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-   -   Folding Pocket Aces in a tournament (http://www.homepokergames.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=12795)

Unregistered 04-05-05 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered
playing poker is gambling. if your not willing to gamble with aces preflop you should bet on something else. yes, if your in a tournament and your delt aces and three people are all in your odds arent too great. you can fold and rub your vagina or you can gamble and try to quadruple up knowing your going in with the best hand. its just common sense.

I love players who think playing poker is a gamble. It makes it so much easier for true poker players to win. Keep it up.

jtex_! 04-05-05 03:59 PM

Tell me what you think about this
 
There is no absolute answer in this situation. The best you can do is to put the other players on hands and make the best decision. Call when it’s best, fold when it’s not. In short, just play good poker.

My initial answer was to fold because I’ve played in too many online tournaments where players go all-in on the first hand just looking to double up. In this situation I will play only AA, and I HAVE YET TO WIN A POT. Q8 or J10 or something usually takes it. And, I thought, the aces are a coin flip against three other random hands. But then it occurred to me that the three other hands should NOT be random, especially to a good poker player. Think about what your opponents have. What would they go all in with at the WSOP? Q8? AK? AA?

Here’s a possibility: you’re in the big blind with aces. For some asinine reason a player in late position goes all-in to steal the blinds. We’ll say he has 65s. I know, it’s ridiculous on the first day, when the blinds are pennies, but answer me this… would it be the most ridiculous move you’ve ever seen at a poker table? Not me. Maybe he won his buy in at a free satellite and has no confidence in his ability against the competition. These thoughts are going through the head of the player on his left as he looks down at his pocket jacks. He gets a read and calls. The button player has pocket kings and is a gambler. He likes to mix it up. He calls. Next comes you with your aces. In this situation I would fold. You are a little over 2-1 favorite over the second favorite hand (65s amazingly), but only about 48% to win it all. YOU ARE MOST LIKELY GOING TO BE ELIMINATED. If the gambler on the button has aces instead of kings you are about 52% to tie, 46% to lose and only 2% to win with a four-flush. So you’d be 54% not to lose. Remember that a tie still doubles you up and knocks out the first two players. Most games I’d gamble in this situation but not the first hand at the WSOP. You could make an argument to call or fold here. Your tournament life would depend on a coin flip. In fact, I think that’s the most likely scenario, a group of four hands like this.. JJ KK AA AA. Since it’s probably going to be a chop, you’re only getting about 2-1 on your money, not good pot odds, so I’d fold.
Here’s when I’d call…
This is a plausible possibility: suppose in the original example the first player didn’t have 65s, say he had AK. So it’d be AK, JJ, KK, AA. You go from 48% to win to 64% to win. I would call for sure with this much of an advantage.

So I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’d try to put my opponents on hands (yeah I know, not easy on day 1 hand 1) and call only when I know I have a sizeable advantage to double or quadruple up, not just throw my chips in blindly because my 2 cards say AA.

Unregistered 04-05-05 05:53 PM

on every forum i have seen this question asked, the answer is no Don't fold them it's not like pocket aces strength decreases in a tournament and have you ever seen a pro fold pocket aces, if you have then it's probably after the flop

RioCosta 04-05-05 07:39 PM

Another Basic Play
 
First of all, if you let three people into the flop with the pocket aces, then it's your damn fault. Honestly unless they are all playing premium hands (in which case their cards pretty much cancel each other's out and give you an even better chance to win) you fucked up with the raise. Unless you went all in and three other people called (which is pretty unlikely unless you're playing with a table so bad it would cause the universe to explode).


