I shove all in - he got 9-8 (yep - he call a huge preflop raise with 9-8 off), turn = 2 - I am golden - sure as shit hits his two outer 9 on river. So - KK in the trash every time now - when I get them live - chaaaaa-ching!!!! On-line - I get stacked.

The worst scenarios where the odds are skewed on FT is when you hit top pair top kicker. This is how the hand always plays out. You got K-Q or something like that and bet preflop - you get a caller - flop comes Q - 6- 2 with two hearts. Player checks. You bet and they shove all in right back at ya. You think if he had the A-Q - he would have bet to protect from the flush draw. Would he shove all on a draw?

You call and he shows q-8 of clubs and the 8 hits the turn before you can get the "wtf are you doing out of your mouth."

This hand happens to me so many times it is frightening - 1) they should have not called preflop (2) they should have not checked their Q on the flop cause they needed to see where they were in the hand (3) they shouldn't have shoved over a raise with a Q and a shit kicker and (4) they of course win.

AGAIN - you see this play on-line because it is perversely rewarded. You don't see it live because it is appropriately punished and those who play that bad either go broke or they change their ways.

eldave1 on October 9, 2009

to buck 22....

and posts like yours only make me and everyone else believe that your a shrill for full rigged or joker stars.....

the easiest thing i could do is post my hh on the last 8 bust outs on joker stars where i was rivered by sets against top prs but what will that prove since anyone can change the text on the hh..... so whether you believe or not I could care f'n less..... in fact no matter what info is posted you will try to rebuke/refute the info cuz you are infact a shrill for some online site or you just have no understanding of the differences from live poker to online poker... I bet you prolly have never stepped in a casino/live poker room and online poker is all you know... do you know how many guys that i have played against that finally come to a live game after only playing online poker all their lives and they get stacked right away cuz they are making loose plays, out of position calls/raises and they leave the table wondering why the 3 outer gutshot that they always hit online doesnt hit in a live deck... its comical... I think you are one of those guys.. you really believe that online plays like real poker.. that is comical...

Anyway, as far as expecting to continue to win hundreds of thousands of dollars playing the sunday $200 + buy in online tourneys is unrealistic, yes.... but i never claimed i should be winning all those tourneys... i dont know where you get that idea from... do ya think i luck boxed my way into the big money??? hardly... I play just solid abc poker and it works.. anyway, my argument is that when i cashed out from full rigged the cash out curse hit and it hit hard in which i never recovered... its one thing to hit downsings for a significant amount of time in which you claim happens all the time (and i agree) but its another when the downswing, badbeats, etc.. is expected and continues to play out in unbelievable ways... i have no problem losing, i have no problem with bad beats, but when you see patterns emerging, peculiar hands/calls/raises, same ridiulous scenarios week in and week out it just makes you scratch your head in amazement...

fyi... Im also am/was a part time online player, the only thing that attracted me to online poker was the equity in the Sunday tourneys and some of the bigger buy in tourneys, I mean where else can you buyin for $200 and walk away with 100 or 200k in 8-9 hrs of work.. anyway, I am more of a big buyin live player.. I live just an hour outside of Atlantic City and about 1 1/2 hrs outside of foxwoods/mohegan sun so i play in just about every big buy in tourney usually more so at Borgata in Atlantic City... So far this year I have played in 8 big buy in tourneys ranging from $500 to $3600 (including wpt) I have cashed in 4 (3 big cashes and 1 small cash/ winning one of the events in the summer poker open at borgata)... so i know what the realistic expectations are and when you compare the cards that are dealt and play of live action to online there is clearly a disparaging difference.. but again buck i could really care less of what you think cuz your agenda is pretty clearly apparant...

billytk01 on October 9, 2009

Posts like Billys only secure my belief online ISN´T rigged. Clearing $200k in a year playing piss-ant stakes then claiming it´s rigged when the same doesn´t happen in 9 months. Do you realise how freakin lucky you were to clear $200k in one year? You think professionals would multi-table 5/10 risking $1000´s a day if they could clear $200k a year playing $20-$100 buy in tourny´s. The vast majority of these posts are based on complete ignorance on how much you are meant to win in the real world of poker.

Billy the chance of getting sucked out on pkt pair vs tp is around 9%, 8 times in a row the chance is 214,358,881 to 1, you seriously expect anyone to believe you? You are either lying or you are the unluckiest sod that ever lived and if i were you i wouldnt leave the house incase i got hit by a bus, plane and fuel tanker simultaneously.

Once again Stars is brought into question, numerous posts on here that stars is legit and yet still rigged posts flood in. STARS IS NOT RIGGED, I PLAY THERE 3,500 HANDS A DAY AND STATS ARE COSURE!

Ultimate bet and Absolute poker are the same network so you´re making it sound like these were 2 separate incidents. UB and AP did not rig there software in any way, 2 ex-employees hacked into the system having super user accounts, nothing to do with the RNG whatsoever! Granted, that was a serious lapse in security. People have had money removed from bank accounts by hackers, doesn´t mean the banks are in on it. Pokerstars and Fulltilt have great security and realistically the only security threat is pokerbots and colluders, not rigged RNG´s.

The more idiotic posts on here I read, the more I am so sure of the safety of these sites.

buck22 on October 9, 2009

Wow this discussion has really picked up since i last posted... but my 2 cents is this... jokerstars and full rigged are equally rigged online sites....

Now I admit I do not track my stats with software but I do however save all my hh and I actually copy/paste peculiar/bad beat hands to a bad beat folder for personal reference... alll I can say is that after my successful run on full rigged for 2 months back in '08 when i cleared over 200k in tourney winnings, I cashed out and never recovered.... the card patterns changed and the bad beats were unbelievable... I ran like this for over 9 months until I finally closed my account for good..... Now, on joker stars... the last 8 tourneys I have played I have flopped top pair with top kicker only to lose on set on river... this is 8 times in a row now... what are the odds of that... Its to the point where its almost automatic now, I never know where i am in a hand... anyway, Im taking a 6 month break from online now... Im just waiting for the new online site real deal poker to come online and maybe ill check that out or hopefully just hopefully the US will finally legalize online poker and we wont have to worry about these rigged sites again....

but something to think about... remember how everyone was saying and defending online poker saying that why would they rig it, why would they risk losing players... just look at UB, AP and now possibly FT.. nothing suprises me....

billytk01 on October 8, 2009

Buck - all I said was that my experience at Poker Stars was the same - I have had FAR less play time there - so, if you and WHAT both beleive that it is legit - I'll concede to that and give it another whirl. HOWEVER - remember that this started with FT is rigged - that is the issue you were arguing and - at least for me - have not seen anything to convince me otherwise.

Now, I think the industry is about to face that moment of truth ala this lawsuit. If FT goes through with this - shows their data - wins the case - I would have to rethink my position. If they lose or settle out of court - that'll be the death nail for me. Also - if the settle, look for the suits against every other major site - whether they are true or not. This will be a very, very interesting case.

eldave1 on October 4, 2009

...

what odds on October 3, 2009

Wow, l take back my bull-sh** card, someone IS taking FT to court over house-bots allegations, really hope it isn't true for the sake of online poker, 2 guys are taking FT to court because $80k was taken out their account when it was discovered they had used poker-bots, one question, why would 2 guys who could prove FT was rigged wait until now to uncover it, proving a major online site is rigged must be worth millions in settlement, let alone other royalties. Because of this it does look a bit like a retaliation bid.

You are right what-odds, i dont play fulltilt much, only got about 8000 hands logged there, so I can't comment. However, eldave1 is claiming pokerstars is as rigged as fulltilt, you can see why im sceptical when I can hand on heart stars is legit.

buck22 on October 3, 2009

...

what odds on October 3, 2009

First - the full tilt case - what is happening is FT took two players $$ for being BOTS - the players are counter suing alleging that FT employs the use of house BOTs. The case hit the wires today. Here is an article extract:
==============================================
"Full Tilt sued for seizing funds in alleged bot case

Is it just me, or has poker gone completely lawsuit-crazy this year? There’s another poker case on the docket in Los Angeles County Superior Court, this time alleging that Full Tilt Poker unfairly seized more than $80,000 in winnings from players Lary Kennedy and Greg Omotoy.

Full Tilt says the two players had their funds taken because they used bots in violation of the site’s terms of service, and that determination was made by consulting a third party expert. The players, meanwhile, claim in their lawsuit that Full Tilt itself uses bots itself to manipulate the outcome of hands played on the site. The actual documents in the case haven’t been released yet so it’s impossible at this point to make a determination of what to believe based on any sort of evidence, but there will almost certainly be more information on the way in the near future.

Full Tilt has had a rough go in the legal realm lately; this is the third lawsuit that the popular online room is currently facing, including others from former employee J.D. Newitt and former Team Full Tilt member Clonie Gowen."
===============================================

Now - this will be interesting - hopefully, if FT is legit they will not settle this case since now they have folks claiming in legal papers that they use BOTS. Who knows, maybe even HHs will be made available. HOWEVER, FT needs to use this case to demonstrate that they are legit - think about it - they could end up with a court decision saying the evidence = they are legit. If the settle out of court, I will be very disappointed. We'll see.

In terms of Joker Stars - not sure why that is where the arguement falls apart for you. But whatever. What you need to realize Buck is that not all of our experiences and data are the same. If your data shows that you are getting a legit deal - mue bueno. BUT - that doesn't mean that's what mine of WHAT ODDS data shows. Like WHAT ODDS - over a long period of time, my data - FOR MY HANDS - do not reflect statistically valid results. If it is just my hands - cool - guess
sooner or later the data will change - but don't tell me what my data is. I have scoured it back and forth. AND - I do know exactly!!!!! when I hit flush draws, when they're hit against me etc. As an example, for all my hands (where I went to showdown), my opponents hit a flush 35% of the time - overall. HOWEVER - if more than half my stack is at risk, they hit 56% - that is what I see - good for you that your results are different

eldave1 on October 2, 2009

See this is where the arguement falls apart for me, apparently 'jokerstars' is rigged aswell. I play 3600 hands a day on this site, there's sh!* loads of bad beats but I still win over a given time. You gonna tell me they rig it so certain area codes win now? Yeah,sh** happens and can last ages, i got old posts lying around here somewhere swearing stars is rigged, but months down the line you realise it's a ridiculous concept, and that your money comes back with interest.

What-odds, you ever multi-table? As an experiment just try this. Any stake, open up 8 SNG's and play 4 hours a day of this. You guys aint seen shit till you try this. It literally seems like every AA and KK gets cracked, evry trips hits a runner runner beat, it's fekin brutal. I've been up against this all week, but after finishing a session Im 90% of the time up.
Im also gonna play the 'bullshit' card with this 'FullTilt sued for house bots', don't you think this case wouldas rattled round the poker community a bit? It'll be pokernews headline when that happens, i plain don't belive Fulltilt are on trial for house bots.

Yeah you get better hands more often online to balance out the crap, but who takes note of their flush draw coming in, or 2pairing up on the turn, that goes straight to the back of your mind. But get your trips beaten by runner runner straight and your pasting conspiracy theories over the net. Also how much of a crap FTP rep would I be coming on here and claiming the best poker site is pokerstars? Think about it whatodds!

Ive had an epic $4k downswing last 3 months but have made alot of money in last 9 months playing at stars, why the hell would they favour me above you? Where's the gain for them?

Now I don't play on FT, cant get rakeback+THE PLAYERS ARE TOUGHER! But my experince on pokerstars is that it's legit, so there's no doubt in my mind that if you can't grind a profit on pokerstars, you are doing something wrong! Be it table selection, game selection, leaks in your game, or you plain just aren't beating the rake. But keep telling yourself it's rigged, that'll improve your profit.

buck22 on October 2, 2009

Buck writes:

"Anyway, fulltilt is the toughest site on the net, and I don't think you give enough respect to the fact that stupid calls (for stupid reasons) can actually be a better EV than folding. I've noticed that due to the loose nature of online players, idiots can actually walk into making a not so bad play. With these loose players, the variance is much higher than a table of good players."

First - Stupid calls for stupid reasons can never be positive EV - that is unless the site is rigged. I guarentee you will never hear a live player say - ya know - I think I'll make some stupid calls for stupid reasons. This may be the worst argument I have heard.

Buck writes:

So why are you still playing at Fulltilt when Americans can play on pokerstars, and it's much better anyway? Please tell me why u are still there

First - I don't think Joker Stars is any better then FT. I think they're both juiced. There are two reasons why I play on-line:

1. I make my money live - there has been a wave of players into the live games and it is essential to be able to recognize these players (for example, someone doesn't fold a flush draw when they obviously were not given the right price to call, when they shove their $5,000 stack with only $150 in the pot, etc. etc. = online player. So - I play online to keep in touch with the online style - they are the easiest players to trap in live games - just got to be patient - and you'll stack them.

2. To keep track of betting patterns. One thing about on-line is that you need to develop skills to track betting patterns as there are no other real tells. I do not use software when I am playing on-line for that very reason - I want to exercise the mental discipline to remember seat three has raised three straight times on the cutoff, etc. This exercise has translated well to my live play.

That's it

eldave1 on October 2, 2009

...

what odds on October 2, 2009

Realised in past few days that the rate at which you see hands can really warp your view on odds. Ive been multi-tabling last few days, and the bad beats and cold decks are hurrendous, both ways. Play 8 tables and you'll vomit every 5 minutes. Compared to playing one online table, it can seem like youre the unluckiest guy7 in the world one session and the luckiest the next. Considering around 35 hands/hr get dealt live to 100-150/hr online, its not that different between the gap of 1 online table and online multi-tabling. Yet difference in feeling the game when it comes to outdraws is huge! Anyway, fulltilt is the toughest site on the net, and I don't think you give enough respect to the fact that stupid calls (for stupid reasons) can actually be a better EV than folding. I've noticed that due to the loose nature of online players, idiots can actually walk into making a not so bad play. With these loose players, the variance is much higher than a table of good players.

Anyway no-ones coming forward with these rigged stats, noone ever will (personally i think its because they are fictional) So why are you still playing at Fulltilt when Americans can play on pokerstars, and it's much better anyway? Please tell me why u are still there

buck22 on October 1, 2009

I would add that you do not often see the crap cards and sick calls in live play because those players have learned that you do no get paid off in the long haul when that is your game - i.e., they experience losing and therefore change to become better players. There is no such disincentive in online because the way the card hit tell you to play the crap

eldave1 on September 30, 2009

Dead on what odds

eldave1 on September 30, 2009

...

what odds on September 30, 2009

so you win more coin flips to balance out 2to1 draws? so theres players losing more coinflips than they should, but hit more 2to1 than they should? They must have to group there players to win/lose certain hands or poker is a volitile game and a longterm player is gonna go through patches of weird swings.

Problem i have is players say this about all the sites, sites I win on, but occasionally experience wild swings and bullsh*t variance. IT DOESN'T SEEM POSSIBLE TO BE BAD BEAT 6 TIMES IN A ROW!!! but considering ive played 6-7 years, seeing around a million hands, what can't happen?

You've had downswings obviously, but ive just come out of a 60 buyin downswing! I lost $4k in 3 months, complete bullsh*t. But ask a mathmetician if this can happen some point in a million hands and he'll probably tell you it's likely.

It is far more likely that you need to either improve your game OR change your mind-set of the game. Gambling books say a player can run bad for 6 MONTHS!! I guaruntee that your bad luck is a molehill compared to this, so accept bad beats and cold-decks happen whenever and for how ever long they bleedin like.

buck22 on September 30, 2009

...

what odds on September 30, 2009

You write:

"Tracking software any player can buy for $80 tracks stats such as 'All-in EV', so why the hell would any site rig all in situations when any player has the ability to collect stats on it? Data-mining sites with billions of hands tracked.."

No shit sherlock - I use Poker Tracker now and used Hold em manager before that. So, my data for my hands comes from that. NOW - sit down for a moment and take a breath - there are not "billions" of hands out there for data mining - that is a falsehood on your part. A player only has access to his hands. The sites keep the hands to themselves. None of them release them. So - you are just wrong.

You write:

"They would never get away with it! And sacrifice a business growing by the day!! Do you see where im coming from? AM I GETTING THROUGH TO YOU AT
ALL?..."

No - your not. I guess you're not familiar with any firms that have risked an otherwise successful business by using shenigans - guess you don't remember Worldcom, Enron, etc, etc. It has happened time and time again. The what incentive do they have argument is tiresome. History is full of firms who cheated to make an extra buck and as a result brought their entire company down.

You write:

"Eldave, for the love of god PLAY CASH GAMES!"

WTF makes you think you have any clue on the types of games I play. So you don't have to guess, I play MTTS, SNGs and yes - CASH. I also play live five or six times a week at one of the many casinos here in the LA area. I pretty much play full time (about 60 hours worth a week) and am quite profitable in live play. So please - spare me the amateurish advice.

You write:

"Now before anyone puts in the next post, just glance through all my posts and ask yourself 'Can you find a post by me that doesn't give a rational reason for what has happened in your game?'"

First - yes I can find them. Second, don't twist your ankle falling off your pedastal. Here is the reality - DRUM ROLL...there are experienced, knowledgable poker players that beleive on-line is rigged - we really are not waiting for you to come down from the mount and deliver us the wisdom of the game. Change you tone and I'll have a reasoned discussion with you - if you're just going to be an arrogant ass - don't bother

eldave1 on September 29, 2009

Tracking software any player can buy for $80 tracks stats such as 'All-in EV', so why the hell would any site rig all in situations when any player has the ability to collect stats on it? Data-mining sites with billions of hands tracked, do you really believe Fulltilt, a multi-billion dollar company would rig their software AND over-look the fact every hand on their site is tracked by millions of webpage businesses and players? Do you think maybe after billions of hands being tracked they would have been caught by now by people far smarter than all of us put together? It would be like walking into the royal mint, and walking out the front door with a wheel barrow full of cash! They would never get away with it! And sacrifice a business growing by the day!! Do you see where im coming from? AM I GETTING THROUGH TO YOU AT ALL?

Eldave, for the love of god PLAY CASH GAMES!! The turn will be a 7 1/13 times so get a stack that you can make a read and muck your hand when it's dead in the water. Playing by the book doesn't make it the right play, 'was it the right play for the situation?' is what you need to be asking, could you keep the pot smaller or even fold when a scary turn comes?

Create a thread ' Discussion on hands and strategy' cos you're barking up the wrong tree when you blame rigged sites.

When you play in tournys with 1000's of people in, and you play well, 99% of them you will get a hurendous bad beat, because....drum roll...........Other wise youd win $10000s every game, the flip side of winning $25,000 being is bad beat out of the tourny. Play cash and SNG's and you bankroll will have less variance.

Now before anyone puts in the next post, just glance through all my posts and ask yourself 'Can you find a post by me that doesn't give a rational reason for what has happened in your game?'

buck22 on September 29, 2009

haven't posted in a while - see the argument rages on - I am still on Billy's side of the issue. If you looked at the overall stats - they hold up (e.g., your KK will win 75% of the time - BUT - that includes all the times you had no caller for your KK - if you look at showdowns - ugh!!)

I ignore the overall stats and simply look at all in show downs - for me this is a fact - MOST OF THE TIME more then 50%) WHEN I GET MY MONEY IN AS THE FAVORITE - I DO NOT WIN. If I add in the 'WTF hands" it is even worse. For example, I have AK and raise 4 times the BB preflop. I get one caller and the flop comes A-K-7. I raise and get called. Turn comes 7 and the guy shoves - I call and he shows 7-4 off suit. Sure I was the dog at all in - but -no way the fella should have been in the hand - no way I could fold. That happens a lot. They are the type of players you hope for live and dread on-line.

There are a lot of other things you see on-line that are inexplicable versus the live game (e.g., how many times a flop hits three or more players. If I had a nickel for every flop that gave player 1 a straight, player 2 a set, player 3 top two pair and player 4 a flush draw I would be a very rich man. As you already know, the flush draw wins.

More and more live players I know are leaving on-line altogether based on their belief that it is rigged - folks who love poker leaving the sites - antecdotal I know, but I think it is telling.

Lastly - even if it is random (which I think not) - I hate the RNG at FT because - as they state themselves, card distribution is influenced by mouseclicks, how long a player takes to act, etc. That means you can never tell when you fold whether you would have hit the flop or not (i.e., because your fold action changes the card dist) - makes it less enjoyable for me

Anyway - my three cents

eldave1 on September 29, 2009

buck 22 said.... "But you have to ask yourself. With all the stats software available, more professionals playing than ever before, all the customers they have, all the money they make anyway, WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY RIG IT?"

first, What professionals do you speak of? I very rarely, and I mean rarely if ever see any of the big name players such as hansen, negraneu, ivey, matusow, raymer, ferguson, greenstein, etc... playing online unless its a big sponsored buy-in tourney on stars or tilt in which they are obligated to play... the only pros "i guess you would call'em pros's, i use the term loosely" that i see online are the regular online players such as elky, dwan, etc...

Second, you ask the question why would the online poker sites rig anything with all the customers and traffic that they currently have...???? the reason is simple my friend... GREED!!!! and the fact that there is no where else to play at the moment that is safely regulated.... Until the United States govt decides to legalize online poker (gambling) and actively fairly regulate these sites then we will continue to be at the mercy of whatever these unregulated sites want to do... think of it this way... lets say you win a huge tourney on stars for lets say 200k, and then stars decides to open up a random and unwarranted investigation based on whatever they want to make up and then decide against giving you the money... guess what? you have no recourse... nothing you can do, no one you can contact... these are the people that we are dealing... now im not saying that this is something they will do, but they could do it and theres absolutely nothing you can do about it....

PS..... I didnt have much luck at the World poker tour in atlantic city at the borgata... I was virtually card dead from the start until my demise in the 7th level of day 1.... anytime i did pick up a hand such as AK or AQ it was a total airball on the flop for me, just as well as anytime I held a middle pocket pair the board would hit with all over cards.... anyway I finally busted out in the 7th level with A10s... called 1+ utg raise (3x bb) with my aforementioned A10s, and the flop came 10h 4s 7s... Utg bet 2k, I raised all in for last 13k, Utg tanked for about 3min and called... UTG tabled QhQd... no help on turn or river and I was gone.... I left the tourney with a disgusted feeling cuz i never felt i got to play at all.. I felt like a starting qb who never got to throw a pass and just took a bunch of sacks... i mean i was so card dead that i could not make any moves whatsoever.... oh well....

billytk01 on September 24, 2009

Just a thought, but everyone who posts on this thread hasn't found it by googling 'Full Tilt forums' or 'Full tilt opinions', they've typed 'Full Tilt rigged' so surprise surprise, you get a group of players that all have had a serious downswing. The stats you are grouping ,whatodds, are extremely biased. As opposed to taking random samples of players stats, you are taking random samples of just LOSING players stats.

I am in the eye of the most epic downswing I hope I will ever encounter, 3 months and down around 40-50 buyins. I have played my best poker and had my money in great but variance is kicking my arse. This bad run has followed me through 4 sites. they can't all be rigged. and the funny thing is the only place I made money was 4000 hands I played on Fulltilt. This bullsh** is on every site.

Maybe they're rigged, maybe not. But you have to ask yourself. With all the stats software available, more professionals playing than ever before, all the customers they have, all the money they make anyway, WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY RIG IT? One thing I know is either none of them are rigged or ALL of them are rigged, occam's razor, which do you really think it is?

buck22 on September 23, 2009

...

what odds on September 23, 2009

This is my theory of on line poker sites. I have played from party poker days to full tilt now and belive that all these sites are rigged in a manner that favors the new or small time player. If you are a regular player that plays for entertainment that can afford, say $500.00 to $2000.00 each month, chances are you will never get ahead. Why, because these sites love guys like you that keep coming back every day. Say they know a certain individual usually loses $200.00 and doesn't come back for a month, versus some who can afford much more, who do you think they want to see wins? The $200.00 guy of course,
because if all these guys get knocked out there's
no more game and guess what, no more rake. I play alot of sng tournaments and constantly see all-ins
that the worst hand wins. There is no way King Jack can dominate Ace Ten 8 out of ten times, but sure enough it does. I also play alot of omaha hi and constantly see someone holding AA raising pre flop getting called with whatever, and guess what the flop will be. Chances are the whatever hit 2 pair and the AA has a flush draw, so it becomes an all-in situation. These flops happen to generate action at the tables. But the bottom line to me still is, if your a regular player willing to lose a decent amount every month, you will lose to a new or smaller player. They need to keep these players in the game or no more rake for them. I've played on this site now for 3 years and i'll green note all players who sucked out on me with stupid draws; guess what 2 weeks later you'll never see them playing again, because yes in time they will lose due to their bad play, but they got your money which is what these sites want knwoing you'll keep coming back.

LukeS on September 20, 2009

to buck22.... this response is in no way hostile or to be taken in any bad way...

It just seems to be that you are not seeing the true nature of online poker... everything that you speak of (ie... the downswings, grinding, 90% of poker players are losing players, etc...) are all pretty much true when it comes to "live" poker, but I tend to digress when you say it applies to online poker aswell..... I too have seen so many patterns that are present in online play (ie... incredible, constant and inevitable suckouts by bigger stacks late in tourneys against the all in smaller stacks, constant and consistant runs of dealt cards in hole (ie.. being dealt 10's five times in a row followed by 2-? three times in a row, followed by ??? you get the idea).... as I have stated many times before in previous threads that its easy for poker sites to skew the mass data into make people think that the odds/implied odds of hands are true to live poker standards/percentages but in order to get a true idea of whats really going on is you have to look at specific instances/situations (ie....such as all ins by a short stack against a big stack, how many times a flopped draw [either flush or straight] hits against a pckt pr or over pr, etc, etc......) In my personal experience, I have won over 200k on full tilt in 2008, but as soon as i cashed out it was all down hill from... losing on you name it impossible scenarios... It got to the point whenever i got dealt big pckt prs such as AA or KK I felt i was being set up and usually i was right losing to weak 2 prs, etc.... (even if i bet big pre-flop it didnt matter cuz the fish were rewarded..) oh heres another thing i love about online poker... why is that whenever I flop a set is it always in the middle of a straight or flush draw... Im serious when I say this.. about 90% of the time i flop a set in the middle of a draw... its hilarious.... anyway I have since closed my full tilt account for good (I sent ft a very nasty email) and now I have been playing on pokerstars (ie... jokerstars is what it should be called) and it is just as bad if not worse then FT... right now I am 0 for 17 with kk on jokerstars in all ins or calling another players all in... again just last night playing another tourney on jokerstars I had kk late in a tourney ( i had about 6k in chips... under the gun raised to 2k, i pushed all in for 6k, everyone else folds.. utg calls and shows 66... i told my wife watch this, i said he will flop a set or hit on river.. sure enough 6 on river.... I just laughed at the garbage... anyway... I am done with online poker for good until the US legalizes and regulates it within the states... oh well, enough ranting...

PS.... I am heading down to the borgata in atlantic city on saturday 9/18... I am playing in the World Poker Tour at borgata in sundays field... 3,500k buy in.... so keepin fingers crossed that run pretty good.... Wish me luck guys...

billytk01 on September 18, 2009

The sites you've named are among the toughest sites in the world to grind a profit at. In poker 90% of players lose anyway. Now, ask yourself again if you really think it's rigged or maybe there's another reason.

Poker is a game of small edges battling the rake and increasingly better players, which means profit varies considerably, within a few thousand hands ANYTHING can happen, over 100,000 hands you will get a truer value for your equity in the game, be it positive or negative.

The most worrying part is to come though, 'you haven't seen sh** yet'. Running bad for a week every now and again happens, but you haven't had an oober downswing yet have you? I grinded $10-$8400 over the last 8 months and have just watched $4500 of it evapourate, A 3 MONTH DOWNSWING!!! AND ITS STILL NOT OVER!!!! Apparently, theres a gambling book that says it's possible to run bad for 6 months!!

'Random' does exactly what it says on the tin, it'll soar your bankroll at an alarming rate. and it can screw you for every penny, this happens live and online, if you said 'ive played for 6 years and had a steady monthly wage' then i'd say it was rigged,cos it just doesn't work like that.

A pro once said you're not a true poker player until you've experienced the worst, 6 month wammy of downswing, and I believe it, as soon as you realise the true nature of the beast and the volitility of poker, you can't hope to be playing your best game at the felt.

FullTilt aren't dumb enough to have one over on their own pro's, all live players too, they wonj't be fooled when they take millions of dollars to the table. So ask ICALLSOWHAT, GUS HANSEN, KAIBUXXE, BRIAN TOWNSEND, TOM DWAN etc if they think it's rigged, cos theyve had bigger downswings than you'll ever see in your life.

Bottom line, you're either not getting a big enough edge on the game to break the rake, or your on a downswing and need to ride it out. Telling yourself these sites are rigged won't help you improve in the game, keep an open mind about how you play. Good luck all

buck22 on September 17, 2009

POKER ONLINES SO RIGGED, And ive won big tornys befor on these sites listed above with practically no hands , but there always!!!! always comes a point the next day when the cards i get are rigged!!! i get ten four 5 itmes in a row followed by 27 twice followed by poc 10 three times!!!! - this is just one war story , and all these hands hit nothing , i know its rigged people , where do i play now??? cake network???? bodog?? i just dont know

chronicace22 on September 17, 2009

IN my experience ABSOLUTE/ULTIMATE BET, POKER STARS, AND FULL TILT ARE ALL RIGGED SITES!! WHATS my next step someone please tell me where to play now, on these sites listed above the worst hand wins a mojority of thetime, and i get the same cards over and over

chronicace22 on September 17, 2009

I reckon there's a few rational reasons for your seemingly bad luck Ant8472, but don't blame you for thinking it's rigged, poker is f***ed!
1) Fulltilt and stars are renound 'tough' sites to play at, you may have an edge , but it will be alot less than playing on donkey sites.
2) You play multi-table tournys, variance is huge as you are essentially up against 100's of players in a game of small edges
3) It's gambling, anything CAN happen, I recently had a 2 month bad run where I lost $3900 probably over about 50,000 hands, I read that it is possible to run bad for 6 months so how ever bad ur lucks been so far, theres even bigger tidal waves to come! Get used to it.
4) Your style of play dictates how much variance is in your game. Playing a negreanu-style small ball where you're rarely all-in will help you survive better (which is better for tournys) but you will be sacrificing equity, whereas a Tom Dwan loose style has extremely good runs accompanied by terrible bad runs. Maybe you need to work at controlling pot sizes so you're not risking tournament life in marginal situations.
5)Poker is a game designed for players to lose, maybe your game needs a little more improvement so that your winnings cover these epic downswings in the long run. Hard to admit, but ill bet you anything that in a year, you'll look back and say 'wow, i really didnt have a clue'.




There's a misconception in the game that you can't lose for more than a few days or weeks but oh you can.

buck22 on September 13, 2009

I used to post here a while ago because of the extreme frustration and dissilusionment I felt playing at FT. I came to realise that ranting about it might help me vent some frustration in the short term but the only way around the problem was to vary the sites I play on and try and get onto the real felt as often as possible. Real cards cannot be rigged.

Anyway, about 2 weeks ago I came 8th in a $35,000 guarantee winning $735. I was very happy and for a short time it seemed all my luck on FT was changing. I was getting good cards and my good hands were holding up most of the time.

Some time after cashing in this tournament it all turned around and I started getting the extreme, constant horrific bad runs I was getting for months before.

As an example, just in this last week i've played about 25 multi table SNGs. Here is a description of the kind of luck I've been having.

I've had AA about 7 times and it has lost 5 times. Two of those times it was on a final table and in one hand an opponent had AQ (8% against AA). I've KK about 6 times and have lost with it 5 times.

Today I played in 8 games and was eliminated by a river card in about 6 of those games. Now here is the really strange phenomenon thats been happening lately. I've been getting beaten by runner runner straights regularly and I mean regularly. I've lost to a runner runner straight or a straight from a pre flop all in about a dozen times in about 20 tournaments I've played. Most of these were gut shots too! Now if I was also catching miracle straights as well I would think everything is right in the world but I haven't and I have caught up from behind in a hand only once in the last two weeks.

I have literally had about 10 bad beats just today and was eliminated from 6 of the 8 tourneys I played just today.

So I ask, WTF is going on with Full Tilt? I used to think it was my game and that maybe there was some critical I didn't understand about poker. Maybe the cards are meant to behave that way. But my game has improved exponentially in recent months and I now know I am not imagining this. The cards are unrealistic at FT. I used to be an advocate for theories of rigging and used to make my case on many sites on the net.

With the sort of luck I've been getting lately I think I am going to get back on that wagon.

Ant8472 on September 13, 2009

dont even bother trying to play at joker stars..... once your short stacked you are a dog no matter what you are holding to the bigger stacks on all ins in middle to late of the tourney..... so far im 0 for 21 with qq and kk vs any hand (havent run into aa)but i have lost to ak 7 times now... most recently qq vs ak and of course the case ace on river as usual... pstars is a joke....

I really wish there was more options for internet poker cuz jokerstars and full rigged are so f'n corrupt.....

billytk01 on September 10, 2009

One reason most internet players get caned .5/1 and above is cos they read supersystem and harrington, then play cabbages every day. Nothing wrong with that, table selection is very inportant in making money, but so is experience. I have a moto that I never turn down a challenge, simply because if Im better, i win money, if im worse, I learn why. The only way to improve your game and your concepts within the game is to play people better than you.

Players sit at my table, play 10 hands of weak poker then leave. They are weak BECAUSE they leave. Everynow and then it's important to play out your depth slighlty, cos if you dont , the inexperience will kick your ass, players are getting better all the time.

Full tilt has got plenty of donkeys, jus need to sniff em out, wicked site, if only the bastards would give me rake back id be there in a flash. Stars still rules!

buck22 on September 9, 2009

Why would anyone want to play with pros or a high percentage of good players for real money. It like you all are star struck. Im always searching for the worst players. If you want to make money Bodog is the site to be on. All those dummy sports betters get on there and get the game out of the muck fast.

jacktors on September 8, 2009

...

what odds on September 8, 2009

I hear you billy. I understand your KK frustration. One week I lost with kings all 6 times I got them, online and at the real felt. There were a few which I played too hard, but others which had similar outcomes as yours.

I had to step back and really look at how I played them pre-flop and post flop. The only mistake might have been in a tournament with a 10-7-4 board and a very solid player went all-in I called even with SET! SET! SET! in my head. Of course he had 4-4. Bad call. The other 5 I won't mention, too much pain......

As far as what you mentioned about big stack vs short stack...When I play dailies/weeklies/monthlies etc., I'll keep it in mind and pay attention. Right now at the micro level so many of the tournaments vary in field size. I do love the KO tournaments....I'll pay more attention to the big stack at each table I'm at.

But I've got to be honest, I am short stacked quite often once we get to ITM. I've been able to pick my spots. Many times I'll pick a spot that gives the most value if I'm under 10BB, no matter the cards. Instead of pushing on that ok, marginal hand, or hoping that I wake up with a monster (only to get felted by an inferior hand) before the BB hits me again, I'll pick a spot -if the opportunity comes up- when there are far too many in the hand. Of course these spots don't always materialize but if they do, if there is a raise, a call, a re-raise, call...when it gets to me its auto push. Getting at least 4-1, maybe more, at that stage of the tourny it's a no brainer. Like the 9-2 the other day. So perhaps subconsciously I'm avoiding the heads up with a bigger stack, but really I'm trying to find the most profitable situation. I'm either in great shape for the rest of the tourney of I'm done, but if I wait for another 10-20 hands maybe I move up the pay ladder a few more spots just to be felted heads up in a 2-1 situation.

kuelbreeze on September 1, 2009

ps... even poker stars is getting tiresome for me as well... no matter how tight i play, no matter what hand im holding, i get sucked out on way too much... its just the nature of online poker with full rigged and joker stars... kk on jokerstars = death... on jokerstars, in the last 12 hands that i have had with kk... 6 times all in preflop against lower pckt prs in which the set was hit, 2 times all in pre flop against ak and ace hits.. 4 times all in pre flop against ace rag and ace was hit.... this is the last 12 times in a row.. is this even possible (i mean it is possible but ridiculously improbable)...

it is so amazing, if you slow play a big hand you get consistantly crushed, if you push with big hand you get sucked out on, i never know where i am in any hand... its amazing how many rainbow, harmless boards that i hit hard and lose to runner runner... nothing is safe... the online sites are catering to the fish and luck box players... look at all the peeps that make final tables on the big sunday tourneys and what donks they are.. there roi's are usually always negative... its such a joke....

oh by the way.... just lost w/ kk vs qq on jokerstars all in preflop.... i was joking with my wife that i should just fold and she convinced me not to... hilarious, just hilarious.....

billytk01 on August 31, 2009

to kuelbreeze....

hey bro, the more u play online (namely full tilt) you will start to see patterns emerge.... as i said previously... its easy for a site like full tilt to show statistics that the cards are being dealt according to real world perentages... but you have to look very closely at specific instances such as... when a smaller stack is all in vs a larger stack.. what the % is pre-flop or post flop and at what point in the tourney is the allin... if its early it seems like the smaller stack when leading or dominant the hand holds up but when its late in the tourney its the opposite the big stack seems to consitantly suck out...

this is what brings me to my next point... how is that these weekly tourneys (750k sunday) starts and ends always roughly at the same time no matter how many players are registered.... its improbable that this can happen consistantly.... but it does....

the tourney that I won (chopped at final table/ i was 2nd in chips) at the borgata in atlantic city was a 2 day deep stack tourney but it lasted almost 3 days..... I played in another 3 day deep stack tourney and it was done in 2 1/2.. real tourneys have real time variances which seems to be missing in online tourneys... too conveinant/peculiar that they start and stop roughly at the same time consistantly...

like i said these are just a few examples of patterns, etc.....

i now have closed my account at full tilt for good. and play exclusively at poker stars.....

billytk01 on August 31, 2009

Yes and Yes.

I've met a few. The most significant I met online at a PL .10/.25 table at Pokerstars. About 2 or 3 months later I was playing at a local card room (1-2 NL) and ran into him, the only reason we ever found out who the other was is someone started talking about internet poker and he mentioned he played at Pokerstars. From our conversation we figured who the other was. His name was Pete (which is also part of his handle online) and he is very humble and unassuming, but a VERY solid player. I knew this playing with him online, and for sure after our 8 hour session together at the real felt.

I like to enjoy myself at the tables, online but especially the real tables. Online will never replace going to the real tables. Love the interaction and good times at the poker tables. I try talking at the online tables but you have to dodge what I call the "flamers" and "trolls" that populate the online tables: i.e., those that are mostly talk, will call anyone who beats them in a hand a donkey, whatever. Many of those, and countless others who are already legends in their own minds and will pretty much tell you so. When I see that someone is from Arizona I always try to chat them up. Or when I'm out of town I like to ask people who are local to find out where the good card rooms are, but so many at the micro level have never set foot in a real card room... But that's about the only way I actually meet anyone who plays online.

I asked Pete privately what his take was a month and he told me, but there is no way for me to verify this unless I asked him to show me on his account but that's silly, in my mind I don't have to because I've seen him play live and online.

Don't know if I answered your question. Honestly I'd suggest getting on there with 10 or 20 bucks (depending on the site, if you haven't already) and give 'er a whirl. All I can really speak about is my own experience, I've got money in 3 different sites only because I learned the hard way about the variance that comes with consistent time at the tables -online and off. I'm even giving juicy bodog a break, I got hit with runner runner quads twice in one day while playing Omaha and took a big hit, really hurt my little bankroll there because it sent me into Full Blown Monkey Tilt and I kept playing for about an hour.

I would show you mine, but I'd rather get a 18-24 months in to give a better picture. I am in the black but as I've said before it's nothing to brag about. This is my online experiment at a bargain price as I see it.

And since you appear to use www.officialpokerrankings.com or a similar site, as I do, I am kuelbreeze1 at Full Tilt. I just played a tournament last night, got 48th place and 4 bounties. Would have been in good shape chip wise with my all in JJ vs KQ but Q came on river. That's one thing I don't understand, is someone calling off over 75% of their chips to an all in bet with KQ, after hitting nothing on the flop, but it's their chips.....lol. If I were to play it again I might have value bet instead of pushed after the flop because the all in with a $2 bounty attached to it is a bit more enticing than a value bet... But as some would say.... "That's Full Rigged...."

kuelbreeze on August 31, 2009

kuelbreeze

Did u finish 3rd in a 6300 MTT tournament back in May 2009? Well done.

You know, what would change my mind once and for all, would be to meet some players IN PERSON who have played on Full Tilt and elsewhere and can --> show me that they have earned money over the years. Otherwise all I hear is ONLINE internet names/alleged players (who could be working for the poker sites spewing propaganda) say how they make money, or how the site is not fixed.

It's probably true that you and others are real people playing without the benefit of any affiliation with Full Tilt etc., but unless and until I talk to players in person, and they tell me and show me accounts information demosntrating what you so persuasively wrote below, I will remain skeptical.

So I am curious. Have you met in person players from Full Tilt etc. who have made real money playing at these sites? If so, how do you know what they told you is true?

nitemare6 on August 30, 2009

Wow. I've only had 30 minutes to read the posts, eventually if I have a few extra DAYS I might read this entire thread.... lol.

I made my first deposit at Full Tilt (50) about a month or so ago and I've enjoyed it. I made a deposit at Bodog about the same time and have found success at both sites. I love the Omaha Hi at Full Tilt and love the KO tournaments (bounties). With MTT's I'm only about 16% ITM with a small ROI right now, but I'm only playing micro limit buy-in's so I'd like to see the ITM rate a bit higher. 45 player sng's I run much better, as would anyone without such a huge field to fight through.

In the micro levels the action is not near as loose at Full Tilt as compared to Pokerstars and Bodog. Of course often times a loose table is great, but can get extremely frustrating when a loose player is running hot.

I do have to say one thing though. I don't have the time to properly analyze the RNG's at any of these sites. Perhaps if I played for more money I might. But I've seen so many bad beats over the years, when I lose a hand it really doesn't bother me. When someone makes a terrible play on me and hits runner runner, or pairs his kicker after going all in with middle or bottom pair I'm able to roll with it. These things happen all the time-online and at the real felt. Getting my money in with the best of it doesn't mean I'm entitled to that pot.

And no matter what site I play at, I hear it all the time when someone catches their miracle card on the river..."that's Jokerstars/Full Rigged/Bodog..." Yes, that's just poker. We see so many more hands playing online as opposed to playing live that of course we will see that many more bad beats. I might be playing 4 cash tables and 2 tournaments at once, maybe even at 2 different sites. Those that I know who have been successful at these sites don't seem to have these "rigged" issues that i'm not only hearing about here but also at the online tables.

As far as the big stack being favored, don't know about that either. But I know this, the big stack will be making many more crap calls in a tournament because he/she can afford it and has a chance to eliminate opponents with these "crap" calls. So naturally, at any site, we will see a disproportionate rate of scooped pots by the big stack, they are simply taking more chances with a wider range of starting hands.

Though I've played for many years I have not kept track of my sessions until I met and played every day with a 20+ year everyday player in Vegas. This has made a WORLD of difference. It's easier to see when I'm running bad in time to make adjustments, and also when I'm running good. Helps speed up fixing those leaks. And helps to eliminate the denial factor. I might blame a losing streak on bad luck. But when the results are right in front of my face it enables me to hopefully minimize losses and maximize winnings. Isn't that what it's all about?

I see no merit in blaming the software. If these sites are rigged I'll be glad to eat my words. But I've been at a real table and seen a woman get pocket aces 3 times in a row. I've personally gotten pocket Kings 3 times in a row, and gotten Pocket aces and kings back to back to back to back. At real tables. I'd suggest not playing online if the experience is so terrible and traumatic.

kuelbreeze on August 29, 2009

Also, there is NO doubt that Full Rigged tilt favorts large stacks versus small stacks late in the tournaments. Absolutely no doubt.

nitemare6 on August 11, 2009

congrat billyk

ANy decent-good player has a much better chance playing live poker to not only win once in a while, but to actually enjoy losing -- unlike Full Rigged Tilt' poker site -- where, in the back of your mind (at least for many of us) we fear that we are not being dealt from a truly random deck of cards, and that really good and strategic poker, good position play, knowledge of odds, EV, etc. etc. and many other aspect of good-great poker (not to mention experience) will be nullified by Full Tilt's skewed dealing systems.

nitemare6 on August 11, 2009

i just won a borgata tourney in Atlantic City during the summer poker open.. It felt good to see how real poker is played and finally see the cards hold up in accordance to statistics... i felt in control and got my money in usually well ahead... anyways, i got more of the poker itch and i recently reopened my ft account to see if anything has changed on the site since being off for over 4 months... but alas its still rigged as it ever was.... lost on the most unbelievable 1 and 2 outers... lost on incredible runner runners.... improbable hand set ups (hand after hand)... I could post the hands history but its just alot more reading than is necessary.. I found myself folding hands that I never would in any live tourney... I was in a $220+ satellite to get into the 1k monday, and there was 3 peeps left... I was in bb w/ ak (suited diamonds).. anyway chip leader pushes in for 6k and I had 3500k ( i folded)... now most of you will say bad play, but..... I have had this scenario over 100 times where i had ak or medium pckt pr against the chip leaders all in (in which i was favored) and ive lost all of them.. its the pattern of ft, favor the big stack.. so i was doing everything i could to avoid going against the big stack especially since i had more chips then the 3rd player... now i just played another 200 buyin satellite and lost to bigger stack after pushing with top pr and big stack holding bottom pr of 3's and then hit his lone 6 on river to beat me with 2 pr... now the skeptics will say thats just poker.. in which i agree it is jsut poker... but its not poker when it happens all the f'in time...

some people and full tilt argue that the software is not rigged, etc.. and that the hands hold true to real poker statisics, but its easy to skew the mass data.. what people need to look at it is the situations of the event.. example... we need to keep track of all ins between bigger stacks and smaller stacks when the small stack has the bigger stack dominated/ or ahead at time of pre-flop or flop... it is my belief that you will see that the bigger stack wins more than usual in these situations... I really wish someone would track these situations... i really believe it will expose full rigged for what it is....

billytk01 on August 10, 2009

Played in $1 tournament on Friday - 9400 players

Finished 480 - ITM.

Made bad play after I hit a straight on the river but card was suited to 2 other board cards. I pushed all in which in hindsight was a bonehead play since other guy either folds or beats me with flush. I knew he was in hand for some reason - DUH.

No need to push at that point.

nitemare6 on August 4, 2009

Just for the record - he didn't beat me with the trips on the turn - his third nine made the straight for my pocket tens - he beat with the quads on the river - I know that does not change your opinion - but thought it ought to be at least accurate

eldave1 on July 31, 2009

One more thing:

Aussie

Aussie

Aussie

nitemare6 on July 31, 2009

I must agree with some recent comments. I am going to put more money on some other sites, and go in with an open mind.

I played in a $1 -$10K tournament and was 200/8600 before getting sucked out (my set of 4s beaten by runner runner runner straight)on a hand that I have no idea why I was called since "donk" was risking 1/3 of his chips with only 200 players left-- of course he was the chip leader at table so maybe not a total donk. I thought he was sucked in by my quasi-slo-play after hitting the 4 on the flop; only he must have "known" that FTP would deal him 3 runners to his crap-backdoor-drawing-hand to produce a winning straight. But maybe it was just "poker".

Online poker that is - lol

Anyway, being that I play good poker (i think) and have played for over 20 years long before the recent hysteria over Holdem and WPT/WSOP, I should try to play higher stakes and try other sites. So (mates), I will report back in a few months after I invest a few thousand and see what happens in higher games and tournaments.

Meanwhile I am going to play my FTP $1 -$10,000 tournament tonight --- see if I can't finish in top 9. It's actually better competition once you get down to 200-300 players

nitemare6 on July 31, 2009

Thankyou Eldave! You've given the last piece of evidence I need to be 100% that Full Tilt has a perfectly working RNG. I came on this site over a year ago expecting to build my reassurance that Full Tilt is rigged, and it has done quite the opposite. You look at every posted hand on here and theres weeks and even months in between them, which is how often horrific awful bad runs happen. Eldave your last post was 2 months ago, spose you've kept all those bad streaks in between to yourself huh?

I love stars, my stats have balanced nicely in the 6-8bb/100 and 27%ROI over 100,000's of hands but in the last 3 days i've had a streak of colddecks and badbeats thats worst than this whole thread put together, you just wouldn't believe it, dropped $1.5k, BUT THIS JUST HAPPENS!! It happened last week aswell, dropped about $600, horrible run this last fortnight but screaming rigged isn't only thick, it doesn't benefit anyone, it just tilts you and makes you play badly. Eldave, your example of him catching lucky trips on turn and taking you to the cleaners has happened to me 6!!!!!!times in 3 days, along with about 8 monster under monster and around 5 bad beats, now thats something to write home about. But when i look at my stats, all is in order.

The problem with this thread is it's made up of:
1. Poor players that can't assess true odds
2. Multitable tournament players that dont realise they arent going to see a big win for a while cos the variance is humungous, you'd have to survive soooo many spins to get in the top 3 places, meanwhile, guess what knocks you out.....BAD BEATS!!!! Not unlucky, inevitable!
3. By the bookers- players that read supersystem like every other poker player on the planet and wonder why their stats are low.
4. People who don't appreciate the true nature of variance, all streaks baby!

Or a combination of the above. Start another thread called ' Todays colddecks and badbeats' but continuing this bull about it being rigged is just ridiculous. You'll never improve if you always have the site to blame.

buck22 on July 30, 2009

For posterity sakes - wanted to post my last full tilt hand on the net - it is so indicative of why I will not deposit another dollar on this site. As the turn hits I think - man I hope he Ace-9 or even pocket nines cause there is no way I am losing this hand - wrong. What a foking joke of a site


Full Tilt Poker Game #13714811819: $10,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (101125059), Table 87 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:42:08 ET - 2009/07/30
Seat 1: I got that Beat (5,435)
Seat 2: donkeysur (9,105)
Seat 3: eldave1 (13,220)
Seat 4: cosmo kramer 0 (2,260)
Seat 5: nc1976 (7,410)
Seat 6: NapalmOma (3,470)
cosmo kramer 0 posts the small blind of 50
nc1976 posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ts Td]
NapalmOma folds
I got that Beat folds
donkeysur raises to 350
eldave1 calls 350
cosmo kramer 0 folds
nc1976 calls 250
*** FLOP *** [7s 8d 6h]
nc1976 checks
donkeysur bets 1,100
eldave1 calls 1,100
nc1976 folds
*** TURN *** [7s 8d 6h] [9s]
I got that Beat adds 2,000
donkeysur bets 1,400
NapalmOma adds 2,000
eldave1 raises to 2,800
nc1976 adds 2,000
donkeysur calls 1,400
*** RIVER *** [7s 8d 6h 9s] [9h]
donkeysur has 15 seconds left to act
donkeysur bets 4,855, and is all in
eldave1 calls 4,855
*** SHOW DOWN ***
donkeysur shows [9d 9c] four of a kind, Nines
eldave1 mucks
donkeysur wins the pot (18,610) with four of a kind, Nines
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 18,610 | Rake 0
Board: [7s 8d 6h 9s 9h]
Seat 1: I got that Beat didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: donkeysur showed [9d 9c] and won (18,610) with four of a kind, Nines
Seat 3: eldave1 (button) mucked [Ts Td] - a straight, Ten high
Seat 4: cosmo kramer 0 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: nc1976 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: NapalmOma didn't bet (folded)

eldave1 on July 30, 2009

...

what odds on July 24, 2009

I'm in the same spot as Buck. I don't even know what you're talking about, there is literally something that is telling you that me and Buck are here 24/7, or are we just here a lot when you check who is viewing the thread? Using your common sense do you think me and Buck are viewing this thread 24 hours a day? I don't know how to check any of that but I'd be willing to bet that neither of us are viewing this 24 hours a day. As far as the FTP thing goes I'm not even going to honor that with a response. If you think FTP would pay money for people to respond to a thread in which 90% of the people are idiots, playing penny games ,crying about beats that aren't even close to bad, you must be crazy. I really don't think calling us out on this was necessary, I think you know that we don't view this stupid thing 24/7 and you also know FTP doesn't pay us for this dumb crap. Either way I guess I should retire from this thread so I'm not accused of being a FTP spy yet another time...

VA Poker on July 24, 2009

I have no idea, im round my mates for the week so i guess that means i left my computer on, either that or when the site just leaves us logged on.

buck22 on July 24, 2009

...

what odds on July 24, 2009

Nightmare,people don't think better than other people, they have different ways of thinking on subjects. You could be Albert Einstien but doesn't mean you've got a clue when it comes to poker. IF ftp is rigged, then the arguements and hands you put forward don't even point out a problem, let alone actual evidence. What is important is WHEN the money goes in, if it goes preflop, the board could come out AcKcQcJc10c because its the same odds as 2c6hJdJs8h. You proved that the favourite won in your last post ffs.

Theres 99 reasons to every 1 for losing money at poker so if you cant see why people are offering other explanations, maybe your judgement could be slightly clouded. No.1 Stop playing on this site, ive told everyone that i got stats on stars that hold up, move sight. Spend 6 months playing stars but id put a tenner on that you have the same problem there too.

However ive just picked up my biggest donkey 2009 award for drinking beer then sinking £150 on red chasing £10, 4 blacks in a row!!! RIGGEDDDDDD RIGGGGGGGGGGGEDDDD!!!! Man what a tw*t I really am, had to bank out $300 of my bankroll to cover it, just had to let it out, tw*t tw*t tw*t TW*T!!! but nightmare u still suck lol

buck22 on July 23, 2009

...

what odds on July 23, 2009

nightmare

Since you called me out by name for no apparent reason I guess I'll attemp a response. I defend FTP because almost every argument I see on here for it being rigged makes no sense. You just literally posted a hand in which you went all in with 4 5 before the flop, got two callers, and lost. What the hell is supposed to happen when you go all in before the flop with 5 high and get 2 callers? You also try to demean your opponents by talking very disrespectfully about their play. If you want better opponents, play a higher game. You just bragged about how you are a big trial lawyer and therefore a better thinker than anyone here. You don't have money to play a game more than 60 cents?I know, Iknow its rigged thats why you don't play higher,right? Better yet, why not just go to one of 1,000 other online sites and play there? You like playing FTP because when you lose you can tell yourself its fixed, and you have an excuse as to why you are playing a .60c game. With all the personal attacks and childish name calling you have thrown around on this forum I highly doubt you are actually a trial lawyer. However, if you are, you might know something about the burden of proof. The burden is on you for making this claim against FTP and you have not shown anything close to proof.

VA Poker on July 23, 2009

Keep playing on this scam site; I don't really care.

There is little doubt its rigged. IF the guy with AQ (who made a crap call + a crap all in bet) got a Q or A then - ok. But after flop I was ahead.

In real games it is likely I might have held up, but ore importantly no guy would have called an ALL IN with AQ AFTER that flop (since he had -0-) that is ZERO = NOTHING. And the guy with a pair of 3s. What the F was he doing in the hand calling an ALL IN in the 1st place with no pair adn no real draw?@!

IF the guy with AQ caught an A or Q, maybe that would make some sense as "that's poker". But they (full rigged scum) deal him two (2) runners to give him a straight. There are more straights and flushes on Full Tilt in two (2) hours then in a live game over 2 days.

This hand I posted shows how this scam site seeks to enhance rakes.

You know on this forum -- we never address the real issues on Full Rigged Tilt; which is that they program hands for rakes. Instead guys ruminate and try to find rationalzations about how this could or might happen in live games with a real deck, and how this is not rigged ealing but coincidence etc. etc. That is BS.

I have been a trial lawyer for over 20 years; it is highly likely I think better than most on this forum. You don't need proof beyond all doubt or to some infinite mathematical level to establish that this "poker" site is not really dealing real random hands that in some shape or form at lease sort of match the REAL odds and REAL probabilities in real games.

Anecdotal and circumstantial evidence is strong enpough (for me ) on this scam site over 4-5 years, to prove to me that it is rigged. It quacks like a duck and walks like a duck. Then it is a duck most of the time.

LOL --- what are some of you guys going to say when someday there is an expose' on this rigged poker site???!!

I bet some of you will still defend these clowns becasue there are some people in life that just don't GET IT.

Polllyanna and naive.

Those people you can never show them the way or convince them otherwise. They are just low-level thinkers and stubborn minds who object for the sake of their egos.

Look at VA Poker. The guy says he never played much on F-rigged-T (in a recent post) but here he ---is defending them -- it's laughable -- LOL

nitemare6 on July 23, 2009

...

what odds on July 23, 2009

So you pushed all in (not bad at all with only 4.5 BB left) with suited cons, and got 2 others all in , AQ and 33.

45s= 32%
33 = 26%
AQ = 42%

You're calling a site laughable because the fave, middle, and dog actually won in the right order? This thread is getting beyond weak, these examples are meaningless, this in particular doesn't even make sense cos the best hand won. Theres a leak in your game or you havent given enough time for the variance of multitable tournys to balance out,l i seriously think it's the former if you can't anylise a basic multiway all-in properly. Maybe im missing the point and this is where players just like to vent their tilt, if so, sorry, and carry on. But im only getting more convinced FT is straight.

buck22 on July 22, 2009

OK...

so tonight I play a .60 tournament - lol

I am down to 1/2 buy in - dealt 45 suited - Button raises 4.5 times BB and oen caller. I go all in with 45s (500 chips ) to just see how the hand is dealt. Both players call. So flop comes 4710 rainbow

Button bets ALL IN (1900) and other donk callls him (he probably wanted to go head-up against me) -

so the donk who called has 3s and the ALL IN donk has AQ (in other words he has --->squat)

BUT - this is full rigged tilt, so let's see what happens. Will my 4s hold up?

Turn is a J

Guess what river is?? ---> The FULL of crap Rigged tilt K - so guys hits a straight, and I lose.

Total B.S. "poker" site - laughable

nitemare6 on July 22, 2009

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting Whatodds would play out a hand like this in theory, but believe someone multitabling up to 9 tables could easily make this mistake and believe it was down to bad luck. If someones not getting TPTK to the river EVER, this suggests the opponents in these games are folding dominated hands on turn and river, and only calling/raising when outdrawing it, this would appear like TPTK just doesn't stand up.

SNG's are so soft that playing strong hands in position, ABC poker, beats the game sufficiently, hitting TPTK can easily stack an opponent with top pair. The play is loose and passive so AK is the nuts! However my experience with cash games, even micro, are that because the blinds are so small, most players sit and wait for big hands, as Dan Harrington put it, the tight-aggressive style is very tough to beat, even if its an amateur utilising it. SNG's are profitable in robot mode, but the cash games take a level of mixing up your game to trick your opponents. I can't remember the last time I felted a player with TPTK because in tight games, this hand either wins a small pot or loses a big pot. Personally they win some small pots until your suited-conectors or pocket pairs hit the flop hard, then taking AA,KK, and TPTK to value town, because at micro stakes players dont wait 1/2hour just to fold AK when an ace flops. I really think since considering TPTK as a small pot hand (unless check-call 3 streets or SNG), my stats have improved.

Ive just finished reading Harrington on Cash Games vol 1&2, great books, and a section really improved my game. So simple 'small hand,small pot. Big hand, big pot'. Well duh! Thats poker! But theres 2 advantages to keeping TPTK pots small, 1, opponents that outdraw you cant bet as much on the river, and 2, it can induce a bluff from a hand that wouldve folded or get your river value bet called by a weaker hand. Sorry for waffling but the point I am making is that the over-valueing of TPTK and overpairs is where most players fall, this is what I look for in my opponents.

We should start another thread on strategy, think this FullTilt one has had it.

buck22 on July 21, 2009

I guess I missed your point a little bit Buck. I didn't realize you were saying the micro guys on FTP might be able to lay down the middle pair after the turn. I thought you were just giving an example about how things would play out anywhere in a micro game. So, if your theory is right, it is possible that it negatively impacted whatodds win rate. I know exactly what you mean about moving down. I usually play NL200 but after a horrible run a few months ago I played NL50 for about 2 weeks. Thats how I know that a very basic style of waiting for good hands and getting max value out of them works well. You can't bluff them, so getting way more value than you should with hands like top pair is the only way to get your edge. Thats why I said I thought the player with middle pair in the previous example would have called down all the way whether or not he improved. I saw that so many times at NL50, I promise there were even times when a never improved AK called me down on three streets.

Sorry whatodds I don't play on FTP anymore and never kept any HH when I did so I can't really help with that TPTK thing. I see how it is very significant though. As we've both said being a profitable low stakes player basically relies on your ability to get value out of calling stations. Considering the fact that so many guys at that level call down 3 streets with less than TPTK it seems like you'd have definitely ran across it somewhere in a 50k sample. Maybe Buck had a point that some of the FT micro guys are not as big of calling stations as micro players elsewhere. However, I don't see how this could have never happened in 50K hands. Kind of strange I'll admit.

VA Poker on July 21, 2009

...

what odds on July 21, 2009

Tis a wise theory VA, confidence plays an almighty part of poker. In my previous example, I was singeling out a certain type of player that I've encountered alot on FT, they WILL call a flop bet (because most players today have read super system) with middle pair, but throw it away under turn pressure. The example wasn't meant to be a random $5 player, just seems FT has some slightly wised up fish.

Most other sites low stakes games are players who get dominated by a 'continuation bet'/'balance a few bluffs in' supersystem style play that is the basics of poker. The fold equity is huge, and when they catch a hand, it sticks out like a saw thumb. It's great, low variance! But FT has alot more aggresive players and alot more small-ball players testing the water which even though it seems like bad play, is actually losing less than the fore-mentioned players at other sites.

I think I mentioned in a previous post that after grindin a role up, i had to bank out for bills. Was so used to the higher games that when i started again from $200, it was a freakin nightmare! And this was on stars! Took me so long to get it going, and amount of bad beats was excruciating!! If you compared my play then to the last two months, sooooo much more discipline now, cos im not tilted 24/7 from badbeats and robotic ABC games, I definatley blame my bad runs on FT on this, i'd play brilliantly, it'd grind me down, then id make mistakes and blame it on bad players/beats.

Anyway, the biggest cash cow on low stake games is SNG's short-handed. Even the crap cash game players know they have to wait for a decent hand to get their money in, but in low/medium stake SNG's, anyone that has a copy of 'Harrington on tournys' can inhialate these games. There's a guy I play with on some high stake SNG's that is up $60,000 and i swear, he just sits there and waits for AA,KK,QQ,AK, it's so sick that this basic style is crushing pretty high buyin tournys, seriously, the SNG players are ridiculously soft compared to cash.I recommend.

But VA has a major point about your confidence on FT, good to hear you're done with it for that reason. As for multi-tabling, when I started grinding on stars in January, I broke even for 150 games playing 2x$10 SNG, I did the necessary 'rigged!' post, but I see alot of players not doing well cos they're multitabling to the extreme and losing quite an edge to it, me being one of them. I know your up on every other site but thought it might be useful info. Good luck grinding a new role! I recommend stars!

buck22 on July 20, 2009

Even though I agree with Buck22 about the RNG, I think whatodds might be right about the example. In that example you are kind of assuming that the guy who flopped middle pair is pretty good and the guy who flopped TPTK is not. In reality, if the better player flopped TPTK he would almost certainly be able to get away from it after the river raise. Also, if the guy who flopped MP is just your average micro calling station, he is not only calling the turn but the river as well even if he misses, he still has a pair after all, they don't fold pairs often. Playing at those stakes is basically a balancing act of getting great value with things like top pair, while being smart enough not to stack off to the guy who caught his second pair on the river. That way you ruin their implied odds which are telling them they can take your whole stack if they hit. As whatodds said, its usually pretty easy to tell when they hit. If you bet into the average micro guy after the river with him holding 2nd or 3rd pair you are getting called, if that guy happened to hit 2 pair on the river, you are getting raised. Thats why betting TPTK for a third time after the river is profitable in micro and is def. not at all profitable in bigger games. Obv there are certain guys who might make the raise on the river with a busted draw or something, but if a guy has that in his arsenal you will find out soon enough. This is why micro games are easily beatable with an ABC, TAG style of just waiting for big hands and maxing the value you get from them. Also, if he's had success at all the other sites on micro levels im sure he knows how donks play and how to beat them. If I had to take a guess at why he wasn't successful at FTP (assuming the RNG isnt rigged) I would say its mental. IMO no player can ever win at anything that they just KNOW they are going to lose at. That goes for everything not just poker. So if whatodds went into these 50k hands knowing he was going to be cheated and lose, he was destined to lose IMO which is why I've repeatedly told him he's crazy for playing there if he thinks its rigged.

VA Poker on July 20, 2009

...

what odds on July 20, 2009

Still find the whole reasoning for rigging their RNG hard to swallow, must be quite a large number of people that would return to fulltilt if they had another trusted third party audit and assessed their RNG, maybe a we could put together a pertition. It sucks cos my bankrolls gettin quite hefty and FT seems the only place to move up in the game.

