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-   -   Folding Pocket Aces in a tournament (http://www.homepokergames.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=12795)

Unregistered 12-29-04 01:06 AM

I think if ya toss Pocket Aces you play to tight and are going to bust anyways.

Chris728b 12-29-04 09:15 AM

There is a time to fold pocket Aces, you as a poker player need to know when that time is depending on the flop.

Chad 12-29-04 11:30 AM

Exactally.
 
Never fold aces before the flop.

Chad 12-29-04 11:31 AM

Yeah, I spelled exactly way wrong.
 
See title above

Unregistered 01-02-05 12:47 AM

whats in the pot?
 
I couldnt even finish reading the rest of the threads. First hand you say? Well, what exactly is in the pot?.. The smallest there will ever be, and you want to call with more than one or two unknown players? Just to get an early lead? Wait until there's something to fight for. Dont fly paper dragons, just to kill other paper dragons. Obviously you're concerned, therefore you realize there is a risk of gettin' broke. If youre concerned, you must have some skill. Use it later on when there's reason to fight. You know the odds. Youve seen the beats. Did you go there to gamble? Or to play the once-a-year Big One? For one hand?

Skill must count for something. The others who go all-in are weaker. They NEED the early lead. Let them gamble themselves out the door.
You?....
You survive

Unregistered 01-02-05 03:13 PM

Bang em' pre-flop
 
AA KK QQ A-k, usually dont hold up after the flop especially if ur opponent flops to cards to the flush ot str8 which happens a lot, but would they have called an all-in bet pre flop with 10-9 suited i know i wouldnt, and the people that do are either really convinced that poker is gambeling, or they have so much money that it doesnt matter, or they are complete Newbs or idiots, besides AA&kk are the first and second best starting hands in hold em, and poker is about getting it in when u got the best of it and protectin it when ya dont, so if you go all in with AA pre flop u know ur dominating ne other possible hand there so go ALL IN. ive seen a lot of people lslow play em and get busted. just remember its better to win small then to lose big.

Unregistered 01-03-05 02:55 PM

One this everyone is forgetting.....
 
Your Odds are the same as the other three guys for hitting your Set. SO actually they have to hit a card(s) to beat you. If someone goes all in with Suited Connectors this early then he deserves to be knocked out. If he hits his cards then you're out but that is why you play to take a shot at winning the tourn. by playing scared you will never win the whole thing. You may make it to a late round and get some money back but you will never win.

Example: The other day in a live tourn I pushed all in on the 2nd hand with QQ, a player two to my right raised from 25 to 200. He had A Q suited I had QQ. I assumed (correctly) that he had the ace and had to ask did I want to take the chance of being knocked out this early. Well my Qs held up and I went on to the final table with the help of AA a few hands later and KK after that both hands I put someone all in and they called with A in the hole.

My point, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Unregistered 01-28-05 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paynegod
you are getting 4 to one on your money-- there is no way someone has a better preflop hand and if the F---ing world series of poker--
HOW CAN YOU NOT CALL

If you get beat at least you do it with the best hand and amazing preflop money odds

If you win you quadruple up and can relax with 50000 chips on day one which will make you the big swinging dick by the end of the day... in fact you can most likely steal more blinds and dominate the table when you get good hands....

chips are POWER-- even on DAY ONE

I completely agree...very well said

Chad 01-29-05 10:27 AM

I agree with the above poster also...
 
Anyone who disagrees (In a tournament style game) is a pussy and should never be playing poker to begin with.

herbiedeals 01-30-05 10:07 PM

keep it clean
 
My son likes to read this forum but there are a few people who cant keep it clean.

Unregistered 01-31-05 09:33 AM

I see what you are saying but this is poker, colorful words are almost part of the game.
My 7 yr old daughter would like to see scary movies but we don't let her...

Unregistered 02-20-05 05:46 PM

PAs
 
Why Call? no reason to call. You can wait out anything except an all in. It does not show that you are weak. It shows that your odds have increased due to the fact that 3 people will be out of the tournament. The point of day one is to survive and pick up enough pots from weaker players. Why risk your entire tournament on one good hand with good odds? There will be plenty of hands in your favor that you do not need to risk it all. But as mike would say "**** it Im all in"

Locohombre 02-20-05 07:41 PM

Wuss...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered
Why Call? no reason to call. You can wait out anything except an all in. It does not show that you are weak. It shows that your odds have increased due to the fact that 3 people will be out of the tournament. The point of day one is to survive and pick up enough pots from weaker players. Why risk your entire tournament on one good hand with good odds? There will be plenty of hands in your favor that you do not need to risk it all. But as mike would say "**** it Im all in"

You DO realize that by getting your money in with the best hand with that many callers it is in your favor to at least triple up. You are at worst, a coin flip. If you lose, it is unlucky. That happens in poker. If you win, you could go take a nap for 3 hours and proabally come back in the money and having a descent chance to win still. If you are not willing to call with pocket As before the flop, you shouldn't be playing poker at all. PERIOD!