1,086,008 pots with board cards: (unspecified)

AcAs AhQh KdKh QcQs
% chance of outright win 64.133782 7.546445 18.741114 7.718636
% chance of win or split 65.276315 9.406468 19.168367 8.863379
expected return, % of pot 64.598235 8.369644 18.847927 8.184194
fair pot odds:1 0.548030 10.947940 4.305623 11.218674
pots won: 701542.00 90895.00 204690.00 88881.00

1,086,008 pots with board cards: (unspecified)

AcAs AhKh QcQs KsKd
% chance of outright win 63.810211 8.713564 15.687453 10.577823
% chance of win or split 64.943076 9.924513 16.114798 11.083252
expected return, % of pot 64.269807 9.212202 15.794290 10.723701
fair pot odds:1 0.555941 9.855168 5.331402 8.325139
pots won: 697975.25 100045.25 171527.25 116460.25

1,086,008 pots with board cards: (unspecified)

AcAs AhJh QcQs TcTd
% chance of outright win 55.659074 9.860056 16.672990 16.788919
% chance of win or split 56.678036 10.879017 16.955400 17.071329
expected return, % of pot 56.097952 10.298934 16.743592 16.859521
fair pot odds:1 0.782596 8.709743 4.972434 4.931367
pots won: 609228.25 111847.25 181836.75 183095.75

Honestly, these are likely never to happen in because by the first or second call people without the best of the best hands (like mr AJs right here) will be 99% sure to fold). Gosh, the guy made the right play, the right play just doesn't win all the time, especially if you get enough bad plays against you.

The guy was in late position, went all in and got called by probably one or two dumbasses too many.

I can't imagine this happening in real life. If you were playing online (because 75% of the people online are a breed of sub-mongoloids).then it's probably more likely, but really only at incredibly low stakes. I couldn't imagine someone risk their 100 dollar buy in on q10 suited, now matter how bad they are.

RioCosta 04-05-05 07:45 PM

Also
 
Yeah I would fold aces if they were 48% against kings and 56s except:

1,370,754 pots with board cards: (unspecified)

AcAs KhKd 5s6s
% chance of outright win 60.904582 17.726740 21.082485
% chance of win or split 61.190775 18.012933 21.368677
expected return, % of pot 60.999980 17.822138 21.177882
fair pot odds:1 0.639345 4.610999 3.721907
pots won: 836159.67 244297.67 290296.67

1,370,754 pots with board cards: (unspecified)

AcAs KhKd 5h6h
% chance of outright win 61.159916 17.471479 21.082485
% chance of win or split 61.446036 17.757599 21.368604
expected return, % of pot 61.255290 17.566853 21.177858
fair pot odds:1 0.632512 4.692539 3.721913
pots won: 839659.33 240798.33 290296.33

There, you're a 61% favorite. Again, no reason to fold.

RioCosta 04-05-05 07:53 PM

Whoops
 
I'm sorry I didn't read the JJ, yes you are correct at 48%. However, considering you're only contributing 25% to the pot you should call.

RioCosta 04-05-05 08:16 PM

One more thing
 
Also, you have to weigh the risk vs. reward factor. If you win this pot, you control almost as many chips as the rest of the table has combined, a huge adavantage when it comes to buying pots. Also, you're in a much better position to finish in the money then you were before. Placing in large tournaments is a very difficult thing to do, how many world class players do you know actually finished in the money at last year? It'd be much harder to quadruple up and avoid bad beats etc..... In that scenario you have a good chance to be in a dominating position early on.

Locohombre 04-15-05 04:58 PM

The real question is......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RioCosta
Also, you have to weigh the risk vs. reward factor. If you win this pot, you control almost as many chips as the rest of the table has combined, a huge adavantage when it comes to buying pots. Also, you're in a much better position to finish in the money then you were before. Placing in large tournaments is a very difficult thing to do, how many world class players do you know actually finished in the money at last year? It'd be much harder to quadruple up and avoid bad beats etc..... In that scenario you have a good chance to be in a dominating position early on.

Are you willing to gamble? You are likely looking at around a coin flip with that many callers. If you are not ready to gamble, you have no business playing poker, and you should go home and cry in a corner because you will never win by playing THAT conservative.