To talk strategy, do you think 9-tabling was partly a factor in your loss in 50k hands? Because what was ABC poker 10 years ago isnt the same ABC as today, the latest poker books are making the old books obsilete. One major difference I saw on FT last time I played was the small ball,passive-aggressive style most of the players employ. Yes, there's alot of donkeys moving in with Qhigh only to spike it on the river, its $5, but I wonder whether theres a reason your strategy doesn't balance on this site. The problem with playing 9 tables against alot of passive-aggressive players is ABC poker will be torn apart(or break even, minus rake) by reverse-implied odds. Just to clarify, reverse implied odds are when your coninuation in the pot will either win a small pot or lose a huge pot. Here's an example:

Nl cash 2c/5c, you raise AK to 15c, button calls everyone folds. Flop come down A 3 10, you raise 22c, opponent calls. Turn is a 9. You raise 50c, opponent calls. River is a 4. You bet 50c, opponent reraises to $1.80, you call. Opponent shows 910 and takes $5.41
Now to break this down, we'll assume your opponent will fold if misses on the turn. His outs are about 17% with one draw.This means when you:

WIN
0.83 x 22c = +18.26c

LOSE
0.17 x -255c = -43.35c
_______
EV = -25.09c

At a single 50c/$1 table, for a good player this river bet should be an easy fold. You would think 'this players only been showing down atleast 2pair, TPTK doesn't look so big by the river, and I dont want to make a huge mistake' muck. But I defy anyone playing 9 tables of $5 to make this fold, everyone may say they would, but realisticly, your gonna look them up in the assumption that these inexperienced players are playing too many weak hands and bluffing too much. In a SNG, you probably would have +EV playing this hand because his implied odds are worsened by the short stack, but in 100BB cash games, the advantage is with your opponent.

We aren't gonna know if FT is rigges, but if i had to put my money on what's going on, I'd bet that alot of players are getting in situations like this in small stake games, and not realising that there strategy is a dog to this sites style and rake. The fact is, I used to write on forums saying that pokerstars was rigged, I didn't know how to really evaluate hands, and just assumed that I was getting really unlucky, could have sworn I was a favourite, but looking back, I had some leaks in my game when I shifted my roll from soft Pacific to tough stars and FT games. Today I swear by the site, but leaves me wondering whether these conspiracy theory's are just bollox.

buck22 on July 20, 2009

I don't have too much experience with FTP. I deposited a few buy ins and played some NL200 there for almost a month. I pretty much only did this because of this thread. I was up a good bit for awhile but when on a terrible run (mostly due to poor play) and lost everything. I personally like their site but didn't like the competition too much. I have a really agressive style and sometimes clash with the ultra agressive eastern/northern european style that dominates Full Tilt. It's the type of competiton that you can make the perfect read and the perfect bluff only to have your opponent make a horrible call and have his basically nothing beat your bluff. Playing against this type of competition straightforward and concentrating on getting max value on big hands instead of bluffing too much is def. the way to play but I just didn't switch my style well enough. Also, I found myself with this little voice in the back of my head everytime I took a bad beat saying "what if they are right" lol. I didn't start to believe or anything but just that little voice kept me from playing there anymore, that is how I know playing there must suck for you, you have a voice yelling at you lol. Honestly, I didn't keep any stats or anything but just from what I saw in a small 10-20k sample I didn't see anything that looked to weird, or a string of things that didn't look right. I'm not saying this validates my point at all I just didn't see much.

Obviously my results there don't compare well to my results on other sites. I've been a winning player for awhile, I usually go back and forth between PlayersOnly and Pokerstars. Playersonly is on cake so you might be familiar with it. I like playing there a lot better because I feel the competition is softer but Stars has such high volume and great tournaments I always keep an open account. As far as the whole FTP thing I wouldn't take much stock in my results I played horribly and tilted off about 3k in a week my last week there and I certainly can't blame that on FTP. However, if getting people not to play there is what you're after, you've accomplished that with me. Your arguments have put the slightest bit of reasonable doubt in my mind about the validity of full tilt, therefore I'd rather put my money on the line elsewhere. I'm not converting or anything but I have to admit that. For that reason, I'm sure you can see why you playing there is incomprehensible to me. If it bothered me and I don't even t hink you are right, I'm sure it just killed you. But hey, if it IS rigged and you've kept me from playing there I guess I owe you one. Sadly, I don't think we'll ever know.

VA Poker on July 20, 2009

...

what odds on July 20, 2009

My point wasn't only that you aren't going to change the minds of people who think differently, although that was a big part of it. My point is also that 90% of people here already think its rigged; and when most of them post, its obvious they don't have a clue what they are talking about. You can look back on this very thread. I counted atleast 3 times in which players were complaining about bad beats when the money went all in pre flop 50/50. The best example is a guy who posted about how his set of 9's got beat by a runner runner straight with his opponent holding AQ. Then he posted the hand history and all the money was in before the flop!!!Thats a sick way to lose but certainly nothing even coming close to anything resembling a bad beat. Yet, this player thought that to be proof of that FTP is "rigged". So my point was that I dont see why you would waste your time and money to be the leader for all these people who don't know what they are talking about. It happens time and time again. You'll make a well thought out post with some good points about why you think its rigged only for some guy who has no clue to come and say "yheah yeah you are exactly right, i know its rigged because my JJ just lost to A9". I'm not saying its only people who don't know what they are talking about who think its rigged but there are certainly a lot of people like that out there and If I was you I wouldn't waste my time or money just so they can feel vindicated. If you feel you've proved it to yourself then its been proven, move on and play somewhere you win money and have fun.

VA Poker on July 19, 2009

...

what odds on July 19, 2009

whatodds,
If you are winning on every other site and losing on FTP why did you just play 50k hands there? I'm not saying I don't believe you because I do but the whole thing is just mind boggling to me. If I thought there was a site I couldn't win on for any reason, especially a reason like you have with full tilt, I would never play there again. Why waste your time losing if you know you can win elsewhere. Unless you are playing 10 tables at once 50k hands is 100's of hours of play. It just seems that you are trying to prove something at your own detriment. How much money would you be willing to lose to convince everyone on this forum FTP is rigged? 90% of people on here already agree with you anyway and half of them don't even make any sense when they post. Is giving them the satisfaction of some kind of "proof", or changing the mind of someone like me who thinks its legit, going to make it all worthwhile? Even if FTP is rigging their online poker, there are bigger atrocities in the world. Poker is something we all enjoy and some of us make a profit with, and I'm sure both of those things apply to you when you play at other sites and neither apply when playing at FTP. I can't imagine it's a lick of fun for you and I know you aren't winning any money. Purely for your own sake I plead for you to you stop your crusade. Let someone else fight the good fight and go against FTP and go back to enjoying poker and winning money on a site you feel comfortable with. I might have even played at some you haven't and be able to suggest a good site for you.

VA Poker on July 19, 2009

FullTilt is RIGGED poker. These guys are slime balls and theey have a good scam having "pros" recommend ths site. Frankly these guys are a disgrace. I am 110% positve that other poker pros who are NOT on Full Tilt know that Full Tilt is a scam and not random.

Total rigged poker.

I have not played any cash games there since January, and withdrew all but a few dollars to waste on their rigged DOLLAR $1 tournmnament.

nitemare6 on July 18, 2009

...

what odds on July 18, 2009

What Odds.... i think you are right on with your statemants... i know the "dread feeling" that was mentioned earler in the posts when playing on this site. Way too many betting hands lose to tards that have no business even being in the hand. And like you said, its the coolers that kill you.... mix them with a few bad beats and your EV plummets... not to mention your confidence.
As any good poker player knows, its all about finding the donk(s) and fish at the table and exploiting them. That is how a good player wins, but this is almost always impossible at FTP because the donk that plays ATC and has the highest VPIP % seems to be the guy who will inevidibly take you out no matter how patient you are and how good you get your money in.... it really seems as if there are FTP shill players.
Even in heads up play, the decisions that you are required to make are enough to wear down even the most gifted statistics wiz.
Hint: if you see a retard playing shit hands and getting lucky.... DONT TRY TO BUST HIM.... he WILL felt you>>>> EVERY TIME....bets bet is to just stay away from him.... and FTP in general for that matter.

crashbah on July 18, 2009

FTP makes you question what really is poker. I've never had so many bad beats in my life. I am not the best player by any means, but I am out in front when I get my money in most of the time, yet I lose at least half of these all ins.

Some insane beats: AA vs. 66 vs. 66 three way all in preflop--lost to a straight (I've never had any hand like that before live or online, yet I lost despte a high 90s win probability). Another way that I got busted out on: AJ vs. A9 with the board 6JJ. The guy hits a flush on runner runner hearts.

Even worse is that they have these shills that I assume get paid by FT on the forums that will attack you for being a retard who can't play poker when you question the fairness of the script.

There is no way in real life all these bad beats happen all the time.

FTP rigs the script to build up action. --- EDIT: Just won an all in with JJ vs. A8. The flop came AJ6 and I checked; the other guy bet and I reraised him, and he reraised me. No suckout, which is the first one for me tonight. Had lost my only other all in tonight... it was a 3 outter bad beat. Par for the course I guess. Once I get all my bonus cleared, I am outta there. Such a BS site.

ps2alumnus on July 17, 2009

...

what odds on July 17, 2009

If you want to prove it to yourself and be 100% certain of this, switch to stars for 50,000 hands and see what your results are. As i've said in previous posts I'm 100% stars is straight and got about 110k hands data to prove it. The problem is that you need a sample of hands from a gauranteed legitimate site so you can be sure it's not your play. Poker relieves millions of players of their money everyday, not because they're stupid, but because most players think they are playing better than guys sitting at their table, theres a cruel deception. To know if you're a good player you've got to have stats showing +EV over many hands, it's the ONLY way of knowing. So seeing as you only have stats for FullTIlt, i'd suggest racking up 50,000 hands on stars, then you can be sure to yourself that it is the sites RNG, and not a leak in your game.

Personally I think you have your head screwed on with poker, and i'm not doubting your play for one minute, but YOU can't be sure until you have 2 sets of stats that look very different or very similar, hopefully the former.

Just to throw an idea out there, I profit well playing the medium stakes im grinding at the moment but do find it hard when I play micro-stakes because I find a level of boredom kicks. It doesn't feel like real poker, theres no respect, and I swear this subconsiously makes me play slightly worse as my results in micro are pretty dia, even though the players are worse. This could be a factor.

buck22 on July 17, 2009

...

what odds on July 16, 2009

...

what odds on July 16, 2009

It's RIGGED "poker"

There isn't any doubt!

nitemare6 on July 16, 2009

...

what odds on July 16, 2009

Ive been writin a few posts about my certainty that stars isn't rigged, got loads of stats and hands, and it all adds up fine. Don't know why, I put $50 on FT just to see if i could grind it to some amount, 120 $2 sitngo's and im up $8 lol. One thing I really noticed though was that I have an irrational gut feeling of dread when playing this site, like a phobia. I sweat $2 tourny's cos I feel like this hand is almost certainly a bad beat or cold deck. I play up to $150 a game on stars and dont batter an eyelid when I get in a good situation, if im all in as a 2 to 1 fave, i lie back and think, 'great bet I made', on FullTilt, I just know im gonna lose, It's crazy!

Im not saying i think its rigged, but my past experience on this site brings a rush of dread whenever im involved in a big pot with a seemingly good hand, so strange.

buck22 on July 16, 2009

...

what odds on July 16, 2009

...

what odds on July 16, 2009

...

what odds on July 15, 2009

I don't think that was his name. Think his name was "Retarded Donk"

lol

nitemare6 on July 8, 2009

Nightmare, I know you were pissed off when you wrote that but it's pretty harsh to call someone a retarded donk for calling your raise.

When you think about it, you went all in on a pair of 10s, which is the highest pair post-flop but it's hardly something you should go all-in on...

I would usually treat such a raise as an automatic fold but if I felt a person was liable to be bluffing then I would meet them.

So if it was me that met you and won all of your chips last night then I am not sorry, I probably felt I had a decent number of outs and you were bluffing.

With regards to FT being bullshit, it appears to be the case for all online sites. When I first signed up to PartyPoker and Full Tilt I did so well... I had all the best cards when I needed them and it seemed like the poker God's were on my side :P but then the bad cards and ridiculous bad beats arise (just after I place 5th in a tourney and I'm in the money). Also, whenever I make a deposit I start winning again...

So yea I am getting my money back asap. Btw, was the name of the person who beat you last night Fishwins?

Fishwins on July 7, 2009

ok - i plaeyd my DOLLAR tournament tonight - just now -

5th hand:

I have 10Jos in late pos.-- raise 4X BB - 3 callers -- flop is 10 3 7.

Guy in this hand was in an earlier hand with me abd chased a four flush to my KQ (with a Q on flop) and with 3rd suited he went all in, and I folded . So I say "no chasing four flushes Craig" and I bet all in = 2600chips. Maybe a little tilt. But both donks call me. No rasing, they call. Just like typical donks do.

River is A.

So, I have J10 - 2nd player has J10 also

BUT............. the retarded donk who called the ALL IN bet myself and another guy were all had (drumroll)

---------> AQ

In other words he called two ALL INs with NO hand. ZILCH.

However this garbage excuse for a poker site delivers him a 3 outer on the river. Please, explain how anyoen can call with 2 players ALL IN and he has absolutely nothing. No pair! Nothing. Just an A with high kicker.

The ONLY card that would help him ---->this garbage scam retarded bingo poker site gives him after he makes a call that NOBODY in the world, who knows how to play poker, would make in thsoe circumstances unless they were totally retarded or drunk.

nitemare6 on July 6, 2009

Titan poker does not accept US players....

crashbah on July 6, 2009

as soon as i can get my $$$ out of FTP i will try Titan

crashbah on July 5, 2009

Crashbah

I started posting on this site on page 21. You appear to share my experience, that the long-term odds never play out on FTP. I have played there for the last time, thankfully. I now play at Titan Poker - real, casino-like poker, with the odds being represented in the hands you play, and the opportunity to win well if you play well.

That was always what hurt at FTP. I know my game, and I know that it's profitable, but I JUST COULD NOT WIN. Suck-out after suck-out, for months. I thought I was running bad, that it would come good in the end, but it never did. Finally, I figured it out, put in the words full-tilt-rigged into Google, and hey presto, like you I am here.

Tonight, bought in for $50 at Titan (.50, $1). Three hours later I'm looking at a nice $198 profit...a typical nights play in many ways. One bad beat where I got rivered with a 2-outer, otherwise steady progress, with one nice double-up with quad jacks. How poker should be!

Warmest regards

Cransley69

Cransley69 on July 5, 2009

decided to play one more... mistake!
lasted only a few hands... lost a lot of chips to a dork that did not know what pot odds were, so he rode his flush draw to the river and caught it(of course)..... then raised 4x again with 88 on the button. 1 caller.... flop comes 5h 2h 8h
the guy checks and I push hard to deter any chance the guy might want to stick around with a high heart.... he calls the all in... he flips Qh 6h.
I give up!.... as soon as i can im going to cash out my money and get the FUCK away from this site

crashbah on July 5, 2009

so i just played another tourney... the first since my last post. sick sick sick
i am on the button with 54 which most would play probably, but i fold... the flop comes 4k5.
i think to my self "figures" but someone probably has poket Kings.... a 4 hits on the turn which would have given me a boat, but sure enough, 2 others are all in, and what does the guy to my left have????? KK... would have taken a sick cooler there. so I get crap for the next few hands and watch 3 people go all in... 2 have KK and one has A 10.... flop XXX turn 10 river 10
OMG.....
so i fold everything i see until i finally get QQ... i raise 4x and get 2 callers that limped. the flop comes 6A7... of course the scare card is there, but i dont feel like either one has it. I am out of position, but have to continue, so I do, player 2 folds player 3 calls..... next card is a 4.... I decide that the guy is on a flush draw or has like a low pocket pair or something. so i continue again, he calls... the river is a 2.... im thinking now i have the best hand, till he flips over 85......down to 450 in chips so i stay out of things until i get a hand to shove with.... AQ... there it is... same guy calls me with K 10 and spikes a 10... im out.....

WTF do i have to do to win on this site?... get a job there?

crashbah on July 5, 2009

...

what odds on July 4, 2009

I have read the postings on this site and i must agree with what odds and nitemare6.... i have played on UB, Bodog, full tilt and a couple of other sites as well. I am not a crybaby loser as i am up $ in the long run, however I have seen enough to know that something is amiss. I play regualrly at casinos as well and i see hands live all the time where players win a 3 or 4 handed pot with Q high or similar. You almost NEVER see high card win a hand on full tilt. I am not buying the whole you see more bad beats because you are playing 3-4 times the number of hands. 3-4 times the hands would mean 3-4 times the number of hands where high card wins. I get to the point where i know if i flop top pair top kicker, I am almost certainly drawing dead, even in heads up play. the other thing i see constantly is the bigger the fish, the higher his chip lead. aytime i am playing in a touney or cash game, there is usually one donk at the table that either his strategy is all in all in all in until he either wins or is out, or someone who will call anything with any hand. I will play patiently watching this moron take out player after player with suckouts that are too unlikely to be believed, until I get a hand like AA, KK, QQ or AK. Doesnt matter what the hand is, i know he is going to suck out with his 62 off.

I started out on a pretty good run, playing position tight and agressive, but after doubling my $, I reached that point where the winning just stops for huge runs at a time. I still play the same way and it proves to be successful in live play, but I do think that bad play is rewarded way too often on these sites. BYW the same story on UB and just about every other site i have played and I am glad that I am not the only one who sees this as well... I love the game and fully believe that it is a skill game over all where solid players can make money.

I still play with the hopes that I can win a big tournament again.( i recently won a freeroll with over 3000 entries and you dont see many more donks than that!.... i won a whopping 15 dollars. )... but i take the site now with a grain of salt, knowing that i am going to lose about 70% of the hands where I am ahead and try not to play more than 3 games per day.

crashbah on July 4, 2009

Full tilt aint rigged, pokers rigged! It's the sickest game in the world with just the right amount of bad beats, cold decks , talent and near infinite experience to break all but the best players. A year ago i wouldve said pokerstars was rigged cos i wasnt playing well enough, blinded by bad beats and cold decks i neglected to see the real profit that comes from bankroll management, not tilting and playing worse after bad beats and playing with a logic that beats each individual player at my table.

I just played for about 4 hours, two SNG's came 1st and 2nd even though i was down to my last $200 chips in both, nice $450 win, then play cash hu, went in 3times on the turn as 80% favourite and get shafted EVERY time! Pokers a sick game that doesn't deliver results immediately but waits till your so pi**ed off and disheartened that any man would crumble and THEN it pays off your patience and hard work.

Fulltilt can't be proven to be rigged cos it's such a sick game anyway noone could tell the difference. Im 8 months into this bankroll and it's exactly where it should be, but if you think I haven't been brutally hammered by bad beats and cold decks to the point where Im sure it's rigged, your very wrong.

IT AINT RIGGED, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, FIND WHAT IT IS AND PLUG IT!

buck22 on July 1, 2009

I just have this to add to the thread:
If you believe in miracles, they will come true on FTP.
If you believe in statistics and probability, you'd better play somewhere else.

Witch of Agnesi on June 30, 2009

...

what odds on June 28, 2009

Tell you what VA and what odds, if 50,000 hands is enough to get proof we could easily put that together between us.

If we played 4 tables at a time and played bout 17,000 hands each, that could take us 2 weeks easy.

I wouldnt mind puttin the time in if your willing, only thing is, will FTP give us 17,000 hands history, and who will anylise the stats and at what cost .

buck22 on June 27, 2009

...

what odds on June 27, 2009

whatodds,

I was responding to nitemare's post because he continues to personally attack me because I say in my opinion FTP probably isn't rigged. You are right though, it makes alot more sense to respond to what you are saying rather than respond to incomprehensibe personal attacks by strangers. I'd rather have a good discussion than trade insults any day.

As far as your stats go I see your logic but here's what I don't understand. You seem to be comparing your NL5 stats on FTP to your stats on other sites playing bigger stakes. It seems to me, to compare results on different site you would use samples from the same levels. When I first started playing online I started out fairly low, even though I'd had success live I wanted to start low as I felt the online game was probably alot different. It was very very difficult for me to win money at NL10 and NL25 even though I've had modestly consistent success for years playing 1/2 and 2/4 live. Finally I just deposited $1000, started playng NL100 and have been fairly successful ever since. I know you think if you win at NL25 or NL50 other places you should be crushing NL5 at FTP because the competition is worse. In my opinion, sometimes the comepetiton can be so bad that its hard to win consistently. You can never bluff them off of any hand, you never know where you stand in any given hand because their ranges are incomprehensible. Sure you can win a ton if you are simply getting better cards than everyone else. I honestly don't know how else you'd win. So to me, thats basically just a straight gamble. So basically I think your lack of success at NL 5 and success at other levels makes sense to me. I wouldn't make a big side bet that I could crush an NL5 game even though I do fairly well at higher stakes, its just like bingo. Even if you don't agree with my logic I still think it's a bad way to determine anything. A more accurate way would be to compare your results with the same stakes from one site to another.

With all of that being said, even if you lose at one site at NL25 and win at another site at NL25 doesn't mean there is anything weird going on at the site you are losing at. Maybe your style doesn't mesh well with the style of the LAG Easten Europeans that are everywhere on FTP. Maybe you lose there because you go into every game KNOWING you are going to lose because you don't trust the site. In any sport, how many times do you go in KNOWING you are going to lose and win? My point is there could be a ton of different reasons why you have success one place and lack success another. What I do not understand is why you keep playing on FTP. Rigged or not, I honestly don't think you will ever win on FTP. Not because of your play or antying but like I said before even if you go into a basketball game knowing you will lose, youre going to lose and poker is 100% mental. Thats why bad runs last longer for some than others. You can only run bad luck wise for so long but some players, after running bad for awhile, get it in their head that they can't win. That only prolongs the bad run. Thats why taking some time off and clearing your head always works. It's not that the time off changed your luck its just that it gets you back into a mindframe that you can win.

Honestly, I know for a fact we will never agree on this and you are one of the only people here that disagrees with me but doesn't think im a complete ass so I appreciate that. What are you trying to accomplish though? You know you aren't going to bring FTP down or anything like that. As far as warning people goes, the warnings are out there, there are a million psts on a million forums, some claiming EVERY site is rigged. The problem with the warning thing is that most people on your side tend to make weak arguments centered around 2 bad beats that they took and it comprimises your argument. I think you truly believe what you are saying and I respect that but for your own sake atleast stop playing at FTP. I don't suppose making posts reguarding it being rigged is detrimental to you but continuing to thrown money away at FTP certainly is. Not only are you likely to lose there but it can't possible be good for your poker state of mind. As I said before, if you ever want to transfer whatever money you have in your FTP account to me, I'll transfer an equal amount to your stars account.

VA Poker on June 27, 2009

Been playing some relatively large stakes single table recently of which the pots are 99% of the time resolved before before the river, rarely all in. I've found that haven't had ridiculous bad beats, still a few, but thought my super unlucky run had taken a turn. My mate asked me to play some $10 games for him and the suck outs were silly. It all came back to me, suddenly AA was gettin cracked constantly, top pairs outdrawn, it just has to be the volume of action that one gets at low stakes.
If people are playing better, there's alot less gambling going on, less variance.
Im playing stars at mo, doing fine, but playing the low stakes just deja vu'd my whole experience with fulltilt.

THEORY: When players are playing better, you win money slowly but consistantly, and when players are bad, you win in huge streaks but accompanied with far more bad beats.

Ultimately bad players are better equity, but you will have long streaks of losing to them. So this could easily be mistaken for a dodgy RNG.

buck22 on June 26, 2009

...

what odds on June 26, 2009

nitemare,
I don't really know what you are talking about. Are you talking about the last thing I said to you? The last thing I said to you was the FTP didn't make any more money by making you lose to a straight (I was nice enough not to point out that you went broke with a pair on the 4th hand of a tourney). I simply asked you multiple times how FTP made more money by you losing that hand. You still have yet to answer me. If you want to personally attack me for not thinking a website is rigged against me thats fine. Just go see how many people are playing on FTP right now. I wonder who they agree with.

VA Poker on June 24, 2009

VA Poker

so just to understand your viewpoint --> you say FTP is giving a 'random' deal such that all the anecdotal stuff we/I see over and over and over again is mathematical, or whatever term you choose to use that is more 'technical' but does not proclaim the site is rigged?

nitemare6 on June 23, 2009

...

what odds on June 21, 2009

The original post by nitemare was claiming FTP is rigging tournaments to create more rake. I just think the fact that every single poker tournament I've ever played in, seen, or read about on FTP, Pokerstars or anywhere else has progressed and concluded based on the elevation of the blinds means its not very likely rigging a tournament for action would do that much. Like I already said, if no one gets knocked out early then everyone is short by level 8 or 9 and all the money is getting in reguardless. These people aren't coming on here saying Full Tilt theoretically might benifit from cheating, they are claiming that they know for a fact Full Tilt is cheating based on information that I am trying to point out makes very little sense. Whether or not it could theoretically possibly happen is kind of irrevelant to my point. I'm just saying it doesn't really make sense so therefore should not be used as so called proof a site is cheating. No one likes to be called a cheater and there is an unwritten rule in poker that if you call someone a cheater you better be 1000%sure. It's not something I believe should be thrown around lightly so I don't like it when people use horrible logic as so called proof. I know that wasn't your point at all but it was the point of the poster I was responding to originally.

VA Poker on June 19, 2009

Ok. I wasn't really talking about what is or isn't going on at any site or what is or has been observed. It wouldn't be possible (or very smart) for me to try to dispute someone's obvservations and personal experiences.

I was just trying to explain the theoretical logic, as I understood it, behind the claim that a poker site could increase buy-ins by setting up big show-downs with increased frequency.

So, not saying it would be a good (or feasible) idea or a bad idea - just that I think that is what people mean when they say that a tournament could be "rigged for action" even when there is no per-hand rake involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
You are right about the AAvKK thing but thats kind of my point. The day you see the bubble burst in an MTT and the average BB/stack is like 70 (like it would be in situations not even as extreme as the AA KK thing)then it might seem to me like they are setting up too many coolers. But in reality you basically never see that, I literally never have one time playing internet poker. So in an extreme situation they could set up enough action hand coolers to make a tournament end prematurely before the blinds dictate but the fact remains, when do you ever see that? Every single poker tournament I have ever played in has progressed based on the levels of the blinds. Thats not to say its impossible for a tourney to be so set up that it ends prematurely I'm just saying I have never seen it on any site or live, ever.

Denethor on June 19, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
I can't argue with any of the math, but it only seems to make sense that a tournament would be over a lot quicker if every hand at every table featured AA vs KK every time, for example. In that tournament, I don't see the blinds ever being a factor unless players were (or became) aware of the situation. A ninety player tournament would be over in no more than ninety hands - all of which would go very quickly because they would most likely be all-in pre-flop. Low buy-in tournaments would be over even quicker since so many players have a tendency to go all-in with just about anything. Obviously that whole example is completely over-the-top (some may not think so), but it is for illustrative purposes only.

One other issue that would come into player is the personality of the individual being knocked out prematurely by the "action hand". I suppose a lot of people would want to get right back in another tournament. I personally would be less likely to contribute more buy-ins after something like that. If I'm knocked out with some insane lucky draw or something, I normally just want to get away from it for a while rather than play another one right away.

So even if hands were being orchestrated to eliminate players more quickly, it would have the potential to backfire since some of those people (like me) would undoubtedly be frustrated enough to just walk away rather than immediately buy in to another tournament.

You are right about the AAvKK thing but thats kind of my point. The day you see the bubble burst in an MTT and the average BB/stack is like 70 (like it would be in situations not even as extreme as the AA KK thing)then it might seem to me like they are setting up too many coolers. But in reality you basically never see that, I literally never have one time playing internet poker. So in an extreme situation they could set up enough action hand coolers to make a tournament end prematurely before the blinds dictate but the fact remains, when do you ever see that? Every single poker tournament I have ever played in has progressed based on the levels of the blinds. Thats not to say its impossible for a tourney to be so set up that it ends prematurely I'm just saying I have never seen it on any site or live, ever.

VA Poker on June 19, 2009

I can't argue with any of the math, but it seems (to me) like it would make sense that a tournament would be over a lot quicker if every hand at every table featured AA vs KK every time, for example. In that tournament, I don't see the blinds ever being a factor unless players were (or became) aware of the situation. A ninety player tournament would be over in no more than ninety hands spread over all the tables - at least one player would be eliminated from each table per hand. The hands would also go very quickly because they would most likely be all-in pre-flop. Low buy-in tournaments would be over even quicker since so many players have a tendency to go all-in with just about anything and multiple players would likely be eliminated each hand. Obviously that whole example is completely over-the-top (some may not think so), but it is for illustrative purposes only.

One other issue that would come into player is the personality of the individual being knocked out prematurely by the "action hand". I suppose a lot of people would want to get right back in another tournament. I personally would be less likely to contribute more buy-ins after something like that. If I'm knocked out with some insane lucky draw or something, I normally just want to get away from it for a while rather than play another one right away.

So even if hands were being orchestrated to eliminate players more quickly, it would have the potential to backfire since some of those people (like me) would undoubtedly be frustrated enough to just walk away rather than immediately buy in to another tournament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Blinds are still the greatest factor in determining tournament lengths. An action hand might eliminate some players early but it doesn't really matter. Look at any MTT past level 8, by then the blinds are so high in comparison to the average stack the money is getting in with or without action hands. The other thing to think about it this; lets say not one person gets coolered in a big action hand the first 2 hours of the tournament. The only thing that would change is that the average stack would be 10BB instead of 20BB. So you could have 100 guys with an average stack of 20BB or 200 guys with an average stack of 10BB. Would that tournament play out all that differently? You can take in even farther and say that if no one got eliminated in the first 2 hours it still wouldnt really matter. Because then the average stack would be 4BB's instead of 20, even though there might be 500 guys instead of 100 that tourney is still ending at roughly the same time. Basically if there were no coolers early on the stack sizes would be so small in comparison to the BB by the third hour you would have 2 players all in on every table every hand. Would those tournaments really last any longer?

Denethor on June 19, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denethor View Post
It would seem like speeding up the levels would be the easiest way to increase the number of buy-ins. I think FTP already has the levels at only six minutes in a lot of the tournaments and even less in the turbos.

I still think the "action hands" would have potential to speed things along more than just the blind levels, though. I don't ever remember having to worry about blinding out on FTP - even with the accelerated levels. I never lasted that long, and I don't think my play was looser on FTP.

I guess probably the best way to summarize the logic is that the "action hands" would prevent tight players from causing the tournaments to drag on. A player who might protect his chips for hours with small pots and blind stealing could be eliminated instantly.
Blinds are still the greatest factor in determining tournament lengths. An action hand might eliminate some players early but it doesn't really matter. Look at any MTT past level 8, by then the blinds are so high in comparison to the average stack the money is getting in with or without action hands. The other thing to think about it this; lets say not one person gets coolered in a big action hand the first 2 hours of the tournament. The only thing that would change is that the average stack would be 10BB instead of 20BB. So you could have 100 guys with an average stack of 20BB or 200 guys with an average stack of 10BB. Would that tournament play out all that differently? You can take in even farther and say that if no one got eliminated in the first 2 hours it still wouldnt really matter. Because then the average stack would be 4BB's instead of 20, even though there might be 500 guys instead of 100 that tourney is still ending at roughly the same time. Basically if there were no coolers early on the stack sizes would be so small in comparison to the BB by the third hour you would have 2 players all in on every table every hand. Would those tournaments really last any longer?

VA Poker on June 19, 2009

PF I was 70/30

post flop I was 83/17

These "pros" (i.e. college or HS drop-outs who got lucky) running this site guys are scumbags.

I don't know why I even waste time on a dollar.

Guess I figure maybe the rig will help me to finish in top 3 places someday.

If that happened it would in no way change my opinion.

nitemare6 on June 18, 2009

These are more true stories about Full RIGGED Tilt

tonight I just played in my $1 tournament:

SECOND HAND: (repeat 2nd hand)

I get 99s in late position. Guy raises 3x BB. Several donks call. I call adn don't raise.

Glop is 678 RAINBOW. Not much chance of a flush there or that I am -not leading - with my 9s.

BUT a guy bets ALL IN. A DONK I figure.

I call.

Guess what -- I made a great call - the guys has 8Js. A PAIR OF EIGHTS with three spades - backdoor.

BUT NOOooooo my hand is not go od with only 2 cards to go on FULL RIGGED!

Nope they can still deal him two running spades to flush him. AND guess what - the scum running the site sure enough had it set up to deal him a spade flush.

He had J8. I had pp - 99s

He won.

Now in a live game that might happen every few weks or a couple - three times.

But on this sick excuse for a real poker site -- that somehow manages to attract enough suckers to stay in business-- it is a all to common occurrence.

I would not give these cheats more than a $1...

nitemare6 on June 18, 2009

It would seem like speeding up the levels would be the easiest way to increase the number of buy-ins. I think FTP already has the levels at only six minutes in a lot of the tournaments and even less in the turbos.

I still think the "action hands" would have potential to speed things along more than just the blind levels, though. I don't ever remember having to worry about blinding out on FTP - even with the accelerated levels. I never lasted that long, and I don't think my play was looser on FTP.

I guess probably the best way to summarize the logic is that the "action hands" would prevent tight players from causing the tournaments to drag on. A player who might protect his chips for hours with small pots and blind stealing could be eliminated instantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Denethor, I see what you are saying about moving tournaments along faster with action hands but to me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Tournaments reach their conclusions in the time frame they do based on blinds. If the blinds are so high that the chip leader has 25BB and the average is 8BB then you are getting all ins every hand whether or not its AAvKK. Look at the tournaments you play, most of them probably reach the money and the conclusion at pretty much the exact same time every time. I know when I play MTT's with a 3k starting stack the money is almost always reached at the last half of the 10th level. So either every single tournament I play in has the same exact type of hands being given out or the levels of the blinds dictate when players bust. So if they wanted to make people bust faster and start more tourneys, changing to a 10 min level format from a 15 min format would be alot more effective than just giving out action hands.

Denethor on June 18, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
VA Poker

WHY?

because almost certainly, the same flawed RNG is used whether it's a $1 tournament or low level cash games. I figured that was obvious to all.
I asked a very very simple question which you did not answer. How did FTP make more money because of your KK losing to a straight?

Denethor, I see what you are saying about moving tournaments along faster with action hands but to me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Tournaments reach their conclusions in the time frame they do based on blinds. If the blinds are so high that the chip leader has 25BB and the average is 8BB then you are getting all ins every hand whether or not its AAvKK. Look at the tournaments you play, most of them probably reach the money and the conclusion at pretty much the exact same time every time. I know when I play MTT's with a 3k starting stack the money is almost always reached at the last half of the 10th level. So either every single tournament I play in has the same exact type of hands being given out or the levels of the blinds dictate when players bust. So if they wanted to make people bust faster and start more tourneys, changing to a 10 min level format from a 15 min format would be alot more effective than just giving out action hands.

VA Poker on June 18, 2009

VA Poker

WHY?

because almost certainly, the same flawed RNG is used whether it's a $1 tournament or low level cash games. I figured that was obvious to all.

nitemare6 on June 18, 2009

At the risk of incurring the unholy wrath of whatodds, I think I can answer this one.

I think the argument when it comes to tournaments is that an online poker room would benefit from the action-inducing hands by encouraging players to risk their stacks against one another to speed things along. The sooner that individuals are eliminated from one tournament, the sooner they would register for another. The sooner one tournament is over, the sooner another could fill up and get underway.

If a tight player is in a tournament for three hours, there would only be one buy-in. If the same player is eliminated in the first fifteen minutes when he is dealt KK only to lose to someone else dealt AA (or someone getting the perfect cards on the board), he could pay twleve buy-ins in the same three hours.

So, theoretically, even though the poker room wouldn't be increasing their rake on individual hands by creating huge showdowns, they could (again, theoretically) increase their income from the buy-ins by keeping the tournaments shorter and having more of them running in the same amount of time.

Theoretically...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
You just claimed the hands were pre programmed to create more rake. You were playing in a one dollar tournament that might not even have a rake (I know some of those big micro tourneys dont have rakes sometimes). So either they got 10 cents from every player or nothing from every player. Either way, if you could please please explain to me how you losing that hand creates more rake for the site. You don't need to call me names or anything just please explain to me why you losing that hand made FTP any more rake? Or if any of the other people who swear its rigged know the answer, feel free to enlighten me.

Denethor on June 18, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
so I play my bi-monthly $1 tournament on Full Rigged.
3rd hand -- dealt KK in late pos - raise 4xBB and get 3 callers.

Flop comes 235 rainbow

Player to my right goes AI, and I decide to call. Third player in pot also goes All In

Sure enough, full rigged tilt does it again. #1 has 105. I have pp Ks and #3 has FLOPPED A STRAIGHT. She called my PF raise with A4 o/s

Of course this is just the nature of poker. Isn't that what all the suckers and excuse-niks say about Full Rigged Tilt non-legitimate poker dealing.

No way - these hands are pre-programmed. It creates more rake. the same flawed RNG is used in a $1 tournament I suspect as in some cash games on Full Rigged.
You just claimed the hands were pre programmed to create more rake. You were playing in a one dollar tournament that might not even have a rake (I know some of those big micro tourneys dont have rakes sometimes). So either they got 10 cents from every player or nothing from every player. Either way, if you could please please explain to me how you losing that hand creates more rake for the site. You don't need to call me names or anything just please explain to me why you losing that hand made FTP any more rake? Or if any of the other people who swear its rigged know the answer, feel free to enlighten me.

VA Poker on June 18, 2009

Wow - that is an ugly hand.

I think FullTilt is pretty unplayable, especially late in a tourney if you were somehow able to survive all the land mines earlier. When I get deep in a tourney on that site, the last foking thing I want is pocket Aces, Kings or Queens. I have folded pocket aces twice in the last month when there were two other folks all in - sure as shit, I would have lost both of them. KK I fold about half the time and never shove anymore. I lost KK deep in a tourney 6 times in a row - all to A rag. So now I just call and see what happens.

You can't play real poker on the site because - well - it is not real poker. More like Russion roulette. So I pretty much look at Full Tilt is a slot machine rather then a legit poker site.

enjoy

eldave1 on June 16, 2009

Oh and I went all in cause I wanted this guy heads up and hed been raising me with 35 o

Danimal2000 on June 15, 2009

So card dead for 2 bloody hours big stack shoving me around finally get a hand and this is what happens

Full Tilt Poker Game #12834136166: Daily Dollar Rebuy (95256405), Table 250 - 800/1600 Ante 200 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:09:58 ET - 2009/06/15
Seat 1: crossties (27,433)
Seat 2: KKARLITA (26,340)
Seat 3: le gros tib (213,706)
Seat 4: beginner28 (153,261)
Seat 5: Warrior Vince (56,156)
Seat 6: Danimal2000 (26,654)
Seat 7: toff76 (62,491)
Seat 8: davidbenyami (106,423)
Seat 9: davinadee (20,920)
crossties antes 200
KKARLITA antes 200
le gros tib antes 200
beginner28 antes 200
Warrior Vince antes 200
Danimal2000 antes 200
toff76 antes 200
davidbenyami antes 200
davinadee antes 200
davidbenyami posts the small blind of 800
davinadee posts the big blind of 1,600
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Danimal2000 [Ac As]
crossties folds
KKARLITA folds
le gros tib folds
beginner28 raises to 4,800
Warrior Vince folds
Danimal2000 raises to 26,454, and is all in
toff76 folds
davidbenyami has 15 seconds left to act
davidbenyami folds
davinadee folds
beginner28 calls 21,654
Danimal2000 shows [Ac As]
beginner28 shows [3s 3d]
*** FLOP *** [Jd 5h 9d]
*** TURN *** [Jd 5h 9d] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [Jd 5h 9d 2d] [Ad]
Danimal2000 shows three of a kind, Aces
beginner28 shows a flush, Ace high
beginner28 wins the pot (57,108) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 57,108 | Rake 0
Board: [Jd 5h 9d 2d Ad]
Seat 1: crossties folded before the Flop
Seat 2: KKARLITA folded before the Flop
Seat 3: le gros tib folded before the Flop
Seat 4: beginner28 showed [3s 3d] and won (57,108) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 5: Warrior Vince folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Danimal2000 showed [Ac As] and lost with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 7: toff76 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: davidbenyami (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: davinadee (big blind) folded before the Flop

Danimal2000 on June 15, 2009

so I play my bi-monthly $1 tournament on Full Rigged.
3rd hand -- dealt KK in late pos - raise 4xBB and get 3 callers.

Flop comes 235 rainbow

Player to my right goes AI, and I decide to call. Third player in pot also goes All In

Sure enough, full rigged tilt does it again. #1 has 105. I have pp Ks and #3 has FLOPPED A STRAIGHT. She called my PF raise with A4 o/s

Of course this is just the nature of poker. Isn't that what all the suckers and excuse-niks say about Full Rigged Tilt non-legitimate poker dealing.

No way - these hands are pre-programmed. It creates more rake. the same flawed RNG is used in a $1 tournament I suspect as in some cash games on Full Rigged.

nitemare6 on June 13, 2009

Full Tilt Poker Game #12734137941: $3 + $0.30 Knockout (94624055), Table 22 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:59:17 ET - 2009/06/10
Seat 1: xcaptmox (1,570)
Seat 2: Der 2te Sieger (1,340)
Seat 3: Danimal2000 (1,325)
Seat 4: cani81 (1,560)
Seat 5: wxtwiztidxc (1,425)
Seat 6: Maholeb (1,575)
Seat 7: sytten (1,425)
Seat 8: deftleft (1,390)
Seat 9: KeilerSWid (1,870)
xcaptmox posts the small blind of 20
Der 2te Sieger posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Danimal2000 [Ks Kd]
Danimal2000 has 15 seconds left to act
Danimal2000 raises to 160
cani81 has 15 seconds left to act
cani81 folds
wxtwiztidxc folds
Maholeb folds
sytten folds
deftleft folds
xcaptmox calls 140
Der 2te Sieger calls 120
*** FLOP *** [2s 8h 3h]
xcaptmox checks
Der 2te Sieger bets 280
Danimal2000 raises to 1,165, and is all in
xcaptmox raises to 1,410, and is all in
Der 2te Sieger calls 900, and is all in
xcaptmox shows [3c 3s]
Der 2te Sieger shows [6c 6d]
Danimal2000 shows [Ks Kd]
Uncalled bet of 230 returned to xcaptmox
*** TURN *** [2s 8h 3h] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [2s 8h 3h 6s] [8s]
xcaptmox shows a full house, Threes full of Eights
Der 2te Sieger shows a full house, Sixes full of Eights
Der 2te Sieger wins the side pot (30) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights
Danimal2000 shows two pair, Kings and Eights
Der 2te Sieger wins the main pot (3,975) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4,005 Main pot 3,975. Side pot 30. | Rake 0
Board: [2s 8h 3h 6s 8s]
Seat 1: xcaptmox (small blind) showed [3c 3s] and lost with a full house, Threes full of Eights
Seat 2: Der 2te Sieger (big blind) showed [6c 6d] and won (4,005) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights
Seat 3: Danimal2000 showed [Ks Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 4: cani81 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: wxtwiztidxc didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Maholeb didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: sytten didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: deftleft (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: KeilerSWid is sitting out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danimal2000 View Post

I was very glad to read the posts here cause I thought I was losing my mind. Im on FT for a week and Im up $1200 playing low stakes games. So I cash out and keep $500 for a bankroll.

Then complete craziness happens, Im a very patient player and careful as I know about the nuts online but I am shocked at how my all ins that are beat everytime even though I m way ahead. Of course I understand bad beats happen but everytime. The weird thing is its always a 10 LOL. Its so funny I just laugh cause I know its coming.

Im going to play out my bankroll and never go back again at least Ill have made some money.

Another funny story Im brand new at poker back in 04 never played didnt have a clue what I was doing. Put $20 in for a bankroll after playing with playmoney. So its my second tourney $1.00 entry something like 5000 players and Im very loose and inexperienced I mean Calling huge raises with any paint J5 off won me a huge pot against aa and kk. So I end up winning $800 finishing second. So now Im thinking hey if I read some books and applied myself I could perhaps do ok at this. So I read a few books and practice at low limit for hours and hours and do pretty good. So I cash out 2k and go on holidays.
Ive read the theories about cashing and then going on losing streaks but thought oh they just got greedy and misused their bankroll. So I get back from holidays and the insanity kicks in. Again I cannot win no matter how far ahead I am in my all ins, it happens everytime, so I contact support and say "How is this possible?".(this is stars bye the way). Supports very prompt and good their, and they admit yes you have had some brutal beats but it happens. Im like yeah it happens but when it happens 30 40 times theirs something wrong. (Im not kidding here). Im talking being ahead post flop and getting sucked out on the turn or river to guys ranked in the bottom %10 usually. Any ways I left poker stars for good. I play in casinos and do well and have been very successful in Vegas so I figured somethings up there and couldnt take the frustration.

But I missed playing poker at home and recently injured my back so Im stuck at home and thought Id give full tilt a whirl and well you know.

My question for you guys is Is their a poker site where you dont get clobbered by suck outs?

Please no comments on black helicopters or being a bad poker player I just want an honest site to play on.

Thanks Dan

Danimal2000 on June 10, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
Buck22,
I used to prefer live to online until I started multi tabling and realized you can make alot more money playing online.
I think some people underestimate the other advantages of online poker - such as the ability to choose juicy games. Game selection is one of the most important variables in long-term profitability.

Other advantages are the ability to calculate pot odds exactly and hand histories.

HPG ADMIN on June 10, 2009

I see a huge difference in cards and players. It seems the flops demand action.

Danimal2000 on June 5, 2009

Buck22,
That was a good question about live players running bad. Alot of people seem to think they run worse online than they do live and more freguently hit these downswings. I completely think both points are true but for different reasons than most posters here. In my own experience, I play 3 tables at a time when im playing cash games. That is close t0 300 hands an hour. If I put in a pretty hard day I can get2,000 hands in. If I played live it would take close to a week of 8 hour play to get that many hands in. Couple that with the fact that players online play alot looser than most live players. Some guys will make any move at any time, not worrying about being embarrassed because they are hidden behind a computer screen. So in one hour online you see almost 10x more hands and play with much looser players, in that one hour you should expect to see alot more beats than at an hour of live. As far as downswings go, I think online players are more susceptible to huge downswings. If you are playing on 3 tables, almost 5 hands a minute, your swings will come alot quicker. Losing 2-3 buy ins live doesn't happen easily, you either have to make some horrible plays or just get totally coolered. You might lose that much over the course of a bad night. If you are a multi table internet player you might lose two buy ins in the first 20 minutes. Then things start to fall apart and before you know it you're down 6 buy ins. Obviously upswings can come un just as fast. I used to prefer live to online until I started multi tabling and realized you can make alot more money playing online. That is why I don't like it when people act like they KNOW it's rigged or something. Internet poker has done alot for the poker world as a whole and it gives earning power to people all over the world who don't live near a casino.

VA Poker on June 5, 2009

...

what odds on June 5, 2009

Yeah im grinding pokerstar at mo, won $3.3k last month, my Roi's for 2 tournys were 75% and 65%. Just had the most epic down swing, losing $1k in $50&$70 incriments. In 4 days i had AA/KK cracked 5 times in a row, AJ vs A9 type confrontations were getting crushed and had flush under flush twice then trips under trips! I couldn't fathom this could happen in live games but my roi's for the 2 games i play are now 10% and 65%. Averaging these two figures out and it's round about where it should be.
Seems about every month, i get a downswing of around 10-15 buyins, can anyone who plays live single tables tell me if they get the same results?
Last two nights ive won the $1k back and totally put this down to bankroll management and not tilting, very different story last year.
I wanted to know, in relation to your live game succes, do you really see so much difference in the cards, or are the players different.
I don't have a choice in gambling establishments cos in england, our sites are sh*t, our poker in casino's is sh*t so im gonna just grind this out for a year and see what the results are.

buck22 on June 5, 2009

I was very glad to read the posts here cause I thought I was losing my mind. Im on FT for a week and Im up $1200 playing low stakes games. So I cash out and keep $500 for a bankroll.

Then complete craziness happens, Im a very patient player and careful as I know about the nuts online but I am shocked at how my all ins that are beat everytime even though I m way ahead. Of course I understand bad beats happen but everytime. The weird thing is its always a 10 LOL. Its so funny I just laugh cause I know its coming.

Im going to play out my bankroll and never go back again at least Ill have made some money.

Another funny story Im brand new at poker back in 04 never played didnt have a clue what I was doing. Put $20 in for a bankroll after playing with playmoney. So its my second tourney $1.00 entry something like 5000 players and Im very loose and inexperienced I mean Calling huge raises with any paint J5 off won me a huge pot against aa and kk. So I end up winning $800 finishing second. So now Im thinking hey if I read some books and applied myself I could perhaps do ok at this. So I read a few books and practice at low limit for hours and hours and do pretty good. So I cash out 2k and go on holidays.
Ive read the theories about cashing and then going on losing streaks but thought oh they just got greedy and misused their bankroll. So I get back from holidays and the insanity kicks in. Again I cannot win no matter how far ahead I am in my all ins, it happens everytime, so I contact support and say "How is this possible?".(this is stars bye the way). Supports very prompt and good their, and they admit yes you have had some brutal beats but it happens. Im like yeah it happens but when it happens 30 40 times theirs something wrong. (Im not kidding here). Im talking being ahead post flop and getting sucked out on the turn or river to guys ranked in the bottom %10 usually. Any ways I left poker stars for good. I play in casinos and do well and have been very successful in Vegas so I figured somethings up there and couldnt take the frustration.

But I missed playing poker at home and recently injured my back so Im stuck at home and thought Id give full tilt a whirl and well you know.

My question for you guys is Is their a poker site where you dont get clobbered by suck outs?

Please no comments on black helicopters or being a bad poker player I just want an honest site to play on.

Thanks Dan

Danimal2000 on June 5, 2009

...

what odds on June 3, 2009

So - I thought I would play a higher stakes tourney to see if the play was any better or the action was any lessed juiced. I think not - the hands below are within a 20 minute period.

Hand one - the miracle two outer on the river screws pocket aces

Hand Two - the miracle runner runner screws pocket aces and rewards a really poor call

Hand Three- ME this time and based on the above I am scared to death. Get A-K on the button - small raise. Flop hits the Ks, 10h, 5h. Guy who called UTG bets 150, guy in cutoff calls, I pop to 500. Snap call, snap call. So I think - WTF - maybe one guy with KQ and one guy with two hearts and a draw.

NOW - I know you're thinking I gotta shove - but everyone at the table had been calling draws all the way down (i.e., no one folded regardless of what the odds were). Turn gave nothing to anybody. A little harmless 5 of diamonds. Checks to me and I bet another $500 figuring - WTF - if the flush comes I'm going to get paid. Call- Call.

River is a 5 of clubs - check, check to me. I'm thinking that this is got to be a great card for me. If someone had pocket 55 they would have bet by now. The flush was dead. No foking way someone has a single 5 in their hand. Fok it - I'll check assuming that this is FT afterall. Show of hands.

UTG had 9 of diamonds, 10 of diamonds. So this guy had middle pair, crappy kicker, wrong suit, but goes all the way to the river. Guy next to me had Jh, 5h. Missed his flush but hit runner, runner 5s. I lose. Thank God I went against my instinct and didn't bet the river at least. Have no foking idea why he didn't bet his set when he hit it.

I eventually went out of the tourney 30 minutes later - had pocket 99 - flopped a set. Got called by 88 who ended up four flushing me. SO - if you were wondering if it is any different at higher stakes - NO!

HAND 1
==============================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #12576696746: $15,000 KO Guarantee (93579966), Table 7 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:17:08 ET - 2009/06/02
Seat 1: Sharkfiction (2,515)
Seat 2: wick127 (3,195)
Seat 3: muruke (2,945)
Seat 4: TSF (2,970)
Seat 5: SoulCollector22 (2,275)
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 (3,860)
Seat 7: minniemomo (3,080)
Seat 8: twoblackaces (3,195)
Seat 9: eldave1 (3,235)
TSF posts the small blind of 15
SoulCollector22 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Tc Jh]
ACEKILLA07 calls 30
minniemomo raises to 90
twoblackaces folds
eldave1 has 15 seconds left to act
eldave1 folds
Sharkfiction folds
wick127 folds
muruke calls 90
TSF folds
SoulCollector22 folds
ACEKILLA07 calls 60
*** FLOP *** [7s 6d 3d]
ACEKILLA07 checks
minniemomo bets 180
muruke raises to 600
ACEKILLA07 folds
minniemomo calls 420
*** TURN *** [7s 6d 3d] [7c]
minniemomo checks
muruke checks
*** RIVER *** [7s 6d 3d 7c] [Ks]
minniemomo has 15 seconds left to act
minniemomo bets 420
muruke raises to 1,200
minniemomo calls 780
*** SHOW DOWN ***
muruke shows [Kh Kc] a full house, Kings full of Sevens
minniemomo mucks
muruke wins the pot (3,915) with a full house, Kings full of Sevens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,915 | Rake 0
Board: [7s 6d 3d 7c Ks]
Seat 1: Sharkfiction didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: wick127 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: muruke (button) showed [Kh Kc] and won (3,915) with a full house, Kings full of Sevens
Seat 4: TSF (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: SoulCollector22 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: minniemomo mucked [Ah Ad] - two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 8: twoblackaces didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: eldave1 didn't bet (folded)

HAND 2
===============================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #12576775632: $15,000 KO Guarantee (93579966), Table 7 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:24:02 ET - 2009/06/02
Seat 1: Sharkfiction (2,710)
Seat 2: wick127 (2,940)
Seat 4: TSF (3,165)
Seat 5: SoulCollector22 (2,110)
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 (3,560)
Seat 7: GilBunner (2,540)
Seat 8: twoblackaces (3,045)
Seat 9: eldave1 (3,325)
SoulCollector22 posts the small blind of 15
ACEKILLA07 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ad Qh]
GilBunner folds
__MarkFerrari__ sits down
__MarkFerrari__ adds 3,155
twoblackaces folds
eldave1 calls 30
Sharkfiction folds
wick127 folds
TSF calls 30
SoulCollector22 raises to 150
ACEKILLA07 calls 120
eldave1 calls 120
TSF folds
*** FLOP *** [9h 8s 2s]
SoulCollector22 has 15 seconds left to act
SoulCollector22 checks
ACEKILLA07 bets 480
eldave1 folds
SoulCollector22 has 15 seconds left to act
SoulCollector22 raises to 1,960, and is all in
ACEKILLA07 calls 1,480
SoulCollector22 shows [Ah Ac]
ACEKILLA07 shows [9s Qd]
*** TURN *** [9h 8s 2s] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [9h 8s 2s Ts] [Jd]
SoulCollector22 shows a pair of Aces
ACEKILLA07 shows a straight, Queen high
ACEKILLA07 wins the pot (4,400) with a straight, Queen high
SoulCollector22 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4,400 | Rake 0
Board: [9h 8s 2s Ts Jd]
Seat 1: Sharkfiction didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: wick127 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: TSF (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: SoulCollector22 (small blind) showed [Ah Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 (big blind) showed [9s Qd] and won (4,400) with a straight, Queen high
Seat 7: GilBunner didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: twoblackaces didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: eldave1 folded on the Flop



The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Kd Ac]
TSF folds
kgoule folds
ACEKILLA07 folds
GilBunner calls 50
twoblackaces folds
eldave1 raises to 125
Sharkfiction folds
wick127 folds
__MarkFerrari__ has 15 seconds left to act
__MarkFerrari__ calls 75
GilBunner calls 75
*** FLOP *** [Ks 2h Th]
__MarkFerrari__ checks
GilBunner bets 150
eldave1 raises to 500
__MarkFerrari__ calls 500
GilBunner calls 350
*** TURN *** [Ks 2h Th] [5d]
__MarkFerrari__ checks
GilBunner checks
eldave1 bets 500
__MarkFerrari__ has 15 seconds left to act
__MarkFerrari__ calls 500
GilBunner calls 500
*** RIVER *** [Ks 2h Th 5d] [5s]
__MarkFerrari__ checks
GilBunner checks
eldave1 checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
eldave1 shows [Kd Ac] two pair, Kings and Fives
__MarkFerrari__ mucks
GilBunner shows [Jh 5h] three of a kind, Fives
GilBunner wins the pot (3,400) with three of a kind, Fives
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,400 | Rake 0
Board: [Ks 2h Th 5d 5s]
Seat 1: Sharkfiction (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: wick127 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: __MarkFerrari__ (big blind) mucked [9d Td] - two pair, Tens and Fives
Seat 4: TSF didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: kgoule didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: ACEKILLA07 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: GilBunner showed [Jh 5h] and won (3,400) with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 8: twoblackaces didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: eldave1 showed [Kd Ac] and lost with two pair, Kings and Fives

eldave1 on June 2, 2009

If pokerstars did alright by you, then why the hell you still playing fulltilt? Stars has 3 times the traffic, probably slightly worse players, min deposit $10, very quick customer service, same rake, you dont get raped of $10 just for withdrawing, and great player reward system whereas fulltilt has mass riggage!
I understand you want the truth to be known about this site, but why do you all keep playing there when theres a better site available?

buck22 on June 2, 2009

...

what odds on June 1, 2009

W'ell if that's true then stars is rigged too whatodds,(i don't perticularly believe this) Seeing lota similar sh*t over here. During May, playing only 4% of my bankroll, i ground $200 to $3300, the graph is ridiculous, but for the last 3 days, i have been brutalised beyond belief. Can't win a single hand whatever I have. AA and KK cracked 7 times IN A ROW, lost literally every single favourite hand ive been in, and in round about 18 games im down nearly $800, it's so gross, and certainly looks unnatural and rigged cos it all is happening in a row.
There's a high chance this just happens, and it looks soooo damn rigged but it's just sick variance. I mean every single site is accused of being rigged, maybe poker doesn't pay out at the rate you expect. Especially when you tilt, thats just burning money.
Personally, what ive seen on stars is no different from Fulltilt, same bullsh*t streaks of 20 buyin drops occasionally that come out the blue.
But f*** it, im up, whoohoo!

buck22 on June 1, 2009

...

what odds on May 31, 2009

Cransley...

LOL

I just returned to law (after being a professional equity and index options trader for 10 years), I am handling one case where I am getting paid (assuimng client pays) about $200 per hour. I'd rather play poker that put up with neurotic CEOs anyday.

By the way, what does a professional options trader know about math, statistics, edge, odds, probablities? Not much apparently since on F-R-T it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Glad to hear a seemingly intelligent and experienced poker player agreeing what I unfortunately found out a few years ago, after I ahd $10,000 on the site (luckily I only lost about 800) that this site is fixed (i.e. non-random)... at least at the lower levels of play, and tournies. Rigged doesn't mean cheating because someone is winning on rigged hands; it just means that they (the greedy scum running the site) defeat the edge that presumably guys like me and you and VA et al. would have against newbies and other reckless or unsophisticated or non-shrewd players.

On F-R-T understanding odds (IMO) and the other nuances of poker usually means less than it should except maybe on 20/50 and 50/100 tables.

The irony of Full Rigged Tilt for me is, they have the greatest software and "feel" to the site, btu it is just no fun to think every fkign time you play the hand really well, build a pot, check-bet, pplay well out of position and use other winning strategies... you still suffer defeat because of the greed-programming that allows 12-18% shots to hit 50% of the time so that their rakes are higher.

Good luck mate... or is it bloke.

nitemare6 on May 30, 2009

Spot on Buck22

I played at the Bicycle Casino for 5 years, and other than chatting up the cocktail waitresses (successfully - imagine the English guy in Love Actually, in the bar in Wisconsin scene ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIXHcOjJpxY) , and playing decent, profitable poker, the one thing I did after every session was to keep a very accurate spreadsheet, showing what was, in effect, a profit & loss account, including number of hours invested, level played, and notable hands.

After 5 years, playing probably 4 nights a week on average, I knew I was not fluking it. My plays were solid, and my edge came from aggressive play in position, winning a lot of hands with weaker holdings. In one six-month period, playing at the top of my game, I averaged $154 an hour playing $3 & $5 blinds...many attorneys would be happy with that rate. I averaged $35,000 each year I was there, then when I returned to the UK started playing on Full Tilt, and literally COULD NOT WIN.

What astonished me most was the difference in All-in situations. When I go all-in, I do so in the knowledge - correct most of the time - that I am ahead. I'm looking for calls, and when I get them, most times they pay out.

But at Full Tilt, when I went all-in, yes I was ahead most of the time, my reads were correct, but I just could not win. The magic suck-out-card would drop in on the river, virtually EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Looking back I feel stupid for believing the site was fair for so long. I felt I was just running bad, that this was natural variance, and that I would come good, but it never happened. Finally the penny dropped and I found this site and realised that my experiences are shared by many, who are probably good players too. Even VA Poker, who I was very rude to ( I called him a 100% complete arse), has lost all his money on FTP, and he supports the site! (sorry VA).

Keeping accurate records, over a long period of time, will tell you where you are with your game. In order to win money at poker, you just need to be better-than-average-plus-the-rake. I was at the Bike, but not at FTP. It was that knowledge; that certainty, derived from several years playing the same way, keeping those records, that made me realise that I wasn't doing anything different.

It was the game that had changed.

I am 100% certain that FTP is rigged. The cards are not dealt randomly and suck-outs happen far too often. I'm just disappointed that it took me so long to realise it.

Good luck all.

Crans

Cransley69 on May 30, 2009

I keep good records, my 6seat games are awsome ROI's, cash and sng, heads up i just bleed chips, don't know why. I can't explain it with 5 years poker experience, just can't grind a profit even though ive probably played more heads up than any other game, so I refuse to play heads up.
My sharkscope results for all sites in the order i played them in 5 years,including my early sucker periods:
888 = +$1100
Party= +$400
VC = +$1700
Betfred= +$2500
Fulltilt= -$750
Pokerstars=+$3500

Again, I can't explain this difference. The players aren't that different from stars. Screw the individual hand historys that prove sod all, keep excellent records and avoid the losing games. Mine are heads up and playing on Fulltilt. If i ever play these I deserve to go broke.

Poker is a game of so many intricate factors that govern expected value that it's near impossible for someone to sit down in any game and say he has a definate edge. That's why so many people play it.A rigged site is just 1 of 100's of reasons for losing money.

The only concrete imformation about your games are your stats. Keep accurate records of every game you play then focus on your best profit

Keep it real

buck22 on May 30, 2009

...

what odds on May 30, 2009

nitemare,
Thank you for all of your kind words. I would reciprocate but personally attacking people online isn't really my thing. The only reason why I stated the dollar amount of your game in my post is that you acted like the guy should have folded top pair and an open ender. I then responded by saying in a one dollar game, no one will ever fold that. I know about pride and competition and doing your best. I've always told my children that I don't care what they chose to do when they grow up just as long as they take pride in their work an do it to the best of their ability. The reason why the one dollar thing was relevant is that the skill level in a one dollar game is usually very low. Thats just a fact. People who are playing one dollar games usually aren't that good therefore they often make plays you might find questionable. I was not at all trying to say that one shouldn't try in a one dollar game or it doesn't matter or anything like that. I would try just as hard in a play money game as any other game. I also was not trying to degrade you for playing in the game, I would never do that. It was simply relevant because of the level of play in the one dollar games. I wasn't trying to say your opponent shouldn't have cared because its just a dollar I was just saying he might not be at a very high skill level because of the stakes he's playing.


whatodds, to your last question to me... I'm a gold star on PS right now, far from a Supernova but maybe by the end of this year. Also, I have no money in my FT account right now but plenty in my stars so if you ever find yourself with some cash in your FT I'll be glad to make a transfer trade with you.

VA Poker on May 30, 2009

...

what odds on May 30, 2009

algorythms

nitemare6 on May 29, 2009

WHAT ODDS

Read My Lips:

FULL TILT IS RIGGED. Don't you get it yet. It is not a random deal. There are pre-programmed algoriuhms.

Sure, some times guys fold and you have conservative players who do not stay in the hand and thus defeat the FT rigging system. That results in some realistic play.

But for the majority of hands they are set up for higher RAKES.

Get it.

Don't play on FTP for more than a few dollars...

...........and only play on a day when you don't mind be aggravated to death!

nitemare6 on May 29, 2009

The guy hit a 7 on the river to give him a full rigged tilt straight. So the set of 3s were busted by a 18% probability after the turn.

As far as losers who talk about the dollar amount of a given game or poker tournament as having any bearing on whether a poker site is rigged AND/OR whether people should still play the game to win correctly... I have had this discussion/argument ad nauseum with losers like that, for many years. So here is my take (for the losers out their who have such low standards in their own sorry lives that they project it on to others):

when we are young and also when we become adults we compete in games of all kinds. Some play oglf, some basketball or tennis or ping pong or board games or video games or bowling etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Now, most of the time there is not much on the line. Not much money bet. Sometimes you just play well and hard for simple reasons: Pride, comeptition, the challenge of doing well etc.etc.

This is instailled in winning human beings who are rational, funtional and have self-worth.

Now if I had a dollar for every time guys with apparently low standards like VA Poker said the same old worn-out, loser platitude

"it's only a dollar what's the big deal... why play with skill, who cares if you play well, it's ony a small tournie?"........... I would have 1000 xtra dollars in my pocket right now.

But I was raised to have honorable pride, make a difference and try to do your best all the time.

But still guys like VA Poker continue to spit out the nauseating theory that: "you only try to do well and compete well and play well when there is A LOT of money on the line"

Well sorry that guys like him have such low values and standards.