Unregistered 03-15-05 12:05 PM

How could u fold aces its the best starting hand . if its the world series and u pay 10,000 to enter this u should ber ready to gamble. every bodys in with overs or pairs your way ahead before the flop no ones calling with suited connectors.If your scared get a dog playing tight in tournaments gets u nowhere.blinds will eat u up.this strategy isnt playing tight its playing scared and scared money doesnt make money.man up and triple up and then u can play tight.

Unregistered 03-15-05 02:16 PM

if you not gonna call with aces, then you have no stones and dont even play.

Unregistered 03-22-05 07:09 AM

...
 
*the most important thing you do in hold em is fold. knowing when to fold is priceless...why would you call 2 all ins on the first hand? i kno of guys that play at local tournaments that they do that every tourny on their first hand regardless of what their holding...why? because they know that no one wants to be in that position the first hand of a tourny. ive laid down plenty of huge pocket cards when two or more people have gone all in and its never been the wrong decision :)

Locohombre 03-24-05 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered
*the most important thing you do in hold em is fold. knowing when to fold is priceless...why would you call 2 all ins on the first hand? i kno of guys that play at local tournaments that they do that every tourny on their first hand regardless of what their holding...why? because they know that no one wants to be in that position the first hand of a tourny. ive laid down plenty of huge pocket cards when two or more people have gone all in and its never been the wrong decision :)

Did you not read the question? We are talking about pocketAs. I might fold them after the flop on a rare occasion or 2, but never before. If you ever fold pocketAs before the flop, you are obviously inexperienced. IF you go in with the best hand (As), you should WANT more people to call. You will be a coin flip at the worst and if you win, you can likely coast into a paying position without even playing a hand.

Bottom Line: Folding IS important, but folding the best hand is idiotic.

brofriend 03-24-05 04:27 PM

only time to fold is late in a tournament when you are shortstacked and people are in too move up in prizes

Unregistered 03-24-05 04:35 PM

Folding AA is not necessarily idiotic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Locohombre
Did you not read the question? We are talking about pocketAs. I might fold them after the flop on a rare occasion or 2, but never before. If you ever fold pocketAs before the flop, you are obviously inexperienced. IF you go in with the best hand (As), you should WANT more people to call. You will be a coin flip at the worst and if you win, you can likely coast into a paying position without even playing a hand.

Bottom Line: Folding IS important, but folding the best hand is idiotic.

This is not entirely true. When there are (too) many callers your pocket aces become weaker. You will have the best starting hand but the more people see the flop the more likely it is that one out of the pack gets ahead of you.

It's hard to fold them, but if there are three or four people calling, the odds to win the hand with AA can be a lot worse than a coin flip...

Unregistered 03-25-05 04:50 PM

There are implied odds. Yes AA is the best STARTING HAND. Not the best hand. If you have pocket pairs you want to put in a large size bet before the flop to limit your competition, hopefully everyone will fold and you will win the blinds right there. If not, you are in a great position to make alot of money or lose alot of money. You do not want to lose money in a tournament and become short stacked early. People who slow play or overplay top 5 starting hands early get busted early. If there are 2 and you callers all in, you are most likely at 50% to win. 3 and you, you are at best are 40% to win. Now I ask you would you bet $10,000 when you are an underdog? Dont look at the hand strength look at the implied odds of the overall gamble. Even at 50%, that early in tournament, I would fold. There are too many times in a tournament, after the flop, that you will be able to make up that lay down. Never over value a pre flop hand. Its takes skill to properly play after the flop. Anyone can call all in pre flop and win the most money possible, Even with 7-2 os. Lay and wait, undervalue your starting hands before flop(bet them, but dont overplay them), and when you hit a hand play it properly after the flop. Thats how winners win. How many times have you seen the top 5 chip leaders after day one finish in the money? Doesnt happen very often.

Unregistered 03-26-05 05:21 AM

You're not the underdog in the hand if it's the first hand of the tournament. If everyone has equal stacks, AA has pot odds on any number of all-ins. Since it's an all-in situation for everyone, just compare how much money you're getting back for what you're putting in and compare with the odds of you winning. For you and 2 callers if you're 50% to win and getting 3-1 pot odds, easy choice. Even for 40% with you and 3 callers getting 4-1 it works out. Whether you're willing to risk the tournament right there is up to how you want to play the tournament, but since everyone in the hand is going to need to rely on their pre-flop odds, your best bet is to call.

Unregistered 03-26-05 10:52 PM

don't forget there are 5 more cards coming
 
unless something has changed and a pair now beats a set, a straight, or a flush, this is the one time you can sleep good at nite knowing u did the right thing by folding. remember, if you call this is a 5-way hand to the end. in a 5-way pot, a pair, even a pair of aces, is vulnerable. think about this...you could even lose to another pair of aces if one of those four players is sitting on AK and another ace hits the board. there are entirely too many ways to lose this hand for it to be worth it.

i see a lot of posts that talk about guts and luck, but the key to playing good poker is to make decisions that take emotion and luck out of the equation. a well executed bluff doesn't take balls, it takes the intelligence to analyze the situation and determine if the bluff is playable. poker also requires patience, impatient play will get you a seat at the bar more times than it will a seat at the final table. think twice, act once, fold the aces and watch 3 people go home.