The quote above states the prize for winning the coin flip perfectly. You will likely place in the money in the tournament if you play your cards right with that big of a chip stack.

Unregistered 04-25-05 12:33 AM

All in with aces.
 
A few weeks ago I went all in before the flop with pocket aces and 2 other people called. I lost the pot to something stupid. It happens. It was the 1st hand.

Iceman37 04-25-05 08:00 AM

My thoughts...
 
I don't have time to read all six pages of replies in this thread, so if someone has already covered some of these things, my apologies. Nevertheless, these are my thoughts:

First (and I realize this is a hypothetical question) you're virtually guaranteed to never see three people at the same table all-in on the first hand of the WSOP. I doubt you'd see three people in the entire TOURNEY allin on the first hand. But one table? Nah...cause there ain't six aces in the deck.

Second, and I'm not completely sure about this because I haven't taken the time to work the math out in my head, but I think you're favored by more than a coin toss. Not taking into account the other two hands for a moment, a SMALL pair is the favorite about 54/46 vs. two overcards, so the largest pair available has to be a bigger favorite because they aren't overcards now, they're undercards. Add in the likely holdings of the other two callers and I think your only real danger is if a king flops to complete a set for one of them. Obviously this is going to happen once in eight hands, and you have to like those odds. The only other real danger I see is that one of the other allins also has the aces, which removes your chance of hitting the set. Likewise, four suited cards hitting the table could spell disaster if there are two AA hands in it together. I think you have to assume that one player is on AK and another on KK (which is a huge advantage to you) or possibly they're both on AK or KK, which is still a huge advantage. If some idiot has risked his entire tournament on QQ or some other nonsense...well you are getting awesome, awesome odds. In ANY case, you're clearly getting pot odds to call, even if it IS only a 50/50 proposition (and it's not).

Third, tripling up on the first day of the WSOP (even by the end of the day, let alone the first hand) isn't a "minor" consideration, either. That would be huge. I guarantee you'll have sponsors coming out of your ear by that point, for starters. And with the big stack comes a big stick. Big sticks take little pots. Little pots build bigger stacks. Bigger stacks make bigger sticks. You see where this is going, of course.

Last but not least, and I've said this many times before, WHO SAYS YOU CAN'T LAY IT DOWN? So it's more than a coin toss...so you're getting good odds...so the call could make you king for the day, and maybe set you up for a run at the final table...so WHAT?

The fact is, if you're any kind of player you can play out the day and make that money anyway--with a lot less gamble. If you're confident in your abilities, you can let ANY hand go, knowing you'll make it up somewhere else down the road. There is no hand in poker that can't be laid down, and only an idiot says otherwise. Your OBJECT is to get your money in there when you have the best of it, no doubt...and you're not going to have much more the best of it than a situation like this...but there's also a risk/reward ratio to be considered, not to mention that feeling in the pit of your gut if you call and get beat. Think about it this way...if you call and get beat, you have a long ride home and a long year to think about what could have been. But if you muck and see that you would have WON had you played, you have a long tournament ahead of you and a full stack of chips with which to make up for it. Is it any different than the guy who folded the J3os to see the flop come 3 3 J? You see it as the right call for the situation, and you go on to play your tourney. You still have a chance to win when you're sitting at the table.

You only have a bag of peanuts when you're sitting on the plane back home.

SO IN CONCLUSION, my thoughts are this...it IS a 50/50 proposition. Do you go, or don't you? Either call is the right call. And that call comes down to one thing--do you have the balls to play the best hand in poker at the biggest rodeo there is, for a shot at glory?

I know one thing...I'm not tellin'. Hell, I'm not even speculating. Put me in that situation--I'll decide then.

Iceman37 04-25-05 08:14 AM

Oh, another thing...
 
...one of the posts I DID read said, in effect, that you have to play the AA and then added "have you ever seen a pro fold AA?"