When I play in a $1 tournament I play to win. When I play in a $10,000 tournament I play to win. Most winners do that in life. They compete to win and give their best. That doesn;t mean you are as motivated in a $1 as in a $10,000 tournament; but to me it means you still compete and play like a winner.

Besidees how the F do you get better if you practice like crap and then expect to play really well in a big tournament or game.

What a joke that guys like VA Poker are so unsophisticated that they don't get it yet. Maybe he's young, or if not, maybe he never learned these higher standards or developed enough personal pride.

If you play a pick-up basketball game or a golf match with friends this weekend, for NO money, tell me.... do you nto still try to play your best. DUH

BOTTOM LINE: you can't compete and play well on a RIGGED poker site!

FIN

nitemare6 on May 29, 2009

...

what odds on May 29, 2009

whatodds,
lol @ your post, I'll reply anyway. The reason I haven't replied to anything you said recently is that even though we disagree your points are IMO fair for the most part. I'm not conceding to you that FTP is rigged but your arguments make sense and don't seem to be out of pure bitterness. However, when someone says the FEDS should investigate or someone complains that a player in a ONE DOLLAR game wouldnt lay down top pair and an open ender I just can't help myself. I play 30-50 dollar sng's and there aren't too many people there laying down top pair with an open ender. BTW I was knocked out 3 times in a row a couple days ago by rivered straights after the money was in on the turn and that was on Stars. I don't have an issue with everyone who disagrees with me but the people who complain purely on their own hand history and say its rigged because they won elsewhere and don't win there tend to get a response out of me. It seems like you'd have an even bigger problem with them as they tend to make your argument look weak.

VA Poker on May 29, 2009

...

what odds on May 29, 2009

...

what odds on May 29, 2009

You think it's weird for a player to go all in with top pair and a open ender in a ONE DOLLAR tournament? He would have called even if he didn't hit the 10. IT'S A DOLLAR, whats your sn on fulltilt? I'll gladly transfer you the dollar. Maybe you guys are just noble martyrs who are simply posting here to stop others from playing on the evil empire that is full tilt. I have to say though, posting a bad beat story about a one dollar tournament (or any tournament) makes you look pathetic. Also, about the whole finishing the post tomorrow thing, do you really think there is a bunch of people out there who read your post and just can't wait to here the end of the story about how you got beat out of a dollar? lol you can't be serious.

VA Poker on May 29, 2009

In case any of you OBC decide to try again playing on this phony scam site. Her is an event from tonight.

I have not played on FTP for a month or more. Even then I only play a small tournament like $1 and no more than $10

Tongiht I sit down UTG. Fold 2 hands. Third hand... REPEAT ---> THIRD third hand

I get PP 3s. I limp in with about 5-6 other players. Pot 210.

Flop comes 356. I bet 90 and get three calls. Pot at 570.

Turn comes 10. I over-bet 700 hoping some clown with a 10 calls me.

All fold but one player who goes A/I. I call about 470.

He shows 10-4!! A fucking pair of tens and a open end str8 sraw, and goes all in. Real swift playing on the 3rd hand of a tournament.

----> Anyone want to guess what the river card was on Full RIGGED TilT ? (nevermind I was a 5/1 favorite).

Guess the card. I will post tomorrow.

Yes........... this was a $1 tournament. But the point is: DON'T PLAY ON FTP.

What fun is it to play with a rigged deck. no matter what you do they have it stacked against good players in tournaments in particular. I am absolutely amazed how many suckers and fools and stupid or obsessed peopel there are in the world who cannot think for themselves, and continue to rationalize or delude themselves that this kind of CR-AP "dealing" is real poker.

Find other sites or play live. Save yourslef the stress.

There is not a single time I go on this scam site (which I do rarely) that soemthing like I mentioned above (if you can guess the card) happens.

ALL THE F-KING TIME!

nitemare6 on May 28, 2009

...

what odds on May 28, 2009

VA poker

Since I live in England there is nothing 'semi-illegal', as you put it, about me playing online.

If there was a massive scam going on, at the heart of which were several US citizens, many of the victims of which were also US citizens, I would have thought the feds would be interested, irrespective of the legality or otherwise of the activity.

As to your other suggestion - to stop playing there - I have done. Thank you.

Cransley69 on May 27, 2009

Cransley,
You think the "Feds" should investigate FTP. If you are referring to the United States Federal Government you are insane. Don't you know it is illegal for anyone in the US to play internet poker for real money? Thats like saying the "Feds" should investigate your local bookie because he isn't giving you the Vegas odds on Lakers/Nuggets game. If the "Feds" ever get around to investigating FTP it won't be because they aren't giving the right odds it will be because it is illegally servicing US players.


What do you guys really think you are going to accomplish by all of this? Honestly? FTP is worth billions and they operate a business that doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of any particular government or even a governing body of poker, which of course does not exist. If you guys think its rigged just don't play, when you are gambling in a semi illegal manner you can't exactly go cry to the BBB. If there was a local card game in your town and you thought something shady was going on there would you call the cops to investigate or would you just not play there anymore?

VA Poker on May 27, 2009

...

what odds on May 27, 2009

Played for 6 hours today at Titan Poker. Bought in for $50 with .50 and $1 blinds. Played solid, aggressive poker, exactly as I have always tried at FTP and how I used to play at the Bike. What a difference!

It felt like 'Real' poker, with my hands and other peoples playing out pretty much as they should with just the occasional suck-out. Such a relief to find out that I am not going mad - that you can actually win online.

When I think of the months and months at FTP, playing a game of 'chip-attrition', where every all-in move was met with an outrageous suckout; where my thoughts were "this has to end soon, turn around in my favour" - but never did. I now know from this site that I was not alone - that somewhere along the line I was being had (as other people have been too.)

When are the Feds going to latch onto this and investigate it?

Good Riddance FTP. I won $404 today which is something I could never do at your site. Glad to be out of there, and never going back.

Good luck at the tables all.

Crans

Cransley69 on May 26, 2009

sorry whatodds, got to about 30 hands recorded and theres about 4 bad beats so far, same thing happened last time i did my 150 hand sample, sort of see a bigger picture when u see all the all ins in a row, seems pretty cosur to me, give it a go urself

buck22 on May 26, 2009

Ok whatodds, i'll record 200 random all ins and put it in my next post

buck22 on May 26, 2009

...

what odds on May 26, 2009

I agree that recording hands as they play out could throw up some dodgy results, but it would take a hell of a long time. You would need to record:
a)hand number
b)table number
c)flop,turn,river precise cards
d)what street the money went all in
e)precise odds of outs
f)out come

This would need to be done over a minimum of 100,000 RANDOM hands without error. I tried this for 100 hands and it took me 3 hrs to record it, and 3 hrs painstakingly calculating odds for each hand. So basically, it comes down to who wants to stare at a screen for 1000hrs keeping precise records to prove that a site is rigged when there is the overwhelming possibility that it's not and that you've just infact wasted a year of your life for f*** all.
If you could round up 100 willing participants, how do you know the other 99 aren't misrecording stats, you'd need to be 100% sure your sh** is accurate.
I reckon the only way to do it is for someone to write a program that can record the desired stats from the poker site and leave it running, otherwise its too time consuming and innaccurate.

Also, if any old dumbass with a spare year can prove a gambling site is rigged, don't you think a multi-billion dollar company would cover their tracks a little better e.g. maybe balancing the badbeats with unusual good stretches to avoid detection from a paranoid with a pencil and pad.

I don't mean to be negative about this plan but if it was that easy to expose a poker site, someone with the computer programming know-how would've already done it, especially if 2 whining gamblers like us have both tried it. Either find a dedicated, out of work system programmer or switch to pokerstars and be done with it.

buck22 on May 25, 2009

...

what odds on May 25, 2009

I have removed the text of all of my posts which you believe are detracting from the thread. If you want them gone entirely so as not to "undermine the entire thread", you will need to remove the text from your replies, as well.

I have to say that I see some irony and hypocrisy in your posts. You declare with absolute certainty that FTP is actively and intentionally "rigged", but then declare with equal certainty that other sites are beyond reproach. I specifically said I was not accusing PS of being rigged but simply said something didn't seem right lately.

You didn't stop there, though, and further went on to describe me as a "losing player[s] who [hasn't] got a clue about poker and [is] blaming a site being rigged for their losses". When I was complaining about FTP instead, you were defending me as a victim. You're entitled to your opinion on both FTP and PS and my abilities (all of which are likely correct), but don't pretend that you are just "trying to help me" and then use such terms to describe me.

Denethor on May 25, 2009

...

what odds on May 25, 2009

In my opinion you need to examine your results over a bigger sample size than you are currently. Just because you had a couple bad days doesn't mean you are necessarily doing anything wrong. Even the best players in the world have long losing streaks. Just focus on playing well and making the right decision. If you make the right decision and get sucked out on there's nothing you can do about it.

Also, maybe I'm biased about this because I'm a little older, but I wouldn't put too much faith in all those little programs that tell you exactly how to play. When I first started playing there wasn't even online poker much less all that stuff and I honestly think I am better off because of it. It's hard to get an edge on the field if you are all following the same programs telling you what to do. If you aren't worried too much about the money you'd probably be better off throwing all of that out the window. It could possibly hurt you a little bit in the immediate future but it will help your game down the road.

VA Poker on May 25, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 25, 2009

Denethor,
I don't know the exact probabilities of these hands but i will assume you have the correct information. What you have to realize though is that in a bubble no hand is probable. Meaning you could pick four random hands and figure out the probability that those hands would be dealt at the same time and it would be very very unlikely. There is no possible combination of hole cards four different people could have that would be anywhere close to probable. If four guys had A4,68,22,KJ that might seem to some to make alot more sense but the probability that the hand was going to be dealt just like that is extremly low. However, if four guys had those hands you wouldn't be posting on here how ridiculous it was. If you honestly think whatever site you are playing on is corrupt then play somewhere else; but spending so much time and energy trying to decide whether or not sites are rigged will never help your game. Even if you are right, it's not going to help you as a poker player. Play somewhere you atleast think you can trust and from there just focus on your game. If you just think they are all rigged just don't play because you will never improve if you are sure you are playing on a rigged site.

VA Poker on May 25, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 24, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 24, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 24, 2009

Denethor,
If you can handle it financially, I would suggest moving up in stakes just a little. As you said, at that level it is very hard to read people and even put people on certain ranges in certain situations. whatodds gave you some good advice about calling re raises pre flop, but at the stakes you are currently playing at it's hard to win with that strategy. You are going to get re raised pre flop so often that if you only play back with AA KK QQ or AK you are just going to get run over. So that forces you to make big calls pre flop with things like KQ, which is not a habit you want to develop . Alot of players have trouble at the lowest stakes then move up and start to do a little better. As far as learning the game goes, you'd be just as well off playing play money as you are playing .01/.02. Also, a good way to see alot of hands at slightly higher stakes without much risk is to play single table sit n go's. They pay out 33% of people so you can play those all day without worrying about losing too much money.

VA Poker on May 24, 2009

...

what odds on May 23, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 22, 2009

...

what odds on May 22, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 21, 2009

Just started playing Titan poker...what a difference. you get the nuts on the turn and you don't get sucked out on....Had three, all-in bets hold up tonight...never used to get that at FTP

Cransley69 on May 20, 2009

Gone back to my pokerstars account at start of the month, and it really feels like im experiencing the ANTI-RIG! I am playing like a demon of course, and in good shape 90% of the time, but im winning at a ridiculous rate, its awesome, but this month, my roi's are about 130% and BB/hr is like 35, is that just how poker roles? Or is it a bit of a coincidence that the British promotions are on this month hmmmmmm. Hope its just good play and would thouroughly recommend pokerstars at mo lol. Ive been full tilt free for months, good ridence to that bauush*t! If it aint workin, quit the site ffs.

buck22 on May 15, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

What Odds

It is quite clear to me, seeing these hands, that you and I are having the same experience...I will also bet - and correct me if I am wrong - that between these pocket Aces being cracked each time you did not have any that won hands, unless they were to players who all folded to an average raise.

That is what I find with AA and KK on Full-Tilt...you either lose a stack by the cards being rigged against you, or you just take the blinds.

Anyone else find this?

Oh...and before long that poker god, VA Poker, will come along and tell you its because you're a bad player!

Cransley

Cransley69 on May 14, 2009

Feel your pain WHATODDS. I lost the last five showdowns as a favorite (rebuilding stacks each time) before going out on the hand below.

This was a perfect flop for me as I was short stacked (thanks to the shit above) hoping to catch other players with rag aces - so I slowplay at first (a mistake perhaps). When 3 people stay in (one guy was already all in) I thought - oh fok - someone has K with better kicker - oh well. Then I say to myself - no, this is FT - some fok is staying with a J-10 gutshot even though there is AKK on the board. Please no Q - at least let me lose to K - 10. Sure as shit - river = Q - gut shot (4ht best hand) wins, As a note - this fok was winning whatever trash he played the whole tourney. egads.

Full Tilt Poker Game #12213891912: Satellite to FTOPS Main Event (91264173), Table 5 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:10:45 ET - 2009/05/14
Seat 1: falafaf (4,280)
Seat 2: de bierkar NL (5,145)
Seat 3: hustletakova (20), is sitting out
Seat 4: loosencrazy (5,620)
Seat 5: cecumm (10,295)
Seat 6: FubiusMaximus (5,620)
Seat 7: eldave1 (2,560)
Seat 8: nicolae05 (465)
falafaf antes 25
de bierkar NL antes 25
hustletakova antes 20, and is all in
loosencrazy antes 25
cecumm antes 25
FubiusMaximus antes 25
eldave1 antes 25
nicolae05 antes 25
de bierkar NL posts the small blind of 150
hustletakova checks
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [9s Kd]
loosencrazy folds
cecumm folds
FubiusMaximus calls 300
eldave1 calls 300
nicolae05 folds
falafaf raises to 600
de bierkar NL folds
FubiusMaximus calls 300
eldave1 calls 300
*** FLOP *** [Ks Ah Kc]
FubiusMaximus checks
eldave1 checks
falafaf bets 600
FubiusMaximus calls 600
eldave1 raises to 1,200
falafaf calls 600
FubiusMaximus calls 600
*** TURN *** [Ks Ah Kc] [6d]
FubiusMaximus checks
eldave1 bets 735, and is all in
falafaf calls 735
FubiusMaximus calls 735
*** RIVER *** [Ks Ah Kc 6d] [Qh]
FubiusMaximus bets 900
falafaf calls 900
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FubiusMaximus shows [Jh Td] a straight, Ace high
falafaf mucks
FubiusMaximus wins side pot #2 (1,800) with a straight, Ace high
eldave1 mucks
FubiusMaximus wins side pot #1 (7,790) with a straight, Ace high
hustletakova mucks
FubiusMaximus wins the main pot (160) with a straight, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9,750 Main pot 160. Side pot 1 7,790. Side pot 2 1,800. | Rake 0
Board: [Ks Ah Kc 6d Qh]
Seat 1: falafaf (button) mucked [As 2c] - two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 2: de bierkar NL (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: hustletakova (big blind) mucked [2s Ad] - two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: loosencrazy folded before the Flop
Seat 5: cecumm folded before the Flop
Seat 6: FubiusMaximus showed [Jh Td] and won (9,750) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 7: eldave1 mucked [9s Kd] - three of a kind, Kings
Seat 8: nicolae05 folded before the Flop

eldave1 on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

...

what odds on May 14, 2009

Absolutely spot-on analysis Eldave.

I would never moan about the occasional bad beat - that is part of the game and we all benefit from them as well as lose to them on occasions. It is the frequency of their occurrence at this site, giving a run of improbable results that, taken together, are statistically a virtual impossibility.

The way to win money at poker is to have an edge over the odds, sufficient to make you an above-average player AND to cater for the loss of the chips to the rake...a few percent of edge is all it needs.

You achieve that edge by developing intuition - knowing when to fold a strong hand, knowing when a strong raise will force a timid player to ditch the best hand, etc - and by winning more pots than would be won by your hole cards alone. This last part comes from playing position well, making well timed bluffs and semi bluffs, and maximising your chips when you have a winning hand.

Going all-in with the best hand, heads up, is a guaranteed way to win money in the long term, when playing poker. The odds of the suckout are always smaller than the odds of the win. At this site this is the most glaring "adjustment" of the game by the code-writers - it just doesn't happen the way it should, when compared to the odds.

Cransley69 on May 14, 2009

I appreciate your comments as I beleive they are genuine. For the record - I am sure that there are many folks that would agree with your strategy regarding A-5 suited, etc. - Just recognize that there are many who do not who are very successful players as well. In addition to the actual cards, what is not available is what the intent of the A-5 player was (e.g., to steal a hand, etc.) and what the pattern of the raiser had been - i.e., did he have a read on this guy?

Employing ABC poker (i.e., premimum hands in position only) is one recommended approach to poker. I abandoned it in favor of Danny N's small ball approach as I found it much more profitable - at least for me. I was fininshing to many live tourneys in the bubble area - not any more - winning now. Funny - I won a tourney this morning an the critical hand for me was a min raise I did with A 3 diamonds against a pretty tight player. Flop came A-3-3 - he had A - K and I took all his chips. Had he re-raised me preflop I could have gotten away pretty cheaply. Anyway - I don't think your opinion on the play was necessarily wrong - just wanted to point out that there are many varied valid ways to play the game.

What the poster was frustrated about though had nothing to do with that hand. It had to do - I'm guessing here from my own experience- with a foking inexplicable string of hands where he was in with the best (whether form starting best, trapping, lucky ass flop, etc) and when all the chips are in the hand does not hold up time after time. It is not the bad beat - it is the bad beat pattern, It is the flop that hits just enough of everyone pattern, it is the one turn card that keeps 5 players in pattern that he is reacting to. It wasn't really about A-5.

Take care friend

eldave1 on May 13, 2009

VAPoker

You talk as if the only thing that matters in Holdem is the strength of your hand pre-flop, and that's not the case. What matters, more often than not, is the strength of the hand you can represent. That is one of the advantages of having position - you can tell a lot from the betting patterns of your opponent and can put pressure on them to fold the better hand, by representing something stronger. You can generally take advantage of those occasions when they have missed the flop, which will be more often than not.

How do you think Gus Hansen, Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan play...watch high stakes poker and see for yourself...they are ALWAYS playing A5s, heads up in last position. Why? Because it's a positive equity strategy.

This is why playing A5s is a reasonable play here...the vast majority of the hands that opponent is likely to hold, would have missed the flop and why playing an aggressive style at most pots (particularly when last to act) is a profitable play, in the long run.

I averaged $35k a year at the Bicycle casino, (just playing evenings and weekends) playing the style I do at full tilt. The difference was that the cards were dealt randomly. Suck-outs like the ones at FTP occurred the correct amount of times, representing the odds of them happening. At FTP that just doesn't happen. Going all-in with the strongest hand before the river will always return a profit in the long run in real poker. At FTP, as I have found to my cost, you will ultimately lose by playing that way. Hence it is rigged - or whatever term you prefer for a random number generator that clearly isn't random!

What Odds hits the nail on the head. By delivering more action cards the pots are made bigger and their rake increases. There are billions of dollars involved in this industry and a small % increase in the take by the house equals a huge sum of money.

Don't try and pretend that there isn't a financial motive behind what goes on here...there is.

Cransley69 on May 13, 2009

whatodds, eldave,
Both of you guys stated there is nothing wrong with calling with A5 suited, not in the blind, facing a raise from MP at a 6 max table. Cransley posted a picture of his hand and he was clearly at a full 9 man table so that was not the case in this hand. The reason I think it was a poor call is A5(suited or not) is totally dominated by 17 different hands(A6-AK and any pair 5's or better), all of which are in most players range of opening up a pot in middle position. The only way you are not dominated there is if your opponent has 2's,3's,4's or KJ, KQ, maybe QJ suited. So, in the average online players range of raising there, 17 hands have you dominated, 3 hands are a coinflip, and you are slightly ahead of 3 hands. Thats why you shouldn't call pre flop with ace rag in my opinion, it is dominated by the majority of hands people are opening pots with, and it dominates exactly ZERO hands. Even if the other guy has A2 you're just going to chop it. I'd much rather call with 10Js or even 78s than A5s. Maybe you guys disagree, but in my opinion people overplaying ace rag is one of the most common mistakes in hold'em.

I don't mind you saying I'm part of the "you should have played it that way crowd", but keep in mind; the only reason I even had the opportunity to second guess his hand is because he is part of the "lose a hand then post it on a forum as it is proof of something" crowd. The reason why I said something is many other players were in his seat they wouldnt have lost a dime and examining your own play always helps where as crying about a hand on a forum generally doesn't do much for your game. If you don't want someone second guessing your hands just keep them off an online forum.

VA Poker on May 13, 2009

"There is nothing wrong with playing A5s from LP in a NL cash game (I'm referring to 6 max here...."""

What Odds - you got this perfectly correct in my view. I would add this to the "you played it wrong crowd" - According to who???? I have read several books and I know that the pros would have played this a dozen different ways:

* Danny N would have probably min raised
* Ivey calls for sure
* Grinder calls for sure
* Hansen - please - he probably thought it was the nuts.
* Helmouth folds
* Gordon folds

etc. etc. etc.

The point being, we mere mortals ought to be a bit less confident in whether a hand was played correctly or not since the poker Gods can't agree amongst themselves. I - for me - would have played the hand exactly like it was played with a slightly different twist then "WHAT ODDS". I like the potential monsters - suited ace in late position is one of those where your opponent can dead hit their hand and you can still take all their money if the flop comes right for you as well. Finally I think the point is this from the prior post - at least in my humble opinion - the Hero played the hand much better then his opponent (with KK I raise at least 5 BBs preflop as I do not want rag ace calls) and I would have never let the hero see the turn if I survived the flop). The KK was played horribly in my view and still got rewarded. That does not prove anything about the randomness of FT - but the hand play was fine.

eldave1 on May 13, 2009

...

what odds on May 13, 2009

Cransley, thank you for you post cursing me. Keep calling with A5 against a raise from early position, you'll do great. Let me ask you this, even if FTP is rigged, why do they screw you EVERY time like you say? Just by chance wouldn't they have to rig it for you sometimes? Did they pick you out once you set your account up to screw you? Given the fact the you have "69" in your name and you curse at people on online forums, I'm guessing I'm much older than you and have played much more live ( I guess thats what you mean by real????) poker than you ever have so I don't need a lesson in "real" poker, thanks though. If you think professionals would make that call pre flop you are absolutely dillusional. Are you saying you called that pre flop hoping to make a flush? Why else would you call, even if you spike the ace on the flop you have no idea where you are in the hand because his range of raising there would include A6-AK all which would have you dominated. But you think it's good to call A5 even if he could have you dominated because you are suited? Thats good for a laugh atleast. Next time you complain about a hand why not pick one in which you were behind basically the entire time. Whether or not FTP is rigged complaining about it on this forum does nothing to help your game, however if you were willing to examine your own play that would help you alot. OK, now you can reply cursing me because I critisized the way you played one poker hand, that really shows your maturity.

VA Poker on May 12, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
Cransley...
For me it's not fun playing on a non-random and skewed RNG site where, anecdotally, there seem to be far too many unusual hands. This has nothing to do with AA v. Ak or A5 v 56, etc.or whether Qs hold up. Rather, what bothers me is when I fold a hand that mnany other more aggressive or newer players would not (i.e .make a good fold) and I see the hand unfold with what is almost certainly a SET-UP deal such that more players have to see the flop, turn, and river, unless they are psyhics, which of course is not playing poker... and then some miraculus card is dealt that had a 10% chance. this happens all the Fking time. Not poker.
I've noticed that, too. There have been a lot of times where I thought if I played the terrible hands like others do, I'd actually be winning more. I get a 63o which would have been a full house if I'd played to the river. I get A5o which would have been a straight with 234 on the flop. Etc. And in each case others had respectable starting hands like AJs or something (or even AA or KK) that would have lost had I played the junk.

Denethor on May 12, 2009

Cransley...

you are 100% correct so why argue. I only post on hre to help other newbie, uninforemd (suckers) from losing more money on a nonrandom, fixed and rigged poker site.

The real proof of your poker ability and discipline is whether you can stop playing there like I did, a couple years ago, or maybe just play $1 turnaments from time to time, and not risk more than $50 if you don't mine getting frustrated every other hand, and ruining your live playing skills.

For me it's not fun playing on a non-random and skewed RNG site where, anecdotally, there seem to be far too many unusual hands. This has nothing to do with AA v. Ak or A5 v 56, etc.or whether Qs hold up. Rather, what bothers me is when I fold a hand that mnany other more aggressive or newer players would not (i.e .make a good fold) and I see the hand unfold with what is almost certainly a SET-UP deal such that more players have to see the flop, turn, and river, unless they are psyhics, which of course is not playing poker... and then some miraculus card is dealt that had a 10% chance. this happens all the Fking time. Not poker.

Fortunately there have been a lot of live tournaments and live games in Chicago lately, and sure enough, there are bad beats adn suck-outs. But FOR SURE they do not occur in any unusual pattern and at least I know that deck has 52 cards and is shuffled each hand AND without any pre-design subtely programmed into the deal, like on Full Rigged Tilt.

So, if you or others who bitch on this forum continue to play for any singificant money on FTP, then please stop bitching. Either stop playing there or take the crap that you will continue to receive on this rigged, off-shore, unregulated "poker" site, and call it F-T-BINGO.

nitemare6 on May 12, 2009

I'm just glad that I'm running out of money on FTP so I can leave. :)

Last night, I played a little and lost quite a bit when my QQ lost to J5o when the board came 75598.

Then this morning, I was messing around again. Sat through about 25 hands. Lost most of what I had with AKs when another player had AA. The very next hand, exact same thing happened again to someone else - AKs beaten by AA. Obviously, AA is the better pre-flop hand over KAs, but it's the same thing what odds keeps talking about.

Just sat through another 20 hands at a low table. Got only garbage the first 18 hands and folded all of them. Then was dealt JJ both the 19th and 20th hands. Lost the first time to A3o when he paired his A on the flop. Lost the second time to AA.

At least I'm almost free from FTP.

Denethor on May 12, 2009

VA Poker

you are a complete 100% arse. There isn't a professional player in the world who isn't going to call a raise of 3 x BB with Ax suited in late position, over an opponent who enters a lot of pots with that raise. As to being a calling station pre-flop, I note that you provide no advice to my previous post when someone goes all-in against you, pre-flop, and you're holding pocket Aces...presumably that's a fold to you!

You also miss the point entirely. I accept bad beats. What I do not accept is the regularity they occur on FTP - they in no way reflect REAL poker, played at a casino, where the cards are dealt in a truly random (or at least very close to random pattern). I should get sucked out on in the above circumstances 1 time in 21. On FTP it is more like 1 time in every 2...although recently it has been EVERY time. That isn't natural, but hey! you go on playing there...it's your money.

You also haven't got a clue about Texas Holdem principles. Since you obviously haven't a clue and you need a lesson in poker, here goes:

There are 169 possible starting hands in Texas Holdem. Amongst them, A,5 suited is ranked 27th strongest (28th in Sklansky's ratings, but 27th when played to the end against any random starting hand). It is a playable hand - moreso than, say A,8s and A,9s, because it has straight as well as flush possibilities. It is a good hand against a large stack because it has good payoff possibilities if you hit your draw.

It is a starting hand that can be either raised, or smooth-called before the flop to a moderate raise - even more so when in position (as I was).

On the above flop, out of the 26 stronger starting hands, there are 8 that are ahead and 18 that are not. Opponents bet could have been K,J, A,10 A,J A,Q A,K or any other of the non-pocket pair combination that my hand beats on the flop, but which were stronger holdings pre-flop. The odds are that I am ahead on the flop and the check of my opponent tends to indicate that (he was actually slow-playing, but there is nothing to indicate that until he's gone all-in later in the hand)

Had my opponent check-raised a considerable amount after the flop I would have folded, putting him on a high PP. As it was he smooth called, allowing me to see the turn, which gave me the dominant hand.

I have played this hand fine - you could argue that a half-pot sized bet after the flop is risking less to a check-raise, but I wanted to represent something stronger than a standard continuation bet , hence two-thirds of the pot.

My play here is fine, so take your head out from where the sun don't shine and get real. FTP is rigged.

Cransley69 on May 12, 2009

Are you really complaining? That is a terrible pre flop call. You tried to degrade your oppenent and excuse your poor play by stating he raises every time he enters a hand. That is actually the optimal play, it is far better to open a pot up with a raise than call another's raise(like you did) or limp in. If you would have just folded pre flop (like you should have) you wouldn't have lost any money. What about the fact that the pot was 20 BB's deep when you spiked a 5 outer on the turn? I guess your 5 outer was skill and his 2 outer was luck right? You were behind on every street but one, but somehow this guy is a luckbox and you got screwed.

Once again, Im not even here to debate the legitimacy of FTP(I'm smart enough to know when I don't have enough info to be sure of something). It's just my opinion that many times people post their hands that they think are hard evidence the site is rigged, the hand was played very poorly (this one being a perfect example). Instead of examining your own play and your call with ace rag facing a bet from MP pre flop you just cry rigged. Did FTP force you to make that call pre flop? If you would have made the correct play you wouldnt have lost a penny on that hand. I don't care if FTP is rigged or not, what I do know is that if you spend more time crying over an online site than you do examining your own game you'll lose no matter what site you go to.

One more point, if you were holding KK and raised from MP, the guy two over on your left called you with A5 and hit 2 5's you would be freaking out and putting it on here crying rigged. Get over it and stop posting your hands, the only thing you are proving is that you are a pre flop calling station.

VA Poker on May 12, 2009

Ahhh...full tilt strikes again. I'm getting so good at this that I can now predict the future...sadly, my days as a psychic are numbered as my account on full tilt is nearly out and I am never playing there again...anyone who does is an idiot (as I was for several years before I worked out what's going on.)

So this time I get A5clubs. I'm in late position and a player to my right, who tends to raise whenever he enters a hand raises three times the BB. I call and we are heads up. Flop comes 5h 3d 6d, giving me a pair of fives.

Player checks and I bet two-thirds of the pot. Player calls. Turn comes 5s, giving me trips. THE VERY MOMENT IT APPEARS I RECOGNISE THIS HAND FOR WHAT IT IS. AN ACTION HAND DESIGNED TO TAKE ALL OF MY CHIPS. I know that I'm ahead, I know he's going all-in and I know the miracle suckout is coming. I sat there and predicted it, and - being a sad old git - actually said to the computer - "come on then Full Tilt - prove me wrong".

Player checks. I bet two thirds of the pot, he goes over the top, putting me all-in. At this point I'm putting him on a high PP and recognise that he has just 2 cards that can rescue him, whilst I have 42 safety cards, but I still know, absolutely with certainty that I'm saying goodbye to my money. I call.

Sure enough Pocket Kings. In the fraction of a second before the river I say to the computer "come on then, show me the king", and whoopee doo ...right there on the river out it pops.

Now of course, I recognise that 2-outers do happen, but it's when they happen time after time after time after time, against the odds, that you know there's something fishy going on. Since my last post my account has dwindled. Every single all-in bet I make has the same result - I'm ahead when I make the bet, and behind by the end. There is no way that the dealing on this site is random. Give me a live casino any day.

Anybody recommend a site that works - I hear Titan Poker is good. Good Luck all.

Cransley69

Cransley69 on May 11, 2009

No one knows if the site is rigged or not since we do not have access to the HHs and FT has failed to provide a reputable audit that would at least put a dent in the debate. So - in my opinion it is rigged. I have a caveat - my working definition of rigged is that the results do not reflect what one would experience in a live game.

In live - when you get down to 20% of the field, there are mostly solid players left with a few donks sprinkled in (who normally do not last much longer). At FT - it is just the inverse.

In live - you RARELY get the totally inexplicable calls (e.g., 8 3 offsuit calling an opening bet of 4 times the BB). At FT - you get them all the time and they get paid (i.e., you love the call live, you hate it on FT because your lose more often then you should).

In live - your odds stay pretty consistent throughout - e.g., AA wins 80% in the beggining, middle and end (over the long haul). At FT - my stats are totally skewed - I may win AA 80% overall, but it is 40% when all or most of my chips are at risk, etc. I win half the coin flips early and when there is little at stake, I win 30% when it is late and a lot at stake.

etc.

Lately, I have been polling live players (I paly tourneys about 4 times a week) to see which of them play on-line. The vast majority no longer play (i.e., they used to) because they believe it is rigged. So even though it is what they love to do and can do it from the comfort of their bedroom - they chose not to any longer. They say because it is rigged. I interpret that to mean that it does not mimic the expereince they have in live games.

eldave1 on May 10, 2009

Thanks for the advice VA.

Even in just the short time I've been playing, I've been burned quite a few times. That's why I have so little confidence in hands that should be no-brainers.

I do seem to spend a lot of time just folding. That's why, even thought I've sat through a decent amount of hands, I really haven't had much chance to play many of them or gain much experience after the flop. I'll experiment with more risks

Denethor on May 10, 2009

Hi, i know this isnt about full tilt but i need a good moan. I just spent 12 hours as chiplead in a tourny out of 1286 people only to bubble the final table because of the fekin retards that shouldnt have got that far in the first place! I spent the whole tourny avoiding big coinflips and big stax only for some tosspot to shove all in with AQ and spike an ace, then tosspot number 2 shoves in with A9 to spike, guess what, another fricken ace! Bubbled in 11th position taking $100 for my efforts, not even minimum wage! So this rant is dedicated to all the f***ers that shove half a mill with AQ, damn u all. Damn good game though. lol

buck22 on May 10, 2009

Denethor,
I know you want to play TAG, but you are thinking way way too tight. If you have QQ and the flop comes AQ4 rainbow, you should be jumping up and down, not thinking you are beat. Not only is your hand going to be tall almost everytime this happens, but you don't even have any strong draws to worry about (no flush draws and only one possible gutshot straight draw). In hold'em the odds to get dealt a pocket pair are 13:1 and when you do hold a pocket pair the odds of flopping a set are 11:1. You aren't going to flop sets that often on a non paired board and when you do, you almost always have the best hand. The odds of you having AA, him having QQ and you both flopping a set are extremly low. If you are going to throw away middle set on a regular basis because you put the guy on top set what hands are you going to like? The other thing I don't understand is, you had TPTK and you bet the pot all the way through. However, you said if you were him you'd have thrown away the three Queens. Why would you throw away three queens but play top top for all your chips? Top top can be beaten by alot of random hands becuase all it takes is two pair to beat it(in that hand he could have easily had aces up). However, his three queens was the second nuts so I don't know who would lay that hand down. If I were you, I'd loosen my play up alot, see alot more flops. I read your earlier posts stating that you have an ultra tight starting hand selection to minimize post flop mistakes. If you are just starting to play you should play more pots and welcome mistakes (thats the only way to learn). When I started playing poker there was no online micro stakes and I had to learn the hard way playing 1/2 hold'em and losing hundreds of dollars at a time. You should take advantage of the fact you can learn on very low stakes (or ever for free if you want) and loosen your play up a little bit. If you try some different styles you'll learn more and get a feel for which style works best for you when you start moving up in stakes. Just a thought, good luck.

VA Poker on May 10, 2009

I've read a bunch of different sites, but haven't looked much at the one you provided. Thanks for the link. And I'm definitely at the very beginning as far as experience.

When I asked about the other player folding, I probably was confusing. Obviously, he wasn't going to fold if he knew I had AK. He had me beat with the first card of the flop unless I got a miracle on the turn and/or river. If I were in his place, I would have assumed that the other player had AA and hit a third A on the flop beating my three Qs. I was curious what I did wrong that gave away that I had AK rather than AA. Or was he going to play it even if there was a chance I had AA just because of the odds? With my brief playing experience on FTP, I don't think I can remember a time I had QQ and won.

Denethor on May 9, 2009

...

what odds on May 9, 2009

Thanks for the tips, odds.

I know that I played it poorly. It seems that quality cards come along so rarely that I push them too hard when I get them. In this instance, I bet way to much on both the flop and the turn putting myself in a bad position, and I should never should have called the all-in. I was trying too hard to get him to just fold rather than hang around and pick up something to beat me on the turn or river and found I'd dumped too much already when he went all-in.

Aside from not knowing when to quit, was there anything specific about my play or betting that would have told him that I didn't have AA or KK? Obviously, you can't know how this specific player would have responded, but do you think that going all-in after the flop might have saved me? I guess, what I'm asking is what I did to telegraph that I didn't have him beat. I don't think I would have had the guts to ride it out the way he did if the situation (and betting) was reversed. I probably would have folded after the flop thinking the other player had three As. If I did make it to the river, I would have assumed he had a straight A high.

Played another $1 SnG trying to burn through what's left of my captive money. I botched my last hand on there. I was in the BB with A9 and the flop came A8A. I was running short on time, so I went ahead and played as though I had it. Since I knew where three of the As were, I thought maybe I'd get lucky and nobody would have the fourth, but I got knocked out. Another player had it, though with AK, but they didn't win it either. As usual, I didn't keep in mind that whatever the most improbable hand is, somebody probably has it. :) The player that won the pot had 88 for a full-house. The full-house flop was annoying enough, but also one of the other players had KK and another 77. So we had AK, KK, 77, and 88, and the board was A8A5T.

In hindsight, I'm regretting a lot of my posts on here and may trim or remove them altogether. Considering no more than I've played and how much of the oddities I've encountered, I would think that my experiences that I've posted add a small amount of additional evidence to support the claim that something just doesn't seem right at FTP. On the other hand, though, I think my inexperience and how poorly I've played in the examples may make them seem less valid or credible.

Your last comment about top pair seems all too true. It's almost like it's necessary to rethink the odds on various hands - like AA and KK are no longer the pre-flop cards with the best chance of winning. That's one thing that has really driven me crazy. The whole reason why I'm playing so tight and agressive as instructed is because it's supposed to make it so that I'm usually going in with a premium (if not the best) hand. That should minimize the impact of my inexperience and bad play. If I was limping in with 56s or 9To, then it wouldn't surprise me if I was always getting myself into trouble. If I were to play nothing less than AA and don't fold, then mathematically I should still win the majority of the time regardless of how much I botch the play after the flop. Obviously, I do play less than AA, but the guide I use has me playing pretty selective. Other than when I'm the BB and everyone checks, I absolutely won't even call the BB with anything less than 99 or QJs and only play those in late position if nobody before me has raised. Early position, I won't call the BB with anything less than TT or AJs. You would think that would provide some amount of security against my ineptitude after the flop. :)

Denethor on May 9, 2009

...

what odds on May 9, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 9, 2009

No.1 I do not trust Full Tilt at all and will never play there for this reason. Denethor, on a table of 9 players, when you have KK some one else will have AA just under 4% of the time so it happens but not that often. However, being a great poker player isnt about always following the book, you've got to learn how to exploit the way others are playing eg the tosspot who called you with QK didnt make as big a mistake as he should because he got your whole stack. Like so:

Suppose you both start $1500

you raise 60 preflop then 240 on the flop

with QK he will lose $240 86% of the time

and win $1500 14% of the time

so your expected value (EV) is as follows:

(240x0.86)-(1500x0.14)= -$3.6

So even though he made what looked like a donkey play, and he probably didnt know this but he made the right play. You can blame luck but play this hand a million times and you'll be down around $3.6million.

Now, if you had checked it down when the scary overcard came along then:

you would win $240 86%
and lose $240 14%

(240x0.86)-(240x0.14)= +$172.80

It's these huge differences in mistakes that grinds the profit, so even though i think full tilt is dodgy, i think you'll have problems where ever you go unless you improve your game.

buck22 on May 9, 2009

...

what odds on May 9, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 9, 2009

...

what odds on May 8, 2009

Thanks for the info. If you are looking for a loose Cake site, try playersonly. It's probably the loosest site I've ever played on. I've also seen more hands than I have on any other site and can say that I have definitely not seen the high frequency of odd things that you all swear to see on FTP. If I am playing a tournamenr or Sng and I look up someone on sharkcope, their stats are generally what you would expect based on their play. It is a low volume site though, you can always find a cash table but it's weak for sng's and mtt's.

How do I take advantage of rakeback? It sounds too good to be true for me considering I already have a Cake site I like and am comfortable with.

VA Poker on May 8, 2009

...

what odds on May 8, 2009

what odds, I wanted to ask you about RB. I've played over 1 million hands online on pokerstars, fulltilt, ultimatebet, and playersonly and have never used rakeback. I've only heard about it a couple of times. How does it work and how do you use it? Thanks.

VA Poker on May 8, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 7, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 7, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 7, 2009

n/t

Denethor on May 7, 2009

...

what odds on May 7, 2009

what odds,
I'm not attempting to debate you on whether or not full tilt is rigged. As I've stated over and over I have no idea, only played 20k hands, haven't seen anything too weird but that is irrevelant. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that you and I can't possibly know either way, so that isn't what I'm trying to debate. I was merely trying to challenge the point made by denethor that tilting the odds in favor of the guys who play poor hands means higher volume and more rake for full tilt. I know gambling and I know poker; in my opinion the guys who are consistently overplaying hands and pushing with nothing are simply using poker as another form of gambling. Every true gambler (people who play against the house over and over even though they KNOW the odds don't run in their favor) knows, the fun of gambling isn't even winning it's the thrill, it's the moment right before you find out if you hit that river card, or the thrill waiting to see if your huge bet is going to get your opponent off of his monster. Now in my opinion if a guy just loves the action, you don't need to tilt the odds in his favor to keep him around. Why cheat the guy who is there to win money and give it all to the guy who doesnt really care and just loves to gamble? Take yourself as an example, you play to win money ( I assume), you felt like you were getting a bad deal at FTP so you left. If they are consistently cheating players who are playing to win, they are all going to leave. If anything it makes more sense to cheat for the guys who play to win money so they will stay because the gamblers are staying reguardless. Do you see what I'm saying? I understand the psychology of both because I pride myself on playing the best poker I possibly can but often partake in other gambling avenues in which I know I don't have an edge. I do it for fun. Many guys take that same attitude to the poker table and those guys will play poker forever, why cheat for them and scare off the guys who are playing to win money? I'd like to hear what you think about that, but once again I am not trying to prove full tilt is not rigged. It's just my opinion that it makes no sense to rig it the way all of you suggest.

VA Poker on May 7, 2009

...

what odds on May 7, 2009

...

what odds on May 7, 2009

Here's what you guys don't understand; The guys who play terrible hands all the time are action junkies. They aren't playing those hands because they think they are always ahead. They like action, you see guys like that at every single level of poker. So, if you are one of those guys you are going to keep playing win, lose, or draw(ever heard of the Beal game?). However, the guys who play solid poker with the goal of making a good profit aren't going to keep playing if they keep losing. So, tilting the odds in favor of the action junkies is not at all the way to increase volume of players. They are going to be there no matter what and all the solid players are going to switch over to pokerstars or some other site. If they are in fact doing what you guys claim they are, they aren't only corrupt but very very stupid. To use the original example given by Denethor to prove his point; the guy with K4 is most likely an action junkie, he'll keep playing whether or not his bad hands hit an unusual amount of times. He plays because the action is thrilling to him, its not about winning or losing. However, the patient guy in his example with AA plays to win money. So, how does tilting the odds in favor of the straight gambler help? He's there to gamble and he'll stay reguardless. So tilting the odds in his favor is useless all it is going to do is make the patient guys who are really there to win money leave your site. Once again, I have NO IDEA if full tilt is corrupt or not. I've only played 20,000 hands there and I'd have to play about 100x that before I even started to make an educated guess based on my own results. I am just saying that in my opinion rigging the site the way you guys say they do would make absolutely no sense.

VA Poker on May 7, 2009

...

what odds on May 7, 2009

I understand what you are saying but you have to see the big picture. You, and most of the other people who claim FTP is rigged are playing pretty low stakes (not to degrade I play low stakes myself). My point is, why would FTP bother rigging these small games when most of their profit comes from high level cash games and large buy in sng's and mtt's. We are lucky they even offer the low stakes games. Why would they risk losing the high stakes guys by rigging the low level games? To me, it just makes no sense. Not a single high stakes player has come on here claiming its rigged, nor has a single player come on and claimed the site is working in their favor, how can it be against everyone?

The other thing is, I've played on 4 different sites over the past few years and on every single site, every time there is a bad beat someone in the chat box screams rigged. The only differences I've seen on these 4 sites (ultimatebet, pokerstars, fulltilt, and playersonly) is the level of play. UB and PO have way more fish than stars and ft. Granted I've put in the least time on full tilt, I've still seen about 20,000 hands by multi tabling for about 100 hours. Poker players will always look for any excuse why they got screwed or are unlucky (haven't you heard those who claim they have NEVER won a single race?), the bottom line is that if these people really truly believed ftp of any other site was rigged they would never spend another penny playing there (unless they are crazy).

I don't claim that I KNOW for sure 100% that these sites are not rigged. It's just my opinion that sites worth billions of dollars wouldnt jeopardize their whole net worth and reputation by rigging a 10 dollar sng so some fish will like poker more. It just seems to me that everyone who claims its rigged for sure is just looking at their small immediate experience and not grasping the full scope of these sites operations and the consequences vs rewards for these sites to rig the lowest level games.

As far as your claim that people only play poorly bc they know it works, you have to think about the nature of gambling. Some guys really want to be skilled poker players and some guys simply want to gamble. There are rich guys who sit down at the highest level tables and play horribly just because they crave the action. I lost 5k on the blackjack tables last time I was in Vegas, it wasnt because I thought I somehow had some advantage playing high stakes blackjack drunken and sleep deprived, I was just gambling. Thats what those guys who never ever lay down the suited connectors pre flop are doing. You'll see those guys no matter how high you make it up the ladder in poker. It's kind of like me writing these posts when there is about a 10000:1 shot I will convince anyone to think like me who already doesnt.

VA Poker on May 7, 2009

I guess to sumarize what I'm trying to say:

A system designed to encourage poor and below average players to continue playing would very much benefit a poker web site and would not need to mark each individual player as either "good" or "bad".

My claim isn't that "good players" are punished and "bad players" are rewarded. I'm saying that it APPEARS that bad play (not bad playERS) is rewarded too often and consequently good play is punished.

Also in a completely different direction, if you just look at society, everyone loves action and excitement. No one likes the defensive-oriented team that grinds out wins. They want the high-powered offense that scores big. Likewise, most people are not going to be happy playing in poker games where they have to fold 80% of their hands and often win uncontested pots when they raise with good cards. They want showdowns and big twists. They want big hands being beat by bigger hands being beat by huge hands all decided by the river.

Lastly, the fact that I didn't treat calling all-in with AA as a foregone conclusion shows how little faith I have in pocket aces after playing on FTP. :) I can't remember a time when I saw AA (mine or others) hold up on FTP.

Denethor on May 7, 2009

I wasn't trying to say that the player receiving AA was a better player just by virtue of receiving AA. But clearly the player going all in with K4s is not going to be a good player. So I should have reversed in my example and had the AA player go all-in first. That really isn't at all relevant to the point I'm trying to make. I chose a poor example.

I was wrong to make assumptions about odd things happening in real poker because of my very limited experience. The problem that I see is that on FTP those 99:1 miracles seem happen all the time. I'm not just talking about to people against whom I'm playing. I see it even when I observe.

I set up an account on PokerStars a couple weeks ago, but hadn't played there hardly at all because I prefered the FTP software. I went to PokerStars and entered a play-money tournament equivalent to one I had been in most recently on FTP. The difference was like night and day.

I play tournaments ridiculously tight and agressive. That's not any brag on me because it's not "my" style or anything. That's just how much of I've read suggests beginners play. On FTP, I would blind out over and over before reaching the top 20. I just never received any playable pocket cards. I would go 50 hands without ever receiving anything better than K8o. When I did get what I counted as playable cards, I never hit the flop and others with significantly inferior pocket cards would get exactly what they needed (three of a kind, flush, full house, etc.). There were never any reasonable victories - only over-the-top ones. People didn't win with pairs or high cards. They won with straight flushes and four of a kind. Strong pocket cards just could not win in FTP tournaments.

The first and only tournament I played on PokerStars (just finished), I used the exact same ultra-tight play that I did on FTP, and I cruised to fourth place - even with antes! I am certain that I would NOT have won (terrible in heads up) but am confident I could easily have finished higher if I hadn't called an all-in because I had to leave. Most hands were decided by pairs or an occasional three of a kind. Players weren't as crazy about calling any raise with any card. Every hand didn't turn into an all-in-fest. It was so much nicer.

Now, you may just say that the difference was that the other players were playing tighter than those do on FTP. Or you could say that I was playing with worse opponents and was able to finish higher. Either of those could be the case, but they were still playing pretty poorly (all-in with TQo when I had AQs and raised substantially pre-flop) and this was a very low level tournament. Instead, my thinking is that the players on FTP play the way they do (calling everything, all-in all the time, etc.) for the simple reason that playing that way works on FTP. If people consistently lost when shoving all-in with 78s, they would either quit or learn that it's not the right way to play. Instead, for whatever reason, they hit these bizarre miracles on the turn or river upsetting much better hands enough that they think they are playing well and are making the correct calls.

Denethor on May 7, 2009

In your example, why do you think the better player had AA? It makes no sense, everyone gets AA every once and awhile. Why does this guy picking up AA and having someone shove in front of him make him a better player? Please explain.


Also, you say these "miracles" never happen in "real poker" what does that even mean? Heads up pre flop AA against the worst pre flop hand (72o) still has a 12.5% chance of getting beat. I have been playing "real poker" as you put it, since I was 18 years old (im 34 now) and I have seen my share of crazy things. The last time I player live poker (I'm assuming thats what you mean by "real poker"?) I had JJ, flop went KJ7, he bet, I 3 bet, he 4 bet, I shove, he turns over KK, turn is a blank, river is a jack. Thats a one outer, in "real poker". Even if someone is a 99:1 dog they are going to hit that one time out of a hundred, you can't say something never happens in "real poker" that doesn't make any sense. There is obvious reasons why more unlikely results happen online, I'm not going to bother going into all of them again as I've done it on every post I've made and no one listens. If you read these complainers posts a lot of them say that they are winning live players and lose online, so it has to be rigged. The fact is that unless you play in a live game with crazy crazy action the online game is a whole different animal. I player for 13 years live before ever playing online. The first 6 months online I lost about 3,000. Now I am a winning online player, it took me awhile to realize that I can't play the exact same way I do online as I do live. If i played that way I'd get run over. So alot of these guys, instead of realizing that they should change their online play because its a whole different game, they just say its rigged because they see more beats.

I'm not trying to attack you or anything. Your posts seem to be comprehensive and well thought out, unlike alot of guys who post here who just want to curse and call them cheaters and say they should be thrown in jail. I'm just saying there's alot of variables in poker and you have to realize that. Back to my original point the perfect example of that is your k4 v AA thing. You think the better player obviously has AA but that is in fact not at all true, he just got lucky to pick up AA in that spot. For all we know, the same guy might make the same call with qj suited and be behind the k4.

VA Poker on May 6, 2009

In response to VA Poker:

I wasn't trying to talk about the proper way to play pocket AAs preflop. That had nothing to do with my post. I was simply pointing out that it's not like the sites would have nothing to gain from having the sites reward bad play.

My point was that, as many have said before me, these poker sites need the masses to be pleased with their play and their results. If people find out that they have to actually devote some time to learning the game or they will lose all the time, they will not play.

The system doesn't have to be told who is "good" or who is "bad". That is making things far too complicated and is not at all necessary. The site only needs to systematically provide miracle turn and river outs that would never happen in real poker. The players who would be the recipients of these magic bad beats would obviously be the players who made bad decisions. Instead of losing because of their mistakes and allowing good players to benefit from exploiting those mistakes, the system would bail them out.

You say the better player doesn't always have the best hand but isn't that what constitutes the "better player"? And, in my example, didn't the better player have the best hand? Are you saying that K4 is a better hand than AA?

Denethor on May 6, 2009

First of all anyone can call with aces, doesnt make you a good player. "joe" doesn't have to know "bob" will play any hand to call with aces, you call with aces everytime pre flop no matter what. Secondly, my point is that the more loose play you see the higher volume of bad beats you will see, I didn't say it increased the percentages of bad beats just the volume and you can't possibly dispute that. Finally, how do you think these sites tell who the "joes" are and who the "bobs" are? Do you think they employ thousands of people to go through every players hand history and peg them as a joe or a bob and decide who to cheat and who to make win? The better player doesn't ALWAYS have the best hand. You can be the most patient player ever, finally pick up KK and run it into AA. So what if the better player has KK does FTP know that or do they give him the king on the flop anyway? Most of these complainers play low stakes, FTP has very high stakes tourneys and cash game thats where they make most of their money. However, you would have us believe they are expending vast resources to make sure the bad penny stakes players are beating the good penny stakes players. Please enlighten me as to how you think the rigging works? Alllll these complainers no one has told me how they figure out who is good and who is bad. I'd really like to hear it.

VA Poker on May 6, 2009

I am pretty new to poker (online or otherwise) so I understand that my comments probably won't carry much weight. I found this page when I started doing some searching because I was becoming so disillusioned with poker in general after playing on FTP.

To me, it seems that there are plenty of advantages to orchestrating the outcome of hands. The biggest of these being that the goal of the site is mass traffic - not a small group of elite players competing with one another.

Imagine two individuals become interested in poker and begin playing on FTP. Bob is in marketing, is a people person, and has always been told he is "lucky". He sees a heads-up tournament and thinks he could have some fun and probably get lucky and maybe even rich and famous at that. Joe is in accounting, is a numbers person, and likes odds and puzzles. He thinks that, with an understanding of the underlying fundamentals and odds, he could probably make a little money every now and then in addition to the enjoyment of playing the odds.

Both are in a tournament on FTP. Bob is dealt K4s and Joe is dealt AA. Bob knows nothing about the strength of his hand or odds and is out-of-position but thinks he remembers his favorite pro shoving all-in last weekend with K4s. Joe is in late position and knows Bob has been playing every hand he gets so he calls all-in. Both players show their cards.

Now, let's follow two different scenarios. In the first, the flop comes 39J rainbow, the turn comes 4h, and the rivers comes Qs. Joe is rewarded for his research and patience and wins with AA. Joe continues to play the same way and increases his skill. Bob is disappointed and assumes it is just bad luck. He catches a break everyone once in a while, but just continues to lose and ultimately gets bored. He think that he's just not lucky.

In the second scenario, the flop immediately comes KK2 giving Bob three of a kind, the turn comes Js, and (to add insult to injury) the river comes 4d. Bob wins with his miraculous full house, congratulates himself on his luck, can brag about his "great hand" to his coworkers, and keeps playing the same way. Joe is crushed, but knows he made the right call. He knows that if he plays enough, he SHOULD come out ahead as long as he plays the right way.

I can guarantee you that there will be far more Bobs than Joes. So, clearly, it would be in the best interest of FTP to artificially keep the Bobs winning against ridiculous odds. If Bob loses, he won't think that he should research his odds and play more carefully - he'll just quit. When Joe loses, he'll continue playing knowing that the odds SHOULD be in his favor.

I'm no statistics guru, but it seems to me that the argument that more bad players equates to more bad beats doesn't make sense. I would think that more bad players should mean more reward for those who play correctly. That never seems to be the case, though.

Denethor on May 6, 2009

Considering the fact that I was mocking you, wack job psycho was exactly what I was going for. Do you really think FTP owes you anything? If you live in the USA you are breaking the law by playing real money on their site and you want to audit their records. You are clearly insane and believe the world revolves around you and your penny stakes poker losses. MAYBE YOU JUST AREN'T AS GOOD AS YOU THINK YOU ARE. I actually have played on full tilt the past month just because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I deposited 400 and started playing 1/2 cash games. After over 100 hours of play I'm up well over 1500. By the way, how old are you? Are you really calling me a "retard". I have a SPECIAL NEEDS daughter, not a retarted daughter as you would put it and people like you make me sick.

VA Poker on May 5, 2009

You and your comments sound like you're a whack-job, psycho.

I haven't played a cash game on FTP for about 5 months, and when I did play it's small games and mostly cash tournaments. I never played more than one table except a few times in over FOUR years - u fking a-wipe retard!

You certainly must be some retard that gets paid by the corrupt, scumbag cheaters who run full rigged tilt poker site. Go ahead - admit it! It's so obvious anyway.

LOL

nitemare6 on May 5, 2009

nitemare6,
I have played with you on full tilt and you are a cheater, you play 2 computers at once and you cheat. you are a cheater. you cheat, you are a cheater. how you like those apples? Why don't you admit that you are a cheater? I want to audit your hand h istory to prove you're a cheater but you won't let me. Why not?

VA Poker on May 5, 2009

VA Poker- Full Rigged Tilt is RIGGED. There is ZERO doubt about that... how about those apples.

The only reason excuse-niks like you can deend this corrupt site is becuase of some vague notion that unless you prove it by x trillion hands then it is not fixed. Sorry I will stick with anecdotal and experience over 5 years on this rigged site to make a decision not to play there.

The only thing that angers meis how they can get away without provding ANY audited data and none of the pros ever address the notion of a rigged online poker site. Why won't hey provde audited data, and respond to so many allegations of a rigged and/or non-random, RNG.

WHY
WHY

THAT ALONE is sufficient for me to not want to ply there. IF this was a legitimate site then they would "defend" it more. But they are making so much money due to the popularity of poker and the will rogers concept that "there is a sucker is born everyday", they can get away with rigged poker.

But let's get to the bottom line: DO YOU make money at FTP. What games do you play in? Do you NOT see many many more beats, suck-outs and inexplicable hands on FTP that cannot be accounted for simply by more deals... then we ever see live games? If not then you must be blind or naive or work for them!

nitemare6 on May 5, 2009

You miss the point entirely VA Poker. I didn't go into details about the betting patterns for the big PP hands - some were people all-in before the flop with their holdings - what are you going to do then, fold pocket Aces to an all-in bet before the flop?

The fact is, whether or not you ever fold a big PP like Aces(and I do, on occasions) if you were to see them out, come what may, to the river, they should still win 82% of the time against any other holding when you are heads-up.

Statistically, over several months and thousands of hands, that is not happening.

We should all expect suck-outs against a better hand, but those suck-outs should, over time, be representative of the odds of that happening. On this site that doesn't seem to happen.

Finally, in the final example of pocket kings, my read, and my play was correct - that I was ahead and I needed to raise a significant amount to take the odds away from the opponent with his drawing hand. I did that twice - on the flop and on the turn. He stayed with me both times against the odds and gets rewarded for it.

Now that can happen, but over time, playing that hand identically, I should get rewarded for the opponent playing the wrong side of the odds. I played like that for several years at the Bike and got paid off for it. Play that way at Full Tilt and you don't. Something stinks!

Cransley69 on May 5, 2009

Why did you preface your statement talking about your winnings? Are you saying just because you had a few winning years that any game you don't win in is automatically rigged? There's no way its legit unless you are taking home 35k a year. Haven't you heard of guys who made millions playing poker and lost every penny of it the same way? So let me get something straight, first you said those pp's got cracked over a few days, then you said it was five consecutive pp's. Are you saying you only had 5 pp's over a matter of days and it was aces or kings everytime? Unless thats the case it was not in fact 5 consecutive pp's so your 3000:1 thing is completely wrong. One thing that jumped out at me is that every pot you lost you knew what the other guy had, meaning you stayed in the hand until the showdown everytime. Have you ever heard of folding a big pp at any point in the hand? If a guys betting big after the river all you can beat is a bluff with aces. But why examine your own play when you can just complain that the site is somehow rigged against you. Maybe all you guys should start a support group. Here's what I don't understand, even if you are sure its rigged, why don't you just not play there? Instead you come on here acting like they owe you some kind of explaination for getting your aces cracked. People are always on here talking about aces getting cracked but they are usually overplaying them. Unless you are deep in a tournament when the stacks are getting short aces aren't always your best friend. Not being able to lay down aces at any point in a hand will get you stacked off over and over again I don't care where you play.

VA Poker on May 5, 2009

I have played texas holdem for ten years, including a period living in LA where I supplimented my income playing at the Bicycle Casino ($3&5 blinds) in the evenings after work and AVERAGED $35,000 per year profit(I kept a very detailed spreadsheet).

I returned to the UK on business and there is little access to live cash games around here, so I started playing on-line. FTP has the best user interface, but boy is it rigged. I literally cannot win. I can take down small pots, but get me into a hand where the chips are all going in the middle and I just say goodbye to them.


For example, take this run of hands from the last couple of days: Pocket Aces beaten by pocket fours (opponent flopped a set) Pocket Aces beaten by AQ (opponent flopped a straight) Pocket Kings beaten by pocket queens (opponent flopped a set) Pocket Aces beaten by 7,8 (opponent turned a straight after calling an all-in bet) Each time heads-up, and without any winning pocket Ace or King hands at all in between. Then to top it all, last night I flop a full house with pocket 2's, end up all-in after the flop - way ahead - and the board goes runner,runner to a bigger full house for my opponent.

Then, finally, just now, had pocket Kings again, raised to three times the BB, got one caller out of position, flop comes 10,4,3 with two clubs.

I bet the pot, he calls,, turn is a blank. I go all-in (3 times the pot), he calls with A,8 clubs. River card is a club.

Just the 5 consecutive pocket pairs beaten in a row where they were 82% to win each time, equates to odds of over 3000 to 1, never mind the flopped full house that was 98% to win as well.

Someone's making money out of Full Tilt, but it ain't me, and when my current buy in is gone, I'm going somewhere else more reasonable. Anyone recommend any sites?

Cransley69 on May 4, 2009

Third time now. Check out hand #11888702469. Pocket Kings. All in after the flop called with secod pair to my overpair. Opponent immediately turns two pair with all chips in the pot. This can not be explained by random selection. Will you respond???

Dominate11

From: ************
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:51:42 PM
Subject: Re: Fair Play

Just happened again. Second very bad beat against an all in player in the last 45 minutes.


***************************
To: feedback@fulltiltpoker.com
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:15:10 PM
Subject: Fair Play

How do we know that the selection of cards is fair and random. It appears, and the online chat seems to support, that the frequency of low probability hands connecting, particularly after all the chips are in, is way above normal percentages. Is there any way to prove the game is fair and card selection is random?








egrimpe on April 26, 2009

No way this site is fair. The bad beats are ridiculous. I don't see anything like this playing live poker. When you get ejected from 6 of the last ten games on horrific bad beats, it just can't be explained. If you wind up all in against a 2-4 outer, you hope to win half the time. No one can convince me this is random. The obvious incentive to tilt the game towards the bad players is to keep them coming back for more. when will this finally be exposed?

egrimpe on April 26, 2009

Full Rigged Tilt is a scam site. Scumbags run it. IMHO.

The "professional" poker players who tout Full Tilt on the TV ("we play at full tilt poker") are laughable! These guys have little or no integrity, and have forgotten what the truth is. After all they are POKER PLAYERS! They are used to misrpresenting. They are no more than compulsive gamblers who got lucky to be involved in poker at a time when they get publicity and can earn $$ form other sources than playing poker. I would love to talk with so called "jesus" ferguson and have him answer questions about his rigged poker site. Why does anyone think he is more honest or honorable than the worst CFO during the Wall Street scam years??!

Many of them got indicted years later for fraud, and, in my opinion, IF FTP was within the jurisdiction of the US the owners of F-R-T -and- the poker charlatans (so-called poker "pros") who misrepresent and support this scam site, would also get indicted, eventually.

I agree that these scumabgs will eventually be exposed as corrupt.

Meanwhile I canot play on this site. Its a total joke, and thus... no fun. I am playing live games and enjoy it more.......... EVEN WHEN I get a bad beat or sucked-out. I still feel better knowing that the deck is not rigged by some technology.

On FRT, on the other hand, when I get sucked-out by a ONE or TWO outer repeatedly, there is NO doubt in my mind that it IS a rigged deck/deal.

What fun is that trying to beat a rigged system. Good play doesn't matter on this corrupt site!

nitemare6 on April 26, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Poker View Post
eldave, I understand what you are saying and i can clearly see that you are not alone. However, in my opinion a lot of those things you are saying can be explained. There is so much bad play online that many bad beats are bound to happen and when you run really bad you run way worse than you ever will during live games, Ive been there too. I just think the only difference between internet play and live play is the way people play and solid players tend to remember the terrible beats and forget the many many times a horrible play throws you all his chips. As far as the cashout thing goes in my opinion its psychological. Lets say you play 1/2 cash games and you have 1000 in you account and decide to take 500 out. All of the sudden you only have 250 big blinds and you start to play scared because no one wants to bust. Like you said nobody knows for sure and I don't think we will ever be in agreement unless proof comes out one way or another. I just hope you and the other guys who are sure it is rigged will atleast think about what I said, I'm sure I won't convert any of you but its just something to think about.
This is the common argument FTP will answer with and 'the bad players = mor bad beats' answer is actually completely inaccurate.

Yes, more bad beats happen when playing bad players, but you also win a shit load more as well when hands hold up as well. You'll be getting all in plenty of times often with very good equity edges and you'll grind profits.

I think PS offers a good and fair game. I don't play there but have done so in the past. Open up a few NL4 tables there, play a shit load of hands- the opposition is terrible, you'll get sucked out on from time to time by a bad player chasing against the odds, but over a few thousands hands your equity edge on these hands will SHINE through...every site I've played this has been the case and you can witness your bankroll grow.

At FTP, this doesn't happen. The bad beats keep coming, the cooler hands keep coming and eventually it gets to the point where it is enough to piss off the good humour man.

Every thread like this, someone comes on, disses people, calls them ignorant, tries to defend the site in question and they don't offer anything other than the comments like bad players = more bad beats.

Bad players= more profit, that is what bad players equals...unless you play at FTP.

I've played sessions on sites where I lose in succession and it can be annoying but you accept it as part of poker...the variance of poker, the thing that keeps the bad players coming back as they think they have a chance of winning.

FTP takes this too far, bad players do far better than they should (perhaps why the site is so popular?), winnings players win nowhere near as much as they should (TAG players this is, those who rely on showdown winnings for the majority of their profits)....

I've played sessions and literally laughed out loud at things I've seen bad beats that come in such a small sample size, all bunched together that just literally defy logic. You know the odds and these things happen, but when it happens every 1/7 sessions you have to question the integrity of the game...

I am confident they will be exposed soon.

what odds on April 25, 2009

...

what odds on April 25, 2009

I've been playing poker long enough to know when i'm outclassed or have met my match. I wrote on here how fulltilt screwed me and how i moved $200 to ipoker and grinded it up to $2500 only playing 5% of my bankroll, over about 400 games, profiting at 50c/$1 games, i banked out $2300 to start again and now 200 games in ive made zilch, completely broke even, playin $10 games!
I am convinced online poker is rigged, not just full tilt. I'll never play higher than $5 online ever again. Below are 2 tables of $10 heads up games at the same site (ipoker), my initial profit when joining the site, and my current profit after banking out. Im no maths genius but, same game, same stake, shouldnt the results be roughly the same.


Games Staked Profit Time %roi Profit/hr
1. 94 994.5 193.18 15.95 19.43 12.12
2. 84 871.5 -61.5 19.9 -7.06 -3.09

The difference is rediculous, i banked out $260 and am only playing live.

Also, when changing sites i notice $11 seems to vanish into thin air when full tilt is involved, wonder where it goes, cheeky sods, rig the games then carve off a nice slice when you leave. So sick of online poker,im done with it.

buck22 on April 24, 2009

You throw out a couple of examples of your hands (actually you didn't even give real examples) and you claim you KNOW its rigged because of a few of your hands. If full tilt is anything like pstars they have close to 30,000 tables going at once during peak hours. Thats roughly 50,000 hands per hour. Unless you have all the data for every hand it is completely ignorant of you to post that you KNOW its rigged. You say its rigged to make you tilt, maybe thats just your personality. Truly good players hardly ever tilt reguardless of the situation. I don't have a problem with people posting their hands and questioning the integrity of full tilt based on those, but for you to say you are sure its rigged based on the microspopic number of hands youve played (in relation to the total hands on the site) is absolutely self centered and ignorant. How would you like it if we were sitting at a table together and I accused you of cheating based on such little info?

VA Poker on April 23, 2009

...

what odds on April 23, 2009

go look at the opr for my acct and then i will tell everyone what i know about the site and the way it all works always_mt full tilt and party poker

always_mt on April 20, 2009

Alright - they win - I can't even use this site for practice it is so rigged. There will be a lawsuit one day. The hand below is the last straw. I had played about 10 percent of the pot - very tight. I get AK suited on the button and raise it 3 times the BB. Mauiboy shoves all in over me with J 8 offsuit - Not call - not raise - all foking in with j 8 offsuit. The flop comes A, K, 4 - rainbow. After the flop I am a 98% favorite. I say to my self - here it comes - turn q triver 10 - I wrote it foking doen on a scratch pad - sure as shit - that is exactly what happened. I am done - if you think this is legit - you're nuts. It just happens too many times. Not the fact that I could lose a hand like that - but the fact that someone shoves over a preflop raise with j 8 offsuit and catches the miracle like they always foking do on this site - they know what cards are coming!!!!!!!


Full Tilt Poker Game #11774302861: $30 + $3 Sit & Go (88305811), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:54:19 ET - 2009/04/19
Seat 1: Max The OG (1,891)
Seat 2: Bighousejim (940)
Seat 5: eldave1 (1,253)
Seat 6: bjrnet (2,444)
Seat 7: Mauiboy23 (1,650)
Seat 8: RiVeR_pok (3,350)
Seat 9: TheHuncher (1,972)
bjrnet posts the small blind of 50
Mauiboy23 posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ac Kc]
RiVeR_pok folds
TheHuncher folds
Max The OG folds
Bighousejim folds
eldave1 raises to 300
bjrnet folds
Mauiboy23 raises to 1,650, and is all in
eldave1 calls 953, and is all in
Mauiboy23 shows [Jc 8h]
eldave1 shows [Ac Kc]
Uncalled bet of 397 returned to Mauiboy23
*** FLOP *** [As 4c Kh]
*** TURN *** [As 4c Kh] [Qd]
*** RIVER *** [As 4c Kh Qd] [Td]
Mauiboy23 shows a straight, Ace high
eldave1 shows two pair, Aces and Kings
Mauiboy23 wins the pot (2,556) with a straight, Ace high
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,556 | Rake 0
Board: [As 4c Kh Qd Td]
Seat 1: Max The OG didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Bighousejim didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: eldave1 (button) showed [Ac Kc] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 6: bjrnet (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: Mauiboy23 (big blind) showed [Jc 8h] and won (2,556) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 8: RiVeR_pok didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: TheHuncher didn't bet (folded)

eldave1 on April 19, 2009

Dunno why I come on here, lol, we'll never get to the bottom of it. All I know is when playing other sites I get bad beat 3 or 4 times a day with an oober beat every other day or once a week. On full tilt i'll go days without a bad beat then a wave of oober-beats kick in. It's not so much that these bad beats are in a row (random numbers rarely look random) but its the 10% and lesses in a row. I would say half the days i play on this site i get 4 or more 8% beats and 6-8 bad beats.
Im stuck in this stupid back and forth thought motion of 'it cant be rigged, why would they do that' and 'its right infront of my eyes, this is nearly impossible to run like this on a daily basis, im never playin on here again!'
It pees my off because fulltilt has awsome software design, great functions and lots of player traffic, but i have to stick to sh*t, old school software sites that dont have the foggiest how to run a propper poker site.

buck22 on April 15, 2009

Havn't heard of that site - I'll check i t out - thanks

eldave1 on April 14, 2009

Maybe the guy would have called a healthy re raise, maybe he wouldn't have but my point was that the guy has no room to complain because he priced the guy into the pot. If he had made a bigger raise, gotten the call then got sucked out on I could see his complaint. To be honest with you, I don't play on full tilt, never have. I play on playersonly on the cake network. Not to brag or anything but I am a winning player online as well as live although I do play with a different style online. I don't keep my hand histories or anything but have been playing atleast 20 hours a week on this site for 2 years and can tell you that although Ive taken my share of beats I think my stats would be pretty much what you would expect, not like yours on full tilt. Also, when I am in tourneys or sit n go's and I look a players stats up the guys who are playing poorly usually have a bad roi and the guys playing well usually have a good one. Maybe you should switch to playersonly or another site and give full tilt a rest.

VA Poker on April 13, 2009

Don't really know if the guy knew what was coming or not. VA Poker is dead right if it is a live game - pop the guy 3 or 4 times his raise and he is gone. The problem with FT is that it doesn;t matter - I pretty much am sure that had he raised a $1,000 or even all in he gets the same call and the fella gets the same reward.

Bad moves simply get rewarded on FT and good moves get punished - period.

The classic is when someone shoves all in to a potential set (e.g.,you have A 7 - he has K - 3 and the flop comes K - 5- 6). The guy with the sucky K shoves (a horrible play by any standard) -you tremble and call and as soon as you do the K hits the turn. Peace - out. Never fails. Or the classic I got the underpair - fok I'll shove. You have A-K, they have J-J. You call pre-flop raise, flop comes A - K rag and bam - tehy instant shove. You call - turn of course is J. And it please understand - I don't think it's just poor old eldave - I jsut sit at my computer and call out the rapings for all the players as they come. Keep track - you will see that poor play is paid off.

eldave1 on April 13, 2009

jaywepp, you said the guy made it 200 utg and you raised it to 400, that means even if there were no antes, after your re raise there was atleast around 700 in the pot with your raise and the blinds. It was only 200 for him to call giving him 3.5:1 odds. Which by the way would give him the right odds to call even though you had him dominated. You called significant but it was basically a min raise I don't see why you would do that unless you had kings or aces and wanted him in the hand. Did you really expect a guy raise 200 utg then fold to a raise 200 more? You are going to get a call 9 times out of 10 there reguardless of what the guy is holding. Your claim that the guy somehow knew that his 2 pair was coming doesnt really make any sense. Maybe you should look at your own play instead of claiming people are magically seeing the future. You could have flat called pre flop and maybe you wouldnt have went broke, you could have made a real raise pre flop and he probably would have laid it down. In my opinion your raise was very strange and his call was very standard.

VA Poker on April 13, 2009

I've played on full tilt off and on for a couple years and I've had some of the same experiences that have been posted. However, about six months ago I changed my approach to the game. When I'm in a game with people playing loose and just throwing chips around, I take a more passive approach. Yeah the experts say you should play raise or fold poker, but to what point? Let's say you have AK in early position in a 1/2 nl game. Two people fold, you raise to 7 and get 5 callers and the blinds fold. The flop is A 10 7 rainbow. Pretty safe right? But what is your next move? You don't want to let any draws in, and you know as well as I do that even some people with KJ would call a 15 dollar bet. Say you bet 30. A10 is a possible hand and they would probably raise you, but so would AQ. The point is I avoid building big pots with players who play marginal hands. It's not hard to get paid off so wait until you have more then top pair. Some of these posts are unavoidable, and yeah it sucks, but it's just the nature of the beast. Lastly I want to point out some of the terrible players that you see in the WSOP. I've seen people who were flat out gambling on a lot of hands, and yet some how they make it deep into the tournament. Part of the problem is people get frustrated and make a point to go after them. Just let them come to you. They can't resist. So to wrap this up I want to leave you a guideline that comes right out of Super System. "Don't play big pots without big hands"

Soaring_Eagle on April 10, 2009

I know this might not appear to be the bad beat that we are all talking about... But I think it goes to showing something is fishy in terms of people knowing whats happening.

Playing a 20 sit and go... about 7 folks left... I get ACE Queen off in the BB. Guy in first position raises to 200... goes around the table and no callers... I raise to 400... the guy calls.

Flop comes 5 Q 9 rainbow.... I bet 500... Get a call. G0es to the turn and it's something trandom, but not an overcard... Go all in... He calls... Guy played Queen Nine.

Again, maybe it's being a little too conspiracy theorish.. but you're going to tell me a guy at a 20 table in 1st position calls a re-raise of his queen nine... a significant re-raise at that? Something tells me he knew what was coming.

jaywepp on April 9, 2009

well, I just withdrew my small account from full tilt.

I played in two small tournies tonght ot pass time. I am on button and get an all-in bet from BB with AQ off-suit. I call him since I have watched him play and figure 8s were best, and gotta hold up ONE time on this garbage site. LOL

But each time I have 8s tonight they fail to hold up (this was 2nd small tournament tonight where I busted with 8s). Sure... they lose in live games also sometimes. But I have not played on FRT in a long time, and yet soon as I play there again the same stuff occurs with pp losing to donk bets/calls.

It's just no fun, for me. Really isn't when you can't trust a dealing system.

What guy goes all-in from BB with AQ off-suit in a tournamnet. Not one pro would do that in any tournament. unless they wer heads-up or down to final 4 maybe. Yet Full Rigged continues to reward these donks. You might as well play craps than play on Full Rigged. Good poker or better poker does not count on this site, for much.

Only time it counts is when I bluff or check-raise.

Otherwise in a favorable odds situation, you are ass-backwards on this garbage site!

b.t.w the guy who went all-in had only a few chips more than me so he risked it all for no reason. yet the DONK TILT site rewarded his poor play.

Of course I dodn't have to call. BUT I WAS a 55/45 favorite to win. So it wasn't a bad call. I did have the best hand after all.

IF he had a pp JJ or 10s etc. then it would have been a poor call. But he didn't as I expected fro watching him play. But it didn't matterl this site is programmed to hit the players in the hands so that they create bigger pots and bigger rakes.

Also, I do not think it is good practice.

nitemare6 on April 8, 2009

Fair enough. Good luck at the tables.

mike

mrkromer on April 8, 2009

That's a fair question Sir. Take this as you will. I play live tourneys about five times a week and I make pretty decent money at it (there are several local casinos where I live). I play cheap on-line games as a form of practice (even though I think it is rigged)because it teaches you valuable stuff. For example, you learn to play very close attention to betting patterns since it is the only "tell" available. That carries over nicely to live games. You learn to play with donks (or at least avoid some of the donk pitfalls) since there are so many. You learn odds since you can take your time looking them up (poker academy has a nice tool for this) after hands are played - can't so that live. All that being said - I do not think it is random. Good practice nonetheless.

eldave1 on April 7, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldave1 View Post
And just as a follow-up. - this is exactly what I am talking about. There is one player to go from the bubble. Dama1 calls the preflop raise with QJ, out of position - flop misses him entirely so of course he pushes all in out of position. And of course he wins on the winner as a 94% DOG.

I go out on bubble. Yep - this of course happens. However - the problem is that on FT it happens ALL THE TIME. The inexplicable play follwed by the inevitable reward.


*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Jc Js]
rjf2427 folds
Paolello folds
eldave1 raises to 3,000
PoketAAK folds
sHoA folds
9er_CHECK folds
dama1 calls 2,500
CutUrHeadOff has 15 seconds left to act
CutUrHeadOff folds
*** FLOP *** [3h 7c 5d]
dama1 bets 8,000
eldave1 calls 7,389, and is all in
dama1 shows [Jd Qd]
eldave1 shows [Jc Js]
Uncalled bet of 611 returned to dama1
*** TURN *** [3h 7c 5d] [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [3h 7c 5d Tc] [Qs]
dama1 shows a pair of Queens
eldave1 shows a pair of Jacks
dama1 wins the pot (22,778) with a pair of Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22,778 | Rake 0
Board: [3h 7c 5d Tc Qs]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Jc Js] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 2: PoketAAK folded before the Flop
Seat 3: sHoA folded before the Flop
Seat 4: 9er_CHECK (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: dama1 (small blind) showed [Jd Qd] and won (22,778) with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: CutUrHeadOff (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: rjf2427 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: Paolello folded before the Flop
Still playing, though, aren't you? You must not believe in the rigging too much.

mike

mrkromer on April 7, 2009

And just as a follow-up. - this is exactly what I am talking about. There is one player to go from the bubble. Dama1 calls the preflop raise with QJ, out of position - flop misses him entirely so of course he pushes all in out of position. And of course he wins on the winner as a 94% DOG.

I go out on bubble. Yep - this of course happens. However - the problem is that on FT it happens ALL THE TIME. The inexplicable play follwed by the inevitable reward.


*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Jc Js]
rjf2427 folds
Paolello folds
eldave1 raises to 3,000
PoketAAK folds
sHoA folds
9er_CHECK folds
dama1 calls 2,500
CutUrHeadOff has 15 seconds left to act
CutUrHeadOff folds
*** FLOP *** [3h 7c 5d]
dama1 bets 8,000
eldave1 calls 7,389, and is all in
dama1 shows [Jd Qd]
eldave1 shows [Jc Js]
Uncalled bet of 611 returned to dama1
*** TURN *** [3h 7c 5d] [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [3h 7c 5d Tc] [Qs]
dama1 shows a pair of Queens
eldave1 shows a pair of Jacks
dama1 wins the pot (22,778) with a pair of Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22,778 | Rake 0
Board: [3h 7c 5d Tc Qs]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Jc Js] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 2: PoketAAK folded before the Flop
Seat 3: sHoA folded before the Flop
Seat 4: 9er_CHECK (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: dama1 (small blind) showed [Jd Qd] and won (22,778) with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: CutUrHeadOff (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: rjf2427 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: Paolello folded before the Flop

eldave1 on April 7, 2009

Mike - (1) just for clarification, you are mixing two different posters (4 7 suited and the odds guy) (2) you are just wrong in terms of my post - my conclusions are not based on "perception". They are based on a detailed review of my actual hand histories. e.g., the odds of my overpair holding up against an underpair when 70% or more of the chips are at stake are considerably different, etc.). Admittedly, as I have said before these are my personal stats and do not mean anything in terms of the billions of hands played. But they are my real numbers - not my imagination.

To Buck - yes and the other pattern that continues is the low ROI players that you will see in the top 30 or so - something you defintely do not see live.

eldave1 on April 6, 2009

Im 100% now, had a disaster on my ipoker account and decided i needed a change of site just to cool off and rebuild. I put fiddy on full tilt and the two days on there were hilarious, except this time i sucked out loads.
I probably played about 8 hours total and saw about 4-5 runner runner straights on similar hands (both paired same card but weaker kicker sucked r-r straight)and about 8 AAorKK outdraws, all of them post flop ie definitely <18%.
I had a whale of a time outdrawing AA and flopped trips over 50% of the time i'd say.
I lost a chunk of my broll on ipoker about $1K due to bad luck and a loss of self control (well pi**ed off at myself) but in the 3 months ive been on ipoker i have never seen so many predictable suck outs as the 2 days i spent on FT.
Someone on here wrote that pokertracker didnt pick up anything special about preflop results but if there was some way of tracking 1000's of turns and rivers for all-in situations im so sure theres something fishy with the rng.
Ive posted ideas on here about how we could all be wrong about this, but its not the players or no. of hands seen or compiled, relatively short odds. The difference in feeling when playing ipoker and full tilt is like the difference in rolling a dice and flipping a coin, it feels soooo obvious!
Anyone noticed the pattern of there being quite a large gap of no suckouts and then an unnatural flip to <3%ers, its like the obvious trackable outdraws ie flushes, open end st8 draws all are correct, but there is an abundance of really unlikely outdraws. I think due to this, its under the radar.
It's such a shame cos FT and Stars are the the best sites for graphics, traffic, tournys etc. I would be on there every day if they went straight.

buck22 on April 6, 2009

Yeah, you played 47 suited and the 4th spade hit the board, plus there's a pair on the board. Opponent could easily have boat or better, quit playing garbage and you won't get stacked so often.

The reason you think the odds are tilted more heavily when 70% or more of your stack is in the middle is because of perception. You remember those hands a whole lot more than when the pot was only a couple bucks. Quit getting it all in with a high pocket pair, in the end it's still just a pair.

mike

mrkromer on April 6, 2009

ben playing live tournaments lately. So this morning I go on Full RIgged.d FIRST hand in a small .25/.50 game I get 47s. Flop comes KQxs. I floped a flush with 5 playes in hand. Call the flop. Turn is a 4d. I bet pot. Get one call, one fold. Next card, sure enough is a fourth spade. Guy bets pot, I fold. In live game I might call, but on full rigged you gotta know the guy has a higher spade.

Garbage poker for the most part. LOL

nitemare6 on April 5, 2009

VA - first - to clarify - I am not certain it is rigged as I have no proof. If one only used my hands as the test results they would conclude that it is rigged as the odds do not reflect what one would expect to be statistically valid - so - maybe jsut my hands - but they are a joke. Especially, as I have posted before, in those situations where it is the big play (i.e., 70% or more of your chip stack at stake).

Anyway - i hope it is not rigged. I jsut believe it is - take care

eldave1 on April 4, 2009

eldave, I understand what you are saying and i can clearly see that you are not alone. However, in my opinion a lot of those things you are saying can be explained. There is so much bad play online that many bad beats are bound to happen and when you run really bad you run way worse than you ever will during live games, Ive been there too. I just think the only difference between internet play and live play is the way people play and solid players tend to remember the terrible beats and forget the many many times a horrible play throws you all his chips. As far as the cashout thing goes in my opinion its psychological. Lets say you play 1/2 cash games and you have 1000 in you account and decide to take 500 out. All of the sudden you only have 250 big blinds and you start to play scared because no one wants to bust. Like you said nobody knows for sure and I don't think we will ever be in agreement unless proof comes out one way or another. I just hope you and the other guys who are sure it is rigged will atleast think about what I said, I'm sure I won't convert any of you but its just something to think about.

VA Poker on April 4, 2009

Hey VA - I never claimed it was rigged against me (personally) but rigged to support a certain stlye of play against a certain class of players. The class of players are those who have cashed out see prior posts). The style of play it favors is - well - best called "beginners".

First - many many reasons for rigging including rake, increasing player population, etc. etc - so I won't go into all these.

Keeping in mind that no-one has proof one way or the other because we don't have access to any hand histories but our own - the evidence to support it is rigged is antecdotal. There is no evidence to support it is not - so we are all pissing in the wind to some extent.

What you will see me and many of the other poster claims is that - based on their own experience - out of nowhere they were getting totally different results then they used to - in most cases this followed a cash out. The types of results:

* Could never win a race
* Got cracked by just inexplicable calls (KK cracked by someone who calls your all in with 7-3, etc).
* Get the unavoidable hands (KK in pocket - flop comes K 7 2 - get beat by 10 9 with runner runner straight.
* Solid players become shitty players - I used to be in the 98 percentile - now - can't win a $3 SNG after I cashed. Billy - a prior poster - wins $200K one year and now his stats suck after he cashed. I play live 4 times a week - the good players hit bad luck occassionally - they do not lose their entire game.

So - that is it - I do not think FT is set up to destroy eldave - however, I do not think it is random - I think it is cards dealt with a purpose. AND - I am obviously not alone in that regard.

eldave1 on April 3, 2009

eldave, why does your site pick you to screw and every opponent you play to benefit? Do you think they have a personal vendetta against you? Even if it is rigges someone has to get screwed and someone has to benefit each time which gives you a 50 percent chance to benefit from the rigging. If that hand happened to me I would have cursed myself for callling a pot sized bet on the flop with a straight draw, sometimes that what you get, you could have just laid it down. For the record I'm not hired by a site to discount those who think online poker is rigged. I just don't understand how you guys think they decide who to rig and why you think they are rigging it against you EVERY time. I had AA yesterday in a 1/2 cash game ran up against KK we both were about 300 deep, it all gets in pre flop and he rivered a K. If that would have happened to one of you guys you would be screaming that its rigged. But the fact is he had a 20 percent chance to win, and this time happened to be one of those 20 percent. It happnens, I saw you post a hand on the previous page where you went all in with A rag, your oppenent had J10 and he won. So what? you were 60/40 do you expect to win that everytime. If you think its rigged don't play you don't have to play and come on here everytime you take a beat and cry that its rigged. Again I ask you why you? Why would they screw you over everytime they try to rig a hand? It makes zero sense unless you have a personal beef with one of the programmers or something

VA Poker on April 2, 2009

So true Rusty - they program the action hands - the one I had below is illustrative - turn gives me nut straight and my opponent 2 pair - of course he hits his boat on the river - typical


Full Tilt Poker Game #11420744055: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (85788368), Table 2 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:45:52 ET - 2009/03/30
Seat 1: eqalizer (5,515)
Seat 2: silverfox432 (1,970)
Seat 3: mike10poker (940)
Seat 4: OutOfSpace (210), is sitting out
Seat 5: eldave1 (6,480)
Seat 6: BIGxDUKExSIX (920)
Seat 7: RiggaMorttis (2,325)
Seat 9: hongnhat (3,870)
BIGxDUKExSIX posts the small blind of 50
RiggaMorttis posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [As 9c]
hongnhat calls 100
eqalizer calls 100
silverfox432 folds
mike10poker calls 100
OutOfSpace folds
eldave1 calls 100
BIGxDUKExSIX calls 50
RiggaMorttis checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc Qs Jc]
BIGxDUKExSIX checks
RiggaMorttis checks
hongnhat has 15 seconds left to act
hongnhat bets 600
eqalizer has 15 seconds left to act
eqalizer folds
mike10poker folds
eldave1 calls 600
BIGxDUKExSIX folds
RiggaMorttis folds
*** TURN *** [Tc Qs Jc] [Kd]
hongnhat has 15 seconds left to act
hongnhat bets 1,000
eldave1 calls 1,000
*** RIVER *** [Tc Qs Jc Kd] [Kc]
hongnhat bets 2,170, and is all in
eldave1 calls 2,170
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hongnhat shows [Jh Kh] a full house, Kings full of Jacks
eldave1 mucks
hongnhat wins the pot (8,140) with a full house, Kings full of Jacks
eldave1 is feeling angry
eldave1: jesus foking christ
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8,140 | Rake 0
Board: [Tc Qs Jc Kd Kc]
Seat 1: eqalizer folded on the Flop
Seat 2: silverfox432 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: mike10poker folded on the Flop
Seat 4: OutOfSpace didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: eldave1 (button) mucked [As 9c] - a straight, Ace high
Seat 6: BIGxDUKExSIX (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: RiggaMorttis (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: hongnhat showed [Jh Kh] and won (8,140) with a full house, Kings full of Jacks

eldave1 on March 30, 2009

I'm not going to go into all of the rigged hands that I have had on Full Tilt, but I will go into how the rigging works. It's all pretty clever. Example: cracked Aces. Let's say there are 4 people left in a tourney and the chip stacks are equal. Your big blind and you get pockets aces. Of course this is your golden ticket. Your looking for some action. The first 2 guys fold and the small blind calls. You might do a small raise because you don't want the guy to fold. So let's say the guy had 10,J. The flop is 2, 4, 10. Bamm that guy hits top pair. He goes all in and you call. Domination!! Well, not on Full Tilt because he will hit his 3rd 10. It's virtually gauranteed. Now your out and you lost with pocket aces. The point I am trying to make is that the game is rigged for action. If your on the losing side, it will look like your a 98% favorite but you will lose. I was in a cash game. I had pocket 4's and I was against A,5. The flop came out 4,4,5. After some re-raises we ended up all in. The pot was over $200. OK showdown. The turn was a 5, followed by a 5 on the river. IS that even possible? Now this is where it is scary. I played in a 9-man $100 + $9 tournament. There was a pro in the room. He was highlighted in red and had his own icon. He was involved in 6 all-ins where he was the underdog and won all of them. I never challenged him because I knew the game wouldn't let me win. He was pocket 10's vs pocket aces. 10 on the river. etc.... you get my drift. Full Tilt is the only site that can make you doubt your own poker playing abilities. You think back to your hand and say, " I know I did the right thing!!!"

Rusty34 on March 30, 2009

Hey Guys... I've read some of the posts about IPoker and want to play... but when i go to the site i can't figure out how to start playing for the life of me... am i missing something?

I went to ipoker.com

jaywepp on March 29, 2009

I thought I was going crazy with the constant screws I was getting on fullscrew.. er I mean fulltilt. After reading this board I have now come to realize it is not me and it is true the damn thing is rigged! Last time I was at the casino I walked out with $47 profit in my pocket! And that was playing for only a few hours. I am going to try ipoker since it seems people here have had some good experience with them. Thank you all for posting on fulltilts BS, I and my sanity truly appreciate it!!!

pisceandad on March 26, 2009

I thought I was going crazy with the constant screws I was getting on fullscrew.. er I mean fulltilt. After reading this board I have now come to realize it is not me and it is true the damn thing is rigged! Last time I was at the casino I walked out with $47 profit in my pocket! And that was playing for only a few hours. I am going to try ipoker since it seems people here have had some good experience with them. Thank you all for posting on fulltilts BS, I and my sanity truly appreciate it!!!

pisceandad on March 26, 2009

This is what I mean by not passing the gut check and how final tables on on-line are filled with trash players (unlike live) and how that does not make sense. As a note, this is not a bitter post – just illustrative (I am actually quite happy having won a $10,000 live tourney last night).

Here is the anatomy of the typical FY ass rape. So – I am at the final table of a $3 satellite for $260 seat. I have 29K in chips, the next highest only has 11K. So – I say to my self – I’ll wait till I got a real good one. I basically don’t play a hand for the first 20 minutes.

Ass Rape One

Full Tilt Poker Game #11316121432: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (85030347), Table 2 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:43:27 ET - 2009/03/24
Seat 2: seedy58 (6,390)
Seat 3: eldave1 (26,145)
Seat 4: yancancris (9,450)
Seat 5: badbikerbob (8,120)
Seat 6: Anton_AY (9,590)
Seat 7: hammerinhank87 (3,450)
Seat 8: toplayr (12,880)
Seat 9: scheeraa (3,975)
seedy58 antes 75
eldave1 antes 75
yancancris antes 75
badbikerbob antes 75
Anton_AY antes 75
hammerinhank87 antes 75
toplayr antes 75
scheeraa antes 75
hammerinhank87 posts the small blind of 300
toplayr posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Jh Qh]
scheeraa folds
seedy58 raises to 1,200
eldave1 calls 1,200
yancancris folds
badbikerbob folds
Anton_AY folds
hammerinhank87 folds
toplayr folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc Th 7h]
seedy58 has 15 seconds left to act
seedy58 bets 5,115, and is all in
eldave1 calls 5,115
seedy58 shows [Jd Js]
eldave1 shows [Jh Qh]
*** TURN *** [Qc Th 7h] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [Qc Th 7h 8c] [Jc]
seedy58 shows three of a kind, Jacks
eldave1 shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
seedy58 wins the pot (14,130) with three of a kind, Jacks
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 14,130 | Rake 0
Board: [Qc Th 7h 8c Jc]
Seat 2: seedy58 showed [Jd Js] and won (14,130) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 3: eldave1 showed [Jh Qh] and lost with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 4: yancancris folded before the Flop
Seat 5: badbikerbob folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Anton_AY (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: hammerinhank87 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: toplayr (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: scheeraa folded before the Flop
================================================== =============
So – Seedy (a –45% ROI player) min raises with JJ – if she had raised anywhere in the 3 to 4 times the blind area or more (i.e., she shoved pre-flop) I fold. Not even in the hand. I can the min raise and get a monster flop. Seedy snap shoves all in – I call with top pair (queens) and flush draw. At this point in the hand I am a 93.9% favorite to win. I think to myself what a horrible play by Seedy – if she was going to shove – why not preflop instead of w hen there was an over card and a flush draw on the board – oh well.

Turn is 8 of clubs. No we both pick up gut shots but if the 9 hits I win because I have the Queen. Seedy is down to one card – the Jack of clubs.

River – Jack of Clubs!!!! I lose almost half of my once dominating stack.
================================================== =============
Ass Rape Two

Full Tilt Poker Game #11316167904: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (85030347), Table 2 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:46:05 ET - 2009/03/24
Seat 2: seedy58 (13,380)
Seat 3: eldave1 (19,605)
Seat 4: yancancris (9,225)
Seat 5: badbikerbob (7,895)
Seat 6: Anton_AY (8,165)
Seat 7: hammerinhank87 (2,925)
Seat 8: toplayr (11,755)
Seat 9: scheeraa (7,050)
seedy58 antes 100
eldave1 antes 100
yancancris antes 100
badbikerbob antes 100
Anton_AY antes 100
hammerinhank87 antes 100
toplayr antes 100
scheeraa antes 100
seedy58 posts the small blind of 400
eldave1 posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Tc Ts]
yancancris folds
badbikerbob folds
Anton_AY folds
hammerinhank87 folds
toplayr folds
scheeraa folds
seedy58 calls 400
eldave1 raises to 3,200
seedy58 calls 2,400
*** FLOP *** [6s 4d Ks]
seedy58 bets 10,080, and is all in
eldave1 has 15 seconds left to act
eldave1 has requested TIME
eldave1 folds
Uncalled bet of 10,080 returned to seedy58
seedy58 mucks
seedy58 wins the pot (7,200)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,200 | Rake 0
Board: [6s 4d Ks]
Seat 2: seedy58 (small blind) collected (7,200), mucked
Seat 3: eldave1 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: yancancris folded before the Flop
Seat 5: badbikerbob folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Anton_AY folded before the Flop
Seat 7: hammerinhank87 folded before the Flop
Seat 8: toplayr folded before the Flop
Seat 9: scheeraa (button) folded before the Flop
So – I start with pocket tens in the BB – Seedy (my good friend from earlier limps in on the small blind). I raise 8 times the BB. Seedy of course calls. The flop has one over – the K of spades. Seedy once again snaps shoves all in. I am convinced now that the FT server has decided that I will not be Seedy regardless – even though I think I have her beat – I fold and decide to just avoid her entirely the rest of the way. This is where FT foks with your mind so much (see prior hand) you stop playing normal.
================================================== =========
Ass Rape Three = prologue – this guy “badbikerbob” out of nowhere goes on an ungodly suck-out run – knocks out 5 players. I looked him up – he has a negative 100% ROI – he has played a few tourneys and has never cashed. It’s just heads up now between me an him. The negative ROI of 100% worries me – FT certainly wants to keep him around (at least until he cashes any real money). We go back and forth until this gem.

Full Tilt Poker Game #11316643765: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (85030347), Table 2 - 1200/2400 Ante 300 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:13:07 ET - 2009/03/24
Seat 3: eldave1 (34,200)
Seat 5: badbikerbob (45,800)
eldave1 antes 300
badbikerbob antes 300
badbikerbob posts the small blind of 1,200
eldave1 posts the big blind of 2,400
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Td Ts]
badbikerbob calls 1,200
eldave1 raises to 7,800
badbikerbob calls 5,400
*** FLOP *** [5h 3s 7d]
eldave1 bets 26,100, and is all in
badbikerbob calls 26,100
eldave1 shows [Td Ts]
badbikerbob shows [Ad 3d]
*** TURN *** [5h 3s 7d] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [5h 3s 7d 3c] [4h]
eldave1 shows two pair, Tens and Threes
badbikerbob shows three of a kind, Threes
badbikerbob wins the pot (68,400) with three of a kind, Threes
eldave1 stands up
badbikerbob stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 68,400 | Rake 0
Board: [5h 3s 7d 3c 4h]
Seat 3: eldave1 (big blind) showed [Td Ts] and lost with two pair, Tens and Threes
Seat 5: badbikerbob (small blind) showed [Ad 3d] and won (68,400) with three of a kind, Threes
================================================== =============
So – I raise the pot to badbiker after he limps in. I know I am suppose to shove with 10-10 heads up - but I also know from my FT life that this guy would call me with Ace - Joker. He calls my bet. Perfect flop for tens ( 5 – 3- 7 rainbow)! Okay – shove now and get it over with. I shove – Snap call from biker – he has A 3 suited diamonds but only one diamond on the board. He hit the three, had no draw and thought that it was worth calling for all of his chips an a board with two overs into a guy who had raised pre-flop (donkey). Okay – I’m a 74% favorite to win this one. I read it exactly right – he would have called with his A rag preflop because he was suited and no ace on the flop – only one diamond – yeah>

Turn 3 – he hits a set. Game over – I win $9 dollars and badbiker wins $260.

Good thing I have a live tourney tomorrow.

eldave1 on March 24, 2009

That could be true Buck - but my gut tells me odds are odds whether you play cash or tourney. If your theory was correct, what I would expect to see is that - in most tourneys - I would stack up pretty quickly because I would get all of these horrible calls and win 4 out of five and by the time the tourney whittles down, generally solid players would be left and you would not see the - WTF calls - other then the occassional desperate short stack. Instead, you see a table full of folks with ratings of 60% or less and think how did they get here??

When I play live tourneys (about 4 times a week) there is a good representation of the usual suspects when the tourney gets down to 20% of the field with a few donks sprinkled in once in a while (which we hope for because we are looking for chip mines). When you get to that 20% (live) you do not get calls from folks with A 3 offsuit when you have shoved with KK because they would have not gotten that far in the tourney if that is how they played. On FullTilt - A 3 offsuit is the absolute nuts when it gets down to bubble time if:

a) you have played like shit the entire tourney
b) the guy your calling has QQ or better
c) you have won 2 or 3 absolute donk wins in the last few minutes.

So why does absolute trash players survive on Full Tilt and they do not in live games? Forget the odds - That is the part that gives me a feeling best described by Sulfy in a prior post- "but it's much like a baseball player estimating the speed of the ball when he's at bat or a pianist recognizing the pitch of a note that a song is projecting. When you've dealt with the subjects before, you develop a feeling of being able to approximate"

So - in live - as the tourney progresses the quality of play improves because in general the better players survive longer. At FT - the longer the tourney progresses the more wretched players exist and the odds of you getting beat by the guy who loves 8 - 3 increases. That is what I do not get - what hits the gut wrong. I do not mind losing AA to KK because I understand the call - that's poker and it happens to me live. I do mind losing AA to 10 4 offsuit when I was the first to put chips in the pot.

And again - to beat a dead horse - what myself and most the riggers can't get over as no matter how perfectly you play a hand and how many times you get all the $$ in with what seemed to be a nut flop - you get busted (e.g., AK flops AAK, you shove and 77 calls only to get running 7s). AND - it is the guy who wins crap pot after crap pot (like he has got a sheild around him). I know this is long winded - but on-line should represent live when it comes to the final results even though the game is faster. The qualtiy of play should improve as the field narrows - It don't - AND THAT - does not feel right in the gut.

eldave1 on March 22, 2009

I've been playin loads of cash games recently and have noticed bad beats occur once a day if that, the moment i play a tourny it's a bad beat a minute. Maybe the big factor isnt fulltilt but because you play nothing but tournys which consist mainly of loose, desperate players trying to double up every 15 minutes, also your hands have gotta stand up 10+ times in a row to see a final table. It seems that a combination of the sheer mass of players and frequent blind increases puts a large proportion of the game down to luck.

If you're playing cash and over five games you double up each time then lose the sixth, you'd shrug it off and say 'im up 4 buyins,woohoo!'. Double up five times in a tourny then bubble and suddenly its rigged.

Just a thought

buck22 on March 22, 2009

I played in another live tournament Saturday. Lots of crazy stuff happened that had it hapened on FTP I would have thought it was rigged. Guy had the nut straight on the turn. ALl in with another player with a set of As. Guess what river was.

Yep, the board paired... the guy boated to suckout on the nut straight.

nitemare6 on March 22, 2009

eldave1.... thanx for explaining to nitemare6 the thought process of the events that took place in my aforementioned hand.... you explained my actual thought process and response to the rigged action very well..

to nitemare6.... bro, why do you argue every post i put up? yes, if that kk vs q4 was a one time loss/bad beat then I would chalk it up to just bad timing of cards... but the fact that these examples are just one or two examples of beats that constantly happen on a consistant basis.. I have yet to be knocked out of a tourney as of late with a losing hand going to the flop or river.. Everytime I get knocked out its always by some type of ridiculous beat... as eldave1 has said earlier, you cant play trapping hands online like you can live... then you when you do pick up kk or aa instead of saying cha-ching, i say lets see how imaginitive way i get knocked out now!!!!

anyways nitemare6, just take the hand i posted earlier (kk vs q4) and multiply all the bad beat/statistically dominating hands that lost times a thousand and then tell me that the shit isnt rigged..

billytk01 on March 22, 2009

lol you guys complain then go straight back there, look how long this threads been goin and youre still playing on these rigged to fok sites. Why??!

buck22 on March 20, 2009

Now thre's an example that shows how FRT rigs the deal to create higher rakes.

Had you bet all in you would have gotten only oen player out of pot so the FT rig would have still stolen the pot from you.

nitemare6 on March 19, 2009

I have commented before on how FT gives you the unavoidable hand along with the fact that you cannot play normal. The one below is so typical.

Just minding own business on the BB - no bets by the time it gets to me. I have Q 5 suited. The flop gives me a set of fives. I check. The guy on the has raised on the button five straight times of course he raises this time. Surpisingly the small stack in the SB calls for almost all his chips. Okay I think, I got him easily covered and he probably hit the K. Flush draw at worst but, being a short stack I figure he would have shoved all his chips if he were on the draw.

Now I think, button has checked all his draw hands before, he bet this flop. God damn - he's got a K too. I can slow play this - there is only one out if I read this right - the single remaining King. Okay - I'll just call the SB and get all of the button's chips on the river. Please, anything but a K.

KKKKKKKKKKK - Foking K on the river!

Of course both the small blind and the button had the K.

Not the worst beat by far that anyone would ever see. But it is so illustrative of this site and how the hands are set up. (A) I am not even in the hand if I am not the BB and everyone limps to me. (B) I am out of the hand other then the fact I flopped a foking set (C) The flop - of course - hits the all of the three players in the hand (D)I make the exact right read (e) I get the inevitable one-outer foking.

I know readers would say you blew it - you should have shoved on the flop. In Live - yep. At FT - I know I am getting called anyway - the shove gives me no protection and no folding equity.
================================================

Full Tilt Poker Game #11221026798: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (84360680), Table 2 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:54:03 ET - 2009/03/19
Seat 1: A3LegdDog (710)
Seat 2: Laturnus (6,060)
Seat 4: yancancris (5,160)
Seat 5: _kr1ter_ (4,260)
Seat 6: youlookingood (1,095)
Seat 7: eldave1 (5,600)
Seat 8: r10ABEL (5,960)
youlookingood posts the small blind of 100
eldave1 posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Qs 5c]
r10ABEL folds
A3LegdDog folds
Laturnus folds
yancancris folds
_kr1ter_ calls 200
youlookingood calls 100
eldave1 checks
*** FLOP *** [5h Ks 5s]
youlookingood checks
eldave1 checks
_kr1ter_ bets 800
youlookingood calls 800
eldave1 calls 800
*** TURN *** [5h Ks 5s] [Ad]
youlookingood bets 95, and is all in
eldave1 calls 95
_kr1ter_ calls 95
*** RIVER *** [5h Ks 5s Ad] [Kd]
eldave1 checks
_kr1ter_ bets 1,000
eldave1 calls 1,000
*** SHOW DOWN ***
_kr1ter_ shows [Kh 9s] a full house, Kings full of Fives
eldave1 mucks
_kr1ter_ wins the side pot (2,000) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
youlookingood shows [Kc Th] a full house, Kings full of Fives
youlookingood ties for the main pot (1,643) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
_kr1ter_ ties for the main pot (1,642) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,285 Main pot 3,285. Side pot 2,000. | Rake 0
Board: [5h Ks 5s Ad Kd]
Seat 1: A3LegdDog didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Laturnus didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: yancancris didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: _kr1ter_ (button) showed [Kh 9s] and won (3,642) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
Seat 6: youlookingood (small blind) showed [Kc Th] and won (1,643) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
Seat 7: eldave1 (big blind) mucked [Qs 5c] - a full house, Fives full of Kings
Seat 8: r10ABEL didn't bet (folded)

eldave1 on March 19, 2009

I posted bout a few months ago about changing from stars to ipoker and the difference in graphs is hilarious.

STARS- about 10,000 hands of $10 sit n go's
results: -$50 Profit/hr: -$0.5

IPOKER- 6068 hands of 0.25/0.50 cash games
results: +$829.40 Profit/hr: +$13.66

The fact the stake on ipoker is 5x higher and still not on the same planet as my stars stats is pretty sick. I'm aware according to stat sites that you need 9,900billion hands before you get an inkling of how one fairs at poker, but this is a pretty damn good idea of where my bankroll is heading on both sites.

I watched a tourny on FT the other day, and it has been so long since ive seen such BS. Every high pair was gettin cracked, runner runner str8s. It was hilarious.

buck22 on March 19, 2009

Lost my computer drive so have not posted for awhile. Interesting threads.

Does not matter if it is one hand or a thousand - the response is always going to be the same ("ain't statistically valid").

Not to speak for Billy, but if he has had my experience, I think he was thinking something like this:

1. Dude bets out of position - Hmmmm - I know I have pocket KK and should raise, but the last 3,500 times I have shoved preflop with this hand I get called by some 20% ROI player with ace rag and lose with an ace on the flop.

2. Okay - smooth call - if the typical ace comes I'll fold.

3. Great flop - the Full Tilt fok me server must be on the fritz today.

4. What - he bets? Overpair maybe? Is this guy legit - I'll bet the bastard has tens - maybe jacks. Maybe even hit the rag part of his ace. Okay - one more just to make sure it ain't the ace rag curse. Call.

5. Turn - Q - big bet by the fella - good - I finally got the read - AQ or KQ - good time to shove - he's crushed.

6. WTF?????? Q friggin 4 - he raised in mid position with Q friggin 4? Foking idiot - what is is poker ranking - 51% - foking figures. Come on - I still got any 2, 9 or K -

7. River 4 - super - just foking super, wouldn't have mattered if I had three aces - was going down.

The moral of the story is this. There is a commune of us that have been foked so many times that we have stopped playing poker (at least on this site) according to the book because NO MATTER HOW WE PLAY A HAND - we are screwed. I can't count the times I have had a hand like Bill's where I played it traditional - raise - get - reraised - tell myself - well, if he has Aces - that's poker - only to have the dude call an all in with some horrible hand and suck out anyway. What happens here - (okay - in my personal experience) you are gonna get the goodbye hand when FT has had enough of ya. You'll flop the set of Kings to be beat by runner runner flush by some guy who called with 10 3 suited, etc. etc.

When I play live and get KK or AA the cashier register in my head goes cha-ching!!! At Fulltilt - I hear the "here we go again" This is the hand they are sending me out on.

I nevered really cared about losing or winning on FT - I make my money in live games. What I wanted was a good decent place to practice poker. That, it is not. There was a period of time where my live game went in the tank because my FT experience was influencing my play- I had to detox - took some time but I got back to normal.

And yes - you all should keep track of all your all ins. Compare your stats with hands at critical moments (70% of your stack or better) and see if the odds play out correctly - they never have for me - maybe it's just me.

I do believe that one day there will be the 60 minutes story on the rig - maybe I am just crazy -we'll see.

eldave1 on March 17, 2009

Losing to Q4 with Ks one time doesn't prove anything... and I think these sites are totally corrupt and rigged. But you continue to give examples that don't support the case for rigging.

I played in a live tournmament a few weeks ago. I went in with Qs and short stack had to call - and went all in, with 93o. The flop was 93X so I thought it was over. On the river I hit a Q.

Now if that happend on full Riggexd tilt we'd all be screaming that it was rigged.

So a guy calling with Q4 and hittign a full house or trips is not supportive that Full Rigged IS s rigged.

There are better examples.

nitemare6 on March 16, 2009

Sulfysulf.... You said everything Ive been thinking and claiming for while now...

Also realize that these pokersites will continue to run fraudelant and skewed software until online gaming is monitored by a legit gaming commision and unfortunately this will only happen when online poker is legalized and run out of the United States... until then it will stay corrupt where anyone can win... Not only is this true with full tilt but with poker stars, absolute joker.. etc...

Played Pokerstars 1.5 mil guarantee tonight and got busted out with my KK losing to Q4....

PokerStars Game #26004452399: Tournament #145821818, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (400/800) - 2009/03/15 19:46:13 ET
Table '145821818 114' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: BodogMaven (65495 in chips)
Seat 2: dobbbber (44321 in chips)
Seat 3: rdesch (19640 in chips)
Seat 4: Billytk01 (25073 in chips)
Seat 5: mtsacoman (7515 in chips)
Seat 6: Z@£D0 (47602 in chips)
Seat 7: wildelephant (35759 in chips)
Seat 8: pzane (7885 in chips)
Seat 9: Krumpir (14550 in chips)
BodogMaven: posts the ante 50
dobbbber: posts the ante 50
rdesch: posts the ante 50
Billytk01: posts the ante 50
mtsacoman: posts the ante 50
Z@£D0: posts the ante 50
wildelephant: posts the ante 50
pzane: posts the ante 50
Krumpir: posts the ante 50
mtsacoman: posts small blind 400
Z@£D0: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Billytk01 [Kc Kh]
wildelephant: folds
pzane: folds
Krumpir: folds
BodogMaven: folds
dobbbber: raises 1200 to 2000
rdesch: folds
Billytk01: calls 2000
mtsacoman: folds
Z@£D0: folds
*** FLOP *** [2d 9s 4h]
dobbbber: bets 1800
Billytk01: calls 1800
*** TURN *** [2d 9s 4h] [Qs]
dobbbber: bets 5600
Billytk01: raises 15623 to 21223 and is all-in
dobbbber: calls 15623
*** RIVER *** [2d 9s 4h Qs] [4s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dobbbber: shows [Qc 4c] (a full house, Fours full of Queens)
Billytk01: shows [Kc Kh] (two pair, Kings and Fours)
dobbbber collected 51696 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***

billytk01 on March 15, 2009

I played low level SNGs (5 and 10) and the occasional cash game on Full Tilt. I can speak specifically on my experiences with the SNG and my theory as to what's going on. Throughout my life, I've always excelled in math. In college, I studied multiple Probability/Stat courses and I've passed the Probability actuary exam. So, I have always been attracted to Poker because of its close relationship to the laws behind these subjects. Intuitively, I've sensed a strong advantage given to less-skilled players...when playing on Full Tilt. I don't have the data to run numbers...but it's much like a baseball player estimating the speed of the ball when he's at bat or a pianist recognizing the pitch of a note that a song is projecting. When you've dealt with the subjects before, you develop a feeling of being able to approximate.

Now, I am interested in one poster's claim of how his pocket K's have performed in "critical" showdowns. I'd like to compare the theoretical odds he had vs. the real odds that he's claimed...along with test that difference with a confidence interval to see if there is a statistically significant difference in the means. Maintaining the odds on the whole but then skewing the "critical" showdowns would be a brilliant scam because most people wouldn't think to dissect the data into two groups...unless he also had the intuitive sense to suspect this specific scam.

Other posters have made claims that when money is taken off, bad beats seem to noticeably rise, whereas when money is put into the site, a lucky streak is the reward. This actually fits perfectly with a theory that I had originally developed in my mind before reading these posts.

The reality of poker is that the majority of players are poor players. It's much like sex in that 20% of the people are making 80% of it. So, imagine if a poker site allowed this to continue...what would happen? Well, eventually, the poor players would either run out of money or stop posting more money...and the good players would take all the money and horde it. So, what happens? 80% of the people no longer play and now the site only contains 20% of it's original size...meaning it only pulls 20% of its original profits in rake. This seems like a pretty poor business model doesn't it? Most businesses want to increase profits not lose them. This is an interesting long-term problem because it's not a consequence of anything to do with normal business conditions, where you worry about losing market share to a competitor...but rather the competitor is your own customer (the gap between the good and bad player) and the reality of poker odds. So, how does one avoid this conundrum? Answer: Give an advantage to the weaker players...through more forgiving software. So, what does this do? It allows the poor players to keep more money than they should...and hence keep playing games...and therefore maintain the original rake. And who foots the bill? The good players who otherwise would win that money. So, essentially, the poor players are upgraded to slightly below mediocre players and the good players are downgraded to slightly above mediocre players. Do you see an advantage here? Now, the good players continue to play to get the results that they know they should eventually get...and the poor players get a heightened sense of belonging...that they are just around the corner from making real money with their poor play. So, not as many people run out of money nearly as fast as they should...and therefore, the site continues to roll in the rake profits. Now, this also fits with the deposit/withdrawal anomaly that some people have noticed. Who do you think is typically depositing money? Answer: A poor player, who even with the software advantage, is losing in the long run...so, he's rewarded with a nice lucky streak. And who is typically withdrawling money? Answer: Well the good player who is still squeezing out profits...and so he is punished with a bad luck streak. Monitoring the deposit/withdrawal schedules of players is one way to identify the difference between the players (in reality). Which, I'm sure it gets more and more difficult for Full Tilt to identify who is who...since their software is designed to move everyone towards the same ability level...or better to say, results level...making it hard to tell the good from the bad by looking at their stats. This of course is just a theory...but if it's true and if enough good players realize the bias...and quit playing...the whole scheme gets harder and harder to maintain...until it finally falls apart. But essentially what I'm saying is that it's in the Poker site's best interest to skew the results towards the bad players...so as to retain these players and maintain their rake profits. What do others think about this?

sulfysulf on March 14, 2009

I have played online poker at Absolute Joker and Full Scam and will agree with your comments fully. Just today I had K-K preflop and go all in only to be called by Q-2 and guess what the flop is ..... 2-2-6. I'm no odds expert but I'm fairly certain there is a 95%+ chance of me winning, but because my bankroll is under $50, this is probably why I lost.

Also if you haven't seen, there are people over in Europe hacking poker software to the point where they can see everyone's hole cards. This makes online poker no fun anymore.

I even decided to try out an Omaha hi/lo poker bot since this game is more mathematically predictable. Of course though since I did not buy in for more than the minimum of $50, I slowly lost money.

When it comes down to it, don't count on winning in online poker as a source of income. Go out and get a job first, and then find some friends for a home game every week.

Now that I've traded on the options market and online poker scams, I think it's time for me to save my money and trust no one =)

Dave0116 on March 11, 2009

I don't think so. Not really. They're given the following guidelines.... If a player is playing slightly over his bankroll, for example say a player is playing a $5 sit and go with a less than $200 bankroll, then that player should receive a negative expected ROI of roughly -10%.

The hands that the programmers setup to ensure a negative ROI to low bankrolls aren't clever at all. They tend to play themselves.... Obvious raising or calling hands at appropriate times, and flops that ensure a call by the winning hand etc.

Of course fulltilt cannot control what a player does..... you'll win some setups because a player folded a hand the software predetermined him to win.

The whole thing really comes to light at final tables in multi-table action. It's rather pathetic. the programmers aren't clever, and neither is management. It's about their bottomline rake.

xmrmrx on March 4, 2009

Yes - you can look at your hand history (I use Poker Tracker) and you will see over the thousands of hands that you have played that the odds hold up (for example. if I look at pocket AA for all my hands they won 76%). HOWEVER. In my case I disected my hand histories into two different categories :

"Crippling Hand" - a hand that cost you all or at least 70% of your stack.

"Late Tourney hands" (less then 20 percent of the field is left)

In the above two scenarios - all of a sudden the odds change -AA only holds up half the time, I lose most of the hands where I am the favorite at the time when all the chips go in and generally lose when I am the dog. Why would the odds change???? If AA wins 75% overall - it should be the same for at the beginning of the tourney and the end of the tourney and the same regardless of the amount of your stack at risk. BUT IT DON'T. To me, this is the insidious part of the rigging. To top it off -and this is where it is totally different then live - at the critical moments of the tournament is where you get the "are you foking kidding" (you must of known what cards were coming)" calls. (e.g., AK called by k-7 offsuit, etc.) When I play live - by the time you get down to 20 percent of the field - most the nonsense callers are long gone - not at Full Tilt - there are actually more of them.

Late in the tourney is also the time of the tournament when you can call the cards that are going to come. If I have pocket JJ and the flop is A of clubs, King of clubs and jack of diamonds giving me a set and I bet big and get the normal two callers - I know the exact card that is coming on the turn (say it with me now - the Queen of Clubs - that would be the one card given donkey 1 the nut gut shot straight and donkey 2 the flush with the 2 and 3 of clubs he had in the hole.

On-line poker is the only form of gambling I have expereinced where you actually get worse the more you play. Makes real sense.

I play live 4 to 5 times a week and yes there are bad beats and yes there are donkeys and yes there are suck outs - but I never leave the casino with that sick "I just got foked" feeling in my gut you get from Full Tilt because I know that over time at a live game things square up and eventually donks lose. I have simply lost the ability to stomach the on-line rigging anymore. And it ain't the money - I got more then enough - it is just the obvious rigging that is going on that makes you cringe. You know the truth - no matter how you played - NO MATTER - you were going to lose. It was just FT determining when the anvil was going to fall.

Anway - long story long - when you look at your stats - ignore everything other then showdowns where at least 70 percent of your stack is at risk - look at the amount of favs you loose and look at the hands you are being called by for all the c hips - you will want to vomit.

eldave1 on February 27, 2009

I'm am a net positive live cash game and tournament player up to $10/$20 (all games), but consitently lose on fulltilt playing $5 sit and go's (with a $200 bankroll).

The guys are crooks, but justify their action because the beats aren't going to them, the beats are going to other paying customers. They're interested in maximizing their rake, and in slightly growing healthy bankrolls, those rolls fulltilt management deems are playing in appropriate cash game/sg as compared to their bankroll. While slightly reducing lessor sized bankrolls their rake will naturally increase. the winners are happy and play more, the low bankrolls pony up more $$ or quit.

Like too many businesses they're bottom feeders, and have correctly surmized that the amount of resistance they'll see from this group will be minimal.

If you place in a $200 bankroll and play in $1-$2 sit and go's exclusively you'll do fine. If you dare to move up (say to $5 s/g's with this size bankroll), you will eventually be pummeled. Odds will be in the favor of the higher bankrolls (those with say $1000 bankroll at $5 s/g level). It's just good business. They want to encourage people to move up to higher limits creating more rake for them. If you deposit $1000 and play in $5 s/g's exclusively you'll do fine. Dare to move up to $20 and you will be pummeled.

Their practices are unethical as hell, and makes the game a complete sham. There is no way that on line gaming should be legal. The people that run these businesses are bottomline motivated, and will take every possible means of increasing their own bottom line. There is no online gaming regulation, therefore their biased programming isn't illegal. Still, it's corrupt and contemptable as hell.

xmrmrx on February 27, 2009

Try cash games LIVE folks. Online poker is rigged.

xmrmrx on February 27, 2009

Dammit! All in preflop and getting beat happens all the time! The worst shapes are about 4 to 1 and in every tournament of 1500 people, how many all ins do you expect to win? If you gotta survive 10 or 11 all ins your gonna take lots of beats.

I personally don't play FT or stars cos for whatever reason, results aint right, but the over-aggresiveness of players on these sites means you gonna be flipping alot of coins. Suggestion, play cash games, grind them with a bankroll, cash games are a tighter game with less flips and more skill-rewarded play. Whatever site im on, if im in a multitable tourny over 500, i assume im going out because you cant win by skill alone, your hands have gotta stand up, that takes luck or playin alot of tournys.

buck22 on February 27, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldave1 View Post
I Blame myself - I went one more time. I am so stupid -guy caught runner runner 10 10 to win. This was the third straight time I went out of a tourney as a 98% fav after the flop. As a note - I got short stacked in this tourney after being the chip leader by having AK suited beaten by 4-2 off suit - flop A, K 4 - I shove and the foker calls with 4-2 and hits 4 on turn. A few hands later I am out with the hand below (ps - another 14 percent ROI fella)

To the "non-riggers" of the world who would offer suggestions on how to play hands differently. Don't - BECAUSE - it don't foking matter. If I play AA as all ins - cracked. If I bet 5 times the BB - cracked - slowplay - cracked. If I play suited connectors -I'll hit the straight to be beat by the river flush (and almost always runner runner). If I play ABC poker (just the top ten hands) I will lose 80% of them. The last 30 tourneys that I got busted on FT I was the fav - foking 30!!!!!!. And yes - you can just call out the cards like you are the amazing preston. Oh - he has 8 4 off suit and you flop a set of fives, Call it with me - turn 6 river 7 - see ya - would not want to be ya.

=================================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #10835682002: $8 + $0.80 Tournament (81547731), Table 6 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:18:39 ET - 2009/02/25
Seat 1: orla (26,179)
Seat 2: rocky556 (21,089)
Seat 3: eldave1 (3,645)
Seat 4: Lakshmi78 (10,583)
Seat 5: booker_tg (23,656)
Seat 6: coconacueca (11,060)
Seat 7: blondie lau (21,907)
Seat 8: poart (10,164)
orla antes 75
rocky556 antes 75
eldave1 antes 75
Lakshmi78 antes 75
booker_tg antes 75
coconacueca antes 75
blondie lau antes 75
poart antes 75
rocky556 posts the small blind of 300
eldave1 posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ah 6h]
Lakshmi78 folds
booker_tg folds
coconacueca folds
blondie lau folds
poart folds
orla folds
rocky556 raises to 2,400
eldave1 raises to 3,570, and is all in
rocky556 calls 1,170
eldave1 shows [Ah 6h]
rocky556 shows [Th Jh]
*** FLOP *** [6d 6c Kh]
*** TURN *** [6d 6c Kh] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [6d 6c Kh Ts] [Td]
eldave1 shows a full house, Sixes full of Tens
rocky556 shows a full house, Tens full of Sixes
rocky556 wins the pot (7,740) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,740 | Rake 0
Board: [6d 6c Kh Ts Td]
Seat 1: orla (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: rocky556 (small blind) showed [Th Jh] and won (7,740) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
Seat 3: eldave1 (big blind) showed [Ah 6h] and lost with a full house, Sixes full of Tens
Seat 4: Lakshmi78 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: booker_tg folded before the Flop
Seat 6: coconacueca folded before the Flop
Seat 7: blondie lau folded before the Flop
Seat 8: poart folded before the Flop
*you know why you lost right? its because you were the smaller stack.. Full Rigged always favors the bigger stack... what a joke... unreal... that is prolly one of the sickest twists ive seen online...

billytk01 on February 27, 2009

to nitemare6... I clearly explained why I called in that spot and what the BB was doing (pushing weak all night)... Is this hand a total classic rigging like im use to seeing? NO.. but is it the same typical reward the donkey who constantly pushes at any spot in tourney? Yes.. I would of loved to sit back, relax and pick another spot to call or push all my chips but at that point/deep in the tourney I could not afford to not make the call based on the BB previous plays and due to the chip count position I was in at that point in the tourney...

billytk01 on February 27, 2009

What do you think full tilt managers do all day? Sit around and dream up ways to make the online poker experience the best it could possibly be? (That's a joke.)

I'm certain full tilt targets low bankrolls. If one's bankroll falls below say $40, you'll be sure to receive MORE than your fair share of bad beats, poor stud and razz starting hands and coolers. Algorithmically forcing this kind of action upon a good regular player will do one of two things. He'll buy in bigger or quit.

Take the later folks. It's rigged. I doubt what they do is illegal, just unethical as hell. Just say no to online poker. Play live if you don't want to get stiffed.

xmrmrx on February 27, 2009

I Blame myself - I went one more time. I am so stupid -guy caught runner runner 10 10 to win. This was the third straight time I went out of a tourney as a 98% fav after the flop. As a note - I got short stacked in this tourney after being the chip leader by having AK suited beaten by 4-2 off suit - flop A, K 4 - I shove and the foker calls with 4-2 and hits 4 on turn. A few hands later I am out with the hand below (ps - another 14 percent ROI fella)

To the "non-riggers" of the world who would offer suggestions on how to play hands differently. Don't - BECAUSE - it don't foking matter. If I play AA as all ins - cracked. If I bet 5 times the BB - cracked - slowplay - cracked. If I play suited connectors -I'll hit the straight to be beat by the river flush (and almost always runner runner). If I play ABC poker (just the top ten hands) I will lose 80% of them. The last 30 tourneys that I got busted on FT I was the fav - foking 30!!!!!!. And yes - you can just call out the cards like you are the amazing preston. Oh - he has 8 4 off suit and you flop a set of fives, Call it with me - turn 6 river 7 - see ya - would not want to be ya.

=================================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #10835682002: $8 + $0.80 Tournament (81547731), Table 6 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:18:39 ET - 2009/02/25
Seat 1: orla (26,179)
Seat 2: rocky556 (21,089)
Seat 3: eldave1 (3,645)
Seat 4: Lakshmi78 (10,583)
Seat 5: booker_tg (23,656)
Seat 6: coconacueca (11,060)
Seat 7: blondie lau (21,907)
Seat 8: poart (10,164)
orla antes 75
rocky556 antes 75
eldave1 antes 75
Lakshmi78 antes 75
booker_tg antes 75
coconacueca antes 75
blondie lau antes 75
poart antes 75
rocky556 posts the small blind of 300
eldave1 posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ah 6h]
Lakshmi78 folds
booker_tg folds
coconacueca folds
blondie lau folds
poart folds
orla folds
rocky556 raises to 2,400
eldave1 raises to 3,570, and is all in
rocky556 calls 1,170
eldave1 shows [Ah 6h]
rocky556 shows [Th Jh]
*** FLOP *** [6d 6c Kh]
*** TURN *** [6d 6c Kh] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [6d 6c Kh Ts] [Td]
eldave1 shows a full house, Sixes full of Tens
rocky556 shows a full house, Tens full of Sixes
rocky556 wins the pot (7,740) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,740 | Rake 0
Board: [6d 6c Kh Ts Td]
Seat 1: orla (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: rocky556 (small blind) showed [Th Jh] and won (7,740) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
Seat 3: eldave1 (big blind) showed [Ah 6h] and lost with a full house, Sixes full of Tens
Seat 4: Lakshmi78 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: booker_tg folded before the Flop
Seat 6: coconacueca folded before the Flop
Seat 7: blondie lau folded before the Flop
Seat 8: poart folded before the Flop

eldave1 on February 25, 2009

sorry Billy - that's not rigged - how is that rigged? a guy has A7 ?

In live tournament I had KJ. Flop was xJQ. Due to the lights (it was being filmed for cable) I didn't see that it was a J. I forget if I bet or checked. But next card was 6 and I bet 4000 into pot of 5400 after a check. Guy then check-bets 6000 more. So I put him on a Q. I folded (probably not a good move) and he showed pp 10s.

What is curious is why the BB donk called with A7s. Maybe he didn't put you on an A. What is more cuious is why you called. I would not have called with KJo when I was sitting pretty. Why not wait until you have cards and don't get an all-in raise.

I think it was not good play on your part.

nitemare6 on February 25, 2009

sorry Billy - that's not rigged - how is that rigged? a guy has pp As???

In live youtnament I had KJ. Flop was xJQ. Dues to the lights (it was being filmed for cable) I didn't see the J. I forget if I bet or checked. But nezt card was x and I bet 4000 into pot of 5400 after a check. Guy then check-bets 5000 more. So I put him on a Q. I folded (probably not a good move) and he showed pp 10s.