The answer is YES. Daniel Negreanu did EXACTLY that, and then devoted his entire column in Cardplayer Magazine to the play.

Of course it wasn't the first hand of the WSOP. He wasn't looking at tripling up. And his reasoning had nothing to do with the odds or the cards or winning or losing (he did it for purely psychological reasons...to prove to himself that he could!)

So yes, there has been at least one pro (the best in the business, I might add) who has folded the rockets.

Unregistered 05-07-05 11:30 AM

V.I.P. Vegas Host
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HomePokerGames Admin
It is the first hand of the WSOP, a player goes all-in with and 3 players call. You figure at least a couple of them have high pairs and ther other player a decent hand. Against 3 other players, AA is a slightly better than 50% favorite (54%). Do you call looking to double up and take the chip lead - knowing you could also bust out on the first hand? or fold knowing that you can double up your stack anyway with less risk - knowing that having the chip lead on the first day means nothing?

With Pocket ACES, I personally Feel you must call & go All in

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Unregistered 05-23-05 06:51 AM

I fold 'em
 
I think it makes a lot of sense to fold the Aces in a tournament game like this. While it's true that the odds are in your favor, the tournament isn't about maximizing your take from any given hand, it's about staying alive. If you're sitting on AA and two players in front of you are all-in before the flop, at least one of them is playing more aggressively than his cards warrent, and I'm happy to have one less source of unpredictability at my table. In order to advance, I want to play at a table where there are fewer people who consistantly bet big before the flop, because I want to see more flops without having to reguarly risk my stack.

Early on, I'm fine with laying low a bit and learning a bit about the other players' styles. I'm just not interested in putting my whole tournament on a coin-flip, even if by winning it, I won the table. I've got enough confidence in capacities to beat the rest of the table over time using playing and reading skill, rather than letting it all ride on the first hand.

So, in this case, I fold and let one or more of these guys bust. True, the one who wins doubles or triples up, but if he keeps playing loose, I'm not worried about him keeping all of those chips.

Locohombre 05-28-05 03:33 PM

It depends when he folded them...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman37
...one of the posts I DID read said, in effect, that you have to play the AA and then added "have you ever seen a pro fold AA?"

The answer is YES. Daniel Negreanu did EXACTLY that, and then devoted his entire column in Cardplayer Magazine to the play.

Of course it wasn't the first hand of the WSOP. He wasn't looking at tripling up. And his reasoning had nothing to do with the odds or the cards or winning or losing (he did it for purely psychological reasons...to prove to himself that he could!)

So yes, there has been at least one pro (the best in the business, I might add) who has folded the rockets.

If he folded them before the flop, then it was a terrible play. On the flop? Could be a great fold, depending on what he's up against. Folding the best possible starting hand before the flop is a terrible idea.

Unregistered 05-31-05 11:26 PM

shutup

thatguy 06-01-05 10:22 AM

I've folded ace/ace.
 
Tournament in Vegas, just a $65 buy-in, down to 4 players. I was sitting on about 70% of the chips, with the other 3 sitting on about 10% each. I'm in the big blind, and the 3 players before go all in. My mindset was to win money that day, so the hardest play of my life was folding ace/ace. With 3 players going all in before me i put someone on another ace, leaving me to a lone ace or a impossible flush or straight draw. the 3 players turned over their cards, showing KQ suited, A/K Suited and 9/9. The 9's trip up on the flop and another ace never shows, making me the loser in the hand. So with that 1 fold, i ended up 70% vs. 30% heads up, and moved my winnings up a guarenteed $1500, ended up winning the whole tournament and taking about $4000 i beleive.

Unregistered 06-01-05 12:50 PM

That's all very cute
 
But can we stay on topic? - Folding pocket aces on the first hand of a tourney, not at the final table.

thatguy 06-01-05 05:55 PM

Um shutup?
 