What is curious is whuy the BB donk called with A7s. Maybe he didn't put oyu on an A.

Further why did you call.

I would not have called with KJo when I was sitting pretty.

Why not wait until you have cards and don't get an all-in raise.

I think it was not good play on your part.

nitemare6 on February 25, 2009

well since ive closed my Full Rigged account I have been playing at Joker Stars.. and same bs happening there too.... Im deep in the Sunday 1.5mil guarantee, I make standard raise with kjo before cutoff seat and BB pushes all in (BB has been pushing weak all night so I honestly felt I had the best hand..) heres how it played out... as usual 3 outer on river is hit... what a joke...

PokerStars Game #25248048210: Tournament #140492030, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (2000/4000) - 2009/02/22 20:32:24 ET
Table '140492030 1081' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Sinsim (50324 in chips)
Seat 2: KillBroccoli (29354 in chips)
Seat 3: DcHustlers (59275 in chips)
Seat 4: frenchfish94 (82954 in chips)
Seat 5: zappdanko (42400 in chips)
Seat 6: shoes33 (141950 in chips)
Seat 7: Billytk01 (52805 in chips)
Seat 8: Creatiff111 (181271 in chips)
Seat 9: CR711 (45063 in chips)
Sinsim: posts the ante 400
KillBroccoli: posts the ante 400
DcHustlers: posts the ante 400
frenchfish94: posts the ante 400
zappdanko: posts the ante 400
shoes33: posts the ante 400
Billytk01: posts the ante 400
Creatiff111: posts the ante 400
CR711: posts the ante 400
CR711: posts small blind 2000
Sinsim: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Billytk01 [Kh Jc]
KillBroccoli: folds
DcHustlers: folds
frenchfish94: folds
zappdanko: folds
shoes33: folds
Billytk01: raises 5000 to 9000
Creatiff111: folds
CR711: folds
Sinsim: raises 40924 to 49924 and is all-in
Billytk01: calls 40924
*** FLOP *** [5h Qd Js]
*** TURN *** [5h Qd Js] [2h]
*** RIVER *** [5h Qd Js 2h] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sinsim: shows [7h Ah] (a pair of Aces)
Billytk01: shows [Kh Jc] (a pair of Jacks)
Sinsim collected 105448 from pot
Billytk01 said, "rigged"
Billytk01 said, "rigged"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 105448 | Rake 0
Board [5h Qd Js 2h As]
Seat 1: Sinsim (big blind) showed [7h Ah] and won (105448) with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: KillBroccoli folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: DcHustlers folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: frenchfish94 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: zappdanko folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: shoes33 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Billytk01 showed [Kh Jc] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: Creatiff111 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: CR711 (small blind) folded before Flop

billytk01 on February 22, 2009

Played in live tournament yesterday. 54 players; finished 9th.

Last hand my AK and all in as short stack. Guy calls w/AQos. Flop is xxQ. Now if this had been on Full Tilt, I would be yelling rigged. Earlier hand I'm in with pp Qs, ss calls all in with 93os and other guy comes in with J9 or 10. Flop is 93x. Turn is 6. Guess what river s ? Yep a full rigged tilt Q - for trips. Two-outer

I knock-out two players and become chip leader.

nitemare6 on February 22, 2009

Fulltilt isn't rigged, ive been playing it for years and ive never had any problems.lol, only kidding, ive lost sh** loads on there, my sharkscope is so sick. I was grinding $13 stakes , platowed and lost on stars for 2 months, then changed to ipoker and its steadily increasing, playing $55 within a month,lol.

Remember guys that its when your money goes in thats the important factor. Eladave1 youve had some sick beats but when you write your trips were beaten by runner runner, thats misleading, you lost 99 vs AQ, bout 42% time thas gonna happen, even if the board comes 99A A A its still not a bad beat, its a lost coin flip.

Think you should all play live till the laws sorted, atleast you got sh** load of live games about. I kept going back to these 2 sites and every time the consistency of beats is rediculous, dont drive yourself insane, if you aint winning long-term somewhere, you leave whatever reasons or suspicions you have.Good luck

buck22 on February 21, 2009

standard.

mrkromer on February 20, 2009

to eldave... SPEECHLESS..... what else can i possibly add to this? such a joke!!!!

billytk01 on February 19, 2009

Well goodness - I just spent my last 3 dollars on a satellite. It was jsut great - below is the hand I went out on - on the bubble of course - see - I made the mistake of flopping a set - after the flop, the big stack (of course) caught runner runner for a straight. I knew I was in trouble because after the flop I was only a 97% FOKING favorite. I guess I should learn to lay those down - good luck to all - I hope they catch these crooks

Full Tilt Poker Game #10733756437: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (80828766), Table 3 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:49:08 ET - 2009/02/19
Seat 1: eldave1 (7,440)
Seat 2: imrdmw (4,640)
Seat 3: lululacrepe (15,925)
Seat 4: brutATwork (21,356)
Seat 6: Body2177 (11,184)
Seat 7: Bassnbird (21,295)
Seat 8: CHARGER55 (20,415)
Seat 9: datec4 (12,245)
eldave1 antes 100
imrdmw antes 100
lululacrepe antes 100
brutATwork antes 100
Body2177 antes 100
Bassnbird antes 100
CHARGER55 antes 100
datec4 antes 100
Body2177 posts the small blind of 400
Bassnbird posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [9c 9s]
CHARGER55 folds
datec4 folds
eldave1 raises to 3,200
imrdmw folds
lululacrepe folds
brutATwork folds
Body2177 raises to 11,084, and is all in
Bassnbird folds
eldave1 calls 4,140, and is all in
Body2177 shows [Qh Ac]
eldave1 shows [9c 9s]
Uncalled bet of 3,744 returned to Body2177
*** FLOP *** [Qc Js 9h]
*** TURN *** [Qc Js 9h] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [Qc Js 9h Ts] [Kc]
Body2177 shows a straight, Ace high
eldave1 shows a straight, King high
Body2177 wins the pot (16,280) with a straight, Ace high
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 16,280 | Rake 0
Board: [Qc Js 9h Ts Kc]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [9c 9s] and lost with a straight, King high
Seat 2: imrdmw folded before the Flop
Seat 3: lululacrepe folded before the Flop
Seat 4: brutATwork (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Body2177 (small blind) showed [Qh Ac] and won (16,280) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 7: Bassnbird (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: CHARGER55 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: datec4 folded before the Flop

eldave1 on February 19, 2009

That could be it Billy - last time I emailed FT they still had not had an independent audit of their RNG performed (a pretty simple task if you ask me) - that means even if they are well intended - that's a stretch - they really don't know if the RNG produces the expected results.

As a side note - when most folks want to have you look at your hand stats you have to do it in a FT type of way. As an example:

If I looked at all my pocket KK - I won the hand 70% of the time. HOWEVER - that includes all hands - even those that went uncontested (i.e., no one called). Take those out and then I am down to 60%. Now here is the FT magic. Divide those remaining hands into two stacks (1) hands that I call "Crippling" - i.e., you have 70% to 100% of your stack at risk to (2) all others hands. - God damn - in the first - "crippling" category
KK only wins 30% of the time.

There is no valid reason for the stats to change -hands are hands.

I think I went about 30 straight tourneys where I went out as the favorite at the time all the chips went in - I would have been delighted jsut to win half of those - oh well - off toe a live game today - yes!

eldave1 on February 18, 2009

to eldave1.... Im beginning to think that you may be right. I dont think that people can see hole cards but I do think that the rng algorythm has been cracked/comprimised, its the only explanation.. especially when you post results like that.. Ive personally seen this happen more times than I can count, its a joke...

well.. I finally closed my full tilt account again for the last time.. so now ive began to focus on playing Poker Stars but the garbage is just is bad... i swear these sites are rigged.. its a joke.. I have yet to be knocked out of a tourney pushing with the worst hand...

this happened on Pstars tonight... once again AA vs 44 and.... as usual AA cracked cuz I was the smaller stack... such a joke...

PokerStars Game #25066428193: Tournament #140492032, $150+$12 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2009/02/17 21:54:17 ET
Table '140492032 96' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Billytk01 (2000 in chips)
Seat 2: Donk Crusher (5655 in chips)
Seat 3: Vitalo (1315 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: jimmyv52 (4020 in chips)
Seat 5: Pokerl)eviL (2165 in chips)
Seat 6: toneland (3255 in chips)
Seat 7: m0_m0ney69 (2415 in chips)
Seat 8: Zackattak13 (5355 in chips)
Seat 9: ZooterCHUBBS (3825 in chips)
Vitalo: posts small blind 50
jimmyv52: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Billytk01 [As Ac]
Pokerl)eviL: folds
toneland: folds
m0_m0ney69: folds
Zackattak13: folds
ZooterCHUBBS: folds
Billytk01: calls 100
Donk Crusher: folds
Vitalo: folds
jimmyv52: checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 8h Tc]
jimmyv52: checks
Billytk01: bets 200
jimmyv52: calls 200
*** TURN *** [4s 8h Tc] [6c]
jimmyv52: bets 300
Billytk01: raises 600 to 900
jimmyv52: raises 2820 to 3720 and is all-in
Billytk01: calls 800 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (2020) returned to jimmyv52
*** RIVER *** [4s 8h Tc 6c] [2s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jimmyv52: shows [4d 4c] (three of a kind, Fours)
Billytk01: shows [As Ac] (a pair of Aces)
jimmyv52 collected 4050 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4050 | Rake 0
Board [4s 8h Tc 6c 2s]
Seat 1: Billytk01 showed [As Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: Donk Crusher (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Vitalo (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: jimmyv52 (big blind) showed [4d 4c] and won (4050) with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 5: Pokerl)eviL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: toneland folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: m0_m0ney69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Zackattak13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ZooterCHUBBS folded before Flop (didn't bet)


It amazes me that statistics hold true in online play cuz my AA and KK get cracked more times than they win for me...

bottom line is online poker is going to continue to be rigged and garbage until it is legalized and legally monitored/audited in the United States by a legit gaming commission, not by some bull shit kamahamee moheekan (whatever their names are) tribes in canada....

billytk01 on February 17, 2009

I think I finally get it - especially when reviewing the hands that have crippled me or knocked me out. Some plays are so inexplicable that they can only be explained by this simple observation - some players already know the hole cards and the board in advance. It is the only way to explain it.

eldave1 on February 17, 2009

When I am done with the meager 9 dollars I have left I am done - the hand below is so typical - the guy below had been pushing with junk for 20 minutes (mostly k rag) so I say to myself - he's my target - just need to wait for the moment. Sure as shit next hand he's the button - I'm the BB. Like clockwork he bets - I call with J 10 suited - if a K comes I fold - if not - I'm going over the top on any raise.

Flop is 6 J 2 - BBBBB-Bingo! I check - the trap is set.

He bets 1200 - I snap re-raise to 2400 - he folds right? Nope - he pushes all in. God damn it - did I read him wrong this time - shit - I'm committed - I call for all my chips. He shows:

K - FOKING 5 - non suited. As soon as our cards are shown a FOKING K hits the turn. He shoved over a re-raise with Foking AIR!!!!!!! - and of course - he instantly hits the out.

I check his ranking. He is: 16%, 31% and 40% for the last three years. Apparently in his training he learned that K 5 offsuit is the FT Nuts. He is typical of the type of player that FT is bringing along - he'll get to a cash out though and join the horror show eventually.


================================================
Full Tilt Poker Game #10692841160: Satellite to $750K Guarantee (80566556), Table 4 - 80/160 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:54:03 ET - 2009/02/17
Seat 2: donniemeboy (4,305)
Seat 3: yancancris (4,240)
Seat 4: WCshotcrete (3,625)
Seat 5: Moejoe13 (7,160)
Seat 6: o0alx0o (4,075)
Seat 7: eldave1 (5,895)
Seat 8: RodsterDP (7,810)
o0alx0o posts the small blind of 80
eldave1 posts the big blind of 160
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Tc Jc]
RodsterDP folds
donniemeboy folds
yancancris folds
WCshotcrete folds
Moejoe13 raises to 560
o0alx0o folds
eldave1 calls 400
*** FLOP *** [6s Jd 2s]
eldave1 checks
Moejoe13 bets 1,200
eldave1 raises to 2,400
Moejoe13 raises to 6,600, and is all in
eldave1 calls 2,935, and is all in
Moejoe13 shows [5d Ks]
eldave1 shows [Tc Jc]
Uncalled bet of 1,265 returned to Moejoe13
*** TURN *** [6s Jd 2s] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [6s Jd 2s Kd] [Ad]
Moejoe13 shows a pair of Kings
eldave1 shows a pair of Jacks
Moejoe13 wins the pot (11,870) with a pair of Kings
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11,870 | Rake 0
Board: [6s Jd 2s Kd Ad]
Seat 2: donniemeboy didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: yancancris didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: WCshotcrete didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Moejoe13 (button) showed [5d Ks] and won (11,870) with a pair of Kings
Seat 6: o0alx0o (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: eldave1 (big blind) showed [Tc Jc] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: RodsterDP didn't bet (folded)

eldave1 on February 17, 2009

I totally agree with eldave that this kind of stuff can really screw up your game. I really find myself questioning my play nowadays because I just don't trust the numbers anymore. When you're playing a game that's dependent on mathematics, and the math doesn't hold up, it really messes with your head.

I was recently playing in a SNG and I looked up everybody else at the table and I was the only one who was a profitable player. Instead of being happy at being the shark swimming among fish, all I could think of is being in a minefield because I didn't feel like skill gets rewarded. Of course I got knocked out by having KK cracked by someone re-raising all-in with A5s then turning the ace...and I wasn't even the least bit surprised. That's what it's come to...I'm terrified that no matter how far ahead I am my hand won't hold up. I'm afraid to push and I'm afraid to call. I find myself hoping to take down small pots rather than risk getting crippled or busted, even when I flop the nuts. I'm a 96% ranked player and right now I don't feel like I have +EV playing against a table full of sub-50% players...it's so sick....

roadrunnerr2 on February 16, 2009

Like I said before - I think it got to the point where it screwed up my Live game. As examples, pocket AA is suppossed to occur on the same 9 handed table with KK only 4% of the time. In the last 50 KKs I have had, I ran across AA 7 times (14%!!!) - I now fold KK in online if it is for all my chips - isn't that pathetic??

The last tourney I played I had A 9 suited on in the BB - the cutoff, the button, the small blind, all limped to me - not in good position and don't love A9 anyway so I check. Flop = A,9,5 - Bingo!!!

What - the small blind shoves all in - fok - okay - I know he has me covered - Okay - I'll call. What!! - the cutoff goes all in and then the button goes all in - What the FOK is going on? - okay - too late. Every one is in.

SB has: 8-7 - shoved for a gut shot with 3 players in front of him - idiot!

ME in the BB - two pair - Aces and 9s

Shit!!!!!! - the cutoff has pocket 55 - flopped a set!

Holy Shit - the button had pocket 99 - flopped a larger set.

As I think how could one foking flop hit so many people I type "NH and GG" - to the chap on the button - wasn't his fault. Then the turn - WAM -6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - the foker in the SB hit his gut shot - river 2 - all chips swish to the idiot.

I read the notes from the pocket 99 - "this site suks - fok u you donkey - how you shove with that shit..."

I look up our hero at official poker rankings - yep - 18% ranking - magic - just foking magic.

There are so MANY hot plops on this site - it is beyond reason. In live games - there are a couple a hands a tourney you can't get away from (e.g., you flop a set, top two pair, etc) - on FT - there are 10 a round and you lose 9 of them.

How does Billy go from a 99.9% ranking to a 37% ranking?? I wnet from the mid nineties to the 60 percentile - is this the only game where the more you play the worse you get - oops - I forgot - I cashed.

eldave1 on February 16, 2009

My FullTilt days are way in the past, thank christ, the consistant bad beats on this site are sooooooo obvious that its not worth talking about, and just withdrawn from pokerstars for the last time. I recently started a mission on stars to build a 20K bankroll, ive played $100 a game comfortably profiting in the past, upward from that was unexplored teratory. 220 games in and i was down $50 playing $13 sit n gos of which my roi at these donkey stakes is 30%, so I shifted the shattered remains of my bankroll ($300) over to ipoker, and quelle f***ing surprise, 120 games in and im upto $1000, cos thats whats meant to happen!!!

90%!! of poker players lose, and random is seldom random, ever see the number board next to a roulette wheel? Always streaks. So to seperate personal mistakes with said rigged sites, one must focus inwards. Do i:

1)Play outside my bankroll? 5% per game,2% MTT
2)Do I give my opponents the implied odds to catch their outs and get paid off?
3)Play an aggressive game such that I will get called so often that I will statistically recieve more bad beats than a normal player?

Take this into consideration first and then frisbie your laptop out of the 3rd story of a block of flats (Im on my 3rd laptop).

My personal down fall pattern on Full Tilt and Stars is that im consistantly mildly unlucky which breaks me even for 5 days, win a few 1 day, then drop 20 buyins in a row through utter bullsh**. You could set your watch by it,every freakin' week. I said 'sick' so many times last month that im sick of saying SICK!

If it's staring you in the face that for whatever reason you are not winning, you need to change your venue or your past time. One thing I remember so clearly from fulltilt was that sinking gut feeling when you are dealt AA, that aint right!! Fulltilt and stars to me are purely a channel to watch high stake pros play.

buck22 on February 16, 2009

The previous tourney that I just posted (losing k high flugh to A "nut" flush) happened in the ftops main event... I pd $500 to get into that garbage bs... and that also makes me wonder who in their right mind would put up $2,500 to $5,000 to play in a rigged online tourney... its an fin joke...


to eldave... its amazing that you post those remarks cuz I witness the exact same scenarios time after time time.... Lol whats even funnier is that you mention something about someone holding pckt 10's and then the flop hits A, K, x.. and they call no matter what is bet and they get rewarded by a 10 hitting the turn...... LOL well check this hand out... its exactly the same only with a pckt 6's being the suck out hand...

Full Tilt Poker Game #10533880715: Satellite to FTOPS Event #12 (79104849), Table 20 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:32:15 ET - 2009/02/09
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (1,880)
Seat 2: martytadman (3,255)
Seat 3: SorenKongsgaard (3,015)
Seat 4: billytk01 (2,535)
Seat 6: PokerTul (2,000)
Seat 7: fabregarp (1,620)
Seat 8: JoeSkeeter (1,640)
Seat 9: FR8DOGNV (1,020)
Dave Colclough posts the small blind of 30
martytadman posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billytk01 [Ks Qh]
SorenKongsgaard folds
billytk01 raises to 180
PokerTul folds
fabregarp folds
JoeSkeeter folds
FR8DOGNV folds
Dave Colclough folds
martytadman has 15 seconds left to act
martytadman calls 120
*** FLOP *** [Kc Qd 3d]
martytadman checks
bdubs3737 sits down
bdubs3737 adds 1,170
billytk01 bets 300
martytadman calls 300
*** TURN *** [Kc Qd 3d] [6s]
martytadman checks
billytk01 bets 2,055, and is all in
martytadman calls 2,055
billytk01 shows [Ks Qh]
martytadman shows [6d 6h]
*** RIVER *** [Kc Qd 3d 6s] [9s]
billytk01 shows two pair, Kings and Queens
martytadman shows three of a kind, Sixes
martytadman wins the pot (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes
billytk01 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,100 | Rake 0
Board: [Kc Qd 3d 6s 9s]
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: martytadman (big blind) showed [6d 6h] and won (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes

this shit is too funny...

billytk01 on February 15, 2009

They don't even attempt to disguise it anymore. You can literally call out the hands (especially the "runner runners") before anything hits the board. Here it comes - runner - runner - I lose my flopped set to seven high straight.

Here are other certainties:

* If you flop a monster and slow play it - you will lose - guarenteed - by some ridiculous turn river scenario.

* If you flop a monster and bet it big - you will
lose by some ridiculous turn river scenario.

* If you have KK, they have AA.

* If you have AA, they have an underpair and will hit a set.

HERE IS THE BIGGEST CERTAINITY - THE BAD PLAY IS ALMOST ALWAYS REWARDED!!!!!!

If the have 10 - 10 and the flop is A K 2 and you have AK and shove - the third ten hits the turn almost in sync with their bad call. This happens over and over and foking over again on this site - there absolutely is no punishment for bad play.

I have no foking idea how to play on-line poker anymore - seriously - do I fold aces - not bet AK, fold all pairs - WHAT????

If I bet and someone makes a stupid call ("yeah I know I only had 9-2 but they were suited and you only bet ten times the BB") I will lose - ALL STUPID CALLS ARE PAID OFF.

I can honestyl say I have no idea how to play this anymore - what a joke

eldave1 on February 15, 2009

OMG..... OMG...... OMG..... this shit is fin hilarious.... it never ends........ full tilt is such a full fuckin joke......

Full Tilt Poker Game #10652549978: FTOPS Main Event (73899945), Table 459 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:39:44 ET - 2009/02/15
Seat 1: Poker_Freddy_1 (7,840)
Seat 2: o LIMIT 45 o (6,780)
Seat 3: kasino31 (7,335)
Seat 4: billytk01 (5,150)
Seat 5: scrapper41 (7,249)
Seat 6: SuckaFish1 (6,575)
Seat 7: Ahvall (20,221)
Seat 8: EerWotBlud (10,195)
Seat 9: bigpapi1010 (8,776)
bigpapi1010 posts the small blind of 25
Poker_Freddy_1 posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billytk01 [Ks 9s]
o LIMIT 45 o folds
kasino31 folds
billytk01 calls 50
scrapper41 raises to 200
SuckaFish1 folds
Ahvall folds
EerWotBlud folds
bigpapi1010 calls 175
Poker_Freddy_1 folds
billytk01 calls 150
*** FLOP *** [8s 2s Js]
bigpapi1010 checks
billytk01 checks
scrapper41 bets 600
bigpapi1010 has 15 seconds left to act
bigpapi1010 calls 600
billytk01 calls 600
*** TURN *** [8s 2s Js] [3h]
bigpapi1010 has 15 seconds left to act
bigpapi1010 bets 1,400
billytk01 calls 1,400
scrapper41 folds
*** RIVER *** [8s 2s Js 3h] [4h]
bigpapi1010 has 15 seconds left to act
bigpapi1010 bets 2,950
billytk01 calls 2,950, and is all in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bigpapi1010 shows [Ts As] a flush, Ace high
billytk01 mucks
bigpapi1010 wins the pot (11,150) with a flush, Ace high
billytk01 stands up
Poker_Freddy_1 stands up
o LIMIT 45 o stands up
kasino31 stands up
scrapper41 stands up
SuckaFish1 stands up
Ahvall stands up
EerWotBlud stands up
bigpapi1010 stands up
billytk01 (Observer): rigged
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11,150 | Rake 0
Board: [8s 2s Js 3h 4h]
Seat 1: Poker_Freddy_1 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: o LIMIT 45 o didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: kasino31 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: billytk01 mucked [Ks 9s] - a flush, King high
Seat 5: scrapper41 folded on the Turn
Seat 6: SuckaFish1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Ahvall didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: EerWotBlud (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: bigpapi1010 (small blind) showed [Ts As] and won (11,150) with a flush, Ace high

Its amazing that I never get knocked out of these full tilt tournament with a marginal hand, or bad call.... Im always knocked out of these Full Rigged tourneys with huge made hands only to lose to ungodly bigger hands on a consistant basis. its the only way full tilt can knock out good players and give the fish a chance... what an fin joke.... these hands are all set up bull shit....

billytk01 on February 15, 2009

to nitemar6... I agree that 1 and 2 and 3 outers on the river happen but the point of the post is that these type of beats happen all the time... bad players are constantly rewarded, no hand is safe....

billytk01 on February 12, 2009

Roadrunner

I have posted a lot about FTP being rigged. But your example isn't what I would consider rigged. You could easily see an A on the river in a live game anywhere. The only thing that is suspect is why the A2 called you bets. Now THAT is suspicious. But an ace suckout on the river isn't the kind of rigged dealing that I have used as examples.

nitemare6 on February 12, 2009

to roadrunnerr2..... that is some sick ass play on full tilt. this is exactly my point about the site being rigged.. and the rigging im talking about is called leverage. These online sites purposely build in these suckouts for the horrid players, this enables all the fish and bad players which make up most of the site traffic to continue playing on these sickening sites....

Unfortuneatly, the only solution to this problem is to hopefully have the US finally approve online poker in the states and to have a US licensed gaming commision monitor the play.. until then its all luck and no skill on these sites....

billytk01 on February 12, 2009

I'm done with Full Tilt, for good this time. This hand is the one that broke my back....absolutely horrible play rewarded with a ridiculous suck-out.

Full Tilt Poker Game #10593055796: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (79923672), Table 1 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:33:08 ET - 2009/02/12
Seat 1: pacatoo (1,425)
Seat 2: OZMANFL (2,085)
Seat 3: mcdougal60 (1,900)
Seat 4: vdog11 (1,525)
Seat 5: Goldmine1 (1,050)
Seat 6: TheEnterTrainer (1,450)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 (1,460)
Seat 8: rallaff (1,165), is sitting out
Seat 9: DaIceCreamMan (1,440)
OZMANFL posts the small blind of 20
mcdougal60 posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [Kc Kd]
vdog11 folds
Goldmine1 folds
TheEnterTrainer folds
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 120
rallaff folds
DaIceCreamMan folds
pacatoo folds
OZMANFL calls 100
mcdougal60 calls 80
*** FLOP *** [7d 2d Qs]
OZMANFL bets 40
mcdougal60 folds
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 360
OZMANFL has 15 seconds left to act
OZMANFL calls 320
*** TURN *** [7d 2d Qs] [8h]
OZMANFL bets 40
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 980, and is all in
OZMANFL has 15 seconds left to act
OZMANFL calls 940
Roadrunnerr2 shows [Kc Kd]
OZMANFL shows [As 2h]
*** RIVER *** [7d 2d Qs 8h] [Ah]
Roadrunnerr2 shows a pair of Kings
OZMANFL shows two pair, Aces and Twos
OZMANFL wins the pot (3,040) with two pair, Aces and Twos
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
The blinds are now 25/50
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,040 | Rake 0
Board: [7d 2d Qs 8h Ah]
Seat 1: pacatoo (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: OZMANFL (small blind) showed [As 2h] and won (3,040) with two pair, Aces and Twos
Seat 3: mcdougal60 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: vdog11 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Goldmine1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: TheEnterTrainer didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 showed [Kc Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: rallaff didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: DaIceCreamMan didn't bet (folded)

roadrunnerr2 on February 12, 2009

You thought you were playing low stakes and took out a little.... I usually only put 50 bucks in to start, which may be stupid since it means I have to double up to even cash out.. but i digress....

My best run ever was when I built 50 to over 1000... I cashed some out and couldn't win. Did the same when i'd win a couple hundred leaving some to play and the curse would hit every time.

I just cashed out 800 after winning a desperation 200 buy in game... I had 900 and couldn't win or get in the money to save my life.. so figured it was time to leave.

Gonna take a break and see if i can start getting cards again after i get that check.

jaywepp on February 11, 2009

I've never thought about it before, but the sick run of bad beats against me didn't start until I made a withdrawal. It didn't cross my mind because I don't play big stakes and I only took out a couple of thousand. Would they really flip the doomswitch on anybody who has the nerve to make money on their site?! Apparently, they must be catering to the same crowd that spends half their paychecks on lottery tickets. "Come play our site...no skill required".

roadrunnerr2 on February 9, 2009

Jesus Christ... this site is so sickening.... horrid play constantly rewarded time after time... Its impossible to ever know if you the best hand or even a strong hand cuz the suck outs are unreal.. 1,2,3 outers constantly hit.. its ungodly sickening...

I just finished playing a satellite to the 1.5 million second chance tourney on Full tilt.. it was a 216 buyin... and another sickening beat again to get booted... Are any hands even remotely safe?????? its ungodly sickening....

Full Tilt Poker Game #10533880715: Satellite to FTOPS Event #12 (79104849), Table 20 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:32:15 ET - 2009/02/09
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (1,880)
Seat 2: martytadman (3,255)
Seat 3: SorenKongsgaard (3,015)
Seat 4: billytk01 (2,535)
Seat 6: PokerTul (2,000)
Seat 7: fabregarp (1,620)
Seat 8: JoeSkeeter (1,640)
Seat 9: FR8DOGNV (1,020)
Dave Colclough posts the small blind of 30
martytadman posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billytk01 [Ks Qh]
SorenKongsgaard folds
billytk01 raises to 180
PokerTul folds
fabregarp folds
JoeSkeeter folds
FR8DOGNV folds
Dave Colclough folds
martytadman has 15 seconds left to act
martytadman calls 120
*** FLOP *** [Kc Qd 3d]
martytadman checks
bdubs3737 sits down
bdubs3737 adds 1,170
billytk01 bets 300
martytadman calls 300
*** TURN *** [Kc Qd 3d] [6s]
martytadman checks
billytk01 bets 2,055, and is all in
martytadman calls 2,055
billytk01 shows [Ks Qh]
martytadman shows [6d 6h]
*** RIVER *** [Kc Qd 3d 6s] [9s]
billytk01 shows two pair, Kings and Queens
martytadman shows three of a kind, Sixes
martytadman wins the pot (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes
billytk01 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,100 | Rake 0
Board: [Kc Qd 3d 6s 9s]
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: martytadman (big blind) showed [6d 6h] and won (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 3: SorenKongsgaard didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: billytk01 showed [Ks Qh] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 6: PokerTul didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: fabregarp didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: JoeSkeeter didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: FR8DOGNV (button) didn't bet (folded)


God this site is such a joke..... its amazing how often Full Tilt rewards bad players and bad plays.... how did this guy even call a $300 bet into a $390 pot with two over cards on board, absolutely no draws (only 2 outs to catch) and not much money invested in pot... I'll tell you why he calls! He calls cuz he is bad player, has absolutely no idea of what he is doing and is probably the beneficiary of many prior suck outs compliment of full tilt... such a joke...

all i can say is horrid play, horrid play, horrid play and full tilts rigged software...........

billytk01 on February 9, 2009

And if you really want to drive yourself nutty - keep track of all hands where you lose it all or at least 2/3rds of your stack (i.e., the crippling hands) - that as where you will find that the odds go out the window. e.g., I win KK 67.35% of the time when all hands are counted. Hoowever, when it is for an all in - my tourney life at stake = I win less then 40% In addition, I come up against AA far more than expected. The odds of AA and KK being on the same table are 4.39% - However, in all in showdowns - I have run across AA four times (20%) of that amount. Keep track of how many times when facing all ins you:

a) win when you are a fav
b) win when you are a dog

If you experience is like mine - you will find that you win as a fav (again - this is just for showdowns) - 50% or less and you win as a dog 20% or less. You would be happy if these were 50-50 since at least the cards were going both ways - but they don't.

Anyway - I ignore everything statistically other that where was I in the hand (fav or dog and by how much) when all the chips went in - and - the numbers do not ring true.

eldave1 on February 9, 2009

to jaywepp... yes that is the point i am making, you cash out your screwed (the length of the cash out curse is unknown)

to nitemare6... I like to think im a good poker player. Im pretty successful in live cash and tourney play. I just play solid starting hands, minimize unnecessary bluffs/risks, and sometimes I like to pick spots and call some raises with suited connectors and such... and most of all i watch and study my opponants tendanciess.. anyway, when i won and placed high in the cash in a few of the FTP tournies all i did was play solid poker, nothing special. Believe it or not when I won the ftp Sunday 750k I was all-in only once and that was at the final table with 3 players left. I only knocked out i believe about 8 players during that tourney as well. Actually, I never did have a huge suck out.. I think I went in to some pots being a slight dog but never totally dominated... What is funny is that when I won the ftp Sunday 750k and finished 4th in the FTP Monday 1k is that in both tourneys I was the bubble boy with the lowest stack in making the money, seriously... so i made both runs basically starting from last in chips when the money was made...

my total run on full tilt was from April, 08 - June, 08... it was during those 3 months when i was hitting all the major money..

Check this- during those 3 months I made the final table of the Sunday 750k 3 times (finishing 1st, 7th-out on a suck out/bad beat and 9th on a suck out bad beat) ** the 9th place finish was never reported to card player or opr cuz for some reason the tourney was considered unfinished or something. this is what cardplayer told me when i inquired why my stats werent posted. I also finished 19th in another sunday 750k.. but like i said, after i cashed out i could not win a hand and every hand seemed like a setup and it usually was...

but to answer your question nitemare6.... I honestly believe you have to have more luck than skill to win a tourney online whereas in live more skill than luck is usually the determining factor.. To prove my point about more luck than skill to win a tourney online all you have to do is watch the final couple tables of the full tilt or poker stars tourneys and see all the horrid play.. people calling allins with any Ax, etc... its comical to watch the final tables...

billytk01 on February 9, 2009

I think the point he's trying to make chief is that once you cash out, even if you're a pro... you can't win.

He's showing you that he was good enough on an initial deposit to win lots of cash... so it's pretty silly to belive the guy couldn't win a game or cash even from that point out.

Hey my biggest accomplishment was turning 50 into more then 1K.. but everytime i've cashed out, I can't win. So much so that i've documented it on here.

jaywepp on February 8, 2009

Hey I am the original "rigged" theorist.

Take a look at "Big Huni". This guy must be the luckiest guy in the world or a great player at age 24. Look at all his cashes in tournies on FTP and elsewhere. So it seems some guys are making some dough online.

If I made 200K playing fking poker I would never say it was rigged again.

So since it is rigged how the heck did you manage to cash for 132K? Was it really just random luck and some good suckouts.... or great play?

Hard to believe that great play alone can win a tournament on FTP.

nitemare6 on February 8, 2009

to nitemare6....... the reason i say full tilt is rigged even though i won all that money is cuz when i cashed out all the money i won I couldnt win anything after that... nothing but bad beat after bad beat... also if you are short stacked in any tourney you might as well just quit the game cuz full tilt favors the big stacks so much so its ridiculous... and if your short stacked they set up the most ridiculous hands to knock you out... heres an example from full tilts 1.5 million guarantee that i just played tonight and just got knocked out (unfortunately I didnt have the save hand history option checked so I will just post it verbally...) this is an obvious set up if i ever did see one...

the blinds were 250/500 w/ 50 ante.... i was in the small blind with 2,300 chips and the big blind had about 51,000 chips... the hands got dealt and the table all folded to me in the small blind.. I looked down at 9c 4d... so i just called the big blind for another 250 leaving me with 2,050 chips... the big blind checked... the flop came 10s 8s 7s (all spades).. I checked and the BB checked.. the turn brings an amazing 6h giving me a straight... I pushed in and was immediatley called by the BB, he turned over AcAs (4 spades to a flush) and what comes magically on the river.. you guessed it, a 5s giving the bb a flush... that is a complete joke..

Whats amazing is that if the big blind bets on the flop I go away quietly waiting to pick another spot to push, but alas no... the big blind checks and full tilt ensures that i will be in the pot by giving me the straight and then setting up the knock out punch on the river... whats even more funny is when this hand was happening, my wife was watching and i told her exactly what was going to happen and it did.. she was impressed and now understands why i complain and bitch so much when i get bounced out of every one of these rigged tourneys


this is just another example of the completely ridiculous beats, hand set ups.... its a joke and its so f'in predictable...

this hand history is not just another bad beat, hand set up rant.... this is just another example of the garbage that constantly happens in every damn tourney on full tilt...

ps... i finished 1495 out of 5325

billytk01 on February 8, 2009

billytk01


unfkingreal... yoi DID win 132K in a tournament on full rigged tilt. So, is it doable for a regular guy to win some huge money online on FTP withut a rigged game??! I am tempted to start playing again, only in tournies this time , based upon reading your stats.

Thanks for sharing the info.

b.t.w how can you say it is rigged when you won a horrendous amount of money by anyone's standard???!!!

(interestingly I played a game on one table last night for a few hours and ran my buy-in up 4xs. Almost made me FTP born-again. But not quite! night

nitemare6 on February 8, 2009

all you have to do is watch the final 2 tables of full tilts sunday 750k and pstars 1.5 mil guarantee and see all the horrid play.... you would figure that if a player can navigate their way through 3,000 to 8,000 players to the final 20 players of the tourney at the very least 15 players or so would have some decent skill.. instead its donkeys calling off chips with Axxx on any all in, etc.... these final tables are hilarious.. also eldave1 is right.. if you look at these final table player ratings they all are negative roi's etc.... its horrid....

heres something that always happens in the ring games.... did you ever notice that if you or another player goes all in for the first time in a cash NL or cash limit session that you/they win 95% of the time... this only works on the first all in of a cash/ring game session.... I like to call it the "all-in" rule....

billytk01 on February 6, 2009

And to boot - just check the rankings of those who knock you out they are the worst - - my last three tourneys I was knocked oot by a 5.6% ranking, a 4% and a 9% - I'm only a 70% now - of course I was 96% before I cashed out

eldave1 on February 6, 2009

Rigged. I`m a winning multitabling sng (10 $ -50 $)player for about 3 Years. and I do a lot of deposits an cashouts on many sites. What I`ve experienced on Stars and espacially on FT is a deposit reward and a cashout curse. Always the same patterns. I get a ridicoulous great run when i place some money there but after a while my hands get busted in a absolute unreal way. It seems that FT tries to figure out if you`re skilled or donkish player in order to protect the bad players in the lower levels who are the fundament in this huge poker pyramide. I´ve experienced that several times on FT and Stars in contrary to other networks like Ongame and I-poker. For example last year I´ve deposited at Stars and instanly i`ve managed to achieve the 2nd place in their weekly "Battle of the planets" which was followed by a horrible downswing. This is just an example. I`ve experienced that many times . I`m using the Poker Tracker Addon "Tourney Luck" for a while now and the outcome is exactly what i just felt before. I guess My Samplesize off all in situations is not big enough yet (3000 All ins) but i`ts just absurd how the Allin-luck (not the skills or style) turns around when changing the platform.

carlinho on February 6, 2009

I promised I wouldn't play on this crock of a site again and I broke my promise. I was playing two MTTs - within a 2 hand period I get AA on one of the MTTs, raise prefllop, get called and beaten by QJ. On the other MTT I get AA, raise prefllop, get called and beaten by QJ. In two tourneys at the same time I get jammed with this crap. I blame myself as I said I would give it up. I can't wait for the day this shit is exposed.

================================================== =
Full Tilt Poker Game #10469384174: $27,500 Guarantee (78986222), Table 54 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:05:46 ET - 2009/02/06
Tooms85 sits down
Tooms85 adds 3,000
Seat 1: bObO6174 (2,990)
Seat 2: eldave1 (2,885)
Seat 3: hochhaus1 (2,970)
Seat 4: Krazee2 (2,905)
Seat 5: Mackey_Vandrell (2,945)
Seat 6: patandur (3,000)
Seat 7: daniel131113 (6,255)
Seat 9: The Russller (3,050)
Mackey_Vandrell posts the small blind of 10
patandur posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ac Ah]
daniel131113 calls 20
The Russller folds
bObO6174 folds
eldave1 raises to 200
hochhaus1 folds
Krazee2 folds
Mackey_Vandrell has 15 seconds left to act
Mackey_Vandrell folds
patandur calls 180
daniel131113 calls 180
*** FLOP *** [4s Qh 8s]
patandur bets 2,800, and is all in
daniel131113 raises to 5,600
eldave1 calls 2,685, and is all in
daniel131113 shows [Js Qs]
eldave1 shows [Ac Ah]
patandur shows [Kh Qd]
Uncalled bet of 2,800 returned to daniel131113
*** TURN *** [4s Qh 8s] [9s]
*** RIVER *** [4s Qh 8s 9s] [7d]
daniel131113 shows a flush, Queen high
patandur shows a pair of Queens
daniel131113 wins the side pot (230) with a flush, Queen high
eldave1 shows a pair of Aces
daniel131113 wins the main pot (8,665) with a flush, Queen high
eldave1 stands up
patandur stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8,895 Main pot 8,665. Side pot 230. | Rake 0
Board: [4s Qh 8s 9s 7d]
Seat 1: bObO6174 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: eldave1 showed [Ac Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: hochhaus1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Krazee2 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Mackey_Vandrell (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: patandur (big blind) showed [Kh Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: daniel131113 showed [Js Qs] and won (8,895) with a flush, Queen high
Seat 9: The Russller didn't bet (folded)

================================================== ===
Full Tilt Poker Game #10469503357: $5,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (78977976), Table 47 - 120/240 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:13:38 ET - 2009/02/06
Seat 1: eldave1 (10,590)
Seat 2: sabbeth4578 (17,760)
Seat 3: BigBang96 (15,295)
Seat 4: KTM_JAY (9,267)
Seat 5: Fishing John (14,560)
Seat 6: SRAC (1,975)
Seat 7: dr_milo (25,785)
Seat 8: Phaydn (23,070)
Seat 9: SCOOP00 (12,600)
eldave1 antes 25
sabbeth4578 antes 25
BigBang96 antes 25
KTM_JAY antes 25
Fishing John antes 25
SRAC antes 25
dr_milo antes 25
Phaydn antes 25
SCOOP00 antes 25
KTM_JAY posts the small blind of 120
Fishing John posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ad As]
SRAC folds
dr_milo folds
Phaydn folds
SCOOP00 calls 240
eldave1 raises to 720
sabbeth4578 has 15 seconds left to act
sabbeth4578 folds
BigBang96 folds
KTM_JAY folds
Fishing John calls 480
SCOOP00 calls 480
*** FLOP *** [Jc Qd 3s]
Fishing John checks
SCOOP00 checks
eldave1 bets 2,505
Fishing John raises to 5,010
SCOOP00 folds
eldave1 raises to 9,845, and is all in
Fishing John calls 4,835
eldave1 shows [Ad As]
Fishing John shows [Js Qc]
*** TURN *** [Jc Qd 3s] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [Jc Qd 3s 8c] [6s]
eldave1 shows a pair of Aces
Fishing John shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
Fishing John wins the pot (22,195) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22,195 | Rake 0
Board: [Jc Qd 3s 8c 6s]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Ad As] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: sabbeth4578 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: BigBang96 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: KTM_JAY (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Fishing John (big blind) showed [Js Qc] and won (22,195) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 6: SRAC folded before the Flop
Seat 7: dr_milo folded before the Flop
Seat 8: Phaydn folded before the Flop
Seat 9: SCOOP00 folded on the Flop

eldave1 on February 6, 2009

I have heard the larger number of hands, the more players arguement and have never been convinced. If there are 100,000 players on the site versus a 100, the odds should not change (i.e., AA should beat 55 80% of the time regardless).

To Billy: - if you do start collecting hand stats be careful in the analysis. For example, I have won KK 74% of the time overall including where there was no call of my raise. HOWEVER, only 43% of the time when facing an all in showdown (and yes - most of those times I was the predominant
preflop favorite). So - to really see the rigging, you need to look at all in showdowns and especially focus on hands where at least half your stack is at stake. The second thing I examined in "all in showdowns" was whether or not I was the favorite at the time all the chips went in. 84% of the time I was the fav - I won 48% of those. In the 16% of the times I was the dog - I lost 90% of the time. What it told me was it did not matter if I played tight or loose - either way I was going to lose. And again - many of those favs that lose are to inexplicable calls (the last tourney I played I had K10 in the BB - flop is 10h-10d-2c - rainbow. I shove knowing you cannot slowplay this site and get called by 8c 7c - turn is 5c, river Ac, - I lose and am out on the bubble again.

You can get Poker Tracker free for 90 days - it is neat in that it will replay your hands.

Last note - several months ago I had a computer hard drive failure and I emailed Full Tilt asking for all my hands from 2008 - they would not send them because in their words - teh volume was too big. I think BS.

Anyway. GL

eldave1 on February 5, 2009

I guess so. The other thing I was thinking about was this: Did the site traffic increase significantly compared to when you won most of your 200k vs. after you cashed? Maybe a lot more average to bad players joined the site, just thinking out loud.

For me, the only big cashes I've had were on Stars, 1 sng for $1080 and 1 MTT for about $2200. But I don't play enough to notice a real strong pattern of the after the cash out curse. Of course, these wins happened in April 05 and September 07, so it's been awhile. good discussion though.

mike

mrkromer on February 5, 2009

eldave... well said my friend, i couldnt agree more.......

to mrkromer.... yes i agree that some players get looser as their bankrolls get bigger, but I believe those are the players that I believe that lucked into the money to begin with and have no real skill in playing poker...

I dont change my approach or style of play in any tournament I enter regardless of bankroll, etc.... I play a solid, passive aggressive style, while minimizing unnecessarry risks in regards to bluffing, etc... its what good players, do.. they stay the with what works and what works for me is what i stated earlier...

now in regards to bad beats.... yes, i know that happens live or online, that is a fact... but... the bad beats and crazy suck outs have come far more too often and in the most peculiar situations ever since I had cashed out my bankroll on full tilt...

I guess the bottom line is that you really wont understand the patterns of the beats and suck outs until you hit a big score then cash out and attempt to play again.... I guess thats pretty much the only way to experience and understand what we are trying to convey....

the only thing im regretting is I wish I kept a record of hand history of every last hand that I busted out on in a tourney so you can see the ridiculous beats I take to get knocked constantly.....

billytk01 on February 4, 2009

I don't think that is the problem. The hand below is typical - had JJ - make preflop raise (4BB) - get called by 2, 3 offsuit and a KJ. Had I lost to the KJ - okay that is a bad beat. The fact that the 2-3 offsuit friggin called in the first place and won is what has been the pattern I experienced after cashing vs. before cashing. So -to me - that is the issue. I saw one pretty straightforward card pattern and play pattern before cashing out and a whole different one after cashing out. Before, I could see why they called (short stacked, pocket pair, etc. etc) and even though I was the favorite, I understood.

Now I am losing hands that are simply unavoidable (I have QQ - flop is Q 3 10 - I shove - get called by A 5 and of course the turn is a K and the river is a J - I go out on bubble again). That is the part that has most of us on Full Tilt - pun intended. We are used to bad beats - we are not used to what we are seeing after we cashed. I'm done with it.



Full Tilt Poker Game #9072889341: $8 + $0.80 Tournament (69418097), Table 5 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:06:50 ET - 2008/11/20
Seat 1: eldave1 (6,427)
Seat 2: hauten (2,410)
Seat 3: RobAbdr (2,028)
Seat 4: x4x-raik-x7x (725)
Seat 5: sfaktis (3,370)
Seat 6: samson67 (1,220), is sitting out
Seat 7: l--lroml--l (1,400)
Seat 8: lazarus714 (4,650)
Seat 9: twalman (2,945)
l--lroml--l posts the small blind of 25
lazarus714 posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Jh Js]
twalman folds
eldave1 raises to 175
hauten has 15 seconds left to act
hauten folds
RobAbdr folds
x4x-raik-x7x folds
sfaktis calls 175
samson67 folds
l--lroml--l calls 150
lazarus714 calls 125
*** FLOP *** [4s 2h 5c]
l--lroml--l has 15 seconds left to act
l--lroml--l bets 1,225, and is all in
lazarus714 folds
eldave1 calls 1,225
sfaktis calls 1,225
*** TURN *** [4s 2h 5c] [2d]
eldave1 bets 5,027, and is all in
sfaktis calls 1,970, and is all in
eldave1 shows [Jh Js]
sfaktis shows [2s 3h]
l--lroml--l shows [Ks Jd]
Uncalled bet of 3,057 returned to eldave1
*** RIVER *** [4s 2h 5c 2d] [8c]
eldave1 shows two pair, Jacks and Twos
sfaktis shows three of a kind, Twos
sfaktis wins the side pot (3,940) with three of a kind, Twos
l--lroml--l shows a pair of Twos
sfaktis wins the main pot (4,375) with three of a kind, Twos
l--lroml--l stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8,315 Main pot 4,375. Side pot 3,940. | Rake 0
Board: [4s 2h 5c 2d 8c]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Jh Js] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Twos
Seat 2: hauten didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: RobAbdr didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: x4x-raik-x7x didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: sfaktis showed [2s 3h] and won (8,315) with three of a kind, Twos
Seat 6: samson67 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: l--lroml--l (small blind) showed [Ks Jd] and lost with a pair of Twos
Seat 8: lazarus714 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: twalman didn't bet (folded)

eldave1 on February 4, 2009

Well, I agree with the odds when the majority of the money went in, no arguments there of course. And of course I agree that it's a bad beat. And I am surprised that you have actually won that much, but congrats on that too, my bad. But the part that still doesn't make sense to me is that you posted on here about a bad beat when you know that they happen all the time. You're obviously a solid enough player to still be way up; maybe over the course of the time since you cashed you've gotten looser? I don't know for sure, but I do know that this is the problem that a lot of players, good and bad, face.

mike

mrkromer on February 4, 2009

What happened to roadrunnerr2 is sickening but alas its just another example of the much rigged bs that goes on full tilt....

I have yet to be knocked out of any tourney on full tilt where I didnt have the best hand going in pre or post flop.... (except for the occasional all-in draw, etc...) but its so hilarious that the majority of the time no matter what the bigger stacks are holding they almost always suck out no matter how far behind they are. I guess this is why that full tilts tourneys always start and end at about the same time week in and week out (which is kind of amazing in its own right)...

billytk01 on February 4, 2009

I've been playing Full Tilt for a while and have done alright despite dealing with the horrible play and ridiculous suck-outs. I have to play tighter than I'd like, but my big hands usually get paid off. Sure, hands don't hold up like they should, but I've learned to accept that as the trade-off of getting action when I have the nuts. Tonight may have made me change my mind for good.

I've played 8 SNG's today and have been knocked out by 2 4-outers, 2 3-outers, and 2 2-outers. I got crippled in another tourney after hitting TPTK and running into quads. I'm still alive in the last one only because my AA miraculously held up against A7o. All of the suck-outs came after the flop too, so my odds were even better. I can take a little back luck, and I don't normally whine about bad beats, but what happened to me is beyond ridiculous! I found this site because I really needed a place to vent. Here's a sampling of what I'm talking about. I seriously done with Full Tilt and their bullshit.

NAFAI1 posts the small blind of 20
DETAILINGDAN posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [7h 7d]
Billyhitch folds
SuperBad3 folds
threerivers7 folds
ptloser folds
varsity2x raises to 120
Roadrunnerr2 calls 120
HQQKEM_HQRNS folds
NAFAI1 calls 100
DETAILINGDAN calls 80
*** FLOP *** [Td 7c Ts]
NAFAI1 checks
DETAILINGDAN checks
varsity2x bets 200
Roadrunnerr2 calls 200
NAFAI1 calls 200
DETAILINGDAN raises to 400
varsity2x folds
Roadrunnerr2 calls 200
NAFAI1 calls 200
*** TURN *** [Td 7c Ts] [Kd]
NAFAI1 checks
DETAILINGDAN bets 800
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 935, and is all in
NAFAI1 folds
DETAILINGDAN calls 135
Roadrunnerr2 shows [7h 7d]
DETAILINGDAN shows [Qs Tc]
*** RIVER *** [Td 7c Ts Kd] [Qd]
Roadrunnerr2 shows a full house, Sevens full of Tens
DETAILINGDAN shows a full house, Tens full of Queens
DETAILINGDAN wins the pot (3,750) with a full house, Tens full of Queens
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,750 | Rake 0
Board: [Td 7c Ts Kd Qd]
Seat 1: threerivers7 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: ptloser didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: varsity2x folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Roadrunnerr2 showed [7h 7d] and lost with a full house, Sevens full of Tens
Seat 5: HQQKEM_HQRNS (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: NAFAI1 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 7: DETAILINGDAN (big blind) showed [Qs Tc] and won (3,750) with a full house, Tens full of Queens
Seat 8: Billyhitch didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: SuperBad3 didn't bet (folded)


Full Tilt Poker Game #10424067077: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (78804467), Table 1 - 120/240 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:27:16 ET - 2009/02/04
Seat 2: mordish (2,915)
Seat 3: Wesito76 (1,720)
Seat 5: joewardo (4,455)
Seat 8: Roadrunnerr2 (4,410)
mordish posts the small blind of 120
Wesito76 posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [Kh Ac]
joewardo raises to 840
Roadrunnerr2 has 15 seconds left to act
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 2,400
mordish folds
Wesito76 folds
joewardo calls 1,560
*** FLOP *** [Ah 4h 8h]
joewardo has 15 seconds left to act
joewardo checks
Roadrunnerr2 bets 2,010, and is all in
joewardo calls 2,010
Roadrunnerr2 shows [Kh Ac]
joewardo shows [As Js]
*** TURN *** [Ah 4h 8h] [Jc]
*** RIVER *** [Ah 4h 8h Jc] [3s]
Roadrunnerr2 shows a pair of Aces
joewardo shows two pair, Aces and Jacks
joewardo wins the pot (9,180) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9,180 | Rake 0
Board: [Ah 4h 8h Jc 3s]
Seat 2: mordish (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: Wesito76 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: joewardo showed [As Js] and won (9,180) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 8: Roadrunnerr2 (button) showed [Kh Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces


Full Tilt Poker Game #10423248007: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (78801593), Table 1 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:27:15 ET - 2009/02/04
Seat 2: VMAT2 (1,790)
Seat 3: Orlegard (1,322)
Seat 4: Jon2111 (3,475)
Seat 5: yanknpull (1,323)
Seat 6: grey goose man (2,975)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 (1,290)
Seat 8: Grubasek88 (1,325)
VMAT2 posts the small blind of 25
Orlegard posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [Qh Qd]
Jon2111 has 15 seconds left to act
Jon2111 calls 50
yanknpull folds
grey goose man folds
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 150
Grubasek88 folds
VMAT2 folds
Orlegard calls 100
Jon2111 calls 100
*** FLOP *** [4h 5h Jd]
Orlegard checks
Jon2111 bets 3,325, and is all in
Roadrunnerr2 calls 1,140, and is all in
Orlegard folds
Jon2111 shows [Qc Jc]
Roadrunnerr2 shows [Qh Qd]
Uncalled bet of 2,185 returned to Jon2111
*** TURN *** [4h 5h Jd] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [4h 5h Jd 7c] [Js]
Jon2111 shows three of a kind, Jacks
Roadrunnerr2 shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
Jon2111 wins the pot (2,755) with three of a kind, Jacks
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,755 | Rake 0
Board: [4h 5h Jd 7c Js]
Seat 2: VMAT2 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: Orlegard (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Jon2111 showed [Qc Jc] and won (2,755) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 5: yanknpull didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: grey goose man didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 showed [Qh Qd] and lost with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 8: Grubasek88 (button) didn't bet (folded)

roadrunnerr2 on February 4, 2009

You can easily get Billy's payouts on the official poker ranking site and what he is saying is true. He did win that much.

In terms of the pre-flop - post flop arguement - he is correct also. It is what the odds were at the time all the money went in (Christ - that is pretty basic or we would just call this Texas Pocket Cards). If an ace hits the flop with no Jack - Billy goes away quietly and says - damn - bad flop. What hit was the J. It put him in the position of being all in and he was - AT THAT TIME - facing a player that was down to two outs.
That was the point of the post. On FT - you constantly get into positions where you are a dominant fav - you act accordingly - then you get punished.

I have had the cash out curse experience as well (although for only a meager $4K). For two years I was in the 95 percenttile of players. After I cashed - I am in the 60 percentile. I did not get bad all of a sudden nor did I experience the same decline in live games. Anyway - that is Billy's point. You cash - you lose.

eldave1 on February 2, 2009

This is in response to mrkromer..... if would of took the time to read back to all the other posts, I am not claiming the site is rigged because of one bad beat, etc.. etc... ect... what I am claiming is that in the beginning early last year when I started playing full tilt's tourneys I was killing it (yes i am a good solid player)... I won the sunday 750k on May 4,08 and placed in top 7 in a about another 5 high payout tourneys.... so basically ran to over 200k in just 4-5 months or so... then I made the mistake of cashing out all my money off of full tilt to buy me and wife cars and down payment on new house... and since ive withdrawn the money I have had nothing but bad beats, horrible suck outs...

also mrkromer... if im up over $200,000 (yes thats two hundred-thousand dollars) how is a $215 buy in way over my head explain that one to me,LMAO..... especially when i play in the $1,000 monday 1k on full tilt and $1,000 super tuesday events on pstars.....

and yes that hand history that i posted, I was dominated pre-flop (big deal) call a $600 raise and now I was dominating post flop, extremely dominating on turn with only 2 outs to lose and boom, the magical 2 outer hits in which I see all the time on full Rigged.. also, your assessment that the flop was fucked up but the river corrected what was wrong, if this is your logic in how you view poker then maybe you shouldnt be posting at all... pre-flop i was dog at 18% - 80%, flop I was 87% - 12% favorite, turn I am 95% - 5% dominating favorite... and you know the rest... the sites a joke, ever since i have withdrawn my money off of the site I had nothing but bad beats.. I have yet to get knocked out of full tilt tourney without having the best hand post or pre-flop, its awlays a bad beat suck out.....

feel free to check my 2008 stats on officialpokerrankings.com billytk01

billytk01 on February 2, 2009

Joined a special ground hog day full rigged tourney today - they gave all players one free rebuy. Was not going to play but did out morbid curiosity. My theory was because they were giving the free rebuy - they would have tons of action flops and would rigged the deal to achieve that. I lasted about ten minutes. I lost 2 nut flushes to 2 full-houses in a three hand period (below). I am sure I played the hands wrong - but c'mom FT - if you're going to rig for action flops - at least try to fool us!






Full Tilt Poker Game #10391185033: $12,500 Guarantee (78498465), Table 39 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:05:32 ET - 2009/02/02
Seat 1: Servaaaaas (4,040)
Seat 2: JangoBaron (2,860)
Seat 3: 1Black_Sunshine (1,810)
Seat 4: BuildinStacks85 (2,970)
Seat 5: kobra55 (4,340)
Seat 6: Faust_fin (3,000), is sitting out
Seat 7: OCBslim24 (2,080)
Seat 8: ALFeRICH (3,000)
Seat 9: eldave1 (2,900)
kobra55 posts the small blind of 10
Faust_fin posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ad Qd]
OCBslim24 folds
ALFeRICH folds
eldave1 raises to 70
Servaaaaas folds
JangoBaron calls 70
1Black_Sunshine calls 70
BuildinStacks85 calls 70
kobra55 folds
Faust_fin folds
*** FLOP *** [7c 7d 8d]
eldave1 bets 160
JangoBaron folds
1Black_Sunshine calls 160
BuildinStacks85 calls 160
*** TURN *** [7c 7d 8d] [3d]
eldave1 bets 790
1Black_Sunshine folds
BuildinStacks85 calls 790
*** RIVER *** [7c 7d 8d 3d] [7s]
eldave1 checks
BuildinStacks85 checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
eldave1 shows [Ad Qd] a flush, Ace high
BuildinStacks85 shows [8s 8c] a full house, Eights full of Sevens
BuildinStacks85 wins the pot (2,370) with a full house, Eights full of Sevens

Seat 9: eldave1 showed [Ad Qd] and lost with a flush, Ace high



Full Tilt Poker Game #10391194176: $12,500 Guarantee (78498465), Table 39 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:06:29 ET - 2009/02/02
Seat 1: Servaaaaas (4,040)
Seat 2: JangoBaron (2,790)
Seat 3: 1Black_Sunshine (1,580)
Seat 4: BuildinStacks85 (4,320)
Seat 5: kobra55 (4,330)
Seat 6: Faust_fin (2,980), is sitting out
Seat 7: OCBslim24 (2,080)
Seat 8: ALFeRICH (3,000)
Seat 9: eldave1 (1,880)
Faust_fin posts the small blind of 10
OCBslim24 posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [5d 8c]
ALFeRICH folds
eldave1 folds
Servaaaaas folds
JangoBaron raises to 80
1Black_Sunshine folds
BuildinStacks85 folds
kobra55 folds
Faust_fin folds
OCBslim24 calls 60
*** FLOP *** [9s Qs 9c]
OCBslim24 checks
JangoBaron bets 170
OCBslim24 folds
Uncalled bet of 170 returned to JangoBaron
JangoBaron mucks
JangoBaron wins the pot (170)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 170 | Rake 0
Board: [9s Qs 9c]
Seat 1: Servaaaaas didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: JangoBaron collected (170), mucked
Seat 3: 1Black_Sunshine didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: BuildinStacks85 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: kobra55 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Faust_fin (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: OCBslim24 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: ALFeRICH didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: eldave1 didn't bet (folded)



Full Tilt Poker Game #10391199570: $12,500 Guarantee (78498465), Table 39 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:07:02 ET - 2009/02/02
Seat 1: Servaaaaas (4,040)
Seat 2: JangoBaron (2,880)
Seat 3: 1Black_Sunshine (1,580)
Seat 4: BuildinStacks85 (4,320)
Seat 5: kobra55 (4,330)
Seat 6: Faust_fin (2,970), is sitting out
Seat 7: OCBslim24 (2,000)
Seat 8: ALFeRICH (3,000)
Seat 9: eldave1 (1,880)
OCBslim24 posts the small blind of 10
ALFeRICH posts the big blind of 20
eldave1: what a flop
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Kc Jc]
eldave1 calls 20
Servaaaaas folds
eldave1: nh
JangoBaron raises to 100
1Black_Sunshine raises to 300
BuildinStacks85 folds
kobra55 folds
Faust_fin folds
OCBslim24 folds
ALFeRICH folds
eldave1 calls 280
JangoBaron raises to 2,880, and is all in
1Black_Sunshine calls 1,280, and is all in
eldave1 has 15 seconds left to act
eldave1 has requested TIME
eldave1 folds
JangoBaron shows [Kd As]
1Black_Sunshine shows [5s 5d]
Uncalled bet of 1,300 returned to JangoBaron
*** FLOP *** [7h Ad Qh]
*** TURN *** [7h Ad Qh] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [7h Ad Qh 2d] [5h]
JangoBaron shows a pair of Aces
1Black_Sunshine shows three of a kind, Fives
1Black_Sunshine wins the pot (3,490) with three of a kind, Fives
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,490 | Rake 0
Board: [7h Ad Qh 2d 5h]
Seat 1: Servaaaaas didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: JangoBaron showed [Kd As] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: 1Black_Sunshine showed [5s 5d] and won (3,490) with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 4: BuildinStacks85 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: kobra55 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Faust_fin (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: OCBslim24 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: ALFeRICH (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: eldave1 folded before the Flop

Full Tilt Poker Game #10391210653: $12,500 Guarantee (78498465), Table 39 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:08:08 ET - 2009/02/02
Seat 1: Servaaaaas (4,040)
Seat 2: JangoBaron (1,300)
Seat 3: 1Black_Sunshine (3,490)
Seat 4: BuildinStacks85 (4,320)
Seat 5: kobra55 (4,330)
Seat 6: Faust_fin (2,970), is sitting out
Seat 7: OCBslim24 (1,990)
Seat 8: ALFeRICH (2,980)
Seat 9: eldave1 (1,580)
ALFeRICH posts the small blind of 10
eldave1 posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Qc As]
Servaaaaas has 15 seconds left to act
Servaaaaas raises to 70
JangoBaron folds
1Black_Sunshine calls 70
BuildinStacks85 has 15 seconds left to act
BuildinStacks85 raises to 200
kobra55 folds
Faust_fin folds
OCBslim24 folds
ALFeRICH folds
eldave1 calls 180
Servaaaaas calls 130
1Black_Sunshine calls 130
*** FLOP *** [Js 8c Ks]
eldave1 checks
Servaaaaas checks
1Black_Sunshine checks
BuildinStacks85 bets 260
eldave1 calls 260
Servaaaaas folds
1Black_Sunshine calls 260
*** TURN *** [Js 8c Ks] [8s]
eldave1 bets 1,120, and is all in
1Black_Sunshine folds
BuildinStacks85 calls 1,120
eldave1 shows [Qc As]
BuildinStacks85 shows [Kc Kd]
*** RIVER *** [Js 8c Ks 8s] [9s]
eldave1 shows a flush, Ace high
BuildinStacks85 shows a full house, Kings full of Eights
BuildinStacks85 wins the pot (3,830) with a full house, Kings full of Eights
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,830 | Rake 0
Board: [Js 8c Ks 8s 9s]
Seat 1: Servaaaaas folded on the Flop
Seat 2: JangoBaron didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: 1Black_Sunshine folded on the Turn
Seat 4: BuildinStacks85 showed [Kc Kd] and won (3,830) with a full house, Kings full of Eights
Seat 5: kobra55 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Faust_fin didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: OCBslim24 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: ALFeRICH (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: eldave1 (big blind) showed [Qc As] and lost with a flush, Ace high

eldave1 on February 2, 2009

So you've won over 200k and now you think the site is rigged? Hmm, interesting. The correct story is probably more like this: You put $300 in your account, stupidly used $215 to play in a tournament in which you were way over your head, and then ended up in a bad hand. Keep in mind you were dominated preflop, and the river only corrected what the flop fucked up. You would've never even posted here if you had won that much money on FT, junior.

mike

mrkromer on February 2, 2009

Well, I gave full tilt another try this time under my wifes account.... lavina76 (I closed my own personal account on full tilt due to the consistant rigged beats after i withdrew all my won tourney money which was about 211k) but alas nothing has changed in regards to the rigged and ridiculous bad beats on full tilt probably due to the fact that my deposit account and credit card deposits are the same as my wifes as well as the mailing address.. but here is the hand that almost made me throw my computer agains the wall on full tilt due to another rigged ridiculous horrid beat...
Im playing my wifes account lavina 76 and this is only the 5th hand of the tourney $216 buyin $500k guarantee.....