"have you ever seen a pro fold AA?" was the topic, so be quiet, mmk thanks?

Unregistered 06-02-05 03:06 AM

this was the original topic....mmk????
 
Folding Pocket Aces in a tournament

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is the first hand of the WSOP, a player goes all-in with and 3 players call. You figure at least a couple of them have high pairs and ther other player a decent hand. Against 3 other players, AA is a slightly better than 50% favorite (54%). Do you call looking to double up and take the chip lead - knowing you could also bust out on the first hand? or fold knowing that you can double up your stack anyway with less risk - knowing that having the chip lead on the first day means nothing?

Unregistered 06-02-05 09:30 AM

ummmmmmmm CALLLLL!!!!!

Unregistered 06-02-05 02:34 PM

professional vs amateur
 
It depends on your poker skills. If you're a Phil Helmuth or Daniel Negreanu (or whoever your favorite professional player may be) then you fold. Those guys are not going to put their tournament life at stake on a coin flip on the very first hand of the biggest tourney of the year, no matter what cards they're holding. They rather outplay their opponents and create better odds for themselves.

But for people like you and I, who basically need to triple up on the first day to have a chance to stay alive and go deeper in the tournament, I think it's fair to say you should call.

deekay140 06-05-05 09:27 AM

A coin flip??? Pocket aces are 65% favorite to any hand preflop. If your not gonna play them, why play at all.

Unregistered 06-05-05 03:37 PM

Your wrong
 
Pocket aces are only 85% preflop when its heads up, against 4 players its like 35% preflop.

Unregistered 06-06-05 05:17 PM

Fold em
 
Someone else has the ace obviously. Stupid to go all in first hand..wait till you see them again when you know more about your fellow players.....easy call...most people see poker aces and blow their load....i've lost with them more than I've won with them.....id rather see the flop with pocket two's then go up against a couple wild players preflop with rockets.....

VINCE 06-07-05 06:51 PM

Folding Aces Pre Flop
 
I Been Playing For 20 Years Never Say Never! Yes Sometimes Under Unique Circumstances You Will Or At Least Better Consider Folding The Aces. Here Is The Deal: In A 9 Person Hold Em Game, 80% Of The Time 3 Aces Are Dealt Out In All Variations. If You Have Someone Make A Big Bet Preflop And You Hold Aces Its No Big Deal But If 3 Or More People Call, Get Out!!!!!! At Least 1 Of The Other 4 Are Holding An Ace So You Are Already Looking For The Case Ace Pre Flop! The Best Thing For Guys Like Me Is Espn Showing These Tournements. People Dont Understand They Are Generally Watching The Last Table Of A Tourney. Play Is Considerbly Different In The Phase Of A Toureny And Certainly Way Different In A Money Game. Remember 1 Thing No One Tells You, Holdem Takes 5 To 15 Minutes To Learn And A Lifetime To Master:)

Locohombre 06-09-05 11:07 AM

It doesn't matter!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by VINCE
I Been Playing For 20 Years Never Say Never! Yes Sometimes Under Unique Circumstances You Will Or At Least Better Consider Folding The Aces. Here Is The Deal: In A 9 Person Hold Em Game, 80% Of The Time 3 Aces Are Dealt Out In All Variations. If You Have Someone Make A Big Bet Preflop And You Hold Aces Its No Big Deal But If 3 Or More People Call, Get Out!!!!!! At Least 1 Of The Other 4 Are Holding An Ace So You Are Already Looking For The Case Ace Pre Flop! The Best Thing For Guys Like Me Is Espn Showing These Tournements. People Dont Understand They Are Generally Watching The Last Table Of A Tourney. Play Is Considerbly Different In The Phase Of A Toureny And Certainly Way Different In A Money Game. Remember 1 Thing No One Tells You, Holdem Takes 5 To 15 Minutes To Learn And A Lifetime To Master:)

For one, the pot odds would then be to great to fold the best starting hand on. Second of all, you should never expect the third A to hit anyway. You should only count on your pair of As to hold up. Your odds of hitting the 3rd A with 2 left in the deck are slim anyway.

You should call because if you win this hand, you can go out and eat dinner, then go to bed with your woman, then come back to the game afterwards. You simply wouldn't have to play a freaking hand for hours if you won that hand with AAs. You would only lose 1.5 blinds every 10 hands. You would just have to have to have a lot of discipline, and you coast into the money.

So, you may get a little short stacked there, but you are still in the money.

5thStreetPokerParties.com 06-10-05 11:42 AM

Doyle Brunson has said several times:

"The only hand worth going all-in on during the first day of the WSOP is pocket aces."

How can you play them and risk leaving the tournament on the first hand?... But how can you not play them?

I understand the philosophy of wanting to have as much information as possible before making a decision. But, would you make the a different decision on the 50th hand than on the 1st hand?

You may very well be up against KK or QQ or even AA. I don't see anyone going all-in on the first hand with AK. If someone catches a K or Q, then good for them. You could sit there the rest of the tournament without ever seeing that hand again.

If you're afraid of playing with the best hand in fear of someone drawing a better hand then... you shouldn't be playing at all. Because that's the nature of the game.

I've been in a situation on the first hand of a tourney where I had the nut straight after the turn and the guy to the left of me goes all-in, another guy goes all-in, and I decide to call. We all had Ace-high straights. The only card that can come would be a club on the river to make a flush for one of us to win. The club comes on the river and two of us are eliminated. I felt I made the right play and I don't know anyone who could disagree.

earthslash 06-12-05 02:22 AM

Quote:

If you're afraid of playing with the best hand in fear of someone drawing a better hand then... you shouldn't be playing at all. Because that's the nature of the game.
For No-Limit Texas Holdem, I have to agree with this. Omaha is a different case, but thats not the topic here. Like someone said earlier, AA vs 3 other players is just above a coin flip. Even less if someone else has AA also. A pro might be able to lay it down in that type of situation, but I don't think I could because it might be my only opportunity to gain that many chips.

Unregistered 06-13-05 10:50 AM

Early in my young poker career, I had pocket AA in a cash game. A player raised pre flop and I then re raised as I was supposed to do. He called and we saw the flop. He immediatel went all in. Notknowing this player and how he plays, I eventually layed down my AA thinking that maybe he had a set a Q's as a Q came on the flop. Turns out he had nothing and I lost what should have been a no brainer. Found out later he was just a reckless player. After playing many hours of poker I realized that most players that do an all in after the fact are ususally trying to bluff.
By the end of the night I had made up that pot that should have been mine and then another 250.00. Same player, different results. I flopped a boat and and then checked to him after pre flopped raises. I had 7 6 suited. Flop came 7 6 6. He raised all in. I called and he was done for the night.

So to lay down AA in a tourny, yes, depending on the nature of the table and where you are in chip standing and how far off from winning. AA in a cash game pre flop. Headsup , never again. : )

Unregistered 06-17-05 09:58 PM

dude.... You would quad up with 3 callers.
 
Dude

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomePokerGames Admin
It is the first hand of the WSOP, a player goes all-in with and 3 players call. You figure at least a couple of them have high pairs and ther other player a decent hand. Against 3 other players, AA is a slightly better than 50% favorite (54%). Do you call looking to double up and take the chip lead - knowing you could also bust out on the first hand? or fold knowing that you can double up your stack anyway with less risk - knowing that having the chip lead on the first day means nothing?


Unregistered 07-07-05 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutem
You have to play them. If you can't risk an all in on pocket Aces then you cant win the WSOP.

If you don't have what it takes to FOLD pocket aces in this situation then you probably don't have what it takes to win the WSOP. Think about it for a second. You are a favorite to win but against that many hands you don't have the huge advantage you think you do. And even if you win so what? You have 40K that will be absolutely meaningless by the third day. Don't make the mistake of trying to win the tournament in the first hand.