Full Tilt Poker Game #10380866663: Super Sunday $500K (76461284), Table 154 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:06:14 ET - 2009/02/01
Seat 1: RELETON (2,990)
Seat 3: sae9317 (2,831)
Seat 4: HIKER_II (2,970), is sitting out
Seat 5: getano100 (2,970)
Seat 6: greenerbels1 (2,891)
Seat 7: LaVina76 (2,866)
Seat 8: hankthetank80 (3,000), is sitting out
Seat 9: JamesBon (3,482)
greenerbels1 posts the small blind of 10
LaVina76 posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LaVina76 [Jh Js]
hankthetank80 folds
JamesBon raises to 70
RELETON folds
sae9317 calls 70
HIKER_II folds
getano100 calls 70
greenerbels1 folds
LaVina76 raises to 320
JamesBon has 15 seconds left to act
JamesBon raises to 650
sae9317 folds
getano100 folds
LaVina76 calls 330
*** FLOP *** [7s 4s Jd]
LaVina76 checks
JamesBon checks
*** TURN *** [7s 4s Jd] [4c]
LaVina76 checks
JamesBon bets 1,450
LaVina76 raises to 2,216, and is all in
JamesBon calls 766
LaVina76 shows [Jh Js]
JamesBon shows [As Ad]
*** RIVER *** [7s 4s Jd 4c] [Ac]
LaVina76 shows a full house, Jacks full of Fours
JamesBon shows a full house, Aces full of Fours
JamesBon wins the pot (5,882) with a full house, Aces full of Fours
LaVina76 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,882 | Rake 0
Board: [7s 4s Jd 4c Ac]
Seat 1: RELETON didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: sae9317 folded before the Flop
Seat 4: HIKER_II didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: getano100 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: greenerbels1 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: LaVina76 (big blind) showed [Jh Js] and lost with a full house, Jacks full of Fours
Seat 8: hankthetank80 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: JamesBon showed [As Ad] and won (5,882) with a full house, Aces full of Fours



what a joke of a site.... they dont even try to hide the rigging... Its amazing all the 2 outers that are consistantly hit on the river all the time on this f'd up site..... im completely done with this site now ... and I hope that when i play in the wsop this year I make it deep in one of the tourneys so that full tilt can come up to me and ask me to wear their garbage logo.. I ll just laugh and when i get a chance on air to slam them i will... badly..... what a joke of a site....

billytk01 on February 1, 2009

Here is a question though? Where does everyone's money go! Do they just circulate it around until it is almost all given back to ftp through rakes?

TRauck on February 1, 2009

How do we get cartoon avatars on FTP?

imnoprojustgood on February 1, 2009

Worst beat ever! I was was playing in only a $2.25 tournament thank god and I get moved to another table. Everyone at the table had less than 6,000 chips except one person and I think I was in like 70th place out of 700 with 5,000 chips. This girl named Vickie had like 24K and the tournament had just started so I asked how she got all her chips and she said she just beat a bunch of people trying to leave. So I said If your going to leave give them to me and she gave me 5,000 at one point. Then when I had 14,000 it was just me and her and I told her to go all in after the flop. She had J,2, and I had 10,k. So we both go all in after the flop which was 2,10,10 and the next two cards are J,J. That pissed me off so bad especially if she just handed them over to someone else. It was only 2.25, but it happens all the time if I could set up a bunch of accounts and prove it was rigged by playing over 10,000 hands on a few accounts I would.

TRauck on February 1, 2009

I also know they cheat and I think it has something to do with like a win loose system depending on how good you do. For instance, I know 3 people that have gotten first place the first time they played on ftp. 2 of them one over $1,000 in a tournament and I won 150 in a 1 dollar game. I didn't even know the hands at the time! Since then I've gotten much better and it's so different from live it's insane or even different from sites like carbon poker.

TRauck on February 1, 2009

Soooo I played a 18 person ten dollar game as my last one... fairly early into the game i get pocket kings... I just call hoping some folks behind me go crazy... They do and I re raise to 500... One caller... Flop comes jack ten 3 two spades.... I raise again... get a call... flop comes a club something low i forget....

Anyway... long story short I had Pocket kings against big slick clubs... So again, I get beat with a very good hand w/o even having the over card play.... I know this isn't a horrible beat in terms of poker, but to have this stuff happen constantly after you cash out is a joke.

jaywepp on January 30, 2009

Well started going on a losing streak where I just couldn't win... won't call this the rigged part, just kept running into people where if you were all in preflop with aces they had jacks and hit the jacks.. so whatever. I hit my cutoff point and cashed out leaving 30 in the bank.

Played a 20 dollar game and was co-chip leader with about 6 folks left in. I get pocket aces and raise minimum bet... the other chip leader re-raises, I do likewise and he goes all int... I have pocket aces against his pocket jacks... Really, who puts their co-leading stack on the line with jacks? Well wouldn't you know it, Jack hits the flop.

So once again, ominating hans losing to lesser ones when you cash out. It was funny the night before I had the same thing happen as well, but just chalked it up to bad lck at the time.

got 11 bucks left and we'll see what happens... Just good to know you can predict full-tilt.

jaywepp on January 30, 2009

Ok. So I haven't played in 6 months or more. Had a few minutes to kill, so sat in a .25/.50 NL game. First 2 hands I played (out of about 8 deals) I have JJ and then JKs.

First hand guy comes in wth K5 and they deal 2 5 2 5 9. Other hand guy is in with 89os and they deal xJ710x.

This site is totally criminal. Really don't want to debate it, just posted it here for the non-believers.

Remember I haven't played there in over 6 months and this if the first two hands I play after only 10 mintues, and they are, as usual, full rigged tilt scam hands. I have no idea how anyone who plays real poker can play on this criminal site! It's impossible to trust your hand, real odds or have anything near normal distribution of cards.

nitemare6 on January 26, 2009

Well got my pot up to a high of 250.. including a second place finish in a 45 person five dollar tourney (would have one if the guy didn't catch a river card).

So still just playing the string out a bit... If i get to 200 i'll cash out.. Just won another 5 dollar one, so seeing where it goes. Trying to pay for a Key West trip with this money=)

jaywepp on January 26, 2009

Well just so I can document it with evryone.... I started up on full tilt with another 60... two games and I have it up to 160.

Now, i'll play one more ten dollar game and cash out at least 100. I'll play some low level games then and see how the cards fall.

jaywepp on January 23, 2009

if the sites aren't cheating or if there ever becomes an honest site,you'll still have the possibility of outside hacking. i would guess that just about every site is involved in some form of cheating.i thought about playing in a style that would avoid those set-up hands but,thats crazy...that has to be bad for your live play and most likely you'll still lose.

msleo on January 22, 2009

If you play live - you can definetly see that the card patterns are way out of whack with what you experience at a live table. It is not even close. The last time I played Full TIlt there was a flop of A, Q and 10 of diamonds. Four "all ins" followed.

One AQ clubs (flopped top 2 pair)
One 10 10 (flopped a set)
One k 9 of diamonds (flopped nut flush and gut shot straight flush)
One AK (flopped top pair - gut straight draw)

Turn was a Q (Full house ahead for a fleeting moment) and river was a 10 for quads.

That has never happened to me in the thousands of live games I play. (ps - I folded pocket 88 pre-flop thank God).

I know that I am not psychic - but in on-line I can call the cards turn and river half the time - I make a game out of it. If I got pocket 10 10 versus 9 9 and I flop a ten - I know that they are going to four flush. You can just shout it out. If I have AK vs A7 and the flop comes A - I know the 7 is hitting the river.

I had to stop because it was really screwing up my live play - I thought that on-line would be a great place to practice - nooooooo. When I play live and I get in with the best hand, they hold up pretty much along the odds you expect them to. In on-line, I foking tremble if I get KK, AA, AK etc because I know it is the set-up hand. I even thought of playing a tourney (haven't yet) where I jsut fold pocket pairs no matter what they are and see if that would improve my outcomes - but who wants to do that.

I am tired of the folks who say there are just more hands (because the number of hands played to not change odds - AA is AA whether you play 10 hands an hour or a hundrend and it should be an underpair 80% - on on-line it does not (I hover right around 50%). I am tired of folks who say it's because people play more bad hands - in live poker, people who play hands lose pretty soon - not in on-line - and again - the fact that someone calls with 7 2 offsuit to your Kings does not change odds). I am tired of the no incentive arguement - of course there is (rake, quicker tourneys, etc. etc.)

I am mostly tired of folks who say prove it is rigged - if I post hand histories - that is not enough data. Only Full Tilt has the complete hand histories and they refuse to have an audit done of their RNG to see if it is truly generating hand results consistent with what one would expect. Shame on them. So - the simple truth is this - No one knows if the site is rigged and the only folks who are in position to prove it is not refuse to do so. So - until there is an independent audit done - I will stay on the rigged side of the fence.

eldave1 on January 21, 2009

there were times i sat down with 150.00.
the point is , this happened just to get me to deposit again.

msleo on January 21, 2009

You sat down at a 1/2 nl table with $20? lol, that's funny.

mike

mrkromer on January 21, 2009

i started playing on full tilt in july of 08. five months and 6,000 dollars later i decided to close my account. 3 weeks after my acct. was closed i had an insta check withdraw come through for 150.00.can you believe that? i had to close and re-open a new acct. its a good thing i happened to check my acct. on line and caught it before my bank paid it.they tried to slip that charge through.that is a perfect example of just how corrupt full tilt is.not to mention the fixed hands and runner runner beats.another thing is i would deposit 50. sit down at a 1-2 nl table with a minimum of 20. 15 hands later(after my aces were cracked or something) i would try to get more chips and all of the sudden the minimum would be 40. i would only have 30 left so either deposit more or go to another table. i could go on and on and on. ALL ON LINE POKER IS RIGGED. IF MAN CAN PROGRAM IT, MAN CAN MANIPULATE IT. its that simple.when someone comes up with a site that uses live video with a live dealer then MAYBE i'll play again. all of the top pros who take sponsor money from full tilt should be ashamed of themselves. has the withdraw attempt that i spoke of earlier happened to anyone else?

by the way i live in souther chester county,about 45 minutes from philly and im always looking to meet new people and new home games.

msleo on January 20, 2009

I couldnt agree with you more. I stopped playing Ultimate bet several years ago because I started keeping track of hands , what was happening in the big tourneys etc. I really was doing so well on that site, actually build up a little "reputation" for myself, lol. I really excelled in the big tourneys, so i would take my winngins to the money tables, and my bankroll of course. I would cash out about every week. I noticed that for a certain period after I cashed out, I couldnt win to save my life. I suffered the worst bad beats, and before I cashed out I could do not wrong! So I really started paying attention, and everything just seemed so unrealistic. The way the cards came out. In one round, there could be A's K's and J's ont he table . That rarely ever happens. SO after a while I sent UB a long email how I thought they were crooked, and how dissappointed i was, and completely losing my faith in internet poker. Now I've joined Full tilt after a few years I'm back in again, doing really great, but the pattern seems to be the same there.....you can't win too much, they will take it away folks....and LIke Jay I believe said, DONT cash out unless you know your not gonna play for a while lol. Thats what I did:)
PEace to all the awesome poker players out there!
Niki

suprbikegirl on January 19, 2009

i have been a very successful player on fulltilt but that has all changed since I won the Sunday 750k, and cashed very high in a few other high payout tourneys...... Ever since I cashed out my winnings on full tilt I have had nothing but bad beats, bad cards and unbelievable suck outs.... People like to say that online poker has alot of variance, I say its the site punishing you for cashing out(ie... cashout curse).... hmm. also if your the big stack at a table just call any small stacks "all in" with any hand, you will usually win no matter how far behind you are pre or post flop... Can someone explain to me how all the tourneys start and end at roughly the same time week in and week out... that is impossible... I have played in a few live tourneys where the event was scheduled for 3 days but ended in two day, as well I was in a tourney that was scheduled for one day and ended spilling deep in to the next day making it last 2 days.. Full tilts 750k always starts at 6pm est - and ends between 2:30/3am est.... with no doubt it always starts and ends between these times, that is impossible in itself aswell......

the final straw for me was tonight (Sunday 1/18) I played the 1 million guarantee ($500 buy in on full tilt) and was quickly bad beat out of the tourney on awful garbage.... I had aa, hit set on rainbow flop, and lost to runner runner flush... Then I had pckt qq and lost to runner runner straight.. the final knock out was my all in Ak vs A 10, hit A on flop and amazing and expected 10 on river to be eliminated.... garbage, rigged, garbage.... I am now in the belief that these online sites (full tilt as well as pokerstars,etc...) purposely build in these bad beats and horrible suck outs to level the playing field between the fish and good players... If full tilt ran a truly fair game then all the bad players (fish) would be out of their bankrolls.. In order to keep traffic up on the sites they make it so that any one ( no matter how bad they play) can win.. heres my proof... have any of you ever watched the final 2 or 3 tables of full tilts sunday 750k or pokerstars 1 million guarantee? the players are horrible.. you mean to tell me that a player can outlast a field of 4,000/8,000 or more players only to donk off their chips with an any Ax (Ace/rag)? I mean seriously, these players have no business being this far in a tourney like this, but the online sites make it possible... I guarantee that none of these aforementioned players would make it past the first or second level in high payout live tourney..

so anyways I just emailed full tilt and instructed them to close my account and close my deposit options as well... I told them basically of what I thought of the site and what garbage it is.... I now play exclusively at pokerstars, although pokerstars also has some peculiar/head scratching shuffles as well but what am i gonna do, i need somewhere to play.....

billytk01 on January 18, 2009

So sat down.. put sixty in ... one a 30 dollar tourney and made the mistake of cashing out...

I played very tight waiting for cards... well for two straight games.. the cards never came... I finally get eliminated when my pocket fives are up against ace seven.... and he never even hit the ace or the seven.... I ended up making trips on the river! Bad news is that it made a 4 card straight for the guy=()

If anyone here learns one lesson... DO NOT CASH OUT unless you are done playing or sure you want that money. You simply are not allowed to win after cashing out. I guess the logic is that you have some money coming to you, maybe you'll cancel the payment and use your winnings.

jaywepp on January 17, 2009

Okay... been awhile since i played on full tilt and since i've posted....

So i put fifty in... run it up to 150 playin UBER tight andd cash out 100... lose the 50 remaining...

No biggiee.. but i'm bored one night and put another fifty in... lose that... might be my fault... put another sixty in and get that over 100.

Now here is where it gets interesting.... I come home and play some games tonight... I lost three games with a river card... I just finished out my money with a hand that i don't even know i truly lost!!!

I had pocket fours... guy had ace king of hearts against me... I hit four on the flop and there isn't a flush draw... well the river comes and i still don't think a flush was out there.... But before i can blink i'm out of the game and can't see what happened!!!

I don't want to sound like a bad loser, but i've been playing as tight as a human can play and i keep catching literally runner runner or miracle river cards. For anyone to think there isn't someting up with this site, you're being willfully ignorant. And again, i'm not even sure i lost my last hand

jaywepp on January 8, 2009

Why I am geeing same hands ( even same suits sometimes), when i play on 2 diff. tables? is it hands i suppose to get or what? I do not trust this site anymore.

k2offsuitwins on January 7, 2009

Since my incredibly run of bad luck on Full Tilt back in July and August I haven't had much to say. That is because I haven't played on Full Tilt very often. Instead I've been heading to my local casino where the cards definitely seem to be more random.

I've had more time to play poker recently over the holidays and have invested in the tournaments and SNG's on Full Tilt. Having played regularly at the casino and being used to the card distributions there I am astounded at how obviously flawed the cards are on Full Tilt.

Aone who suggests that it just appears that there are more bad beats and action flops on Full Tilt because of the rate of flops seen need to get their heads read.

I may have repeated this before but these are the most obvious and glaring anomolies on Full Tilt from my experience:

1) Aces get cracked heads up more than 50% of the time. Nowadays when I see AA on Full Tilt I know my tournament life is at risk. This doesn't make statistical sense to intuit AA as a losing hand but on Full Tilt it will get you knocked out more than any other hand (excpet maybe KK). If you see my stats on OPR, I do fairly well at single table SNGs but I have a host of games where I come 9 out of 9 or 8 out of 9. Most of those were due to getting AA early in the game and having them cracked.
2) Bad beats are horrendous. Playing on Full Tult is like dodging land mines and the bigger your hand the more likely an opponent has the cold nuts. Many times I'll flop a set and the card which gave me my set will give an opponent a straight. When I get straight I am often beaten by a flush and so forth.
3) This is perhaps the most consistent and glaring pattern I experience on Full Tilt. After I've had a few cashes and won a profit of any type I am immediately besieged by bad luck. I get runs of bad cards, constant bad beats and cannot win a showdown. Have you ever been so unlucky on Full Tilt that you lose just about *every* showdown in a given time interval no matter how in front you are? I find this happens a lot after I've won some money. The end result is that I can never consolidate profit with more wins because I will go on a terrible losing streak and end up losing back all my profits. This cycle has been perennial in my experience in Full Tilt.

I am seriously appalled by this site and disappointed because it has many qualities, but it does not deal fair cards.

Ant8472 on January 2, 2009

I have been playing fulltilt for years and i am now going to give up and move on i have finally noticed that whatever you deposit it will let you win and eventually make you loos it all leaving you with an empty bank roll recently when i played my trip 10's with a kicker jack lost to trip 10's with a queen. Another example of it being rigged was when my trip kings lost to a trip ace which was caught on a river. This always happens to me after i have one a large amount of cash so i am warning you if you are going to play fulltilt GET OUT WHEN YOU WIN BECAUSE THEY WILL MAKE YOU LOOSE IT ALL..

Yeshiem on December 19, 2008

Got agree Donks - just for kicks - I have been observing - the hand suck outs are just incredible (take that back - unbelievable). Time after time the poor SOB who gets in with the best hand - no matter how good - goes down and it always seems to a few select folks at a table. Just watched a hand - guy with AA shoves 5 times BB. One caller - flop is A 10 7 - the caller goes all in and the AA snaps call. His opponent shows 10 7 offsuit. Turn comes 10 and and I say to myself - here it comes - sure as shit - 10 on the river. Guy with the AA goes nuts and eventually leaves. Our hero with the 10-7 wins a bunch of other hands that he had no business winning and I eventually leave having seen htis pattern so many times before. The real shame is this - I love playing poker and fortunately for me I live in the LA area so I can get to a dozen B&M casinos in a snap - so I get to play live about 4 or 5 times a week - do pretty well too. I used to like online cause I thought it was a great vehicle to practice - nope! The patterns are so unrealistic (and they are)that it is horrible for even that purposes (in fact - really started screwing up my live play and I had to detox from it for a few weeks to get my live play back to snuff. I talk to dozens of live players each week who have also abandoned on-line - especially Full Tilt - the business will swallow it's golden egg soon.

eldave1 on December 16, 2008

I changed my mind. This site is totally rigged. I had not played on it in a couple of years and had a great run getting my bankroll up to $2800 from a single satellite token. It didn't suprise me. I know I play well. I have beaten every online site I have ever played at, starting with just $50 at Paradise Poker and parlaying it into multiple cashouts at PokerRoom, Full Tilt and stars. I went back to FT after a run of bad luck at Stars putting me down to a minimal bankroll, I came back to FT and played the token I had left in the account and had a great run.

Since then, I have seen so much ridiculous stuff in losing almost half my bankroll, that I am convinced that all guys that have complained are correct. I am not talking about AA getting busted all in preflop, my style is more typically small ball. I mean a consistent run of people that are absolutely dominated with 4 outs or less beating me after a push at the turn. Dozens and dozens of these types of hands over the course of that last couple hundred of tourneys. Hands that are complete set ups, pairs that hit sets that are beaten by straights with cards that should never even call the first raise. Top two pair gets sucked out on by sets after the chips are in. OVER AND OVER!!! I obviously commited the cardinal sin on this site, I won consistently and they boom switched me. What a crock. I am cashing out the money I have left and I will hang onto it until Americans can play at a site that opens there software to independent audit. Pokerroom had the most legitamate deal of any site I played at, IMO, I miss it like hell.

I was wrong- FULL TILT IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT!!!

P.S- I noticed the same crap at stars once I reached a certain bankroll. I am happy to leave FT +$1435; so FU to the guy that called me dumb. I may be opinionated and cocky, but I ain't stupid!!!

ThankGod4Donks on December 8, 2008

Where to begin....
I know people here have varying opinions as to whether this site(or any other in some cases!)is rigged,so i thought i would throw my penny into the mix.
Every instinct tells me that this site is rigged,the cards are ridiculous,as a couple of examples(trust me,there are MANY more!)
1 I am dealt kk,flop comes down kk9,i go all in,and get called by AA,turn is A,river is A,i almost dismantle my monitor with my bare hands!(I dont know odds,but please guys,no-one patronise me by saying this proves nothing)
2 im dealt qq,guy raises me,so i go all in,hes got 9 j off,flop comes down,10 K 6,turn 2,river q(one of the other players on the table says he had a q so the guy the only remaining q,and on the river too),coincidence? possibly,but more evidence of schonkiness of this excuse for a poker site.
I know a couple of anecdotal instances dont make a watertight case,but these are only the most recent,judge for yourselves guys,but i wont be giving this sorry excuse for a poker site any more of my childrens inheritance!
So to paraphrase Leonard Nimoy,its poker Jim,but not as we know it.

kinjesus on December 1, 2008

This is the worst ever. Yesterday I wanted to kill myself due to the third one-outer in just 20 minutes. I lost over $3,000 due to bad beats. My kings lost to ace-x 94 out of 127 times. My aces lost 49% of the times. While looking at QJ, board QJ2Q, my opponent moved in with aces and i knew what the river would be... exactly. I just lost another $100 to full tillt joker poker. This is rigged as hell, I just sent them an e-mail with a lot of questions. How can I move in with the best of it almost every time and lose? If i see those creators i'll rip them apart, that's for sure.

donx on December 1, 2008

Just for fun - try this for an experiment at FT. Either play or observe a table. Count the number of times at least two cards of the same suit hit the flop. Everything I looked at says it is around a 12% probability. I have now counted 400 flops - I am at 55% (that's right - 55% of the time two cards of the same suite hit the flop) - Only 400 hands - but wow. Thought it might be a fun experiment for us to try since it is easy to do.

eldave1 on November 24, 2008

To 'ThankGod4Donks' comments,

If you want folks to listen, place reason without attacking the folks who've posted. Calling someone's comments 'stupid', calling everyone here 'crybabies', and attacking the quality of their gameplay will not prove anything.

So, speaking of 'stupid', 'crybabies', and 'gameplay', go back and read your post. You contradict yourself with crying about collusion, sophisticated bots, and hacks. After you cry about these items, you demand evidence to convince you about deals?...and add within your comments "Don't get me wrong..."? Seriously, do you really think anyone will listen to you after jabbing at their abilities or questioning their intelligence?

All you've done is convince readers that you are hypocritical, can't recognize your own double-standards, not a good writer, or simply dumb.

Thus, after you've "steamed" about this post, perhaps you should play an online game or two. After you lose, just blame it on your hacks, bots, and collusion...heck, sounds like you've already got your excuses ready. By the way, you got any hard-and-fast evidence about your 'bots'?

P.S. - Why would anyone think you work for the 'site'? Is it because of how certain you are of hacks and bots? What's next?...aliens? Bigfoot?

KeepItConstructive on November 23, 2008

I am at witts end with Full Tilt. I cant trust it anymore. I always suspected it was rigged but I'm reasonably ceartain now. I'm not talking about super players or bots, I mean rediculous varience to keep money in the pockets of the fish just as much as the good players. I'm talking about a "random number generator" so good that every 1 stays at about the same amount of money with he obvious benefit to full suck out being more and more rake money. Rake money is why they run the site is it not? and with no one to audit them and the absolute worst customer service I've ever seen. I couldn't even get them to give me a response on 3 tries to match the question I had asked whats gonna stop them. I had my chat removed for "begging for $5" in the $8/$16 razz game I play in. Cmon lets consider the logic here. I have hundreds of dollars infront of me at this table and I'm gonna beg for $5 ya that makes sense well done full tilt. What had really happened is that this guy harrassed me for hours for $5 and I immitated him once and he must have copy and pasted it and sent it to support. So to sum it up I was the one harrassed for hours by a degenerate gambler begging for $5 and as result I get my chat banned for a month and get convicted of something I'm so obviously not guilty of that someone with an IQ of 50 could figure out that it's just not logical. never another red cent thease goofs will ever see

SeriouslyAgain? on November 22, 2008

Dylan James - in the last 4 years and being a strong critic of online RNGs and Full Tilt in particular, your explanation is one of the few reasonable statements that actually makes good sense, and indeed might actually be close to a correct analysis. I however still think that Full Tilt's RNG is skewed and whether this the result of a technical or prgramming flaw or the result of greed remains to be seen ! I personally can no longer trust the site with any significant money and would prefer to get beaten in a live game then always feeling paranoid that Full Rigged Tilt is scamming! It takes the fun out of the game AND I play differently when I am always thinking that my 2p are gonna get sucked out or my TPTK will rarely win.

nitemare6 on November 19, 2008

That is very true. I forgot to mention that you should definitely be wary of online poker. They are after all a business and I do not trust any businesses at all. And it is interesting that Full Tilt's RNG has never been audited officially. I will just wait and see. I actually don't play at FTP anymore I play at Carbon due to the fact that it has a much lower traffic rate.

Dylan James on November 18, 2008

I hope you are right Dylan - but I must say until they get audits of their hand results I will remain skeptical. It is one thing for them to attest that their results are random (anyone can do that). It is another to have it independtly verified. What is troubling is that would be so easy to do - yet they do not do it.

eldave1 on November 18, 2008

I am 18 years old and have been playing poker since I was 16. In both online and in brick and mortar games. (I know it was illegal for me to do so but even Phil Ivey attained a fake ID for it when he first started playing) I used to think online poker was rigged but as I have grown as a poker player I have changed my mind. I'm not going to say people who think online poker is rigged are idiots I'm just going to say that you should think this through. The reason there are so many seemingly amazing suck outs, inexplicable calls, and pockets Aces getting cracked by 8,9 off is because of the amount of morons that play online. Think about it, in heads up play Aces hold up about 85% of the time. Say you had pockets Aces and you raised from first position and you get 4 callers with garbage hands as is common in most online poker rooms. The larger the room the more common. Anyway, there are 4 callers. That right there makes your Aces only hold up about 56% of the time greatly diminishing their value. Now you've got 4 idiots that can beat you with two pair, straights, sets, or flushes. That's going to happen a lot more often than your Aces holding up against that many cards left in the deck. They have way more outs than you do. The odds are about 11.5 to 1 that you're going to hit an Ace and they have much more outs than you. Now this scenario does not happen to pro poker players playing with pro poker players because pros aren't going to call a raise from first position with shitty cards. If you had one person call your raise that makes your aces much more valuable and the possibility of somebody sucking out is much less. But bad beats happen to pros all the time. Check out he video of Gus Hansen and Daniel Negreanu playing on high stakes poker. But you don't see them playing garbage hands all the time. I guarantee that if a bunch of idiots played with the pros they would be sucking out left and right. Many people on the internet do not understand poker at all and that means that luck plays a much heavier roll. And besides even that most of you don't remember many of your huge pots. You remember your bad beats. It's human nature. Doyle Brunson talked about this I believe. All in all I believe online poker seems rigged because of how many people with garbage stay in the pot no matter what. They're not thinking and therefore it seems that the place is rigged because your good cards get beat by bad cards. Odds only apply when people are actually paying attention to the game. Otherwise, it's just like dice.

Dylan James on November 17, 2008

Okay dokay - done with Full Tilt for me. In t he past when I emailed then regarding the randomness of their card server I got the typical we use RNG, etc. etc. - Okay I said - must be me. However, odd crap just kept happening (inexplicable calls of all ins with unbelievable suckouts as a result, etc.). So - I kept my own stats. After 1000 all in showdowns (not hands - just pure showdowns)

* When I am the favorite I only win 48%
* When I am the dog I lose 79%

Pocket Aces were the worse of all things - they held up 47% (geesh). So - after playing in a SNG where I had aces cracked twice AND - for the entire table the favorite in all in showdowns lost 13 out of 17 times - the last being my KQ of hearts versus 87 off suit (great call of my all in)I once gain emailed Full Tilt. I wanted to know who audited their site to ensure that results were truly random. Their response:

"We are evaluating several well-known auditing firms and hope to have our shuffling and dealing
processes officially audited in the near future."

Bsscially - THEY DON"T HAVE AN INDEPENDENT AUDIT TO CONFIRM THAT THEIR DEALING IS RANDOM! I can see why they wouldn't - it is only the most important issue facing online players. How could they not??? So basically, everything you hear from this is testimonial in nature and not supported by any review.

So - I am done listening to the folks who tell me there is no incentive (there is - rake), that there is no cheating (wait for the next Absolute scam to surface) and that it is just me. I am a college grad (math major) and have been playing B&M mortar poker for 20 years. This site is simply not random. I am done with it.

eldave1 on November 15, 2008

Why is it that some people are able to consistently beat this site? Because I run into players at almost every table I play that if you look up their statistics on sharkscope, you will find they have positive ROI's over thousands of tourneys. This is not the majority of the players of course as it is tough to beat the rake, but still they are there on the site having played thousands of games and showing thousands of dollars in profits.

Don't get me wrong; I would never feel safe playing in an online ring game- all it takes is a couple of colluders and you are upside down on your odds to win. But for everyone to suggest that the tourneys are somehow rigged or juiced, I don't see that, and I dont get that. A one table tourney takes about the same amount of time to finish every time, same with multitable tourneys. And to the guy that said the deal is juiced at the freaking free tables, do you even know how stupid that sounds?

I don't notice anything strange with the deals or knockouts that would make me think that the site is trying to speed things up. I do see a lot of dumb play out there, which of course results in a lot of bad beats ( and I have suffered PLENTY), but I recognize this as a good thing.

Look, I believe there have been hacks that have allowed people to cheat (they are updating software frequently I suspect in part to combat this), and there are probably some very sophisticated bots. But if you want to convince me that the deal is skewed on these sites you're going to have to come up with a statistical hand analysis or some real evidence. It should be easy enough to do as there are plenty of hand tracking softwares available. But please, don't give me this "I am a good player but I always lose to Donkeys" stuff because as far as I know, you're not that good.

Well, you crybabies can get to calling me names now, I MUST work for the site!

P.S.- the guy who posted the a-2 crap crap unsuited hand has no idea how to play Omaha Hi Lo

ThankGod4Donks on November 3, 2008

Why is it rigged? What is the motive?

So the majority of players (most are bad) can thrive and be viable/long lasting customers for the fulltilt racket...

Anyone that pulls money out (good players) are viewed as a threat to the fulltilt racket...

The bad beats and the suckouts serve two purposes. To keep the bad players thriving thus maximizing "rake" across the board and to trick the "good" player into depositing more money thinking the 1% probability suckout loss was just a fluke.

This is fact and the most profitable way to run the business. Can they tweak the software? Absolutely.

Profit motive + unregulated environment = Full blown corruption.

SHUTDOWN FULLTILT on October 25, 2008

stormtrooper really hit the nail on the head...
he actually made it sound very basic and simple...
i find at higher limits the play def has a more random feel to it... alot of 9 3's and dead flops, much like playing at a live casino...
at the lower limits i'm like a card rack, and when i step up to the higher limits it seems that those sweet hands are very rare, which i don't mind it keeps you sharp...
i also agree about spotting these "trap" hands scenerios, i've played alot of hands on full tilt and i feel i am almost pro at spotting these scenerios, it's always a plus to be and i quote a "scared" player, it's not like i'm scared to play , for example, if i'm dealt kings under the gun and i overbet raise and someone calls me and the flop doesn't look intimidating for kk... say like 5 10 8, now any good player should already be thinking of possible hands that can have him beat, like pocket 5's 10's or 8's or the draw hands like 7 9 or q10... most of the time i'm in the right ballpark at where my hand stands, and i def hit the brakes to see what the other player does... bieng wreckless and firing away at it takes the control completely out of your hands... the one thing in poker you must remember is you can always fold... its the only guarentee...
maybe because i've played so many hands and seen so many "rigged" situations i am able to spot these scenerios and get away from em... stormtrooper really put it into perspective for me...

joolesnfools2 on October 21, 2008

Hey everyone....listen...I love this forum topic because I agree with what is being said here 100%.
Well....let me start off by saying that I've been playing poker ( live and online ) for about 7 years.
I've played quite a lot here in LA as there are many places to play ( Commerce Casino, The Bicycle Club,etc.) For 7 years, i have dedicated thousands of hours regarding the study of Poker, as I probably have 80% of the all the books ever written on the subject. Usually when I play live ..I play at a nearby casino called The Hawaiian Gardens Casino. Since my work schedule and family obligations keep me busy...I find it easier to play online mostly now. Specifically FT. After playing thousands of hands...you should be able to see distinct patterns of almost predictable rigged poker scenarios. Before I get into why I am certain Full Tilt is ( rigged for action at minimum ) ...I'd like to tell you a story of a friend I have who actually works for Full Tilt.
I'll keep his name anonymous.....but I will tell you he works out of their Ireland base. He's been working for Full Tilt for a few years...and confided to me that Full Tilt is very much a "business" that has a bottom line and profit goals. He didn't go as far as say that every hand was rigged, but the did tell me that ABSOLUTELY...the hands dealt on FT are "NOT" random. In addition he told me that their software program functions differently depending on the "level" in which you were playing. In areas where there is a larger rake being collected ( higher limit games ) there is measurably more randomness in comparison to lower limit games. I interpreted this to mean that the higher limit games ( many in which the pros play and big internet studs play is actually ...the MOST random. He did not refute this, but it seemed evident to me. From playing years in live casinos...I do have to admit that you DO see many bad beats quite often.....but not at the unfathomable frequency you do at Full TIlt. Even if you were to statistically measure the bad beat scenarios and monster vs. monster rigged set-up hnads that are common on the site....the ratio of insane plays,bad beats, miracle 1- outers and odds defying catches are not congruent to being dealt more hands per hour. It almost appears that these scenarios exit the world of exception and become the normal expectancy. This is where you start asking yourself, is the card distribution really random? My gut tells me ....absolutely not..... A long time ago ...my father told me to remember that anything that involves money and profit is corrupted. Full Tilt is no exception.
Now...many of you guys know what I'm talking about...after playing thousands and thousands of hands....a clear pattern and predictability starts to appear in various scenarios, depending on the circumstances. Scenarios I like to call the "Classic FT rigged set-up hand." The funny thing is that if you can readily identify these scenarios, you can actually avoid SOME of them. No really...its sounds crazy folding Jacks or queens...but very often...probably with 50-70% reliability I make the right call to lay them down with minimal info at best.
I'm sure that many of you have seen classic patterns at various stages of the game like for example....there are many predictable occurences when your at the bubble stage of a low limit SNG.
In some later posts, I'll give you my own Top 10 classic rigged set-up hands. I do need to tell you....I currently have close to a 50% ITM....and I have been successful in live games. Online is completely different. Give me your guys input...

Stormtrooper73 on October 20, 2008

oh and one more thing...
the pattern that i can honestly say i find the most interesting, that makes me think the site could possibly be juiced way more than any bad beat... is this... this happens to me all the time i swear...whenever i pull off a really sick bluff...
i'm not talkin one of those semi bluff on a draw shts... like a real sick one... the ones that would got you shot in the wild west days bluff...
ok i'm getting carried away...anywayz after i pull these bluffs off they always shoot me a good hand like jj qq kk aa or ak the very next hand...
granted i don't make sick rediculous stone cold ice bets that often so... everytime i do tho it's like they reward me with kk it's great

joolesnfools2 on October 20, 2008

whah whah whah....
what a bunch of crybabys, first off if fulltilt is really scamming people people like us we will never know...
it's like those crazies saying 9-11 was an inside job... these are things one will simply never know...
i was reading a comment that really made me laugh, it went something like this, ft is a scam, all the hands are predetermined, flop, turn and river... well duh, it's not like the cards are randomly spinning like a slot machine and then when it comes time, spits out a random card...
comon think about it... when your playing live the dealer shuffles the deck and then cuts it... that's it the deck is now locked in...
there is nothing that can change this...
the flop, turn, and river are still going to be the same...
so the person who is saying that all ft hands are predetermined is just simply agreeing with this example...
it seems to me that people are complaining more about the bad beats, like runner runner bs...
in this case it's more likely that a scam can be involved, if a sim or bot player is seated at a table and needs runner runner to make a winning hand they could "alter" the preset deck to have two rediculous "jacks" pop off the deck, but this theory doesn't hold up one bit, if whatever source that is in control of the hand can see that it's "player" is drawing dead than what's the plan?
i believe the deck is randomly shuffled just like a vegas slot and then is locked,that's it, say no more, whatever happens happens...they cant just plugin sumthin like this "oh this bot player needs all a 4 DIAMOND BOARD,lets just change the predetermined flop turn and river to give him what he needs?" i mean what if those cards are already in play or mucked? don't you think sumone would notice the ten of diamonds they mucked that buried some poor guy on the river, i mean there is a certian amount of outs one has in any given hand... if the program thats ripping people off takes the cards that are left in the deck and rearranges them to benefit one player than so be it...
we will never know...
but seriously all these people ranting and raving about how it's rigged are just looking like a bunch of whiners that don't understand the cosmic tendencies of poker...
but even then we will never know...
all poker sites run off of the same engine you dummies... so if fullilt is scamming people so is pokerstars and bodog, i've had my share of rediculous bad beats that made me wonder... and i'm not saying these sites aren't rigged...
i'm not saying they are...
i particulalrly like ft due to its fast paced action, the action on pokerstars is so slow, i'd rather see 100 bad beat crazy hands in an hour than say 50 boring ace high ones on pokerstars...
i mean comon, how many times have you flopped a nut flush on full tilt? plenty, so stop complaining... or how many times in a tournament have you been dealt a 9 2 offsuit? plenty...
there just bad beats... learn to deal with it, statistics don't mean anything because nothing is set in stone anyway when it comes to how many suited flops should appear and all that mumbo jumbo... hello? that's why we call it poker folks... there's no promises, stupid players are commonly rewarded in this game, ask the pros who play live games, it's no different, a bad beat is a bad beat, no matter where you play what you play or who is "playing" you,learn to deal with it, and move on... geez...people are acting like good cards never get beat by rags...

joolesnfools2 on October 19, 2008

Another classic full rigged tilt gem - I'm not stupid enough to play real money. Although i won this hand the principle is the same and if you play here you'll gt beat like this:
As is the norm on this site i limp along with 86 suited (flush boards are so common unsuited cards are worthless). Both blinds saw the flop but folded before the river making 4 player originaly.
Me: 86c
opponant: 63s
flop: 2d5h4s - bb bets half pot my and op call
turn: 3d - bb checks, i bet half pot, op calls, bb folds
river: 7h - i bet half pot again, op min raises, i reraise again and they call.

Floping the nut strait, as demonstrated by this hand, should be an extreemely stressful time for any FRT player as they are going to get sucked out about 100% of the time to ANYONE drawing to a better hand including the most rediculous runner -runner draws you will ever see.

Turbo Steve on October 10, 2008

Simo1981-you can get the low nuts with xx45 if the board is xxA23 (or any other combination that gives you the wheel). I just put that in the list because you run a serious risk of getting quartered by playing xxA2 on FTP.

kdanwill on September 3, 2008

I agree with mike, playing xxA2 in omaha h/l is not a bad play, you cant get the low nuts without those cards. i play these cards most of the time unless there has been raising and reraising to the limit pre flop

simo1981 on September 3, 2008

Those are pretty good, it's like Murphy's Law for FT. But #15 and #16 generally hold true a lot of places because of the nature of limit and hi/lo omaha. Other than that, those bring back a lot of memories!!!

mike

mrkromer on September 3, 2008

I'll continue kdanwills' list. 21) Slow play gets you sucked out every time. 22) In a three handed pot the winning hand is usually the one least likely to win.

Turbo Steve on September 2, 2008

Twenty Things I've Learned About Full Tilt
1) Nobody folds an ace. People would rather witness the death of their firstborn than throw an ace into the muck.
2) When you are shortstacked and looking at pocket ladies, somebody has aces or kings.
3) Every hand, there are at least two people playing suited cards, usually both below a ten.
4) Winning percentages do not matter to the bigger stack. You will win 85% of the time regardless of your cards.
5) Top pair after the flop generally means nothing.
6) You have to play hold ‘em like Omaha, meaning that two pair is the minimum to win a hand and when there are three suited cards, most of the time your opponent will have a flush.
7) If you are all-in on 4th street or sooner when playing Razz, expect to make pairs or draw face cards.
8) The opposite is true for stud.
9) Suited connectors win more than pocket aces.
10) Expect to be check-raised at least once a hand.
11) Most players play AK suited like they have already made a royal flush, regardless of the cards on the board.
12) When you think to yourself, “They can't possibly have, 4-6, 5-8, etc.,” they do.
13) The German players will keep hitting the raise button like meth addicts. Take their money as you see fit.
14) Most players do not know the definition of a value bet.
15) Nobody folds xxA2 pre-flop in Omaha Hi/Lo
16) If you want to get sucked out on the river every time, play limit hold ‘em.
17) Only play freerolls after you have been drinking, therefore you might find some humor in the play of your opponents and the beats you will take.
18) When playing in a freeroll, time out every third hand just to make things interesting.
19) 20% odds win 80% of the time.
20) After you make a withdrawal of your winnings, expect to go on a losing streak the likes of which you have never seen before.

kdanwill on September 1, 2008

I get a good laugh out of FTP support. I've asked them on mutiple occasions to share the results of the audits they have done that supposedly prove their software is random. They completely ignore the requests, but do assure me that they are "certain" their software is random. I've also asked them why, when I track hands in an admittedly statistically invalid way, not once have the numbers even approximated the odds. Variance is the answer. Uh-huh. So I ask if they think it's peculiar that, for example, never have I tracked KK to beat A rag more than what should be expected ... it's every time the case that A rag wins at an unbelievable high rate. Variance is a funny thing, they say.

Well, I must admit I'm a moron who keeps plugging away there. I intentionally played badly a couple months back and ended up 4/775 in a tourney. That was funny and revealing, I thought.

I have dreams of making some final table on TV sometime and wearing a shirt that say "f*ck online poker" or something like that. But, unlikely to happen.

ajk1973 on September 1, 2008

how does counting works? i know how to count, but what is +1 +2...... what do we use it for?

wu977 on August 31, 2008

As a counterpoint to my prior post and my overriding belief that FTP is "rigged">>>>

I just played (5) play-chip tournaments of HORSE on FRT. I won 3 tournaments and finished 3rd in another. This were both 9 and 18 player tournaments.

I did this due to a friend of mine who is a Ph.D. in math saying that "maybe if I didn't quit playing every time I had a "bad beat", i.e. felt the hand was rigged and kept playing what I claim to be solid experienced shrewed poker I would over the "long term" win more".

Well that is what a mathematician would say fter I repeatedly told him ad nauseum about anecdotal "evidence" of ridiculous and improbable beats. So I took his challenge and played in these tournies (and I must say honestly as a big-time critic of FRT that there were some really good players on these tables. Many of the hands did not involve 3-5 players like in the donk small cash games and tournies. Perhaps these were guys who like me had stopped playing cash but still wanted to see if they could compete online, and find legitimate play. Perhaps it was because I have played 20 years and thus am more familar with all games not just hold 'em than newer players. Maybe I got lucky.

nitemare6 on August 28, 2008

ajk193

that is a typical BS rigged hand on full rigged tilt bingo. Sure those things happen sometimes in poker. On full rigged tilt however that is the rule not the exception. Hand values and odds mean nothing to the crooks running that poker site. And beccause players can't mathematically "prove" that it is skewed/rigged etc. they continue to get people defending them, and playing there hoping to beat the rig.

nitemare6 on August 28, 2008

I took a simlar beat the other day, but that was in a freeroll.

Turbo Steve on August 28, 2008

that is fu**ing disgusting

simo1981 on August 28, 2008

Just HAD to share this beat I just suffered in a FTP tourney. About 75% of the time on the luckfest of a site I bust out to horrible moves by bad players, but this one takes the cake. Hand history is posted below. I'm SoDak30, watch the brilliant play of slumz and his unreal suckout, Keep in mind this is late in a tourney with an over-11K first prize ... this donk play put him in 1st or 2d place:

Full Tilt Poker Game #7829989555: $35,000 Guarantee (58794938), Table 51 - 800/1600 Ante 200 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:58:45 ET - 2008/08/27
Seat 1: DonT11 (39,408)
Seat 2: slumz2000 (77,221)
Seat 3: msmemery (16,618)
Seat 5: kice32 (37,090)
Seat 6: SoDak30 (50,490)
Seat 7: Bertrand13 (26,154)
Seat 8: ToBlaeve (20,189)
Seat 9: FijiIslandQueen (7,223)
DonT11 antes 200
slumz2000 antes 200
msmemery antes 200
kice32 antes 200
SoDak30 antes 200
Bertrand13 antes 200
ToBlaeve antes 200
FijiIslandQueen antes 200
SoDak30 posts the small blind of 800
Bertrand13 posts the big blind of 1,600
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SoDak30 [Qd Qs]
ToBlaeve folds
FijiIslandQueen folds
DonT11 folds
slumz2000 has 15 seconds left to act
slumz2000 raises to 4,125
msmemery folds
kice32 folds
SoDak30 calls 3,325
Bertrand13 folds
*** FLOP *** [8h 7c 3h]
SoDak30 bets 8,000
slumz2000 raises to 72,896, and is all in
SoDak30 calls 38,165, and is all in
slumz2000 shows [5h Ac]
SoDak30 shows [Qd Qs]
Uncalled bet of 26,731 returned to slumz2000
*** TURN *** [8h 7c 3h] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [8h 7c 3h 2c] [4d]
slumz2000 shows a straight, Five high
SoDak30 shows a pair of Queens
slumz2000 wins the pot (103,780) with a straight, Five high
SoDak30 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 103,780 | Rake 0
Board: [8h 7c 3h 2c 4d]
Seat 1: DonT11 folded before the Flop
Seat 2: slumz2000 showed [5h Ac] and won (103,780) with a straight, Five high
Seat 3: msmemery folded before the Flop
Seat 5: kice32 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: SoDak30 (small blind) showed [Qd Qs] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: Bertrand13 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: ToBlaeve folded before the Flop
Seat 9: FijiIslandQueen folded before the Flop

Probably most typically of all, after the win slumz showed no humility, but rather cocked off with a "weeeeeeeeeeeee" and a "thanks for the chips." FTP is simply a joke. The hand above isn't some isolated incident ... horrible plays are constantly paid off there and nowhere else have I found my solid play to be more consistely shoved up my ass, especially when it counts.

ajk1973 on August 27, 2008

I never got a t-shirt

simo1981 on August 25, 2008

Please someone enlighten me on how the chip leader ALWAYS wins! This is not some tilting rant about crushing beats. This is an honest question. How the F%$K does the chip leader alway win no matter what? No matter what garbage he/she has they always hit the GD miracle on the river, not sometimes ALWAYS. This is disgusting. I only see it at low levels 24$ and below. Why is that? I play the Sunday tourneys and have placed 18th in the Sunday Brawl and don't see it there so WTF gives. One of you online geniuses please explain this fascinating anomaly to me! I'm all ears. Is it the fact that they have so many chips they can call anything (and should in the right situation 10/1) if so why does this not hold true (every FN hand) at higher levels? They are for the most part much savvier players but they do not win every single pot just because of this factor. So all the idiots that swear online poker is on the up and up in all facets please explain this one to me. This also does not hold true live (at least in my experience). Between the threat of collusion, boiler rooms, and the F-ed up code I stay amazed people actually turn a profit. Maybe I just don't get it online, seems to be: start when your 16, play garbage in any position to any amount no matter what the circumstances and just WIN! WIN! WIN! If you try to improve and better yourself at the game it will only serve to make you crazy online. Live it works great, you can see an improvement in your play and in your bankroll but online just play like an idiot and the site will love you, reward you with amazing perfectly timed suck-outs and send you a little T-shirt. O.K. I'm done.

RookOverHere on August 25, 2008

wow. thanx for this thread. i thought it was me. the experiences reported here are my experiences on ftp. luckily its only been play chips. but i have had stacks of up to 23M just vanish over the course of weeks of ridiculously bad beats. my hand history shows how unbelievably non-random this site is. 23x in a 1500 hands I had ak, aq, aj, at and flopped two pair. ridiculous in itself. but always up against an opponent playing ace-rag. and either rag showed up in flop and then another rag on turn or river. or no rag on flop but turn AND river are rag-rag.

it just got to the point that i was no longer playing poker but just guarding against bad beats. i have 9-10 suited. flop is k, 9, 10. i just know qj has been dealt so i fold. i watch the hand and qj has indeed been dealt. ftp finally resorted to the full house v better full house scenario to break me. and i will never be back.

ftp is all about dealing multiple players a hand or draw that can call an all-in bet. for anybody that's played live poker, its difficult to get paid even when you flop a set from a pocket pair. usually your opponents dont have anything to call with. on ftp they are raising you all-in.

when they get around to auditing their random number generator, audit this. the number of paired flops (flops, not boards) is ridiculously non-random. And with only 2 ranks, it would be typical for all players to miss. but on ftp, take 3,3, king. almost always a 3 and a king will have been dealt. and for more action two players will have a 3.

rake city.

ftp is a bad site to learn on because all it teaches you is that top pair/top kicker or top 2-pair is never good. it gives players such distorted views of the odds that you will either be fearful or broke. and the fearful are only delaying being broke by folding hands that should win.

basically ftp skips all the hands where ace-high or king-high would win. only the action hands are left.

ohsnapkid on August 24, 2008

One of the big problems with online poker: The more popular the site, the more people there are that you will be playing that are prepared to chase even the smallest draw all the way to the river, and hence more potential for someone to suck out on you. For example if the % of these players is 3% then there are 1800 of these donkeys on full tilt at its peak time. Stick to the less popular sites with less traffic and do as I do and close your full tilt account, you are throwing good money after bad.

simo1981 on August 18, 2008

12-03-07

The online poker world tonight is buzzing about the revelation that there has been another cheater caught in a high profile online poker event.

Let's rewind about a month. Chris "BluffMagCV" Vaughn, an employee of Bluff Magazine, took down back to back Sunday Million tournaments. First he took down the Full Tilt $1 Million Guaranteed tournament, and then the very next week he took down the Sunday Millions tournament on Pokerstars playing as "SlippyJacks."

There were rumblings about possible shenanigans in the Full Tilt Poker tournament, but the story didn't really come to light until Soren "Kongsgaard" Kongsgaard posted that he had received an email from Full Tilt Poker stating that "BluffMagCV had been disqualified from the tournament and "Kongsgaard" would be awarded first place money.

The stated reason for the disqualification? Full Tilt Poker said that an already eliminated player had taken over "BluffMagCV"'s account late in the tournament. Apparently the player that took over the account was promised a % of the total profits in exchange for finishing out the tournament.

This player who took over the account is reportedly Sorel "Imper1um" Mizzi, and apparently he too has been banned from Full Tilt Poker.

If Mizzi did in fact participate in this scheme and he was in fact banned from Full Tilt Poker, it is obviously a huge deal, as Mizzi is one of the most popular and successful poker players online. Mizzi has been noticeably absent from Full Tilt Poker as of late, so it would certainly appear to be true.

Full Tilt has been tight-lipped on the matter. What we do know for sure is that "BluffMagCV" was 100% disqualified from that tournament and banned, and that a high profile player took over his account and was also banned. At this point, the evidence would certainly seem to point to Mizzi as the well-known player who took over the account, but we don't have 100% confirmation as of yet.

Was the "Slippyjacks" victory on Pokerstars tainted as well? Pokerstars closely scrutinizes every player who makes it to the final table of any major event on their site, so there is a good chance that they have already investigated and found nothing to be wrong with the victory on Pokerstars. The "SlippyJacks" account is currently not banned on Pokerstars.

You have to wonder how much of this stuff is going on that is never discovered. If the players who perpetrated this scam weren't so reckless, they probably never would have been caught.

This stuff is just horrible for online poker in general, and sites are going to have to come up with a better solution for dealing with this kind of cheating. I wish that the sites would band together, and if a person is caught cheating on one site, they are banned from them all.

Also, I believe that online poker sites need to stop shielding the identities of known cheaters, and start publicly naming people that have been caught cheating. Why shouldn't the public know about it? If you are caught trading stocks in the USA with insider knowledge, you are publicly named by the SEC. What's wrong with that? There has to be a stronger deterrent to cheating. Right now the reward is far greater than the risk of getting caught.

nitemare6 on August 18, 2008

simo1981
August 18, 2008
So you know it, why do you keep coming back?


You are right mate !!Yesterday was the last day even though it was the first day I have played there in 2 months for cash. I wrote them to send me a check since I cannot withdraw with epassporte.

I just dont get how they have become so popular.

nitemare6 on August 18, 2008

So you know it, why do you keep coming back?

simo1981 on August 18, 2008

nitemare6 on August 17, 2008

I FOUND THIS GUY'S POST ON A FTP FORUM:


JayR101

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: -4

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: Is Full Tilt Rigged?

The hands dealt are NOT random hands - NEVER. It's all about the rake and what FT makes on the hand. If a hand wins with less than a 3-of-a-kind at a FULL table, it is only because the person who would have normally won the hand previously folded. If all persons stayed in thru the course of the hand to completion, you would see a 3-of-a-kind or higher each time. Why? Because the hands are NOT random... they are all pre-determined before the hand is ever dealt. It's all about greed at FT... NOT accuracy. You want accuracy, drive to the nearest casino and plop your cash down and look into the eye of your opponents - not the cheesy fake crap here (or any online site). There is a huge difference between the hands you will see there (on a regular basis) and here. It's not REAL or ACCURATE.. never will be... but as long as you realize that and wish to throw your money at FT... please do and ENJOY! But remember this... the higher the potential of the hand being dealt... the higher the bet amount... THE HIGHER THE RAKE FOR FT... they know that... so should you. So, the site IS rigged in that the hands aren't random... they will attempt to generate as much $$$ for FT that they can. As for the 'pros' that come here or are seen in the commercials.. they make an appearance occasionally.. why??? Because they are paid by FT to be a walking billboard... so that FT can get national exposure. They know that FT isn't real poker you find in an actual tournament or casino. It's all about the money... NOT realism. Know it. Live it.

Back to top

nitemare6 on August 17, 2008

please someone tell me this is random poker >>> i am playing ONE time since June in a cash Omaha NL hi/lo game for about 30 f-ing minutes. I am dealt Ah2cKd6d. Flop is A72 rainbow! Ok I got a great low and probably the high hand after the flop with 2p. I bet the pot and guys calls. Turn is Qd. So now in a live game I would think "hmmm maybe he's got Qs up and I can nail him" but on full rigged I thnk "hmmmm maybe he has AQ but thats ok cause I got a great low working too"! Right? So the river is a 3d. WOW... in almost any game in the US I would win at least the Hi OR or the Lo hand. Right? Nope. Not at full fcking scam rigged tilt. Now get this for WHY it is rigged. The guy show AQs 10c 4d. So is it a coincindence that he just happened to have a hand dealt by full tilts RNG that mirrored my hand so that after the flop we both had to bet so full rigged could create more rake and then deliver one of the 3 cards he needed to create As up that were better than my flopped hand of As and 2s! I just cannot believe this crap is random. Its so bad that when I flop two pair I feel ike folding not betting cause I know each time full rigged gives u a decent hand after the flop you can get caught and trapped to lose more chips or cash. Sickening! How can you play poker on such a BS site. And yet I see so many players there night after night. Can anyone explain this to me.

nitemare6 on August 17, 2008

Just finished playing a full rigged freeroll. . For a while i was chip leader, but when the field of 360 narrowed to about 80 my luck turned. Ended up encountering a guy who chipped up by sucking out and whos signiture move was to shove allin to any raise. After folding a few hands i get TT on the bb and it is limped to me so i pot raise. This guy goes allin (with AJ) for about half of my stack and i call and lose the flip. I continue seeing nothing after that whilst the other players continue to suck out (one play had there floped set sucked out by runner-runner bigger boat). It works out that even with my sizable stack and even though i was in the top half of the 28 player field i was the short stack at ~16000 on a table with 6 other players. I finally see AT utg and decide just to try to limp and see a flop. The agressive guy min raised and half the table - including myself- call. Flop - 2s3sTd giving me top fair top kicker. I check another player bets and this guy min raises again which gets called. I decide to find out where i stand and pot raise from the 400 bet to 4000. This guy calls at which point i put him on a draw. Turn 7c - blank i fiugre so i go alling for almost 12000 and this guy calls down again. He shows AH4H. I'm perfectly shore the 5s that came on the river was a perfectly random card and i just got unlucky. Not.

Turbo Steve on August 14, 2008

As ive saiid, no more full rigged tilt. I have started playing on PKR and have had to adjust my style of play yet again! Now I cant go all in pre flop with AK knowing 100% an ace will hit the board somewhere to bust someones KK. Furthermore i have had to learn how to slow play again because you can do that on this site without the river card bending you over! So far the players here have respect for their money and the game i have only seen one flush chaser who missed and an open ended chaser who hit. If I were to say the same about full tilt i would be saying 11 guys chased the flush and 10 hit it and 47 guys chased the straight and 58 hit it LOL. Maybe admin could do a review on PKR as i believe it is only a fairly new site. Last night at 11pm Australian time there were 5000 players online, whereas FRT had 20 odd thousand. Not bad for a new site.

simo1981 on August 12, 2008

I was working at the computer earlier today and decided to play a $1 tournament. 800 players and the I am dealt 4h5s at about the 12th hand. Three players see the flop which is 6s 7s 3h . Yep I flopped a straight. So how to I get paid for this hand. BB bets pot and I just call. Guy to my left calls. Turn is 6h. one player bets minimum and I raise to 900 chips and get a re-raise from player to my left, and I re-raise all in. He calls with Kh8h. So after the flop he had a 7% chance and he "improves" to 18% to beat my flopped straight on the river. Anyone have a guess what the f-uck this scam poker site dealt this donk on the river??!! Yep he gets the miracle 10 hearts and I am knocked out of tournament. This is the last hand I will ever play on this donk site. It's no fun even for a buck. I'd rather play another site for play chips when I can't get to Horseshoe casino. What a joke.

nitemare6 on August 10, 2008

Fuck!!!! Is just sick.
Went to play for 5 minutes. 2nd hand I have pocket Ks. Lot of betting and guy w 10 10 catches 10 on river.
2 hands later - have AK - A on flop - guy w QQ keeps calling and catches Q on river.
Next hand!!! have QQ and guy w 7 9 catches gut shot on river.

kkk777 on August 8, 2008

played a tournament with 2700 players. So I am 88 of 230 and dealt 6s. Short stack is all in PF. BB = 1000Flop is 6 and Jc 8c with the all in and one donk left (who had been making terrible calls all day and sucking out cards from full rigged's RNG). So the turn is a club. 3 clubs on board. I bet all in (8000) and donk with 17000 chip stack calls. In other words he risks 1/2 his chips. He has a Kc and low kicker. FOUR clubs with ONE card to come and he calls my all in bet. Of coruse if the board pairs he is toast so some of his clubs are not even in play. GUESS WHAT THE Fking RIVER CARD WAS?! Yep FULL RIGGEd delivers the low probability river card. Yep he gets a 4th club on the board to win with Kc/4! It's not even fun to play on FriggedT. This was the first game in about 3 weeks and it was a freeroll tournament for a DVD. But the point is you can't play real poker or improve your game on this rigged donk site. I knew soon as the thrid club came out and we showed the cards this retard would suck out his LONG shot.

nitemare6 on August 8, 2008

I was beginning to think along the same lines jaywepp. Maybe Full Tilt isnt rigging the deal, maybe there is no such thing as a true random number generator and what they are using is "close enough'. Close enough is good enough, right? If you read every post about every site on here there are plenty of people claiming that each site is rigged. Is every site risking their reputations by rigging the deal the EXACT same way as each other? Or is it just a conincidence because there is no such thing as a true RNG? I dont know what is more damaging to the reputation of full tilt or any online poker, a rigged rng or the fact that there is no such thing as a truly random number generator? Maybe Full Tilt isnt rigged, maybe the whole concept of online poker is flawed? Perhaps the US government know something we dont and that is why they do not classify it as a game of skill and have put such harsh restrictions on it?

simo1981 on August 7, 2008

I don't know if this will help anyone, but about a month or so ago I put a nother 50 bucks in on a night where i was really bored. I've basically made it a rule that I play no more then 2 games a night. And usually, if I money in the first, I don't even bother with a second.

I'm also limiting my games to ten dollar ones. Sure, you deal with more donks, but it seems to make it more enjoyable. I actually got a new laptop and broke my rule the other night, I went all the way down to 130 before rallying back over 200.

I still am torn a bit to if I think the sight is rigged. I know its not as it should be, but part of me believes its because there is no such thing as a random card/number generator. Patterns always emerge.

I don't know if this is Full Tilt is actively rigging, but it is flawed and nowhere near the real game.

The other night I kept getting A and Mid Card.... Flop twice came 2 aces and whatever. Now the odds of someone else having an ace are pretty rare, but every time someone not only had an ace, they hit their other card for a full house.

jaywepp on August 7, 2008

Hey all, i've been playing this joke of a site for a few years now (fake money though - originaly i had problems depositing then i saw what it was like) and was refered to sites like this 1. I have been watching these posts and laughing to myself at other peoples beat stories thinking that's EXACTLY my experience of this site. Its always the hotseat system on the tables in that some people will be able to always win and some will always lose on either the sngs or the ring games and its at the sites descression as to who it chosses (often lose players with big stacks get more than there fair share of the turn in the hot seat though). I have noticed that the designers have rigged the programming in a cunning way to so as not to make it overly suspicious though. I estimate that about 75% of a hands the average player recieves have true odd on them. However, it is the 25% of hands that are rigged like clockwork that decide if you have a winning or losing session. The most rediculous part of this site is the part of the programing that increases your opponants chances of hitting between about 5 fold because you have a big hand (top set, top 2p, the nut strait or flush, ect). Also in the specific example of a 3 handed post flop pot the hand that would conventionaly be the least likely to win is the most likely to win on this site. This kind of example illistrates the point clearly: I had 86o and folded to a raise pre flop. flop comes 723 with 2 suited cards (none of mine). it gets raises and there is a caller heads up at this point. Turn 4. river 5 with no possible flush to give me the runner runner nuts had i played. The original raiser ended up having 77 for top set and the caller had 45 for the draw. note that had i played i was the least likely to win and yet would have - a routine phenomenon on this site. Btw i have taken to playing at the cassino here and have noticed that alhough similarities exist the is a vast difference in the amount of suck outs that happen online vs live. To summarise: this site is a joke and should be treated as such.

Turbo Steve on August 7, 2008

It is just unbelievable. And every update they do it becomes even more outrageous.
Hand that is behind goes ahead 70% of the time.
There is just no denying it.

kkk777 on August 7, 2008

Hey ant8472 i didnt know you were from Sydney. I played at Star City about 2 months ago on the $1/$2 table 9 player and I went all in (about 2am - ready to sleep!) $80 with AJ suited. It was almost a family pot with 5 players in it and my jack hit on the flop and held up all the way for a nice collect. Sure one pair is not a strong hand but like someone on here alrady said we should see the weak hands hold up just as much as the monster ones do, which doesnt happen on full tilt. In my opinion that is the major difference between brick and mortar poker and online bingo poker.

simo1981 on August 6, 2008

I've continued to play once a week at Star City Casino in Sydney and I continue doing quite nicely with an ROI of about 170%. There are some bad beats at the casino, sure, but not as regularly and I also give out about the same amount of bad beats.

I played on Full Tilt this weekend and got bad beated out of 5 tournaments I played in. The majority of the time I go into a showdown with the best of it, but lose the majority of showdowns. My opponent always seem to catch their cards.

Ant8472 on August 6, 2008

I think I'm going to have to make a habit of running up to Turning Stone one every week.
I went up there yesterday and played in a $75 buy-in tourney (You also have the option to get an extra 500 chips for $15. And everyone does that seeing as you only start with 1500)
Anyway, I sit down, and I get off to a slow start. Card dead and I lost one hand where I had KJ to a guy with KQ. Not a big deal. I got hot after a bit and again, it seemed like almost everytime I had the best hand it held up.
I lost a couple of coin flips here and there, but still, that's going to happen.
I finished 4th and walked off with $835. So I went down to the $100NL tables and played for a few hours. Didn't make much but I didn't lose any either.
Today I played for another 5 or 6 hours at the $100NL table and walked away with just over $500.

The last 2 times I've been to Turning Stone, I won just over $2000. I can honestly say I have NEVER come close to winning that online, and I've played online far more than live. Granted I play lower stakes on line but still. I think the most I ever cashed out was about $220 from Party Poker years ago. And then of course I couldn't catch anything afterward.

Online poker sucks. I HATE it, and I can honestly say after my last two trips to the casino I will NEVER play online poker again. I've proven to myself (despite what online advocates say) that I am a winning player. I'd rather see the cards come from the top of the deck, look at my opponents reactions to the cards hitting the board, and being able to see the dealer.

I may lose money the next time I play in a live game, but at least I know it's honest and I'm not relying on some "Random" number generator, that's anything but random.

bad_dog76 on August 3, 2008

gonna start playing at Harrah's Horseshoe in Indiana. Will report back with comparisons to Full-Rigged-Tilt !

nitemare6 on August 3, 2008

THIS FLOP SUMS UP FULL TILT PERFECTLY.
On the Bubble in a 120 player tournament:
I have A8, button raises, gets one caller, I fold. The flop is A K 8. button goes all in, the other guy calls all in. The button has AK!!!!!. The other guy also has A8!!!! So if I had of called the all in, there would have been 3 of us with 2 pair on the flop and tell me who would have folded that???? The Ace that hit on the flop was a 1 outer. This is just a typical full tilt 'setup action hand' which occurs ALL THE TIME. Yeh, sure, this site is random.......

simo1981 on August 3, 2008

The site is juiced/rigged!!! I can't believe anyone has any doubts about it still. All the BS propaganda they dish out about how we see more hands online and BLAH BLAH BLAH --- confuses some people. But remember since we see more hands online then we should also see more of a distribution of crap hands or non-monsters; i.e. K high or 10 high or a pair of 4s or Js winning the pot, etc.! You know how many times I have had Qs busted by crap starting hands of donks who stay in the pot, and get "lucky". This site is a joke. I would not blink if I haeard a few years from now an expose on this site and others about how they had players on the tables who were in conspiracy to steal monies from other legitimate players and could either see others' cards or were able to manipulate the RNG. Not saying it is happening buy I am just saying I would not be surprised to hear it someday like we hear about other corruption and fraud in the news years after it occurs.

nitemare6 on July 31, 2008

Completely agree with you all. I consider myself to be a very good poker player, i have won several big tourneys and can bring home 2 to 3 times home what i buy in for cash at a casino....YET....
I am consistently sucked out on from this site. Nothing ever holds up like it does at the casino its amazing. Ill give a couple examples from this mornings play, 259 flop rainbow,i hold 99, i had 3x preflop with one caller, i pot size and get called on flop, turn is a J, i pot size again, DONKEY pushes all in, i have him cover but still half my stack is in the pot... He turns over K2....yea K effing 2....and the river ....2. Another donk gets rewarded for playing like a jackass. This happens to me frequently, AA vs JJ and he flops 4 of a kind.... I have 100's maybe thousands of hours logged on that site and I am 100% convinced that something is not right. I am only still playing because i made alot of $ on the 750k sunday tournaments...If and WHEN that runs out i am swearing off online...ashame too because it could be great practice when i cant make it to the casino....... Any one have any success with other online poker sites?

antisocial83 on July 31, 2008

I've been playing on FTP for about 4 - 5 months now, and up n' till the last few weeks I had been playing solid poker, trying to build a BR and so on, succeeding also. The last few weeks have been brutal, to say the least. Eg -- I hold 88, flop a set and my opponent has A10, the board is dry only with a Q on the flop. Money goes in and he hits runner runner K J (or J K cant remember) which i believe has a chance of 3% of happening? Soon after that I really do try not to tilt, but i get all my money in with a 90% chance to win, and again I lose. It accumilated to about 13 times in the last few weeks where I've been 91%+ chance to win and lost. I'm not one to judge, but surely mathematically speaking, the odds of winning just arent holding up as they should be? Correct me if I'm wrong, or if I've made a mistake. Another example (heads up) I hold Q 9 clubs, my opponent holds K10, I raise he calls, I flop an open ended, he bets I call, he hits a K (but giving me the straight). The board is now 10 J 5 K, money goes in and he spikes another K on the river for the boat. That basically was the end of me playing for money and I'll think hard about redepositing after I took out what was a very small profit in the end. I am yet to play live but I'm sorely tempted to give it a go and see how the cards fall. Good luck all, take care.

harold2k on July 31, 2008

Lol, it definitely is crazy online. A good friend of mine who logs a LOT of online hours recently told me that he would feel about as comfortable buying a few hundred lottery tickets and taking his chances there.

mike

mrkromer on July 30, 2008

Hey folks....

Brand new here so first off, I appreciate the opportunity to spew a little venom. Based on some of the posts, it comes as no surprise that I've written those bastards at FTP off for the final time. I have quit a handful of times over the years but honestly, this is it....just how many damn times can a self respecting person have his pants pulled down by those blood-sucking crooks? If I hear one of the support twits use the term "variance" again, I'm gonna lose it. Four years off and on of playing there and variance has nothing to f'ing do with it. I'm a decent card player....and I go broke there all the time.

Please let me hear some more stories, so I know it's just not me that gets money in good on most occasions only to see it sucked right up by yet another two outer or a rivered flush to crush a flopped straight. I am by no means a techy guy so I can't really tell you any theories on how the "random" card generators work but all I know is that they encourage conflict. I'm assuming it would be incredibly simple to have the card dealer generate flops that will cause clashes based on the hands already out there. And then idiots like me get mad and reload....so them saying there's no reason to rig things is BS.

I've tried everything....tight as hell, real loose (like the f'ers that beat me all the time) but none of it works. So I said f--k it. I'm done. I will NEVER give another dime to that company. I've often said I don't know how they sleep at night there. But I do know that I'll sleep better knowing I will never pump cash into that site again.

here's to more live games. Cheers....

Bragalone on July 29, 2008

I still go on there maybe once a week for a donkament freeroll or for a play money game. No reason other than boredom. I play on PokerStars almost every day and really enjoy it. I find the SNGs are all over the spectrum - sometimes you get a really fast table of bad LAGs (like mrkromer said), and other times you can get a table of tighties. Much better environment to get experience in an all-round strategy. The key difference is that you feel like your decisions somewhat impact (positively or negatively) the outcome. Strategy is a factor. The players are friendly and sportsmanlike.

I don't even know why I lurk back to FT at all - it's not fun and it's still the same thing every time. Card dead for extended periods, then get a bad beat when a hand finally does come. The last game I played I was getting nothing for about 25 hands (as usual), watching 3 overs come on the flop every time, etc. Blinds are going up and eating away at me, and finally picked up something resembling a playable hand - 7-8s - which looked like a monster to me at that point. I made a sizeable raise (4xBB), figuring I could pick up the blinds and even if I get called it's not so bad. Everyone folds, but the BB goes over the top all-in. I just throw up my hands and give up because it's not even fun at this point. I call. I know I'm behind, but 7-8s is never really in horrible shape against just about anything. Guy flips over K-Jo. I mean, seriously. So I'm only a 60:40 dog. Of course, being FT, I get there. Guy immediately starts to claim that he knew I had nothing (uh huh, I haven't seen or contested a flop for 25 hands, all of a sudden I come in with a raise, it's obvious I have nothing - right), and berate me for putting my entire stack on the line with "rags". On FT, a SNG is basically a BINGO game where the luckiest donkey wins. If you choose not to sink to their level, you will get blinded out and/or sucked out on because you have no chips.

I've also tried PokerTime and AbsolutePoker. I don't like the software quite as much, but the feel (as far as the players and the way the cards come) is about the same as PokerStars. FT seems like an exception - kind of the butthole of the online poker world.

2HighIsTheNutz on July 29, 2008

I've completely stopped playing on FT; still play on Poker Stars a little, but I don't take it very seriously. Most of the sit n gos on there are still full of recreational players looking to play 9 out of every 10 hands. I have found that the cash games in the morning tend to be pretty stable.

mike

mrkromer on July 29, 2008

Im guessing from the recent lack of posts you guys, like me have finally boycotted this joke of a site. Any suggestions from experience a good site to put my money into, a site that are happy to collect just the rake and do not resort to legalized extortion?

simo1981 on July 28, 2008

Well done bad_dog76. Its a good feeling to play correct poker and be paid off for it isn't it?
My confidence in returning to online poker after having profited at the casino was only short lived though. A couple of bad beats had me ripping at my hair and freezing up on AA or KK.
My profits at the casino continue. My ROI is up around 170%. I have not played online in over a week and it has been over 3 weeks since I played on Full Rigged Poker.

Ant8472 on July 28, 2008

Great to hear your story bad_dog!!! Your story albeit a one time anecdotal situaion in lvie poker is EXACTLY why THERE IS NO DOUBT that F-Rigged-Tilt has juiced it's RNG for purposes of rakes and who knows what other ulterior motives. I am right now looking to start a game in Chicago and also loooking for games as well as planning on spending some time a nearby Indiana casino to play. Only problem is I am not sure they have NL. It might be limit. But tha't ok. I play well enough that I believe I can take down that game as well (to paraphrase a line from Rounders- LOL). I also agree wtih your initial trepidation when you first sat down. I expect to feel that same way when I play more live games (after not playing much live in many many months) until I "withdraw" from this online poker scam dealing crap! Then if I get a bad beat or get outdrawn from time to time (which I expect) I will say "good hand, bravo" and move on to the next one!

nitemare6 on July 23, 2008

Well, I haven't posted in a while, but then again I haven't played in a long time either, but I can see nothing has changed. Online poker sites are still giving, the big F.U., to solid players and letting the fish and donks suck out on a regular basis.
I went to the closest casino this past weekend (for my birthday, which was actually yesterday Happy B-Day to me LOL)
Anyway, my "hometown" casino is Turning Stone, in Verona NY.
I get there at about 9:30AM and jump right into a $100NL table.
Now, unlike Ant8472, who mentioned his confidence was up from winning live, my confidence was a bit shaky from the constant bad beats on line.
My 3rd hand in I'm dealt JJ. I'm almost scared to play this, and I actually played it bad.
I just called a min raise, in the small blind. The BB also called so there were 3 of us in the pot. I'm waiting to see an AK10 flop with a flush draw, or something to that effect.
Nope, In real life poker, the flop comes 28J rainbow. I check. It's checked to the initial raiser who then bets the pot (which was about $11) I call, everyone else folds. Turn brings a K. I check again, he goes all in for his last $40 or so, and I immediately call. He flips over AK. So I'm feeling good at this point.
There were many hands I played to this outcome. I had AQ vs someones AJ. An ace hit the board, and my AQ held up. I had KQd one hand, flopped the nut straight, had somebody call every one of my bets, on her flush draw that she never made. My 10's held up against 8's. My KK held up vs QQ. My KK held up against AQ etc etc etc.
The ONLY bad beat I remember taking (and this really isn't a bad beat per say) was I had flopped a set of 3's on a 237 flop. I bet and got reraised by a short stack (who put in his last $15 or so) He had 99. The river brought a 9. So although I did have the best hand on the flop, the best hand, won for all intents and purposes.
By the time I left the table, at around 4:00pm (because I was starving LOL) I was up around $450.

It's simply amazing how I can play, in a live game for about 6 hours and leave with a profit of over $350 or so, but I can play online for 6 hours (at the same limit) and, even when I'm winning, still only break even, because there is ALWAYS ONE hand that brings all of your profits down. And anyone who plays online, on a regular basis, knows what I'm talking about.

I left Turning Stone Casino with $948 around 1AM in the morning, I stepped up to the table with $90.
I lost some money in blackjack, as well as, Carribean Stud (what a bullshit game that is LOL)

But anyway, I bet I won over $1,000 on the day. Granted, that's because I had a good day. That's the most I've ever won there on the poker tables. But it just proved to me, that although I don't vary my style much from online poker, to live poker, there is a HUGE difference in the outcome.

SCREW ONLINE POKER!

bad_dog76 on July 23, 2008

After 3 weeks of not playing on Full Tilt I decided to give it another go. Lately I've been playing a lot more at the casino and have stayed away from online under the allusion that the sites are rigged. I still play but a little less often and I've stayed away from Full Tilt altogether for 3 weeks.

I got back onto Full Tilt with a clearer head after some time off and having won some money at the casino which restored my confidence that I can actually play this game for a profit.
I considered this a fresh start. It did not take me long to see that the way the cards fall on Full Tilt is very different to how they fall at the casino. I could not hit any cards. I hardly got any playable cards. When I did get playable cards I caught nothing on the flop. I mean absolutely nothing. Over a period of 2 hours and 3 tournaments I could not catch anything on the flop. I was playing dead. I couldn’t win a hand. There is no way in the world that someone can tell you it is the way you play that creates the poor results when you get no playable cards and catch nothing on the flop. The best player in the world can't do much with that. You can only bluff so much and on an aggressively and fishy online site in $10 tournaments, bluffing is seldomly the right move.
The difference between the luck I was having online and the luck I have at the casino is immensely different. It seems more obvious to me now how rigged Full Tilt is.
People who advocate that online sites are not rigged will often argue that it can seem like someone gets a lot of bad beats online because the hands go faster and it will seem like they are getting more bad beats. Well I argue the exact opposite. Should one also catch a lot more cards and win alot more pots online than live, particularly if they play more than one table at a time? There are more cards being dealt online and I am catching very few cards yet at the casino I hit hands quite regularly. At least one in every 2 or 3 hands, I am hitting something worth playing onto the turn and river at the casino. Maybe I am hitting top pair or middle pair with a draw, maybe I am hitting it hard with a set or trips or a draw. On Full Tilt I couldn’t hit a thing today, not even middle pair. The flop antagonized me every hand I played.
I had literally 3 very good hands all afternoon and they all got me knocked out.
I was knocked out with AA, KK and AK in 3 different tournaments. I had my aces cracked by someone who called my raise when they had J9 suited. They got their flush. I had KK in another tournament. As soon as I saw KK I said in the message window ‘this is the hand that gets me knocked out’. Short stacked I went all in with my KK. Someone called me with AQ and they got their A on the river. Again, short stacked in another tournament I called an all in with AK. My opponent had TT and his tens held up. My aces and kings couldn’t hold up but his tens held up.
I know that hand for hand my results don’t sound spectacularly unlucky but when you look at the whole picture it reeks of negative programming designed to make you lose. I've never been that unlucky over a sustained period of time anywhere live or on any other online site.
Before I had live experience I wasn’t sure what to think of all the bad beats and dead flops, but with the exposure to the casinos and live games it is clearly evident that I am getting incredibly bad luck online. It is not mathematically feasible that my luck can be that bad.
For the record my ROI is 150% at the casinos and about -40% on Full Tilt.
No wonder I am always on tilt on Full Tilt.

Ant8472 on July 20, 2008

Played last evening in a tournie and the guy I played heads=up with at the final table of the tournament I won was there and we were conversing. SO I am gettign othign and keep folding. No chance for even a semi bluff. Just the same cards liek a 2 or 3 or 4 over and over in different combinations with J or 8 or 9 or 10. Ever have that happen?! So I finally get As and luckily I am in the BB. We get a few limps and one guy rasies it up to 600 so there is a nice pot (approx 1500). I re-raise to 2400 since I need to get chips and don't mind if guys fold since I am not going to slow play. The guy who raised says "damn do you have As?" He then raises me 700 and I am all in. He shows Ks. Guess what the full rigged tilt flop delivers where I am a 81% favorite. Sure enough he gets a K. TWO outer hits again. The guy from the other tournie says "that is such BS"! Yep bro, its a total joke how this site deals cards. Like many have said its NOT that these things don't happen in holdem poker. The math and probability says ANYTHING "COULD" happen. It just happens way to often for anyone to believe this is truly random dealing as with a deck of 52! I don't know how programmers skew these hands or how they set it up to deliver this bs dealing like the above. But I have trouble believing (DUE TO THE TIMING OF THESE BEATS) that this is rondom. In this case I was short stacked and it behooves FRT to get out the short stacks. It behooves them to set up hands like the above more to increase rakes on cash game tables. It behooves an online site to cheat players. Heck why do athletes keep taking drugs when they know they might get caught and lose thier livelihoods, reputations and more???! Why the heck do people ever cheat. Well they do and its usually money. That is why I think FRT is playing games with us and its not a real "poker game"!

nitemare6 on July 18, 2008

OK. So I sit down a few minutes ago to fool around on a 10/25 cent (6) table. FIRST hand: I get J10 and raise 3x BB. One call. Flop 79J all hearts. I bet 75% of pot. Call. Turn is 8h. FOUR running hearts. Now this is the third time today in the few hands I played in between doing other things that I have seen FOUR FKING RUNNERs. And mind you this in in a very small space of time. Anyone else notice how many times we see FOUR runners to give some guy a hand and allow him to beat out 2p or TP etc.??! Its a farce. I guarantee if anyone did an analysis of this site they would find 4 running flushes and straights hit WAY more than real probablities would dictate. Just my opinion. Anyway sure enough the guy has Ah2c and wins the pot. I leave the table since its just no fun playing with this kind of dealing; it's not the amount of money its what others have said many times. I just know I play far too good to constantly lose hands I should win. The only possible thing one could say about the above hand is that I did not push all in in hopes that he would fold his flush draw. But in my view I might have merely built a pot for some donk to cash in on. "Full Rigged Tilt: the most flawed non-random dealing on the Net to bring out the donk in each of you!"

nitemare6 on July 18, 2008

LOL- true ( i told my math professor buddy that after I posted it) - TY

nitemare6 on July 17, 2008

That's far from a 1 outer. You could have hit the q, an 8, ace or king, so you had 10 outs.

mike

mrkromer on July 17, 2008

So i go back to the cash games (.10/.25 table) and miracuously double my bankroll at two tables and end up winning another approx $45 in 25 mintues on top of the $138. Now I had just written email about 30 minutes earlier to ask them if Qs EVER hold up on FRT. Guess what? I get Qs and find myself in a hand with a guy with J10. Flop comes AQKc. He flops a str8 and I flop a set. So we end up all in! Turn is 8d. Anyone have a guess what the river card was!??? Anyone? Yep it was a ONE outer! I got the last QUEEN and the poor guy leaves the table with me saying "sorry bro that is sick"! Do you think my letter had anything to do with this? And who did shoot John Kennedy!? :-) By the way, I meant to say that I won a 555 plyr "tournament" and not a "sng".

nitemare6 on July 17, 2008

So I guess what he is saying is that when my straight or set gets drowned on the river by an improbable runner runner boat or 4 runner flush, it isnt a bullshit rigged bad beat, i was on tilt and playing recklessly and shouldnt have been in the hand to begin with??? lol.

simo1981 on July 16, 2008

HERE IS THEIR REPLY**********Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.

In the past players have claimed that there must be a 'cashout curse' mechanism, a system that punishes players for withdrawing funds. Besides being nearly impossible to do, we would be foolish to jeopardize our entire reputation and business in an effort to make extra money off a few players.

The so-called curse is more likely a trick of perception. Consider that a smaller bankroll will cause more panic if you lose a fixed amount of money than a larger bankroll. For example, if you have $400 in your account and lose $100, you would have lost 25% of your bankroll. While this may be somewhat troubling, it will not induce panic. If you had withdrawn $200, the same $100 loss would represent half your bankroll and will cause panic. This will lead some players to go on tilt, play progressively worse and lose more money and eventually go broke.

Unfortunately, with a smaller bankroll, your probability of ruination is much higher. If you continued to play at stakes that you may have been winning at prior to your large cashout, your bankroll may not have been sufficient to handle the swings of the game.

In other words, the cashout curse is real. But it isn't because Full Tilt threw a switch, it is just everyday statistics at play.

For a more detailed, statistical examination of the so-called 'cashout curse', this is a very thorough article:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...f054bc065303a8

With regards to the authenticity of our RNG, our players provide us with constant empirical testing and verification of our RNG. Unlike live games, all online hands are recorded in the form of a hand history. With many players using tracking programs such as PokerTracker, hands are scrutinized by the poker playing community, and any deviation outside of expected variance will be found very quickly with hundreds of thousands of hands being played everyday. There are players that have hundreds of thousands of personal hand histories saved in databases, and a dysfunctional RNG would be easy to spot.

If there's anything else we can help you with, please feel free to ask. Best of luck at the tables!

Regards,

Amaan
Poker Specialist
Full Tilt Poker Support

simo1981 on July 16, 2008

After i got a reply to the rng email i replied accusing them of having a cash out curse (after yet another shocking run of bad beats). i will post their reply soon

simo1981 on July 16, 2008

Remember I just asked them how to cash out about 5 days ago.

nitemare6 on July 16, 2008

So I sit down at a 10/25 (6) table and fold the first hand (36os) THE VERY NEXT HAND I get dealt Qs. This is 6-handed. So I limp in and get a raise to 1.50 and re-raise to 4.75, and of course the loser goes all in. I have him covered and call the raise only because I know donks go all in withput Ks or As. So what does he have? AKos??!! Now tell me......... did full rigged deal an A on the flop or did Qs hold up?! This was the 2nd hand I played on full rigged in 3 months. You can't win in their rigged cash games.

nitemare6 on July 16, 2008

Finished first in a 555 player SNG. Must say I won not because hands held up on full-rigged but by great playing and strategic check-raising, bluffing, limping and laying down hands most would call or push with. I only saw about 22% of hands, and those that I went to the T with I won 75% at least. Also won hands with top pair Ilike 6s or 8s flopped) which has nto happened on FRT in a long time!! Ironically I had just wrote them asking how I could cash out (since epassporte wasn't an option any longer and that's how I deposited).

nitemare6 on July 16, 2008

It is their typical response. They keep giving me their template responses such as this. A couple of times I started to get good luck for a short time after I complained.

Ant8472 on July 16, 2008

As promiosed here is ftp's reply. How ironic that just before i checked my email this happened: HU game i flop two pair, 2 and 3. However there are 3 clubs on the board. being short stacked only 480 chips, i go all in. Player calls with a Kc4d, on a flush draw. I dont want to see another club! And i didnt, turn 4, river K. it really doesnt matter what ftp say in this reply, ITS FULL OF SHIT, but a promise is a promise, so here it is:**********
Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.

Our shuffling and dealing processes utilize a powerful random number generator (RNG) that incorporates several features to ensure randomness and a fair game for all players.

Our RNG uses three separate sources which apply algorithms to generate 32-bit random numbers. The three random numbers are then XORed together to generate a new random number. XORing a random number against any other number produces a new number equally random to the preceding numbers. So even if two out of the three sources failed to generate sufficiently random numbers, the final XORed number will still be random provided at least one of the three given numbers is random.

This holds true as long as the two numbers are uncorrelated, so it's critical that all the different values come from independent sources. If the numbers were correlated, the randomness could be cancelled by the XOR operation.

To ensure true randomness, our RNG uses several redundant and independent sources including two different pseudo-RNGs and a physical source:

1) The ISAAC pseudo-RNG.
2) The OpenSSL pseudo-RNG.
3) A hardware RNG that has a physical source of entropy.

We are evaluating several well-known auditing firms and hope to have our shuffling and dealing processes officially audited in the near future.

Our business depends on providing our players with a fair and unbiased game, and we do exactly that. We hope we?ve answered your concerns, but if we can be of further assistance, please let us know.

Sincerely,
**********************

simo1981 on July 13, 2008

i have written them 7-8 times to the point where they have said they would not reply to anymore email. They will reply and give you some sympathy; then assure you that everything is fine and that s-t happens blah blah!

nitemare6 on July 12, 2008

After copping the most ridiculous bad beat on the river (on the bubble) in a token tier 1 i decided to send a little email to full tilt. As of now i have not receioved a reply but i will post it here as soon as I do (that is if i do).
"Ever since i last cashed out i have suffered an absolute BULLSHIT amount of bad beats on the river by other players hitting ABSOLUTE FUCKING BULLSHIT draw cards. Please tell me something. I would like the name of the company who has independently tested your site's random number generator. I play on 2 of your competitors sites and they have the information readily and publicly available. Please tell me, has full tilt poker had theirs independently tested (yes or no) and if yes, by whom and when, and where can i access the results."

simo1981 on July 11, 2008

yes - he called -- even after I told him what I had and he knew I was best into the river.

nitemare6 on July 11, 2008

OK. so I played in a $1 45/SNG. Of course I get dealt a three 8 out of the first 15 hands - literally. No joke. Anyway I am down to 1000 chips after 30 hands of being card dead and I get A6. I called a 3x BB raise and >>>tell the guy in chat that I have A6 suited - LOL! So the turn comes and he checks. Ok? So I go all in. Guess what? I got him beat like I thought. He has Qx and I got A6. Anyone have a guess what the river was (you only get ONE guess?) Of course I am sure it had nothing to do with me being short stacked. Oh no! On Full Rigged Tilt joker poker??? Come on!!!!

nitemare6 on July 11, 2008

This one seemed a bit odd, I sat at a .50/1 6 handed cash game where max buy in is $100. One person at the table has over $500, so I'm leary. 3rd hand I get AA, all in against a different guy with KK, aces held up so I win $105 right off the bat. 2 hands later, I have AA again, 2 raises in front of me, I reraise from $4 to $17, the huge stack calls. Flop is garbage with 2 spades, I bet out $40, call. Turn spade, I bet $80, call. River, J diamonds, I'm all in, guy calls, had q10 spades for turned flush.

3 other hands he won while I was still sitting, his 34 turned quads against a flush, his 99 against jj rivered a straight, and his A3 against KK hit trip 3s on flop.

He had over $750 when I stood. It was ridiculous.

mike

mrkromer on July 11, 2008

is just clearly rigged so bad players win.
Played a bunch of $10, 90 player sngs

on every all in - w 3 or more players - 10 9 os, Q 8, whatever awful hand
it always

kkk777 on July 11, 2008

so I play in a freeroll again tonight after not playing on the rigged site for a few days. Holding my own even though I get no cards while all kinds of donks are winning hands that they ought not to even be in or not win at all. Of course I finally get AKs and have a guy raise 4X bb - I re-raise 600 and the donk comes with an all-in bet of 14000 chips to my 4100. He was playing like a donk earlier so I dont put him on AA. Well he has AJos vs. my AKs. Now this guy is a sure rank newbie since he overvalued AJ which is a comon play of newbies, particularly after I re-rasied. In fact some players might have layed it down rather than go heads-up agasint the re-raiser in a heads-up pot. Nope! Not this typical F-rigged-tilt donk. So what is the flop? Well of coures it ain't a K or an A. Nope. It's xxJ and then two small cards. So I lose to a donk that was dominated and should not even have bet all-in to begin with!! Total scam poker site. But at least it didn't cost be anything.

nitemare6 on July 10, 2008

Full Tilt is ridiculous. I can't win a sit'n'go anymore. I've been knocked out on the bubble 4 times in a row in S't'n'go's and haven't made the money in about 10. I used to make the money, on average, twice every 5 times, 40%. When I was a complete beginner I was doing better than I am now.
I've had it with Full Tilt. I've got $5 left in my account. After I piss it up against another rigged game I will give FT a rest for about a month or two. It sounds like hogwash but some people I've spoken to swear that if you stay off for about a month your luck is restored.

Ant8472 on July 8, 2008

Its true, AA, KK QQ etc is all in pre flop so the bloke holding 3 7 has to bet his whole stack to catch 4 5 and on the river 6. Often they will call it anyway so what can you do.

simo1981 on July 6, 2008

I would have expected my luck to turn around a bit after a month solid of bad beats but my awful luck continues. The only reason I persevere with FT is because living in Australia, the only site that has a good large tournament around the $10 mark is FT. It is difficult to ignore the Daily Doubles and the Midnight Madness.
Today my sour luck continued. It gets so frustrating I want to pull my hair out. Opponents seem to always catch cards. Not sometimes, but always. If I get AK someone has KK or AA. Playing well and reading hands makes no difference. *And you can't slow play for the life of you*.
Slow playing a great hand is a profitable move, especially if you can fold a hand that is beaten. On FT you cannot slow play. Your opponent will always catch. For instance, I had two pair on a flop with no straight or flush draws. I slow played it. My opponent had A9 after the flop. He basically had nothing. He got runner runner nines. When I saw 99 on the board I knew he had a 9 in his hand. He put in a third pot bet and with two pair, one is correct to play. On FT you always have to be suspicious. You can't trust anything that happens on that site.
I have been losing constantly for a month on this site, yet I played in one solitary tournament on Bodog with 196 people and came 4th. The difference is stark. People will fold on other sites. They don't always catch their cards.
The way I see it, you have to adjust your game entirely on FT. Playing correct or skilled poker based on probabilities is not an option if you want to make a profit on FT. The only way is to be patient and make sure you have your opponent beat before you call their all in. I have learnt that I can't take their big overbet as a bluff or a bad play. Usually, on FT it means they have a made monster hand. I often find myself calling these kinds of bets because it doesn't make intuitive probabilistic sense that they keep catching their cards, but sure enough, they did catch that lucky card and knock you out.
I have sent them emails and I am unable to discover any ombudsman, or independent regulatory body that I can turn to to lodge a complaint or an enquiry. One is entirely at the mercy of the site and we play entirely at our own peril.
I never seem to get a personalised response when I complain about the incessant bad luck I get. Just broad sweeping template letters about how it is not rigged and to think you are getting a bad deal on the cards is a perceptual thing. Bullshit I say. I can see the difference.
I've started playing at the casino in the last few months and the difference in the distribution of luck is clear to me. Bad beats happen but not as often, even when taking into account the greater frequency of cards. Furthermore, statistically, a player will improve their hand on average one time in three on the flop. On FT it seems to be more like 95% of the time that a player improves on his hand.

Ant8472 on July 5, 2008

Hey I assume all you full tilt players get the regular emails "Tips from the Pros". Well the latest one is from Full tilt pro Jordan 'iMsoLucky0' Morgan, regarding moving from online play to live play. Well after i sharkscoped him, id LOVE to play him live!!!! LMFAO.

simo1981 on July 5, 2008

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!

That was awesome Simo!

Love the song too!

bad_dog76 on July 3, 2008

Found this whilst browsing a forum. its probably rigged but the chat is priceless: http://www.wtfpokerstars.ytmnd.com/

simo1981 on July 3, 2008

<>

LOL! Thanks for the tip

bad_dog76 on July 3, 2008

I've probably seen quads in a game 4 times in the last 3 years, that's live.

Online, I've probably seen them 25 times or so in that same period. And flushes online? Wow, they are so regular I'm scared to death of a suited board.

P.S., play AJ everytime in blackjack. lol

mike

mrkromer on July 3, 2008

Hey mike, glad to see we agree on something lol!

But yeah, AJ is a good hand to raise with (especially in late position) but if someone comes over the top of you, you have to realize that AJ is beaten by so many hands, and (much like my AQ up above) there are much better places to put all your chips in the pot.

I just found it funny that they guy would get quad aces though LOL! I mean how many times can possibly run into quads.
And hell, at least 66 vs AJ is a coin flip. QQ vs AJ, QQ is 73% to win.

bad_dog76 on July 3, 2008

well this is really odd and i have no idea what it means. It has happened 9 times in a row so it has to mean something, but i have no idea what.
When i sit down at a table the hand that is dealt before I get dealt in has had 4 of a suit on the board.
That cannot just be circumstance - but ???

kkk777 on July 3, 2008

The home game I play in on Mondays had a hand like that qq vs. AJ, except it was 66 vs. AJ. The girl with AJ raises from 30 to 180, the guy with 66 puts her all in; he's pretty familiar with her play style, she sits for a good 5 solid minutes and then calls, doesn't hit anything, and walks out in disgust. The funny thing was she had to come back because she still had about 200 chips left. But I'm with you on AJ, it's a crap hand in most situations and so many people just can't get off of it pre-flop. Come to think of it, when I first started playing I don't know that I folded it much either... lol

mike

mrkromer on July 3, 2008

Does anyone have problems winning at play chips after playing cash for a while?
I was up to 23 million play chips and after I play real money for a while and return to play chips - I cannot win a hand.
Can go 70 hands without best hand.
I am now down to a million and just flabbergasted because the play is so awful normally

kkk777 on July 3, 2008

I cashed out my remaining $176 from WPX tonight (I'll get $9 rake back monday to blow). But I played in a tournament tonight. Yeah, it was a $1 tournament but WPX added $1000 to the prize pool so the winner walked off with around $625. It paid the top 27. I played extremely well, building my chip stack early, and often until I hit an incredible cold streak, in which I didn't see a pocket pair, or two face cards, in a matter of 33 hands.

There's 40 of us left, I have around 7,800 in chips and I'm 20th at this time. Finally, I'm dealt QQ and here's what happens;

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139239573
$1 + $1 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 22:30:35 02/07/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1325801', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 4 is the button. Small Blind $200, Big Blind $400
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (playing) : redevile, amount $6109, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing) : Rabid_Baticus, amount $7832, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing) : bluduster, amount $3689, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing) : eagleman_7, amount $7384, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (playing) : hifi, amount $1584, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 6 (playing) : ramashiva, amount $4914, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing) : UmassRounder, amount $4829, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 9 (playing) : redruuuum, amount $7518, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 10 (playing) : gj, amount $15561, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
hifi: Small Blind ($200)
ramashiva: Big Blind ($400)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to Rabid_Baticus: [Qc, Qh]
UmassRounder: Fold
redruuuum: Raise ($1200)
gj: Fold
redevile: Fold
Rabid_Baticus: Raise ($4000)
bluduster: Fold
eagleman_7: Fold
hifi: Fold
ramashiva: Fold
redruuuum: Raise ($7493)
Rabid_Baticus: Call ($3493)
Rabid_Baticus: Show Cards ($0)
redruuuum: Show Cards ($0)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [Kd, Ac, Ad]
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [Th]
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [Ah]
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
redruuuum: Show Cards ($0)
Rabid_Baticus: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $15811, Rake $0
Summary Rabid_Baticus: bet $7493, won $0, net $-7493, HoleCards [Qc, Qh]
Summary redruuuum: bet $8693, won $15811, net $7118, HoleCards [Js, As], HiHand [four of a kind, aces] [As, Ah, Ad, Ac, Kd], won $15811 from main pot

LMAO! Not only does this guy hit a fucking 3 outer to beat me, he gets all 3 LMAO!!!!!!!!!! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!

I let this donk know he made an awful play. Any, average, poker player would know that when someone, re-raises you by over 3 times your raise, (and I played tight) that AJ is a throw away hand. But, I mean why not. This DONK puts all his chips at risk with AJ LMAO!
I told him "Awful call!" and he proceeded to ask someone at the table "was it?" to which someone, simply responded, "YES!".

I'll continue to play freerolls there, but I'll make sure I play like a complete idiot, since it's obvious online poker caters to that sort of play. Don't be surprised if I'm back showing you how I called an all in with K4(s) and busted KK LOL! I'm done throwing away money. That type of shit just makes poker really unenjoyable, and it's ruining the game for me. I'm done!

bad_dog76 on July 2, 2008

So I play one more 360 freeroll on F-R-T. I'm in 10th position out of 26. Dealt Qs- BB = 3000. I call PF and get two other calls. Ok maybe I should have rasied or pushed. Flop comes 228. Two players bet and I push all in for 23K which gets all players to fold except short stack calling with 83 and 7000 chips. Guess what card comes on the turn to crack my Qs. Another f-cking (2) TWO outer is dealt to give the 83 player - trips. Good news it was a freeroll; bad news it's no fun to play better than most donks in a tournament like this and have more experience yet get taken down by the full rigged tilt TWO outer. It's a total joke!

nitemare6 on July 2, 2008

so I plyed in my nightly freeroll and I see 8 hands all night and then make a few good plays AND actually have 63 hold up (pair of 3s and gut shot) when I bet all-in and get a donk call with3s and loser kicker!! So I make it to 25/360 and get AQ and rasie 4x bb with 3 callers - flop KAx. I bet 1/2 pot and get a call from one player. Now I figure the guy for Ks. Turn is X. Ok!! I figure I will win this hand so I bet about 500 and get just a call. Now I know he has a K. SOOOoooooo now its the famous F-rigged-T RIVER card. Anyone guess what it was?!! Of course I am sure it made no difference that I had less chips than average and he was a large stack. Total scam poker. Not because he sucked out a K but because this crap happens over and over. I put hte guy on the exact hand he has, I know I can't get him out so I value bet to raise the pot in case an A or Q hits and by the turn I am a HUGE favorite going into river (88/12)!!!This is the kind of TOTAL BS that makes playing on F-Rigged-T impossible for me. I can beat other players and I can bluff otu other players but I can't beat a rigged system where no matter what you do you lose to two-outers over nad over again...... like in the above example.

nitemare6 on July 2, 2008

all online poker sites have built in to the programming to deal out huge action hands to promote quicker table turnover. its just that simple. whoever says they dont need to rig it they make enough have no clue how greedy these people are, they spends hundreds of thousands a dollar a day on sex drugs and rock and roll baby.

online_suckas! on July 2, 2008

Mr Kromer
My point was not that I lost w A 10 vs A J - point is that the odds are skewed.
The amount of times that 2 players hold an ace and one comes on the flop is just completely exaggerated. (Are there 2 gs in exaggerated - don't want anyone to get angry because of my speeeling.)

I am exactly even in real money after a year and a half on the site.
The really awful thing is that I have won the most money by making the worst plays.

kkk777 on July 2, 2008

I lost $800 in one hand playing Gavin Smith 5/10 (who at the time was using another name and avatar). This was not an all-in hand b.t.w. This was before I knew that 2p did not hold up on Full Rigged !

nitemare6 on July 2, 2008

Lol, you guys are too much. Okay, here's my stats for online only:

Sit no gos: down about $800
MTTs: up about $2100, mostly from one big tournament 2nd place finish
Cash games: up about $240, just started playing these over the last few months.

Biggest win: $2245 in a 2254 person $10 tournament, 2nd place
Biggest loss: $185 in one hand at 1/2 nl cash game on FT.

mrkromer on July 2, 2008

yes we all know that and there is no site that records cash game stats, right? so we will just have to believe you when u state next that u made $1.2 mill off gus hansen in your lunch break then a further $3.5mill of erik lindgren while u were taking a dump.

simo1981 on July 2, 2008

Fair enough, but you do realize that sharkscope only records sit n go information, right?

mike

mrkromer on July 2, 2008

LOL @ Mr.Kromer, who states he is a constant winner on FTP, and the stats show otherwise. He gets defensive and starts calling names LMAO!

Kromer, we'll just agree, to disagree on the whole thought of online poker being "random"

bad_dog76 on July 2, 2008

why are you getting so defensive mrkromer!??? I wasn't trying to embarass you; but when someone is defending a poker site like full rigged tilt it is more credible when they have played for big bucks AND/or can demonstrate that they play winning poker on a rigged non-random site OVER A LONGER TIME FRAME (as we all agree that in the short run anyone can suckout some dollars ON FRT ....!)

nitemare6 on July 2, 2008

Yeah, the Huck Seed thing was a joke of course you idiot.

And sharkscope only tracks sit n gos you dumbass. God you all are stupid.

mike

mrkromer on July 2, 2008

LMMFAO! WoW! Mr. Kromer certainly is a "winning" player LOL!

bad_dog76 on July 2, 2008

Lmfao!!!!!!!

simo1981 on July 2, 2008

i checked out mrkromer on sharkscope

>>>>>http://www.sharkscope.com/index.html

I have a +52% ROI and he has a -62% ROI and his average stake is $13!

nitemare6 on July 2, 2008

I found this post from April 2008 posted by mrkromer on a fuurm about Huck Seed>>>>>>>>>>>>>mrkromer
April 23, 2008
I played him heads up in AC at the Taj, $5/$10 nl and took 7 million off of him in 20 minutes. It was crazy... Mike

nitemare6 on July 2, 2008

I can't beleive anyone still has doubts that FTP is rigged or skewed and does NOT have a random card dealing system!!!!!!

nitemare6 on July 2, 2008

I can't beleive anyone still has doubts that FTP is rigged or skewed and does not NOT a random card dealing system !

nitemare6 on July 2, 2008

Sorry, but how can you call it ignorance when I'm just stating facts in my posts? Trust me, I've logged enough hours online to know that there are certain ways to play to win money. How come I win in cash games? Am I a chosen person by the site who always gets lucky? Not at all. The majority of my winnings come from being ahead start to finish, some come from sucking out. Wake up, I'm a real person and I win online, there's a lot of us. And there's a lot of you who are still learning. It's not a bad thing, but you shouldn't assume ignorance of others who probably have more experience.

mike

mrkromer on July 2, 2008

Kromer, if you can't see what's going on, you're obviously bilnd.

I also notice you don't recant any of my other statements. I'll just chalk that up to your ignorance.

bad_dog76 on July 2, 2008

After taking my final bad beat yesterday (which I posted above), I decided to call WPX (and one thing I'll give these people is they will answer every email, quickly, and they will never ignore you, like UB and AP did). Anyway, I wanted to find out a little more about the "Random" number generator.

I only know so much about it, I know it can pull a card from anywhere in the deck at anytime, and I know that each card is assigned a value. While he said he didn't know much about probability and statistics, he assured all cards are "random". After we went back and forth for a while, I simply asked him this. Why is it I'm so much more successful in live games, than I am online.
I told him about things I've accomplished, in live games and that I have such a hard time getting ahead on WPX. Told him I get to a certain point and I can't get any further.
He says to me, well online poker is a bit different than live poker. Well DUH! LOL! But this was the funny thing he said to me, and this is the honest to God's truth.

He told me that if there were a few dozen guys like me, who take advantage of weaker players, that the weaker players would get wiped out, so perhaps the "RNG" is a way of evening out. LMAO! Are you kidding me!!!!!!!?

I told him, that, that's not right. Weaker players SHOULD be getting wiped out. They SHOULD lose when they call an all-in bet with Q9 against KK. There should be no "evening out".

I mean seriously, if the guy that works for WPX is telling me that the "RNG" is a way to even things out, between weak players and strong players, than there really is no point in playing. I mean, that's like asking a guy like Roger Clemens (in his prime) to only throw 75MPH fastballs to a .220 because the hitter is completely overmatched.

He kind of recanted his statement after I brought this up. He said, "Well, I'm not sure, but....." Yeah exactly.

One thing I will say, the guy was friendly, he must've stayed on the phone with me for a 1/2 an hour. Neither one of us raised our voice or anything, just two people discussing this, not so random, 'RNG'.

I mean seriously, the guy tells me maybe, the 'RNG' is a way of making things more even between the fish, and the sharks LOL!
Can you believe that? I can believe it, I just can't believe he told me that.

bad_dog76 on July 2, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_dog76 View Post
Here's another one, granted this is a freeroll tournament but here's ANOTHER FUCKING EXAMPLE OF HOW AN INCREDIBLY HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE FAVORITE LOSES ON THE RIVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139158814
$0 + $0 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 14:02:00 01/07/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1324859', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 8 is the button. Small Blind $10, Big Blind $20
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (playing) : itsascam, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing) : paulwilson_68, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing) : HeartsJack, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing) : lucassoulet, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (playing) : v_arnold, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 6 (playing) : RigWPXmyway, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 7 (playing) : seminol, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing) : shazzer_ok, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 9 (playing) : iualex, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
iualex: Small Blind ($10)
itsascam: Big Blind ($20)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to RigWPXmyway: [8d, 6d]
paulwilson_68: Fold
HeartsJack: Fold
lucassoulet: Call ($20)
v_arnold: Fold
RigWPXmyway: Call ($20)
seminol: Fold
shazzer_ok: Fold
iualex: Call ($10)
itsascam: Check ($0)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [7h, Tc, 4h]
iualex: Bet ($20)
itsascam: Fold
lucassoulet: Call ($20)
RigWPXmyway: Call ($20)
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [9c]
iualex: Bet ($20)
lucassoulet: Call ($20)
RigWPXmyway: Raise ($300)
iualex: Fold
lucassoulet: Call ($280)
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [2c]
lucassoulet: Check ($0)
RigWPXmyway: Bet ($500)
lucassoulet: Raise ($1160)
RigWPXmyway: Call ($660)
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
lucassoulet: Show Cards ($0)
RigWPXmyway: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $3080, Rake $0
Summary lucassoulet: bet $1500, won $3080, net $1580, HoleCards [Kc, 7c], HiHand [a flush, king high] [Kc, Tc, 9c, 7c, 2c], won $3080 from main pot
Summary RigWPXmyway: bet $1500, won $0, net $-1500

Of course the asshole would hit the flush, At least that time I was only 81% to win instead of 93%

Have you ever seen anyone so "unlucky" in your life?
By the way, that was the 1st hand in the next tournament after my bad beat in the last one
Another one, K7 held up against 68, wow. Amazing how you all say it's rigged and the worst hand wins but every example you give shows the best hand holding up. Are you all on drugs?!?!

mike

mrkromer on July 2, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
KKK777 "Moved to ring game - play ace 10 - flop is A J 10 you know the other guy has A J which needless to say he did. What are the odds of 2 people holding an ace and one hitting the flop - 12%? On FTP - Is 99%">>>>>>>>> this is exactly the kind of pre-programmed rigged hand that I am referring to that occurs over and over again on full rigged tilt bingo. You said it right! What are the odds of ONE player hitting 2p on the flop much less two players hitting?????!!! F-rigged-T sets it up so that any card on the flop ALMOST ALWAYS helps someone who is in the hand. Rarely do you see a flop (like with a real 52 card deck) that doesn't set up 2 or more players for a showdown that thereby increase the rakes!
The more I read the more I laugh. So AJ held up against A10? Wow, that's crazy.

mike

mrkromer on July 2, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant8472 View Post
I decided to give the cash tables a go on Full Tilt thinking that maybe the dynamics behind the (RNG) might be different.
In fact, it seemed worse! I played for about half an hour in a $1-$2 limit game. I started off with phenomenal hands. I got AA fllowed by KK and then my pair of twos in the hole turned into quads and I hit a set of fours. Unfortunately, I didn't get paid off much so I doubled up. Right after I doubled up I got bad beat after bad beat. Things like hitting top pair with AK but beaten by a set of 4s on a flop of A42. It happened three hands in a row and I lost the lot. At the same time I've played cash limit and no limit on other sites and haven't observed the same level of irregularity.
If FT has taught me anything, it is to fold a great deal of hands, even top pair when someone is betting strongly.
AA and KK aren't very strong hands in limit, which is a drawing game.

mike

mrkromer on July 2, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_dog76 View Post
You think stakes matter? LOL! Watch a couple of vidoes by Tuff_Fish. A guy that played at 10-20NL tables on Party Poker. Watch him check raise people $300-$400 only to see them suck out on the river.

The stakes shouldn't matter. The odds and probabilty of EVERY hand include going to the river.

$1 or $1000 AA should hold up against AK 87% of the time. KK should beat JJ 80% of the time and so on, and so forth.

I've played higher levels, same bullshit happens up there, I've watched higher levels than I can afford to play (like 600NL) and see the SAME THING!

All higher stakes mean is that people can afford to play at those levels, doesn't have anything to do with their poker skill.
You're way off on your assumptions. First, if you watch players at higher stakes play (5/10, 10/20, whatever) dozens of hands go by with no flop because of preflop raising! So you're way off there.

Second, one person showing some examples of getting sucked out on at higher levels tells nothing! Sure, you have bad players at all levels, I agree with you there, but I promise you if you quit playing micro stakes and develop a strong game plan, which I don't think you have, success will follow, OVER TIME, not the first night or two.

Third, the odds and probability of every hand change after the flop, after the turn, and after the river, so your first statement doesn't make much sense. Yeah AA has AK dominated preflop, but that can change drastically after community cards hit.

mike

mrkromer on July 2, 2008

LOL fulltillbroke. I shouldn't laugh at you man, but... precious memories. Unreal beats when the pot is big. Donks always hit the gas pedal if they hit the ace. Crap kicker doesn't matter (and why should it, they always hit that one too after the money goes in - LOL).

P.S. Sure you already know this, but for others who may not - watch out playing too tight pre-flop though, there's always a sneaky shark or two that will call with any two and then put you all-in if they hit two-pair or better on the flop knowing they can take your stack. Of course, then you have the opportunity to hit the miracle suck out - I should have tried that come to think of it.

2HighIsTheNutz on July 2, 2008

Fuck this i'm done with them. I've played tight like never before, always sure to have best hand ON RIVER, never went all-in, played like absolute beginner, never had luck once with str or flush draws when others would let me see turn or river. And after few hours of playing having average number of chips, just maybe 15-20 more hands before pay tables i get pocket queens and chip leader beats me with fucking jacks. Night before i finished even earlier with AK against A4 and funny thing is we were'nt all-in before flop showed bloody AA - something. He went all-in, i called and he gets 4 on turn, i mean fuck them all. Won just few hands with weaker cards, and every time small bets, but when i was 4/1 and 10/1 i've lost all. So, you can't play your game because donks will call everything and will beat you half of the time, you can't play tight because sooner or later you will try to double will monster hands but they don't hold either... wtf can you do. Here, where i live there's small tournaments only once a week. I'm not bad at all there but i wan't to play 3-4 times a week and i thought online pokers would be great, never again.

fulltillbroke on July 2, 2008

I decided to give the cash tables a go on Full Tilt thinking that maybe the dynamics behind the (RNG) might be different.
In fact, it seemed worse! I played for about half an hour in a $1-$2 limit game. I started off with phenomenal hands. I got AA fllowed by KK and then my pair of twos in the hole turned into quads and I hit a set of fours. Unfortunately, I didn't get paid off much so I doubled up. Right after I doubled up I got bad beat after bad beat. Things like hitting top pair with AK but beaten by a set of 4s on a flop of A42. It happened three hands in a row and I lost the lot. At the same time I've played cash limit and no limit on other sites and haven't observed the same level of irregularity.
If FT has taught me anything, it is to fold a great deal of hands, even top pair when someone is betting strongly.

Ant8472 on July 1, 2008

KKK777 "Moved to ring game - play ace 10 - flop is A J 10 you know the other guy has A J which needless to say he did. What are the odds of 2 people holding an ace and one hitting the flop - 12%? On FTP - Is 99%">>>>>>>>> this is exactly the kind of pre-programmed rigged hand that I am referring to that occurs over and over again on full rigged tilt bingo. You said it right! What are the odds of ONE player hitting 2p on the flop much less two players hitting?????!!! F-rigged-T sets it up so that any card on the flop ALMOST ALWAYS helps someone who is in the hand. Rarely do you see a flop (like with a real 52 card deck) that doesn't set up 2 or more players for a showdown that thereby increase the rakes!

nitemare6 on July 1, 2008

Problem is really that its so addictive. Otherwise we would all walk away.
But it clearly is completely fucked. There is no way to calculate odds because they don't follow the rules of a random 52 card deck.

TOO MANY PEOPLE HIT THINGS ON THE FLOP.

I just played a HU SNG that I won because 3 out of 4 hands my full house beat the other guys full house.
Moved to ring game - play ace 10 - flop is A J 10
you know the other guy has A J which needless to say he did.

What are the odds of 2 people holding an ace and one hitting the flop - 12%?
On FTP - Is 99%

kkk777 on July 1, 2008

Here's another one, granted this is a freeroll tournament but here's ANOTHER FUCKING EXAMPLE OF HOW AN INCREDIBLY HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE FAVORITE LOSES ON THE RIVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139158814
$0 + $0 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 14:02:00 01/07/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1324859', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 8 is the button. Small Blind $10, Big Blind $20
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (playing) : itsascam, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing) : paulwilson_68, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing) : HeartsJack, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing) : lucassoulet, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (playing) : v_arnold, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 6 (playing) : RigWPXmyway, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 7 (playing) : seminol, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing) : shazzer_ok, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 9 (playing) : iualex, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
iualex: Small Blind ($10)
itsascam: Big Blind ($20)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to RigWPXmyway: [8d, 6d]
paulwilson_68: Fold
HeartsJack: Fold
lucassoulet: Call ($20)
v_arnold: Fold
RigWPXmyway: Call ($20)
seminol: Fold
shazzer_ok: Fold
iualex: Call ($10)
itsascam: Check ($0)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [7h, Tc, 4h]
iualex: Bet ($20)
itsascam: Fold
lucassoulet: Call ($20)
RigWPXmyway: Call ($20)
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [9c]
iualex: Bet ($20)
lucassoulet: Call ($20)
RigWPXmyway: Raise ($300)
iualex: Fold
lucassoulet: Call ($280)
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [2c]
lucassoulet: Check ($0)
RigWPXmyway: Bet ($500)
lucassoulet: Raise ($1160)
RigWPXmyway: Call ($660)
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
lucassoulet: Show Cards ($0)
RigWPXmyway: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $3080, Rake $0
Summary lucassoulet: bet $1500, won $3080, net $1580, HoleCards [Kc, 7c], HiHand [a flush, king high] [Kc, Tc, 9c, 7c, 2c], won $3080 from main pot
Summary RigWPXmyway: bet $1500, won $0, net $-1500

Of course the asshole would hit the flush, At least that time I was only 81% to win instead of 93%

Have you ever seen anyone so "unlucky" in your life?
By the way, that was the 1st hand in the next tournament after my bad beat in the last one

bad_dog76 on July 1, 2008

Sure online poker is so fair, Here we go again. Top 3 place I'm 4th in chips 6 people left. Here's this hand. And I PLAY IT PERFECTLY AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!


***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139158525
$2 + $0.20 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 13:53:48 01/07/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1324801', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 2 is the button. Small Blind $100, Big Blind $200
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (playing) : BillyRoy, amount $7031, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing) : bar10der, amount $8758, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing) : milehiman, amount $2915, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing) : Philly_Mike, amount $5363, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 9 (playing) : RigWPXmyway, amount $3667, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 10 (playing) : Bean100, amount $6766, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
milehiman: Small Blind ($100)
Philly_Mike: Big Blind ($200)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to RigWPXmyway: [Ah, Qs]
RigWPXmyway: Call ($200)
Bean100: Fold
BillyRoy: Call ($200)
bar10der: Call ($200)
milehiman: Call ($100)
Philly_Mike: Check ($0)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [2s, 3s, Qd]
milehiman: Bet ($200)
Philly_Mike: Fold
RigWPXmyway: Raise ($800)
BillyRoy: Call ($800)
bar10der: Fold
milehiman: Fold
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [9d]
RigWPXmyway: Bet ($2642)
BillyRoy: Call ($2642)
BillyRoy: Show Cards ($0)
RigWPXmyway: Show Cards ($0)
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [Kd]
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
RigWPXmyway: Show Cards ($0)
BillyRoy: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $8234, Rake $0
Summary BillyRoy: bet $3642, won $8234, net $4592, HoleCards [Qc, Kc], HiHand [two pairs, kings and queens] [Kd, Kc, Qd, Qc, 9d], won $8234 from main pot
Summary RigWPXmyway: bet $3642, won $0, net $-3642

Sure, REALLY FUCKING FAIR! 7% on the river, of course he'd hit his 3 outer against me. Once again, just showing how many mother fucking times I go in with the best hand, only to lose to a FUCKING MIRACLE!

bad_dog76 on July 1, 2008

You think stakes matter? LOL! Watch a couple of vidoes by Tuff_Fish. A guy that played at 10-20NL tables on Party Poker. Watch him check raise people $300-$400 only to see them suck out on the river.

The stakes shouldn't matter. The odds and probabilty of EVERY hand include going to the river.

$1 or $1000 AA should hold up against AK 87% of the time. KK should beat JJ 80% of the time and so on, and so forth.

I've played higher levels, same bullshit happens up there, I've watched higher levels than I can afford to play (like 600NL) and see the SAME THING!

All higher stakes mean is that people can afford to play at those levels, doesn't have anything to do with their poker skill.

bad_dog76 on July 1, 2008

Dude, you're playing in $1 tournaments, what do you expect? Of course it's going to the river every hand, and that's when you see bad beats, plain and simple. You move up in stakes, very seldom do you even see a flop.

mike

mrkromer on July 1, 2008

Here's a bunch of hands from one tounament I was kncoked out on hand 36 but here's some things that happened. Again, the HUGE favorite gets BEAT!

Starting with this hand. AQ vs KK;

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139153486
$1 + $0.10 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 10:53:17 01/07/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1324755', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 5 is the button. Small Blind $10, Big Blind $20
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (playing) : milehiman, amount $1670, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing) : Majic56, amount $1790, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing) : eagleman_7, amount $1040, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing) : thejackel, amount $1430, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (playing) : reefbrake, amount $1550, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 6 (playing) : bearbod, amount $1500, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 7 (playing) : seahorsems, amount $1340, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing) : RigWPXmyway, amount $1680, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
bearbod: Small Blind ($10)
seahorsems: Big Blind ($20)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to RigWPXmyway: [Jd, 2h]
RigWPXmyway: Fold
milehiman: Fold
Majic56: Fold
eagleman_7: Fold
thejackel: Call ($20)
reefbrake: Raise ($160)
bearbod: Fold
seahorsems: Fold
thejackel: Raise ($1430)
reefbrake: Call ($1270)
thejackel: Show Cards ($0)
reefbrake: Show Cards ($0)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [Jh, Ac, Qh]
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [6d]
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [3s]
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
thejackel: Show Cards ($0)
reefbrake: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $2890, Rake $0
Summary thejackel: bet $1450, won $0, net $-1450
Summary reefbrake: bet $1430, won $2890, net $1460, HoleCards [Qd, Ad], HiHand [two pairs, aces and queens] [Ad, Ac, Qh, Qd, Jh], won $2890 from main pot

Now this "reefbrake" guy, I've played in MANY tournaments with him, and he ALWAYS sucks out like this, and he's the favorite, his hand ALWAYS holds up. I find that interesting. Anyway,

2 hands later, here's my suckout as I hold JJ vs AA;

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139153537
$1 + $0.10 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 10:54:47 01/07/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1324755', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 7 is the button. Small Blind $10, Big Blind $20
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (playing) : milehiman, amount $1630, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing) : Majic56, amount $1790, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing) : eagleman_7, amount $1000, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (playing) : reefbrake, amount $3150, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 6 (playing) : bearbod, amount $1470, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 7 (playing) : seahorsems, amount $1300, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing) : RigWPXmyway, amount $1660, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
RigWPXmyway: Small Blind ($10)
milehiman: Big Blind ($20)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to RigWPXmyway: [Jh, Js]
Majic56: Raise ($60)
eagleman_7: Fold
reefbrake: Fold
bearbod: Fold
seahorsems: Fold
RigWPXmyway: Call ($50)
milehiman: Call ($40)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [Jc, Qd, 4h]
RigWPXmyway: Check ($0)
milehiman: Bet ($40)
Majic56: Raise ($100)
RigWPXmyway: Raise ($560)
milehiman: Call ($520)
Majic56: Call ($460)
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [4c]
RigWPXmyway: Bet ($1040)
milehiman: Call ($1010)
Majic56: Fold
milehiman: Show Cards ($0)
RigWPXmyway: Show Cards ($0)
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [9s]
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
RigWPXmyway: Show Cards ($0)
milehiman: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $3880, Rake $0
Side pot #1 $30, Rake $0
Summary milehiman: bet $1630, won $0, net $-1630
Summary RigWPXmyway: bet $1660, won $3910, net $2250, HoleCards [Jh, Js], HiHand [a full house, jacks full of fours] [Js, Jh, Jc, 4h, 4c], won $3880 from main pot, won $30 from side pot #1

My JJ getting beat by 88;

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139153868
$1 + $0.10 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 11:07:00 01/07/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1324756', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 8 is the button. Small Blind $25, Big Blind $50
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (playing) : RigWPXmyway, amount $3730, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing) : malwolb, amount $4575, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing) : Infernoman, amount $1788, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (playing) : bearbod, amount $231, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 6 (playing) : The_Wonderkind, amount $1335, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 7 (playing) : Howard, amount $2674, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing) : Agent_______009, amount $1866, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 9 (playing) : eagleman_7, amount $1935, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
eagleman_7: Small Blind ($25)
RigWPXmyway: Big Blind ($50)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to RigWPXmyway: [Jh, Js]
malwolb: Call ($50)
Infernoman: Fold
bearbod: Call ($50)
The_Wonderkind: Fold
Howard: Raise ($150)
Agent_______009: Fold
eagleman_7: Fold
RigWPXmyway: Call ($100)
malwolb: Call ($100)
bearbod: Call ($100)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [2h, 4c, 8d]
RigWPXmyway: Bet ($500)
malwolb: Fold
bearbod: Call ($81)
Howard: Call ($500)
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [Kh]
RigWPXmyway: Bet ($500)
Howard: Raise ($1000)
RigWPXmyway: Call ($500)
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [Qc]
RigWPXmyway: Check ($0)
Howard: Bet ($650)
RigWPXmyway: Call ($650)
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
Howard: Show Cards ($0)
RigWPXmyway: Muck ($0)
bearbod: Muck ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $868, Rake $0
Side pot #1 $4138, Rake $0
Summary RigWPXmyway: bet $2300, won $0, net $-2300, HoleCards [Jh, Js]
Summary bearbod: bet $231, won $0, net $-231
Summary Howard: bet $2300, won $5006, net $2706, HoleCards [8h, 8s], HiHand [three of a kind, eights] [8s, 8h, 8d, Kh, Qc], won $868 from main pot, won $4138 from side pot #1


Same guy who SUCKED out on me with his 88 Vs my JJ Now will suck out against KK and 1010 with his AJ(h);

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139154089
$1 + $0.10 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 11:14:17 01/07/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1324756', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 9 is the button. Small Blind $25, Big Blind $50
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (playing) : RigWPXmyway, amount $555, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing) : PlayaDelSol, amount $3137, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing) : Infernoman, amount $2738, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (playing) : blcowboy2, amount $790, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 6 (playing) : The_Wonderkind, amount $1360, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 7 (playing) : Howard, amount $5380, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 9 (playing) : eagleman_7, amount $1760, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
RigWPXmyway: Small Blind ($25)
PlayaDelSol: Big Blind ($50)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to RigWPXmyway: [9h, 2s]
Infernoman: Call ($50)
blcowboy2: Raise ($790)
The_Wonderkind: Fold
Howard: Call ($790)
eagleman_7: Fold
RigWPXmyway: Fold
PlayaDelSol: Fold
Infernoman: Raise ($2738)
Howard: Call ($1948)
Infernoman: Show Cards ($0)
blcowboy2: Show Cards ($0)
Howard: Show Cards ($0)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [7h, 6h, 8h]
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [Ad]
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [As]
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
Infernoman: Show Cards ($0)
blcowboy2: Show Cards ($0)
Howard: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $2445, Rake $0
Side pot #1 $3896, Rake $0
Summary Infernoman: bet $2788, won $0, net $-2788
Summary blcowboy2: bet $790, won $0, net $-790
Summary Howard: bet $2738, won $6341, net $3603, HoleCards [Ah, Jh], HiHand [a flush, ace high] [Ah, Jh, 8h, 7h, 6h], won $2445 from main pot, won $3896 from side pot #1

That's 4 times in a matter of 36 hands that a showdown in which a HUGE favorite was beat. How can anyone HONESTLY believe that this shit is not fixed, or rigged?

Here's another great example from another tournament;

Guy holds 99 vs 47(d);

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139151879
$0 + $0 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 10:22:00 01/07/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1324728', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 9 is the button. Small Blind $75, Big Blind $150
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (playing) : RigWPXmyway, amount $1320, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing) : kingkonghk96, amount $1380, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing) : goosygrl, amount $1380, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing) : pokerpaul57, amount $1495, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (playing) : kimph, amount $3015, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 6 (playing) : uji71, amount $2890, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 7 (playing) : millerman23, amount $900, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing) : darze, amount $1395, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 9 (playing) : shazzer_ok, amount $4935, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 10 (playing) : pattycakes59, amount $3455, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
pattycakes59: Small Blind ($75)
RigWPXmyway: Big Blind ($150)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to RigWPXmyway: [6d, Td]
kingkonghk96: Fold
goosygrl: Fold
pokerpaul57: Fold
kimph: Fold
uji71: Raise ($600)
millerman23: Fold
darze: Fold
shazzer_ok: Call ($600)
pattycakes59: Fold
RigWPXmyway: Fold
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [As, Ad, 8d]
uji71: Bet ($474)
shazzer_ok: Call ($474)
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [5h]
uji71: Bet ($300)
shazzer_ok: Call ($300)
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [6c]
uji71: Bet ($300)
shazzer_ok: Call ($300)
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
uji71: Show Cards ($0)
shazzer_ok: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $3573, Rake $0
Summary uji71: bet $1674, won $0, net $-1674, HoleCards [9d, 9h]
Summary shazzer_ok: bet $1674, won $3573, net $1899, HoleCards [4d, 7d], HiHand [a straight, four to eight] [8d, 7d, 6c, 5h, 4d], won $3573 from main pot


Yeah, online poker is fair, and just. Everyone that loses hands like this are just unlucky. Give me a break!

bad_dog76 on July 1, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerGods View Post
Mad_dog I respect your knowledge but its that type of thinking and wording that gives people a false perspective of the game:

Your words example - I just played in a tournament. I have AQ in the cutoff blinds are 100/200., I have 2850 in chips I raise to 600. Guy to my immediate left goes all in for 2770. I call (putting him on 1010 or JJ) I call. He has 10 10 (ok it's a coin flip) Flop AQK now, before the turn and the river are dealt, I predict a Jack on the river. What do you think the river is? Exactly!