[Incidentally I've played aces against 4 all-in opponents pre-flop in a cash game. But in the WSOP you can't just tell yourself it was +EV and pull another 10K out if you lose.]

Unregistered 07-12-05 06:54 AM

It all comes down to whether you're the type of person who eases into the pool or jumps in headfirst. You can put the odds out there, the earned value, but until you're in this situation, you'll never know. If this happens to me, I see 3 other callers with, in all likelihood, lesser hands. The fact that this is the WSOP is irrelevant. Would you make the call in your local card game? I think more of us would. As many others have said, you're probably looking at AA calling an AK, KK and maybe something like QQ, JJ or AQs or AJs. For most of these guys the higher end straight is shot, leaving flushes and low end straights. I'd still get my money in the pot on this one, just because the advantage for me in terms of chip stack is much more desirable than the odds that I'll be busted out later. For me and my playing style, I take the risk. If I get em cracked, well then so be it. Assuming no one hits a set on the river, my hand is likely to significantly improve due to the high cards being sucked out already. Odds are that at least a Q or J was folded by the other 6 players as well (the other 12 cards that are out of play) leaving the Aces in a dominating position. I say play em. I can also see the argument of laying em down in favor of outplaying the people later (because lets face it, even if one of the weaker hands wins out ... anyone betting a QQ or JJ or AQ or weaker hand with 1 or two other all-ins is likely to be easily outplayed later...that being said...as a rule, I go in with the best of it early and back out when I don't. It's just how I play.

Unregistered 10-13-05 07:21 PM

Calling in the situation outlined initially is crazy. Do those advocating it know how little those chips they may win are worth? Tournament poker is no different from cash games, in that it requires risks to be taken when there is an overall expectation of profit. However, tourney profit, only comes from finishing in the paid places. Here 50 / 50 chance of going out, only a slight improvement in your chances if you win. YOU HAVE TO FOLD. Early on in tourneys leave all-ins for when you know you're winning the pot.

Unregistered 10-17-05 06:28 PM

If Three others have gone all in before me, I fold. Its just a pair till the flop. I have seen Pockets get killed so many times it's not funny. Your betting all your chips on a pair and have to see the flop is crazy. You have one out while the others could have Three or Four outs.

Unregistered 10-17-05 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered
It all comes down to whether you're the type of person who eases into the pool or jumps in headfirst. You can put the odds out there, the earned value, but until you're in this situation, you'll never know. If this happens to me, I see 3 other callers with, in all likelihood, lesser hands. The fact that this is the WSOP is irrelevant. Would you make the call in your local card game? I think more of us would. As many others have said, you're probably looking at AA calling an AK, KK and maybe something like QQ, JJ or AQs or AJs. For most of these guys the higher end straight is shot, leaving flushes and low end straights. I'd still get my money in the pot on this one, just because the advantage for me in terms of chip stack is much more desirable than the odds that I'll be busted out later. For me and my playing style, I take the risk. If I get em cracked, well then so be it. Assuming no one hits a set on the river, my hand is likely to significantly improve due to the high cards being sucked out already. Odds are that at least a Q or J was folded by the other 6 players as well (the other 12 cards that are out of play) leaving the Aces in a dominating position. I say play em. I can also see the argument of laying em down in favor of outplaying the people later (because lets face it, even if one of the weaker hands wins out ... anyone betting a QQ or JJ or AQ or weaker hand with 1 or two other all-ins is likely to be easily outplayed later...that being said...as a rule, I go in with the best of it early and back out when I don't. It's just how I play.


The problem with that is you assume the others have High Cards, And the lower ones will fold. I have seen this play out to many times to count. Some players will stay in knowing that the high cards are out of the deck, Which gives them a high chance of catching lower ones.

One reason you see gus win so many so Called "Trash Cards" He knows the odds in his favor if the top cards are out of play.

Unregistered 10-19-05 09:27 PM

I just wanted to add after reading a few of these replies that I know which of you are making me money daily and which of you aren't.

Locohombre 10-28-05 04:18 PM

Yes!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 5thStreetPokerParties.com
Doyle Brunson has said several times:

"The only hand worth going all-in on during the first day of the WSOP is pocket aces."

How can you play them and risk leaving the tournament on the first hand?... But how can you not play them?

I understand the philosophy of wanting to have as much information as possible before making a decision. But, would you make the a different decision on the 50th hand than on the 1st hand?

You may very well be up against KK or QQ or even AA. I don't see anyone going all-in on the first hand with AK. If someone catches a K or Q, then good for them. You could sit there the rest of the tournament without ever seeing that hand again.

If you're afraid of playing with the best hand in fear of someone drawing a better hand then... you shouldn't be playing at all. Because that's the nature of the game.

I've been in a situation on the first hand of a tourney where I had the nut straight after the turn and the guy to the left of me goes all-in, another guy goes all-in, and I decide to call. We all had Ace-high straights. The only card that can come would be a club on the river to make a flush for one of us to win. The club comes on the river and two of us are eliminated. I felt I made the right play and I don't know anyone who could disagree.


This guy knows what he is talking about!

pg3 02-08-08 09:09 AM

you would HAVE to call with the best starting hand... sometimes in poker you need to gamble

Sean Gecko 02-10-08 04:26 AM

Its says one player goes all in the three players call.That equals 4 players already all in. Now you wake up with pocket AA its time to decide.

Doyle also says that AA and KK win small pots and lose big pots.

Poker isn't winning hands its making the right decision. If you feel that you can PLAY better then everyone else then I say fold. There is 4 other guys trying to get lucky. It doesn't matter which one does it just means you are gone. 10,000 for one hand.

Now if the table were Pros I would go all in for sure because I wouldn't be sure of my post game flop.

If it were people I don't recognize or can tell they are really bad players I would fold. Knowing I can have a an easy shot to take them out by OUT PLAYING THEM. I have won most of my money by out paying people on the flop.

Gambling is important in poker but you only get paid for the right decisions not how big your ego is becuase you pushed all your chips in on a coin flip due to the fact that there are 4 other players in that hand.
Your not playing against one hand you are playing against 4.

Doyle also says on the first day you shoul just let the pots come easily to you getting in to a hand where you are the under dog is not a good idea.

Lets Look at that again 4 players against one for all of your money 10,000

Or wait a little and take them down later with two pair or a flush.

[url]http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/texas_holdem[/url]

AsAd -49.72% tie 1.08%
AK cl- 8.31% tie 1.08%
KhKs - 10.59% tie 1.08%
JdJh- 14.37 % tie .35%
QdQs- 15.73% tie .35

Aces are great heads up the problem is they are just a pocket pair which makes them the second worst hand on the rank card (Royal flush to high card)

Well not that this will change anyones minds go push your chips in and I will still probably call because ace are a cruel cock tease.

Be cool
Sean Gecko

Lottery Larry 04-28-08 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 145948)
and am a accomplished tournament player.

As far as the Pocket rockets go if there are other callers as tempting as it would be to play you MUST lay them down.....if you are deeper in a tourney and have low chips then ok go for it but in the begining why leave the tournament up to luck? How many times have you had your AA cracked?

I get my Aces cracked as often as the percentages dictate I will. But if you're regularly passing up 3:1 equity on a 1:1 (at worst) chance of winning... I seriously doubt your statement at the beginning.

Quote:

If you are a good player and do have a overlay on the rest of the field there is no need for me to even tell you what to do...
In large tourney fields your supposed overlay on the other players is so small a percentage, that using it as a justification for this VERY poor strategy decision is indefensible.


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