Here you made a marginal call with the WORST hand. Your opponent held the BEST or BETTER hand and in the end his BETTER hand held up, so when you say the best hand NEVER holds up you are not stating the facts. Flip the situation and if you had of won (with the worst hand) this hand we wouldnt even have been reading about it here. I guarantee it, but thats what im saying: like online_suckas! stated (basically) you got to know when to FOLD em and when to HOLDEM. Thats the game my friend and fellow poker player. If the cards are going cold and you recognize things not going right leave the game at first moments notice. This takes time and discipline, but I GUARANTEE doing this paired with making the right decisions will have you making MORE $$$ than you will LOSE, leaving you positive MORE times than NEGATIVE a HIGHER %%% of the time. Good luck at the tables my friend.
Bro, I already explained, it's not that I lost, it's the way I lost. Like kkk777 said. when a board flops AKQ or 789 you can bet the river will make 4 to a str8 about 45% of the time. I know it was a coin flip going in, I was willing to take that gamble, at that time. It was getting late, I was 2nd to the bottom in chips, and my cards had been terrible. That was my time to make a move. Sure I would've loved to have put my chips in with AA KK AK QQ etc, but when my hands were constantly, J3, J6, 29, 27, K2, 37 etc, I didn't know if I'd see a better hand than AQ anytime soon.
My point was that, after the chips are in the pot, you can almost predict what cards will hit. At that point it's too late to do anythig about it, but I think that if you can predict what will happen, and most of the time it does, it's not very "random" at all.

I'm not going to toot my horn, but I have won a couple of pretty decent size tournies, at Turning Stone Casino where the fields were 178 and 199 respectively, with the buy-in being 90+15. I've also walked away with upwards of $1000 playing at the 100NL cash tables on a few occasions as well. Don't get me wrong, I've lost my share too. But my point is, how can I be so much more successful in live games, and be so unsuccessful in online games? And yes, I do adjust my style of play. In live games I'm much more aggressive with hands like 78 and 89 suited, and I'll slow play much bigger hands live, because the odds someone hitting a draw, seem to be far less than they are online. Originally I played this way, online as well. Only to find that hands like 78 and 89 suited are death traps, because someone would usually have a higher straight or flush.
So I decided to play much tighter, this style, online for the most part, worked initially, and still proves to be the best way for me to play. I play big pots with big hands. I don't raise hands like 88 or 99, because most flops are AQK or KQ10 etc. I will call a raise with those hands, but I will not raise. I play any pocket pair, less than 10's for set value, alone. Because honestly, if I am holding 99 and see a flop such as 237, I'll bet hard, only to be called by someone holding 45, and when the turn is an ace I'm drawing dead.

Regardless, playing tighter than hell online, usually earns me respect, so I am able to bluff at a pot here and there, and take it down. Now I've been behind lots of times when I've gone all in, and lost. But looking at my hand history, on the hands in which I've gotten knocked out of tournaments, or felted in cash games about 75% of the time, I've gotten knocked out with, by far, holding the best hand preflop. I've lost with KK to Q10, QQ to A7, KK to JJ etc etc etc.
This is what's frustrating, I can play all day, win a lot of pots, make a few bucks, then, in one hand, someone gets ridiculous, bets $50 at a $4 pot preflop, when I'm holding AA. Am I not supposed to call there? Of course I call. The cards are turned over, They hold A6 I hold AA, The flop 345x7. What the hell can I do, In one hand all the money I grinded out, is gone because of something like that.

I'm not claiming to be a pro, not even close, but I have a firm grasp on the game, I'm always learning, changing up my style, never getting predictable. It just seems, every online site I've played at, lets me get to a certain bankroll level, and then it doesn't let me go any further. No matter what my cards are, I end up losing, and obviously I'm in one of those funks right now. Flopping 2 pair, only to get beat by a better 2 pair, hitting a blank set, so I go broke, playing KK vs Q6 and losing to 2 pair etc. I know cards go in runs, but I mean come on, It shouldn't be so drastic. Poker is random, therefore anything can happen, but it should happen to the probablity levels it's meant to happen. KK shouldn't hold up against Q6 50% of the time, or even 70% of the time. It should hold up 7 out of 8 hands, and online, when your going bad, it doesn't. I'm sure everyone on here, who feel online poker is injust, gets a sinking feeling in the pit of their stomach when they're all in, pre flop, hold AA aond someone turns over 56, especially when the flop is 349. They just sit there and wait, for the inevitable to happen, the river 7, or better yet, running 66. To me, you shouldn't have to feel that way. When you're holding KK and someone turns over K9, you should feel HAPPY, about it. You should be feeling "I'm gonna double up right here". But no, you feel anxious, and nervous, just waiting to see 9A9 on the flop, or 8J10Q, and, much too high a percentage of the time, that's exactly what you see.

I love the game, I really do. Unfortunately, Turning Stone Casino is 80 miles away, and it's hard to just pack up and run up there everyday at say 8PM.
And being my friends, and I, are married, some of them with children, we can't get together every night, or every weekend, like we could 10 years ago, when we started (started because of "Rounders" like everyone else at that time), so my only option is online poker, like everybody else.

bad_dog76 on July 1, 2008

But this is a very common pattern w a board like - A Q 10- you know that a K or J will hit turn or river - It happens so often that you can call it.

Poker God - I don't have the time to track all those hands - thought it was pretty industrious to do a thousand.
I am sure something is suspicious with the site.
I wish this wasnt true.

kkk777 on July 1, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_dog76 View Post
I've just started observing some hands today. Now granted, this is an extremely small sample size, but the last 8 showdowns pre-flop I saw are as follows; (this is on WSEX's poker site)

88 vs Q6 - 88 wins
A10d vs JJ - A10 wins
AQd vs KK - AQ wins with river diamond
AQ vs KK - AQ wins
AK vs 99 - AK wins
QQ vs 99 -QQ wins
AA vs K10c - K10 wins, board goes like this flop K810 Turn 8 River 10
AK vs AQh - AQ wins board goes this way flop Ks 7h Kd, turn 8h, river jh

now why is it that, with the exception of AK vs 99 (in which 99 is 56% favorite) EVERY hand the favorite is, at least 72% to win, yet 6 out of 8 dogs won?
Shoudln't the odds point the other way?

Why the hell would ANYONE want to play online garbage when the best hand NEVER holds up like it should.

Mad_dog I respect your knowledge but its that type of thinking and wording that gives people a false perspective of the game:

Your words example - I just played in a tournament. I have AQ in the cutoff blinds are 100/200., I have 2850 in chips I raise to 600. Guy to my immediate left goes all in for 2770. I call (putting him on 1010 or JJ) I call. He has 10 10 (ok it's a coin flip) Flop AQK now, before the turn and the river are dealt, I predict a Jack on the river. What do you think the river is? Exactly!

Here you made a marginal call with the WORST hand. Your opponent held the BEST or BETTER hand and in the end his BETTER hand held up, so when you say the best hand NEVER holds up you are not stating the facts. Flip the situation and if you had of won (with the worst hand) this hand we wouldnt even have been reading about it here. I guarantee it, but thats what im saying: like online_suckas! stated (basically) you got to know when to FOLD em and when to HOLDEM. Thats the game my friend and fellow poker player. If the cards are going cold and you recognize things not going right leave the game at first moments notice. This takes time and discipline, but I GUARANTEE doing this paired with making the right decisions will have you making MORE $$$ than you will LOSE, leaving you positive MORE times than NEGATIVE a HIGHER %%% of the time. Good luck at the tables my friend.

PokerGods on June 30, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by simo1981 View Post
PokerGods i find it interesting that you have taken the time to personally respond and refute every reaction we all had to your first post. What i find even more unusual is your offer:"""""Give yourself about 3 months of playing this way and if you have a positive ROI and Positive earnings I will deposit $50 into your fulltilt account and if your outcome is negative I want nothing more than you to stop complaining about something you can do nothing about. You can only control yourself and your game. (Proof of sessions and play would be supervised by me or any other full tilt player of my choice). """"". The question im sure all of us are wondering is why are you defending the site to the point where you are putting up your own money to 'prove' its not rigged? I feel that if u didnt have a vested interest (employee, consultant, whatever) in FTP and you genuinely believed what all of us is saying is wrong you would maybe read a few posts roll your eyes laugh to yourself or whatever, not spend what im sure took a lot of time personally and passionately responding to the posts and offering up your hard earned???
What are you gaining by doing this?
I gain nothing and I expect nothing from this forum thats bashing FTP. I like challenges and if you dont agree with what I am saying pay me no mind. If someone speaks to you do you not reply? People are speaking to me so I am replying. I respect your opinion, you can continue believe want you want.

The bet is just to prove a point: the site is not against you, its not luck, its not pokergods, its none of that. Its poker and shit happens, playing poorly doenst and wont make you a winner in the LONG run no matter where you play simo. If I was a employee or someone profiting from full tilt from an investors viewpoint, I wouldnt give a damn because you guys are a very small majority or pecentage of the players that ACTUALLY win/lose $$ there everyday and there will be people who CONTINUE to play there daily regardless of what you believe.

I will continue to make $$ on full tilt taking advantage of poor players and people who continue playing going on tilt thinking that the site/luck/odds are against them. Im throwing myself to the wolves so that maybe my fellow poker players will realize that this type of thinking is erroneous and players should focus on facets and aspects of the game that they can control: their game and mental attitude. Once again I repect your opinion..Good luck at the tables. Get money

PokerGods on June 30, 2008

Bad_dog >>> there are even worse examples of rigging than that hand you cite>>>>>>> the kind of hands that I am talking about are where I don't go all in and maybe fold to one or two players who do push in a lot of chips with a call. After the deal of such hands (if you pay attention) you can clearly see the patterns that were programmed into that hand (which I folded) Rememebr their RNG is likely programmed the same for most smaller tournies and cash games until you get into the higher limits. Meaning............. I will be able to see that if I had stayed in the hand assuming no all-in betting the rigged NG would have distributed the cards in such a way that I would have 2p, the other party would have a higher pair on the flop and get a 2nd pair on the turn and the third guy would get a river suckout to win with trips or a straight/flush etc. like we see over and over again. What this means is >>>>>this rigged skewed system (IMHO) keeps more playes in for the river and thereby "earns" Fulll RIGGED Tilt more rakes THAN might have occurred if I had a pair of say 6s on the flop (let's say its the middle pair on the flop) with a 10 to K kicker, and I bet it and it holds up. Imagine how many players would come and stay on this site if 6s held up or AJ or a pair of 2s or TPTK held up in correlation with the odds. Nope!! Full Rigged needs to create action for the many many newbie players who have recently entered into poker with hopes of being the next Chris Moneymaker or Jamie Gold etc. How do you do that? You skew the hands so they see lots of PAINT and LOTS OF ACES and LOTS OF HIGH HANDS, and most of the players online either don't know any better or don't care until they begin losing more and more $$. By that time many are hooked; and I don't mean on phonics!

nitemare6 on June 30, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2HighIsTheNutz View Post
Look man, I'll say right off if you're a hot-shot poker player who makes thousands at FTP then I apologize if I offended you. I was simply stating the fact that someone claiming to be so on an online message board doesn't necessarily make it true. As for the lying donk I used as an example, it is true what you say about cash games/STTs, but he was making claims that should have been reflected on those sites. When confronted with this, he feigned ignorance. Plus the fact he played like a retard was a giveaway. This is why several of us checked the stats in the first place.

I'm not a losing player. You don't have to believe that, but it's true. The only place where it is true is on FTP. And that was not the case until they flipped the switch. I was ranked 90%+ on officialpokerrankings.com from the time I started on FTP until the floor gave way in the most unreal fashion. Pokerstars gave me $5 free as a promotion. That's now up to $50 and I'll be moving up limits as soon as my bankroll is comfortable enough to do so. Hell would freeze over before a -EV player would be able to accomplish that.

I'm not a rich person - I can't drop $1000 into an online site and go hogwild. I'm merely a PhD student who, incidentally, has published several papers on - you guessed it - statistics. I don't like to throw credentials around because I believe facts should speak for themselves, but I'm not going to get dismissed as some crank. Anyway, that's why I like poker, because I like game theory and statistics - and I'm good at it and I like to exercise my knowledge with poker. It's not about the money for me. And I'm sorry, sir, the shit I saw on FTP was simply not right. If it's working out for you then great - (maybe you contribute enough rake to make it unprofitable for FTP to burn you) - but there's more than a few of us that are taking it up the ass, ostensibly to pad FTP's bottom line.
I feel where your coming from. If I offended you in my reply, forgive me. By far this is the most inteligent correspondence I have received while stating my opinion in this forum. Bankroll management is a key aspect in poker success and your opinion is your opinion & I respect that as well.

PokerGods on June 30, 2008

The site is rigged and offers NON-random poker. All of those players who think they can overcome this and win without any EDGE (meaning all your experience and skill and other nuances or insights and talent that may offer you an edge as good or very good poker players in live games are nullfied by a non-random NG) are kidding themselves and should begin to ask why they are borderline-obsessed on playing rigged online poker!! I have tried all different ways to overcome the rig or skew, as defined by what we have discussed at length here, and it is not doable. I can't play poker on a rigged site where my hands don't hold up in so many varying circumstances that in no way mirror what I or other with experience would expect or find in any live game on the planet!!! "PokerGods" is a charlatan who works at Full Tilt or has some other bias in favor of this rigged site and something to gain. "Full RIGGED Tilt BINGO" is what the site should rightly be called! In my opinion I have ZERO doubt that it is rigged. Zero! Many many others with smarts and poker experience feel the same. Make sure you refer other full Rigged tilt suckers to this URL, if and when you play there.

nitemare6 on June 30, 2008

Here's another typical hand in online poker. Now pokergods you said, I was wrong to call an all-in with AQ am I wrong to call AK in this situation. I'm heads up with this guy at a SnG. Mind you, earlier in the tournament I bluffed him out of a huge pot, and then slow played a full house, over bet the pot on the river and took more chips from him. He broke the 3rd place player when his JJ got lucky against the players KK. So after a few heads up hands, in whic hI beat him every pot we were both in, he went all in once for 4400+ preflop when the blinds were 100/200. I had nothing so I folded and waited for him to pull that shit when I did have something, well about 3 hands later, I had AK, he went all-in with A3, I IMMEDIATELY called and here's what happened;

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 139125538
$2 + $0.20 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 21:16:12 30/06/2008 ET
Table 'Table 1324393', 5 seats max, Real money
Seat 4 is the button. Small Blind $100, Big Blind $200
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 5
Seat 1 (playing) : RigWPXmyway, amount $3070, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing) : dolwick8, amount $4430, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
dolwick8: Small Blind ($100)
RigWPXmyway: Big Blind ($200)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to RigWPXmyway: [Kh, As]
dolwick8: Raise ($4430)
RigWPXmyway: Call ($2870)
RigWPXmyway: Show Cards ($0)
dolwick8: Show Cards ($0)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [Qd, 2c, 4s]
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [9c]
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [3h]
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
RigWPXmyway: Show Cards ($0)
dolwick8: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $6140, Rake $0
Side pot #1 $1360, Rake $0
Summary RigWPXmyway: bet $3070, won $0, net $-3070
Summary dolwick8: bet $4530, won $7500, net $2970, HiHand [a pair of threes] [], won $6140 from main pot, won $1360 from side pot #1

It's not that this happened it's the fact that it happend ALL THE FUCKING TIME! What kind of loser puts in 4430 with A3 when the blinds are 100/200. The only way anyone calls you there is if they have a better hand I which I did, to a 76% clip. And please don't tell me he's trying to steal the blind, because 4430 to win 200 is a ridiculous bet. There's NO ODDS to make that play at any time. It's the fact that morons, like this fish, should be getting busted at a regular clip. But NOOOOOO! online poker sites need to keep people like this around, because they'd lose a lot of business since 70% of online players have no clue and would go broke within the 1st week, as they would get CRUSHED, and walk away with their DONKEY tail between their legs.

There's no way, in hell, anyone will EVER convine me that you can get a, fair, probable game, online with a "random" number generator that is OBVIOUSLY not even close to being random. Guess I played that hand wrong, and I guess I'm just unlucky.

bad_dog76 on June 30, 2008

the key to winning online is recognizing the action flops and knowing when not to go broke.

online_suckas! on June 30, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkk777 View Post
but poker gods - you didnt answer my point about the odds after we tracked 1000 hands
I am happy you have degrees. Mom must be proud

1k hands isnt enough.. Try 1,000,000 and you still wouldnt be close. what degrees. Im homless and use a library PC to play online poker and post in forums.

PokerGods on June 30, 2008

anybody who is a member of real poker training can watch todd's 10k rebuy video and he will confirm all you're greatest fears, he talks about action flops and how poker sites use it to promote high table turnover :)

online_suckas! on June 30, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
PokerGods
"June 29, 2008
We can converse when you learn how to type full sentences: example: you are either work for Full RIGGED Tilt. And also when you learn how to spell example: beleive???? I before E smarty and you are questioning my IQ. If you cant complete sentences or spell it really makes it hard for me to believe that you could even comprehend the game of poker. Better luck next time, I have no reply for you. My diagnosis: hooked on phonics before poker, forums, and dating :D"

Listen a-wipe!!I have a series 7 license and a law degree from Yale; I have traded options professionally for 11 years registered with an options exchange! So...... what I FORGOT about statisitics and probability and math is MORE THAN YOU KNOW or will probably ever know! Got it!!!! Now like I said....... you either work for the Full RIGGED Tilt joker poker site or your poker IQ is less than 90! Which is it?? And by the way while we are on the subject, what are YOUR credentials to defend a site that is CLEARLY rigged and ON-RANDOM according to many smart and experienced players?? I have played poker for almost 20 yeas and this site is a TOTAL JOKE! It has NOTHING to do with my play or anyone's play that is on this forum. Full RIGGED Tilt is a rigged poker site with programmed hands that are set up to defy and defeat the natural probabilities that most of us have seen and expect in LIVE GAMES and with true poker. It has nothing to do with more hands per hour (as I commented on and explained in detail in previous posts). The site is a total joke like most online poker sites. So genius don't confuse typing ability (or lack thereof) and "typos" with intellgience....... you f-uped retard!!

This is my 1st and last reply to you: If you have a law degree and like to trade options. Why are you here complaining and not making money? Your vocabulary would make it appear as if you are....o ...lets say an angry 3rd grader. I have nothing to prove here so my credentials matter not. If you dont like playing there........................DONT! So you can stop Bitching and concentrate on law or trading options...or so called options...

PokerGods on June 30, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
Hell, just this past Saturday, at friends house, my AA was cracked by 34, when he flopped trips. Did I complain? I know that can happen. However, that was the ONLY time all night in which my 7:1 preflop hand lost, and there were, at least, a dozen times in which I had an over pair to 2 under cards>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this is EXACTLY the point bad_dog! It is not THAT BAD BEATS HAPPEN>>>> it is that they happen over and over and over on Full Rigged Tilt. In fact good and strong hands (starting and/or after flop improves them) which then haave powerful odds in favor of HOLDING UP.............. WAY TOO OFTEN lose on this scam site!
You're right on the money! If these types of beat didn't happen so frequently, we'd never even be discussing it

bad_dog76 on June 30, 2008

I've just started observing some hands today. Now granted, this is an extremely small sample size, but the last 8 showdowns pre-flop I saw are as follows; (this is on WSEX's poker site)

88 vs Q6 - 88 wins
A10d vs JJ - A10 wins
AQd vs KK - AQ wins with river diamond
AQ vs KK - AQ wins
AK vs 99 - AK wins
QQ vs 99 -QQ wins
AA vs K10c - K10 wins, board goes like this flop K810 Turn 8 River 10
AK vs AQh - AQ wins board goes this way flop Ks 7h Kd, turn 8h, river jh

now why is it that, with the exception of AK vs 99 (in which 99 is 56% favorite) EVERY hand the favorite is, at least 72% to win, yet 6 out of 8 dogs won?
Shoudln't the odds point the other way?

Why the hell would ANYONE want to play online garbage when the best hand NEVER holds up like it should.

bad_dog76 on June 30, 2008

I'm not sure which way I'm swinging on this debate yet, but here's some funny crap that happened in a Poker Stars sit n go yesterday

$10 + $1 18 person sit n go

I did not get a pp the entire sit no go until the last hand, when I won the whole thing. Pocket 9s vs. k7; they held of course.

The hands I chose to go all in with that were WAY behind: 810 vs ak, hit a 10, 8q suited vs. kk, flopped straight, 910 vs AJ, rivered 9, and 22 vs. AA turned a set. I'm telling you, it wasn't just me either. Others were consistently catching under cards to suck out. 2 hands in a row a guy goes all in with a10 vs. aj and then a9 vs. a8, first hand they split with an AA555 board, second hand guy pairs his 9, then 4 spades on board to go with 8 of spades for flush. WTF??!!?!

mrkromer on June 30, 2008

Hell, just this past Saturday, at friends house, my AA was cracked by 34, when he flopped trips. Did I complain? I know that can happen. However, that was the ONLY time all night in which my 7:1 preflop hand lost, and there were, at least, a dozen times in which I had an over pair to 2 under cards>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this is EXACTLY the point bad_dog! It is not THAT BAD BEATS HAPPEN>>>> it is that they happen over and over and over on Full Rigged Tilt. In fact good and strong hands (starting and/or after flop improves them) which then haave powerful odds in favor of HOLDING UP.............. WAY TOO OFTEN lose on this scam site!

nitemare6 on June 30, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerGods View Post
Yes, I do understand people being skeptical. I have seen these same senarios occur in brick & mortar casinos, WPT tournaments, and the World Series of Poker. If you think im lying check out how last years main event winner jerry yang could do no wrong @ the final table. This was REAL life, not a program, not a simulation, just real players that were playing with real cards & a real dealer. Those episodes of the WSOP still play on ESPN. Check em out, the same things the players here are posting about occur in real life situations and since we dont follow each pro to every cash game and tourney he/she plays we can only account for what we see on TV, but believe me everyone has their share of bad beats and bad luck. I feel you bad_dog, but impobabilities can be found in live casino play and online play and it would be impossible for one person or a group of people to say that they occur more in one realm than the other. They might occur more for that one person or that one group but that is hardly the MAJORITY.

Bro, I know you can take bad beats in live games. I've taken plenty. Hell, just this past Saturday, at friends house, my AA was cracked by 34, when he flopped trips. Did I complain? I know that can happen. However, that was the ONLY time all night in which my 7:1 preflop hand lost, and there were, at least, a dozen times in which I had an over pair to 2 under cards.

Not only have our statistics shown that online poker, is FAR different from live poker, (which is reason enough to wonder if their, supposed, "RNG' is truly, random, so to speak) but the fact that you can't, nor will you ever be able to, see the person dealing the cards.

Dude, come on. Why would HUGE online sites like Absolute Poker, and Ultimate Bet, who have between 8,000-16,000 players at any given time, at each site, jeopardize their reputation by putting "superusers" at their tables?

You don't think these people make enough on the rake alone? In their eyes they don't. So why not put "Superusers" at a high stakes table and rake in a few, hundred thousand, more?

The problem is, these idiots made it so obvious (as is shown by the youtube video, I listed previously, showing how "potripper" ripped everyone off in a $1000 buy-in tournament, as he played over 90% of the hands, and won over 90% of them) and it made it easy for them to get caught. My point is, these guys made it obvious, what's to say, other online poker sites, do the same thing but don't make it so obvious. What's to say they don't place these players at $1-$2NL tables, and rake money in hundreds at a time (in which case it's less obvious, than hundred thousands at a time). What's to say they don't have people at tables, just to push the action and increase the rake?

There were so many reasons for people to be skeptical to begin with, but when two of the biggest online poker sites get caught defrauding their customers, it's almost, next to impossible, not to think, one way or another, you're getting taken.

bad_dog76 on June 30, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerGods View Post
This is a bad example. I dont think you can blame this on online poker. Basically, you are telling me that if me and you were playing heads up and I went all in and showed you that I was holding any mid to big pair 10's to Q's before you made the call, you would still call knowing that you were beatin already? Bad_dog that makes no sense if you knew he had 10's or J's you shouldnt have called, that was a bad decision on your part because AQ isnt a paired hand the only way you would win is by pairing one of your cards which puts you in a race situation for ALL of your chips while you still had enough chips to last atleast 9.5 times (2850/300) around the table without being blinded out. Why not wait for a better spot to put ALL of your money in. He raised you ALL IN telling you that his hand was better and it was. Calling off ALL of your chips w/ AQ is a bad move pre-flop unless. A) you have your opponent out chipped by atleast 3 to 1 or 9000(you) and 3000(him) atleast here if you just want to gamble/race you can AFFORD too. There are some other reasons I wont discuss, but you being beat here was your fault. The best hand pre-flop held up. A senario in which most people complain about NOT happening the most. Most people feel as if the BEST hand pre-flop should ALWAYS win the pot like AA vs. K 10 offsuit, but we all know that this doesnt happen all of the time. Its not the sites fault because you made a bad move. A pair of 10's is clearly better than AQ, you gambled and lost (like you should have). This is an example were you need to go back and analyze your play and make corrections.

Dude, I never said my play was the right one, but at that point I felt like gambling. When the history of my hands on that site, is constantly J3, J6, 27, 92, K4 etc etc. I felt like that was the time to put my chips in. It's not the fact that I lost, it's the way I lost, with 4 to a str8 on the board again. to say the best hand "held up" would be inaccurate. The fact that after the flop I was better than a 3:1 favorite and lost would prove that.

I must be the most ulucky person EVER, in online poker, just like the rest of the people who are skeptical. Seeing as the last 17 out of 20 tournaments I've played in (not including the one mentioned above) I put my money in with the best hand. Doesn't seem very realistic to me. Not to mention how much I've lost in cash games, with hands like QQ vs K8. Losing 3 hands to quads (playing Omaha) when I've flopped a full house in a matter of 12 hands. I mean seriously man, what are the odds of that happening ONCE? Let alone 3 times in a dozen hands?
That's not odd to you?

Like most of the people on here, I'm not bragging about making shitloads of money playing poker, nor do I have the bankroll to throw in a couple grand, and play at $5-$10 or $10-$20NL.
Please explain why, so many people take terrible beats online, that cease to exist in live games. I'm not talking about people chasing flushes or 8 way straight draws. I'm talking about AA vs 8J. I'm talking KK vs Q6. I'm talking a set, after the flop losing to a gut shot straight.
Sorry, this happens all too often on line. Sure it's poker, anything can happen, but it should NOT be happening at the frequency it does, plain and simple.

bad_dog76 on June 30, 2008

You ever notice how when anyone defends Full rigged tilt or any onlne venue they always give broad brush genarlizations about how poker is random and this crap happens in live games, blah blah blah. BUT one thing you never hear... (or see) is the online poker sites (like full rigged joker poker) making a full and complete and candid audit and disclosure of its RNG system to show with more accuracy and to establish credibility that they are using a dealing generator that mirrors what anyone would expect to find in any home game or casino game with a live dealer and a so-called RANDOM deck!! Why don't they do this? The answer is obvious. Think about it. We allege full tilt is guilty of fraud or collusion or of juicing hands or of just not offering true random poker hands and they repeatedly say "well why do we (should we) audit our RNG or do anything to verify that we offer a random dealing system, or prove that it is not PROGRAMMED in any manner to deal a certain way to benefit our sites (rakes) or any other player(s) AND is not subject to tampering. Would you think this is what a credible business would do!! It's like asking why Neil Entwistle fled to the UK after he found his wife and bay dead in January of 2006 rather than calling 911. The answer is obvious, he killed his wife and bay and didn't want to get caught. Thus FRP doesn't offer an audited RNG because it would apparently show that they do not deal random poker hands!!!!!!!!!!! So, unless and until FTP offers a full disclosure and proof (and NO we "skeptical players" dont have any burden of proving that full rigged tilt is RIGGED we can offer personal anecdotal eveidence i.e. circumstantial evidence to make our case) I know that it is most likely a rigged poker site. The burden is on them to show that they are using a fair and random system that in NO way skews hands or uses action cards or in any other way programs hands such that it inures to their benefit OR the benefit of house players or shills or whatever you wish to call them to enable them to take (steal) monies from other good players with these REPETITIVE improbable suckouts and river cards and runner runner runner runner suck-outs that we see FAR TO OFTEN, imho. When we see guys repeatedly calling large raises with J7os or K3 or Q3 etc. etc. etc. OUT OF POSITION in situations where no one else on the planet would call AND THEN hitting the winning hand over and over again.... as I have observed over 5 years, it becomes highly suspicious. Sorry but this DOES NOT happen WITH THE FREQUENCY that it does on Full rigged Tilt in any live game NO MATTER how long a time frame you observe. But Full Rigged Tilt does NOT offer any statistical proof for its paying customers because THEY CANNOT and (let us not forget) they are not subject to any governmental overisght or regulatory body of the USA at this time so they can get away with this BS. So Full Rigged Tilt Joker Poker............... instead of coming on here or any forum with b.s. from your PR people............ simply offer mathematical PROOF that Full Rigged Tilt's dealing system is random. Its really THAT SIMPLE!!!!!!!!!!

nitemare6 on June 30, 2008

"kkk777 June 30, 2008 but poker gods - you didnt answer my point about the odds after we tracked 1000 hands I am happy you have degrees. Mom must be proud">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kkk777 that was my reply to pokergods about the "degrees" (LOL). I asked him what his credentials are and so far he has not replied.

nitemare6 on June 30, 2008

PokerGods i find it interesting that you have taken the time to personally respond and refute every reaction we all had to your first post. What i find even more unusual is your offer:"""""Give yourself about 3 months of playing this way and if you have a positive ROI and Positive earnings I will deposit $50 into your fulltilt account and if your outcome is negative I want nothing more than you to stop complaining about something you can do nothing about. You can only control yourself and your game. (Proof of sessions and play would be supervised by me or any other full tilt player of my choice). """"". The question im sure all of us are wondering is why are you defending the site to the point where you are putting up your own money to 'prove' its not rigged? I feel that if u didnt have a vested interest (employee, consultant, whatever) in FTP and you genuinely believed what all of us is saying is wrong you would maybe read a few posts roll your eyes laugh to yourself or whatever, not spend what im sure took a lot of time personally and passionately responding to the posts and offering up your hard earned???
What are you gaining by doing this?

simo1981 on June 30, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerGods View Post
Ok genius, did you know that online ranking sites DONT take cash games into consideration when ranking a player. So how do you rank players that play strictly ring games? If you play 50 ring game sessions and 2 tournaments a month even if you are Phil Ivey you ARE NOT going to win the 2 monthly tournaments that you play 100% of the time or even 70% of the time consistantly. So genius if player doesnt concentrate on tournaments with buy ins $2 or up and with atleast 18 players or more their player rankings WILL NOT BE ACCURATE. Check the records before you open your mouth. O and online poker sites date back to 5 years or more, when will the CONSPIRACY be uncovered? Or better yet if you have so many problems with online poker sites why play online, just shut up and stop playing. But if you dont play online poker then why are you here complaining about it. My guess is that you are a losing player/hypocrite that needs to vent. :D :)
Look man, I'll say right off if you're a hot-shot poker player who makes thousands at FTP then I apologize if I offended you. I was simply stating the fact that someone claiming to be so on an online message board doesn't necessarily make it true. As for the lying donk I used as an example, it is true what you say about cash games/STTs, but he was making claims that should have been reflected on those sites. When confronted with this, he feigned ignorance. Plus the fact he played like a retard was a giveaway. This is why several of us checked the stats in the first place.

I'm not a losing player. You don't have to believe that, but it's true. The only place where it is true is on FTP. And that was not the case until they flipped the switch. I was ranked 90%+ on officialpokerrankings.com from the time I started on FTP until the floor gave way in the most unreal fashion. Pokerstars gave me $5 free as a promotion. That's now up to $50 and I'll be moving up limits as soon as my bankroll is comfortable enough to do so. Hell would freeze over before a -EV player would be able to accomplish that.

I'm not a rich person - I can't drop $1000 into an online site and go hogwild. I'm merely a PhD student who, incidentally, has published several papers on - you guessed it - statistics. I don't like to throw credentials around because I believe facts should speak for themselves, but I'm not going to get dismissed as some crank. Anyway, that's why I like poker, because I like game theory and statistics - and I'm good at it and I like to exercise my knowledge with poker. It's not about the money for me. And I'm sorry, sir, the shit I saw on FTP was simply not right. If it's working out for you then great - (maybe you contribute enough rake to make it unprofitable for FTP to burn you) - but there's more than a few of us that are taking it up the ass, ostensibly to pad FTP's bottom line.

2HighIsTheNutz on June 30, 2008

but poker gods - you didnt answer my point about the odds after we tracked 1000 hands
I am happy you have degrees. Mom must be proud

kkk777 on June 30, 2008

ok here's the deal. why anybody would trust to play online is beyond me. I've read most of the post and I dont believe anybody has mentioned this one key element. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BOTTOM CARD! Thats right. If you are playing at the casino once the cards are shuffled they're shuffled. The top card is what it is and the bottom card is what it is. Online The cards are just randomly picked. I'm assuming the odds are the same for everything but still if they need a jack to suck you off, and in real life it got shuffled to the bottom, too fucking bad for them. In online it can pull that jack at anytime. anyways my bro was playing today i still laugh at him. A few of his hands. Heads up. Him Q Q Opponet Q 6 flop 2 3 4 turn 5 river who cares lmao. very next hand. Opponet has been disconnected for a few hands. He comes back shoves all in. bro has J J opponet 6 3. flop 6 3 x turn 6 river 3 hahah lmao. a few hands later. Him A 5 opponet Kd 8. flop 5 9 5 with two dimes. turn dime river dime lmao he lose again. very next hand swear to god Him K K opponet 9 Q flop 2 4 9 turn x river Q hahah lmao again $450 lost in the span of 4 hands. You guys are suckers and I truly feel for you all as all these site are bogus and the math is not at all what it should be.

online_suckas! on June 29, 2008

kriskris summed up the problem with this joker poker site, to-wit: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what you are neglecting to see is that WE NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY OFF OF THE DONKEYS AND THE FISH!!!!!!!!!!. The odds are always in their favor. How would you like me to adopt my play when I flop a full house? IT DOESNT MATTER!! Because the guy with K9 is not going to lay his hand down and he WILL hit that 9 on the river. We are complaining because everytime we are the favorite to win, we LOSE! I should be making tons of money when someone is drawing, but 80% of the time, they will hit their draw. It's disgusting! Full tilt is nowhere close to real poker. And we do play for REAL $$$$ in tourneys. But the same bull shit stands. Yea its my bad play that is causing me lose money. Top two pair, always crushed on the river by another top two pair. Full houses always drowned.....three people pre-flop have pocket pairs and WE ALL HIT A SET??????????????? Yea but we all have bad days in real ring games and real tournament scenarios, and your goint to see them online too and in casinos. But casinos insure against improbability. If full tilt had a bad beat jackpot, they would be broke

nitemare6 on June 29, 2008

PokerGods
"June 29, 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
PokerGods you are either work for Full RIGGED Tilt or you have a poker IQ under 75 and/or just began playing last month! Which is it?!! FUll Tilt joker poker is a garbage site that has benefited from the popularity of poker and is probably crooked as they come. Look at what we are finding out slowly but surely about UltimatBet, Absolute Poker etc. etc. ALL of these online poker sites are scams, adn are cheating in sundry ways!! It is so easy to steal people's monies online and there are enough suckers/gamblers to allow that to happen. F-R-T's business model is to create renadom reinforcement when you first join to suck you in and make you beleive that somehow skill or more experience will prevail. That is a total joke; this site is so non-random and "rigged" that it stinks! I will never play for cash there again... ever!
We can converse when you learn how to type full sentences: example: you are either work for Full RIGGED Tilt. And also when you learn how to spell example: beleive???? I before E smarty and you are questioning my IQ. If you cant complete sentences or spell it really makes it hard for me to believe that you could even comprehend the game of poker. Better luck next time, I have no reply for you. My diagnosis: hooked on phonics before poker, forums, and dating :D"

Listen a-wipe!!I have a series 7 license and a law degree from Yale; I have traded options professionally for 11 years registered with an options exchange! So...... what I FORGOT about statisitics and probability and math is MORE THAN YOU KNOW or will probably ever know! Got it!!!! Now like I said....... you either work for the Full RIGGED Tilt joker poker site or your poker IQ is less than 90! Which is it?? And by the way while we are on the subject, what are YOUR credentials to defend a site that is CLEARLY rigged and ON-RANDOM according to many smart and experienced players?? I have played poker for almost 20 yeas and this site is a TOTAL JOKE! It has NOTHING to do with my play or anyone's play that is on this forum. Full RIGGED Tilt is a rigged poker site with programmed hands that are set up to defy and defeat the natural probabilities that most of us have seen and expect in LIVE GAMES and with true poker. It has nothing to do with more hands per hour (as I commented on and explained in detail in previous posts). The site is a total joke like most online poker sites. So genius don't confuse typing ability (or lack thereof) and "typos" with intellgience....... you f-uped retard!!

nitemare6 on June 29, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant8472 View Post
I have just recently been reading articles on very long thread about people thinking Pokerstars is rigged. If you do a search for 'online poker rigged' you will come across it on the first search page.
That contingent of people are quite adamant and passionate about their feelings and their stories are as atrocious as the ones on this site. Their financial losses are harrowing. One guy claims to have lost $127,000 over a stellar run of bad beats over a 6 months period after having made about $100,000 on another site before joing pokerstars.
Anyone have an opinion about the notion that all the poker sites are designed in much the same way and none are random?
I have noticed a lesser, but still manifest, pattern or cycle of win-some-lose-big-and-long on another site I started to frequent after I got sick of the FT curse. It was partly to see how my fortune might vary and if indeed it would vary at all.
I was winning sit'n'go's and made a nice little profit,. For a time I was sure that my suspicions about FT were confirmed because of the uneven results between FT and this other site.
After doing nicely over 6 SNgs it all started to suddenly go wrong. I have been losing to awful bad beats in a regular fashion. AA became a death hand, I got long dour runs of unplayable cards, people would suck out on me, etc etc.
It isn't as obvious as Full Tilt but it is happening. On one particular night I got dealt AA three seperate times and lost all my chips each time to obviously poorer hands. Maybe the culprit is not just Full Tilt but online gaming in totality. Has anyone played consistently over time on a site which hasn't exhibited this particular manifest cycling tendency of bad luck and bad beats? Is there a site that seems to play fair and random cards all the time?

What you are saying makes perfect sense. My experiences from the Live games and the internet games are not much different. The same things Ive seen online I have also seen at the live tables. There are fluctuations in my live game play almost equal to my internet play. Not even in live play do I feel as if the cards that are dealt to me are completely fair and random, but they are because poker is a random game.

PokerGods on June 29, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkk777 View Post
Poker Stars - where do you live? I might have a new game in mind.
USA - GA whats up? What new game?

PokerGods on June 29, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_dog76 View Post
Here's a GREAT example of how PREDICTABLE online poker is.

I just played in a tournament. I have AQ in the cutoff blinds are 100/200., I have 2850 in chips I raise to 600. Guy to my immediate left goes all in for 2770. I call (putting him on 1010 or JJ) I call. He has 10 10 (ok it's a coin flip) Flop AQK now, before the turn and the river are dealt, I predict a Jack on the river. What do you think the river is? Exactly!

This is a bad example. I dont think you can blame this on online poker. Basically, you are telling me that if me and you were playing heads up and I went all in and showed you that I was holding any mid to big pair 10's to Q's before you made the call, you would still call knowing that you were beatin already? Bad_dog that makes no sense if you knew he had 10's or J's you shouldnt have called, that was a bad decision on your part because AQ isnt a paired hand the only way you would win is by pairing one of your cards which puts you in a race situation for ALL of your chips while you still had enough chips to last atleast 9.5 times (2850/300) around the table without being blinded out. Why not wait for a better spot to put ALL of your money in. He raised you ALL IN telling you that his hand was better and it was. Calling off ALL of your chips w/ AQ is a bad move pre-flop unless. A) you have your opponent out chipped by atleast 3 to 1 or 9000(you) and 3000(him) atleast here if you just want to gamble/race you can AFFORD too. There are some other reasons I wont discuss, but you being beat here was your fault. The best hand pre-flop held up. A senario in which most people complain about NOT happening the most. Most people feel as if the BEST hand pre-flop should ALWAYS win the pot like AA vs. K 10 offsuit, but we all know that this doesnt happen all of the time. Its not the sites fault because you made a bad move. A pair of 10's is clearly better than AQ, you gambled and lost (like you should have). This is an example were you need to go back and analyze your play and make corrections.

PokerGods on June 29, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_dog76 View Post
Hey PokerGods. I agree that poker is random. However, online poker, is anything BUT, random.

People who defend all the odd beats and odd happenings that go on, will always say things like "Oh you're just a loser" or "You have to learn how to adjust your play" or "You see many more hands online than live" etc etc etc.
The thing everyone gets upset about is the amount of times they get beat, when the odds would state otherwise.

While I don't play on Full Tilt, I have played on many online poker sites and they're all the same.
Many flops with JQK (suited) or AKA etc etc.
I can't count how many times I've been all-in, preflop with a hand like AK against A10, and I lose to a 10 on the flop. Although I'm a 3-1 favorite it seems like I lose, at least, 50% of the time. 99 vs 77 someone will hit a 7 or a straight with runner, runner.

It's all of these statistical improbabilities, that happen online that have people skeptical of what's going on.

Yes, I do understand people being skeptical. I have seen these same senarios occur in brick & mortar casinos, WPT tournaments, and the World Series of Poker. If you think im lying check out how last years main event winner jerry yang could do no wrong @ the final table. This was REAL life, not a program, not a simulation, just real players that were playing with real cards & a real dealer. Those episodes of the WSOP still play on ESPN. Check em out, the same things the players here are posting about occur in real life situations and since we dont follow each pro to every cash game and tourney he/she plays we can only account for what we see on TV, but believe me everyone has their share of bad beats and bad luck. I feel you bad_dog, but impobabilities can be found in live casino play and online play and it would be impossible for one person or a group of people to say that they occur more in one realm than the other. They might occur more for that one person or that one group but that is hardly the MAJORITY.

PokerGods on June 29, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2HighIsTheNutz View Post
There's lots of self-described "profitable" players out there folks. I don't take anyone's claims at face value anymore. Just yesterday on Stars there was some guy at the table going on and on about how he was making $1500-2000/mo., poker was his job, etc. A couple of us at the table checked out his online ranking at several different sites and he was a complete fish (<0% ROI, bottom 15% player). People are weird.

This shit we're all talking about will get exposed eventually. Those of you still willingly taking it up the ass should chat with the strong players at their next table. See what they say...

Ok genius, did you know that online ranking sites DONT take cash games into consideration when ranking a player. So how do you rank players that play strictly ring games? If you play 50 ring game sessions and 2 tournaments a month even if you are Phil Ivey you ARE NOT going to win the 2 monthly tournaments that you play 100% of the time or even 70% of the time consistantly. So genius if player doesnt concentrate on tournaments with buy ins $2 or up and with atleast 18 players or more their player rankings WILL NOT BE ACCURATE. Check the records before you open your mouth. O and online poker sites date back to 5 years or more, when will the CONSPIRACY be uncovered? Or better yet if you have so many problems with online poker sites why play online, just shut up and stop playing. But if you dont play online poker then why are you here complaining about it. My guess is that you are a losing player/hypocrite that needs to vent. :D :)

PokerGods on June 29, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitemare6 View Post
PokerGods

you are either work for Full RIGGED Tilt or you have a poker IQ under 75 and/or just began playing last month! Which is it?!! FUll Tilt joker poker is a garbage site that has benefited from the popularity of poker and is probably crooked as they come. Look at what we are finding out slowly but surely about UltimatBet, Absolute Poker etc. etc. ALL of these online poker sites are scams, adn are cheating in sundry ways!! It is so easy to steal people's monies online and there are enough suckers/gamblers to allow that to happen. F-R-T's business model is to create renadom reinforcement when you first join to suck you in and make you beleive that somehow skill or more experience will prevail. That is a total joke; this site is so non-random and "rigged" that it stinks! I will never play for cash there again... ever!
We can converse when you learn how to type full sentences: example: you are either work for Full RIGGED Tilt. And also when you learn how to spell example: beleive???? I before E smarty and you are questioning my IQ. If you cant complete sentences or spell it really makes it hard for me to believe that you could even comprehend the game of poker. Better luck next time, I have no reply for you. My diagnosis: hooked on phonics before poker, forums, and dating :D .

PokerGods on June 29, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by fulltillbroke View Post
Pokergods, trust me i know how to adapt to players and to this ftp machine. I'm playing very tight and im making money there now but it's so damn slow and takes a lot of patience, and sometimes you have to trust that machine won't kill you. Finished last night with KsKd, i raise 5bb everyone folds except one guy who reraise. Ok, he's good, let's try to take him out, i just call. Flop 2s2c4c. I raise, he re-raises i call. Me hoping that he's not one of the players who firmly believes in A4 or even worse A2. Turn 4h, i raise he reraise... Noting suspicious except for the previously mentioned scenarios or possible AA. I finally go all-in, he calls and shows 9h9c, great only 9 on river saves him and there's 4.95% for that. Do i have to tell you what happened...

I dont doubt that you do know how to adjust to cold cards and bad players. Keep making good plays and good bets and it will even out in the long run. Think of it this way, there are ALOT of people making 7 figures a year just playing internet poker...check out annette_15 or any of the other internet pros. Its not luck, we both know this as poker players. Its skill that allows players to get paid in the game. Keep playing well and you will see improvement. Dont focus on what you cant change.

PokerGods on June 29, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by kriskris911 View Post
Wow PokerGod, how much is full tilt paying you to say that? You aren't paying attention to anything that we are saying. We all know about poker, we know about its ups and its downs. I wasn't a beginner when I started playing on full tilt, yes everyone needs to improve their game and adapt to the people they are playing against. Every time you play poker you learn something new and incorporate it into your play. That is one reason why poker is a great game to play. I have runs of bad cards when I play live games. You are right! Lets look at it in the long run. Statistically I make a lot of money playing poker over the long run. But not on full tilt! Any moron knows to take advantage of the weak players, and not to 'tap on the aquarium'. But what you are neglecting to see is that WE NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY OFF OF THE DONKEYS AND THE FISH!!!!!!!!!!. The odds are always in their favor. How would you like me to adopt my play when I flop a full house? IT DOESNT MATTER!! Because the guy with K9 is not going to lay his hand down and he WILL hit that 9 on the river. We are complaining because everytime we are the favorite to win, we LOSE! I should be making tons of money when someone is drawing, but 80% of the time, they will hit their draw. It's disgusting! Full tilt is nowhere close to real poker. And we do play for REAL $$$$ in tourneys. But the same bull shit stands.
Yea its my bad play that is causing me lose money. Top two pair, always crushed on the river by another top two pair. Full houses always drowned.....three people pre-flop have pocket pairs and WE ALL HIT A SET??????????????? Yea but we all have bad days in real ring games and real tournament scenarios, and your goint to see them online too and in casinos. But casinos insure against improbability. If full tilt had a bad beat jackpot, they would be broke!

I was paying attention thats why I replied. No one cares if you are a beginner or not (fact). How does saying your not a beginner help anyone better their game? If you make alot of money playing poker why are you here complaining and not at the tables making $$ or helping people understand whats really going on? (Fiction) Every moron doesnt know how to take advantage of weak players or even spot weak players for that matter, if thats true why do poker books and magazines sell like porno movies. Not to say morons read books, but what would be the need. (Fiction) How do you know who is making $$ off of fish or donkeys speak for yourself, unless you are more than one person. That would explain how you can calculate the odds of bad players drawing out on good players on full tilt, because you are really we. If you aren't making any money maybe you are the fish/donkey. Lets bet on it, best out of 3 heads up matches at full tilt, you verses any one of my full tilt moron buddies of MY choice. Beat them and then we will play. Im not sure about your bankroll, but since you make $$ any heads up table in the range of $2-$10 should be okay for you. Winner shuts up and stays off of this forum. I would bet you $$, but I dont think a player of your caliber would pay up. (Thats called a read, just off the kinda stuff your saying here)

P.S give me the equation for how you came up with 80% of the time donkeys/fish draw on you and every other player and I will add $100 to your monsterous bankroll :D .

PokerGods on June 29, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by simo1981 View Post
PokerGods its easy to say dont blame the site but when the bad beats keep coming and donkey calls keep getting paid of time after time after time after time after time its obvious to even blind freddy something is up. Its SO obvious the odds are not even close to being legit. i agree with u saying adjust your game. on this site adjuyst your game by chasing the runner runner runner draws and 1 outers, you will win.

I understand. So if you really believe that then adjust your game by making incorrect plays and chasing straights & flushes. Give yourself about 3 months of playing this way and if you have a positive ROI and Positive earnings I will deposit $50 into your fulltilt account and if your outcome is negative I want nothing more than you to stop complaining about something you can do nothing about. You can only control yourself and your game. (Proof of sessions and play would be supervised by me or any other full tilt player of my choice). The odds of a coin landing on heads is 50/50, so try flipping a coin 4 times if EVERYTHING based on odds gos PERFECTLY ALL of the time then Heads should come up 2 times and Tails should come up the other 2 times. I guarantee the outcome wont even look like this if you tried it 10 times seperately. This is how you look @ poker just because my flush draw (9 outs) has a 36% chance of hitting from flop to river doesnt mean that is will hit 36% out of ten times I hold the exact same type of draw, but It WILL even out in the long run. A run longer than 2 games today, 1 game tommorow and 5 next week. I understand where your coming from, but the problem might not be how you play the game, buy just how you view it. Good Luck @ the tables

PokerGods on June 29, 2008

LMAO - SNG where 35 hands in a row had either an ace or 3 of a suit on the flop. And the other players are going - no its not rigged.
Then i smashed myself in the head with a hammer

kkk777 on June 28, 2008

i just won a $10, 90 person tourney.
But was due to hardly any skill on my part.
Cards were just insane and timely.
Guy has slowed played AA - I have K 10
flop is 10 10 J - he goes all in
and i collect his chips.

and on and on like that. Was like ftp picked me to win

I suppose so I don't quit playing

kkk777 on June 27, 2008

Ridiculous ftp machine was on my side last night, i won 3 times with smaller pocket pair and 2 times with KQ off against AK off, that's like 20-23% chances for me to win and i won all 5 times. But that's not why i'm here, check this situation, i swear i've never seen anything like this. I folded As5h after two reraises , 3 guys bets up to 17bb. Flop Jh8d5c. First guy goes all-in, second one thinks a while and calls and third one goes all in too??? First one shows 8h8c second one QsQd (there is no higher card on table so he was hoping that he's good) and third one shows JdJc. Turn 5d!!! So if was there, i would have trips too? On turn three guys would have trips and one guy highest pair (or actually two fulls and one with two pairs)? Since river was 6d, it would be only fair if someone folded flush and someone straight lol. You still can make some money there, just play slow and be very patient, always be sure that you have bigger kicker and forget situations where donks can have straight or flush. Don't play any game without at least A10 or KQ or pair, if they read you who cares move to another table or change something for some time but eventually go back to playing safe. Forget about your live game style on ftp, because you will be broke soon. You will think you're good on flop most of the time but don't trust ftp machine.

I could post funny hands all day here, last two hands i got two pairs on flop and guy gets a flush ( AhJd vs. Ks7s - flop AsJs4s) , next hand both get two pairs on flop (K10 vs. J10 - flop K10J, i mean, it's becoming a joke.

fulltillbroke on June 27, 2008

the name is Full RIGGED Tilt Poker ---- not Full Tilt Poker

nitemare6 on June 27, 2008

But what I have noticed on Pokerstars is during the last two tournaments I played, I was the chip leader before the break. After the first break I was card dead.

kriskris911 on June 27, 2008

I am not much of a tournament player, never finished in the money on pokerstars and finished only once on full tilt. During full tilt tournaments I have witness bad beats like those mentioned below. I do not see that on pokerstars. It happens but not at the frequency in which it does on full tilt. Same goes for the cash games.

kriskris911 on June 27, 2008

Here's another GREAT online poker BULLSHIT happening.

SnG tourney. I'm heads up, I'm dealt KK. Blinds are 100/200 I have 2400 in chips, other player has 5100 in ships (give or take a few) I raise to 800. He reraises me all in. Of course I call. He has Q6 (off suit) Flop Q4678. Yeah, I'm only 87% to win before the flop, so him sucking out on me was definitely a statistical probabilty.

The last 13 tournaments I've been knocked out of, I had the BEST HAND when the money went in. Just amazes me how although hands like that should hold up 7 out of 8 times. They may hold up HALF of the time, if your lucky!

bad_dog76 on June 27, 2008

Ya know, I could post here all day if I keep playing. Just got knocked out of a SnG tourney. I was shortstacked had 830 in chips. Blinds were 25/50. I get dealt AA. Raise to 200. Get one caller. Flop is 892 (two spades). gut checks, I go all in he calls, with JQ off suit turn YEP A FUKKING 10! So now I'm drawing dead.

Sure, online poker is VERY realistic LMAO!

bad_dog76 on June 27, 2008

FTP, Pokerstars, Party Poker (back in the day) etc, all work the same. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I play on WSEX because you get 80% of your rake back (It was 100% at one point, but I guess they, now realize they can make money by constantly putting "action" cards on the flop)
Anyway, just playing this morning at a $25NL table, there's a guy to my right with $77 and change. So I'm figurign he's got the golden seat. Well I was right. I'm dealt absolute shit, for the 1st 17 hands. I don't play ONE of them. When I was in the blinds that guy on my left, constantly raised me out of the pot.
Well, I'm dealt KK one hand in the BB, I'm waiting for him to act, as he normally was. He just calls, so I raise 4 times the BB to $1, everyone folds, except the guy to my right. Flop comes K 3 Q rainbow. He checks, I bet the pot (thinking he may have J10 which ALWAYS seems to happen online) He instacalls my $2.50 bet, Next card is a 10 (now there are two clubs on the board) I over bet the pot betting $7. He instacalls again, now I'm scared he has AJ. River brings an 8 of clubs. He checks, I check because God only knows what he's got. Pot goes his way and he turns over FUCKING 39 OF CLUBS FOR A FLUSH????????? Right! I also watched this guy bust somebody with 27 of diamonds as he, again chased his flush to the river against someone who had AJ and hit 2 pair on the flop.
No matter how well you play, or what level you play, you'll see the inprobabilities are the probabilities in online poker, and it really sucks because I LOVE the game.
I'm not claiming, nor have I ever claimed, to be a professional, but I have a pretty dam good grasp on the game, betting techniques, and definitely ODDS and probabilities, that have made me money in live games. Yet, whenever I get to a certain point on line (it seems to be around $300 on WSEX) things like that beat, above happen ALL THE TIME.
They know there's no way I'm getting away from top set on the flop.
Just sat down at a freeroll, one hand I'm out. Dealt KK, as usual, there's always, at least one DONK, who pushes in their whole stack on the first hand, I call. They turn over J7, flop JJ374. Yep, no way is online poker fixed.

KKK777- I did an experiment, much like you did, although I only took 600 hands (200 at 3 tables, at different levels) almost the same results 24% flopped 3 suit, 15% flopped 4. 21% flopped 3 to a straight, 16%, 4 to a straight.

And whoever mentioned that if online poker sites didn't allow DONKS to catch their gutshot draws, and draw out flushes and straights on the river, they'd lose 90% of their business, you'd be 100% correct! And they KNOW IT TOO!

Just watched a guy get busted with KQ. Flop came Q67 turn 9, river 3. Was the guy that busted him holding 8 10? 45? 58? Nope. He was holding Q3 LOL and called a big preflop raise with it LMAO!
Gotta love online poker, it's like playing the lottery!

bad_dog76 on June 27, 2008

I've seen a few FTP specials on Pokerstars, but nothing I'd consider unreal - definitely not at the same rate. Mind you, I haven't been playing on there for as long as I played on FTP, so maybe they'll flip the switch on me soon once I reach The Magical Amount(tm). What I notice the most is that people fold a LOT more on Stars. People will even fold on a re-raise pre-flop if they're bluffing, something that I almost never saw on FTP. There are a lot of donkeys that will play 50% of their hands and bet out on the flop 100% of the time (of course they check if they hit their hand extra hard - lol), but I have yet to see a single one last the distance. On FTP it was almost a given that in an 18-man SNG that the top 2 would have massive chip stacks built on insane beats. I mean, think about it - if FTP was a clean game, 90% of their players would be cleaned out so fast they'd never come back. Another possible motive for juicing the cards if you ask me.

Check out this youtube video of a guy going postal about FTP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEAT_MCsh0I (warning: much inappropriate language). LOL.

2HighIsTheNutz on June 27, 2008

I have just recently been reading articles on very long thread about people thinking Pokerstars is rigged. If you do a search for 'online poker rigged' you will come across it on the first search page.
That contingent of people are quite adamant and passionate about their feelings and their stories are as atrocious as the ones on this site. Their financial losses are harrowing. One guy claims to have lost $127,000 over a stellar run of bad beats over a 6 months period after having made about $100,000 on another site before joing pokerstars.
Anyone have an opinion about the notion that all the poker sites are designed in much the same way and none are random?
I have noticed a lesser, but still manifest, pattern or cycle of win-some-lose-big-and-long on another site I started to frequent after I got sick of the FT curse. It was partly to see how my fortune might vary and if indeed it would vary at all.
I was winning sit'n'go's and made a nice little profit,. For a time I was sure that my suspicions about FT were confirmed because of the uneven results between FT and this other site.
After doing nicely over 6 SNgs it all started to suddenly go wrong. I have been losing to awful bad beats in a regular fashion. AA became a death hand, I got long dour runs of unplayable cards, people would suck out on me, etc etc.
It isn't as obvious as Full Tilt but it is happening. On one particular night I got dealt AA three seperate times and lost all my chips each time to obviously poorer hands. Maybe the culprit is not just Full Tilt but online gaming in totality. Has anyone played consistently over time on a site which hasn't exhibited this particular manifest cycling tendency of bad luck and bad beats? Is there a site that seems to play fair and random cards all the time?

Ant8472 on June 26, 2008

I consider myself a decent player that plays smart poker! Just to set the record straight.. I'm not one of those guy that make a tons of money playin' on-line poker. (Av.profit 2$ / Av. strake $7 / Av.ROI... 6$)... as ya'll can see I'm no poker pro and no donkey! WELL... I know the odds aren't always legit and it's programmed so that the site makes more & more cash but... you know... I just wanna play!!! I've tried PK stars then switched to Full tilt... After making good money the first few sitNgo, bad beats started happening way to often! Then, last night, I decided to play in a 24$+2$ sit-n-go... thinking that there'd be more smart players/less donkey. We started with 1500 chips( blinds are 15-30). SECOND hand... I wake up with AA on the Big Blind.
Some guy raises to 90, two other players call and when it comes back to me, I re-raised and make it 360. The guy at my left instantly calls. Now we're heads-up. The flop is K-2-7... he's the first to act and he bets 180. There's no possible flush draw or straight draw...I'm putting him on AK... in this situation I'd normally just call but knowing too well that he might suck out on the river or somethin' I GO ALL IN with my 1170$ remaining chips THEN he INSTANTLY CALLS and push his remaining 990$!!! NOW I'm thinking he has KK and flopped a set ( and that would've been ok) NO NO NO he has NOTHING!!! AJ of hearts

And this guy's stats on sharkscope were good so I knew he,s no donkey wright?
I'm thinking to myself... man this guy must be crazy putting his 24$ on the line with NOTHING not even a straight nor a flush draw...

Turns out he knew something I didn't.... J on the turn and a J on the river????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????
How can a decent player make that kind of decision!!!
Calls a 300$ re-raise.... ok
Calls an All-in of 1170$ with AJ when the flop is K-2-7...
... and he has no staright nor flush draw and NO PAIR???
And then hits a J on the turn and a J on the river?

Well, thats IT for me on full tilt guys. Good luck!

naif on June 26, 2008

and bad dogs hand - i have seen that so often

if the flop is A Q K and the other guy holds a 10

no way next card is not a J

kkk777 on June 26, 2008

Dear Poker Gods - anything can happen but at some points the odds have to make sense
I started tracking the hands (- my odds are off top of my head so excuse me if they are off)
Odds of 3 of suit hitting flop are roughly 5% - on FTP after 1000 hands it was 22%
Odds of 4 of suit hitting board - are what ?- 3% - HAPPENED 12%
Can't know how many times 2 players are holding aces - but odds of two players holding an ace and one hitting flop are about 12%
On Full Tilt - IT HAPPENED 65% of hands played to the end - this stat of course is flawed because dont have all the variables.
Aces appeared more than any other card, except 3s.
There were more high cards than low cards. The only time low cards appear are either in a sequence like 5 6 7 4 or in a pair - 3 4 4
Site is geared to do several things - first to make poker more exciting.
More people hit things on the flop than is possible.
Second to increase rake - though this is of course this is FTP's only real motive.
Third - convinces bad players they are good by making the game more like bingo. These players move from play chips to cash. And continue to play for money as it is now more like bingo. I believe some of them even chant bingo when their all in call with a gut shot straight hits.

Poker Stars - where do you live? I might have a new game in mind.

kkk777 on June 26, 2008

Here's a GREAT example of how PREDICTABLE online poker is.

I just played in a tournament. I have AQ in the cutoff blinds are 100/200., I have 2850 in chips I raise to 600. Guy to my immediate left goes all in for 2770. I call (putting him on 1010 or JJ) I call. He has 10 10 (ok it's a coin flip) Flop AQK now, before the turn and the river are dealt, I predict a Jack on the river. What do you think the river is? Exactly!

bad_dog76 on June 26, 2008

Hey PokerGods. I agree that poker is random. However, online poker, is anything BUT, random.

People who defend all the odd beats and odd happenings that go on, will always say things like "Oh you're just a loser" or "You have to learn how to adjust your play" or "You see many more hands online than live" etc etc etc.
The thing everyone gets upset about is the amount of times they get beat, when the odds would state otherwise.

While I don't play on Full Tilt, I have played on many online poker sites and they're all the same.
Many flops with JQK (suited) or AKA etc etc.
I can't count how many times I've been all-in, preflop with a hand like AK against A10, and I lose to a 10 on the flop. Although I'm a 3-1 favorite it seems like I lose, at least, 50% of the time. 99 vs 77 someone will hit a 7 or a straight with runner, runner.

It's all of these statistical improbabilities, that happen online that have people skeptical of what's going on.

bad_dog76 on June 26, 2008

There's lots of self-described "profitable" players out there folks. I don't take anyone's claims at face value anymore. Just yesterday on Stars there was some guy at the table going on and on about how he was making $1500-2000/mo., poker was his job, etc. A couple of us at the table checked out his online ranking at several different sites and he was a complete fish (<0% ROI, bottom 15% player). People are weird.

This shit we're all talking about will get exposed eventually. Those of you still willingly taking it up the ass should chat with the strong players at their next table. See what they say...

2HighIsTheNutz on June 26, 2008

PokerGods

you are either work for Full RIGGED Tilt or you have a poker IQ under 75 and/or just began playing last month! Which is it?!! FUll Tilt joker poker is a garbage site that has benefited from the popularity of poker and is probably crooked as they come. Look at what we are finding out slowly but surely about UltimatBet, Absolute Poker etc. etc. ALL of these online poker sites are scams, adn are cheating in sundry ways!! It is so easy to steal people's monies online and there are enough suckers/gamblers to allow that to happen. F-R-T's business model is to create renadom reinforcement when you first join to suck you in and make you beleive that somehow skill or more experience will prevail. That is a total joke; this site is so non-random and "rigged" that it stinks! I will never play for cash there again... ever!

nitemare6 on June 25, 2008

And how many times we have to tell you that there's too much action there. More action - more tournaments - more money. As i was writing previous message, one guy had DdJs other had Ah10s and third had AsKd. After some raising and calling flop was KcDsJd. So, straight, two pairs and pair of kings with ace kicker. Of course all three players goes all-in. This is not strange at ftp, only thing that was strange was that DdJs guy didn't get full on river

fulltillbroke on June 25, 2008

Pokergods, trust me i know how to adapt to players and to this ftp machine. I'm playing very tight and im making money there now but it's so damn slow and takes a lot of patience, and sometimes you have to trust that machine won't kill you. Finished last night with KsKd, i raise 5bb everyone folds except one guy who reraise. Ok, he's good, let's try to take him out, i just call. Flop 2s2c4c. I raise, he re-raises i call. Me hoping that he's not one of the players who firmly believes in A4 or even worse A2. Turn 4h, i raise he reraise... Noting suspicious except for the previously mentioned scenarios or possible AA. I finally go all-in, he calls and shows 9h9c, great only 9 on river saves him and there's 4.95% for that. Do i have to tell you what happened...

fulltillbroke on June 25, 2008

Wow PokerGod, how much is full tilt paying you to say that? You aren't paying attention to anything that we are saying. We all know about poker, we know about its ups and its downs. I wasn't a beginner when I started playing on full tilt, yes everyone needs to improve their game and adapt to the people they are playing against. Every time you play poker you learn something new and incorporate it into your play. That is one reason why poker is a great game to play. I have runs of bad cards when I play live games. You are right! Lets look at it in the long run. Statistically I make a lot of money playing poker over the long run. But not on full tilt! Any moron knows to take advantage of the weak players, and not to 'tap on the aquarium'. But what you are neglecting to see is that WE NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY OFF OF THE DONKEYS AND THE FISH!!!!!!!!!!. The odds are always in their favor. How would you like me to adopt my play when I flop a