HPG ADMIN 03-26-05 11:07 PM

Here is a new twist. Now say you are in a satellite where the Top 10 make it to the WSOP. There are 11 left. You are very high in chip count and someone with a bigger stack goes all-in. You know you are a big favorite in the hand but if you get knocked out then you don't make it. Giving up Aces here would still be a blow to the ego . . . but please tell me no one would call this.

Unregistered 03-26-05 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered
There are implied odds. Yes AA is the best STARTING HAND. Not the best hand. If you have pocket pairs you want to put in a large size bet before the flop to limit your competition, hopefully everyone will fold and you will win the blinds right there. If not, you are in a great position to make alot of money or lose alot of money. You do not want to lose money in a tournament and become short stacked early. People who slow play or overplay top 5 starting hands early get busted early. If there are 2 and you callers all in, you are most likely at 50% to win. 3 and you, you are at best are 40% to win. Now I ask you would you bet $10,000 when you are an underdog? Dont look at the hand strength look at the implied odds of the overall gamble. Even at 50%, that early in tournament, I would fold. There are too many times in a tournament, after the flop, that you will be able to make up that lay down. Never over value a pre flop hand. Its takes skill to properly play after the flop. Anyone can call all in pre flop and win the most money possible, Even with 7-2 os. Lay and wait, undervalue your starting hands before flop(bet them, but dont overplay them), and when you hit a hand play it properly after the flop. Thats how winners win. How many times have you seen the top 5 chip leaders after day one finish in the money? Doesnt happen very often.

This i my earlier post


The above talks about pot odds. You cannot value pot odds as much because you cannot pull money out of your pocket, and keep playing when you lose the hand. You can never make up the odds if you are not playing anymore. If this was a ring game, its a no brainer. Even with 10 callers i would call because even if i lose, in the long run i will make money with that play. There is a huge stratagy difference on hold-em and tournament hold-em. That why alot of pros still do not play tournament holdem.

Unregistered 03-26-05 11:54 PM

3rd post these are all my posts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered
This i my earlier post


I think my post reads strange so im adding this to clarify. I would fold the aces in the tournament but with 10 callers in a ring game would call every time.

The above talks about pot odds. You cannot value pot odds as much because you cannot pull money out of your pocket, and keep playing when you lose the hand. You can never make up the odds if you are not playing anymore. If this was a ring game, its a no brainer. Even with 10 callers i would call because even if i lose, in the long run i will make money with that play. There is a huge stratagy difference on hold-em and tournament hold-em. That why alot of pros still do not play tournament holdem.

I think my post reads strange so im adding this to clarify. I would fold the aces in the tournament but with 10 callers in a ring game would call every time.

Unregistered 03-27-05 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomePokerGames Admin
Here is a new twist. Now say you are in a satellite where the Top 10 make it to the WSOP. There are 11 left. You are very high in chip count and someone with a bigger stack goes all-in. You know you are a big favorite in the hand but if you get knocked out then you don't make it. Giving up Aces here would still be a blow to the ego . . . but please tell me no one would call this.

this is a more interesting situation than the original question, becuase now you're inferring a potential one-on-one hand, in which case the aces give you much more leverage. it would be safe to assume that big stack has a high pair, or is suited, possibly with connectors (with at least one over card). the other twist is the fact that he's all in, which typically means he DOESN'T want a call, especially one seat away from the WSOP. i'm not sure...but there are some days i'd call this just because i'm feeling lucky or have a read on big stack...

Unregistered 03-27-05 09:41 PM

folding aa preflop
 
If it such a bad play here is the case where it worked out increbibly well. Im in 2nd place in the tourney with 8 people left. I have 95k in chips the chip leader has 115k and moves all in preflop I look down and see AA then look around the table and realize there are 3 people with less than 10k and noone else has more than 30k, and the only person that can knock me out just moved in on me so I folded AA. He makes a flush and I live on(he also knocked out 2 people). Iget down to the final 4 and we make a deal for $1400 each. If I call there and get knocked out I lose $1200 because Icouldn't let go of AA. The point is yeah you have aa but if the situation calls for it where you could make alot more $ by folding you have to do it. Please tell me how this was a bad play. If I would have won the hand(after folding) I still would have been happy with the play because for that situation it was the correct play.

Unregistered 03-28-05 03:33 AM

yes that was a terrible play
 
if your going to play your hands scared youll lose more often than not. folding aces in that situation is a terrible fold even though he may have caught the flush. ive lost with aces all in preflop many times. you cant be scared and fault yourself for going in with the best hand. if you would have won that hand you would have had a substantial chip lead and more than likely won the tournament. more often than not you will win with aces all in preflop. if your aiming to just place in the tourney rather than win it all, be my guest. you should come play cards with me and my friends. ill shake your hand for folding aces. as far as the idiot who says they folded aces cause 2 guys were all in first hand, thats just retarted. no matter how many people are all in you are the favorite versus everyone else. you have to calculate your pot odds and if you wanna win or just cruise. but folding aces preflop is just retarted, period.

Unregistered 03-28-05 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered
if your going to play your hands scared youll lose more often than not. folding aces in that situation is a terrible fold even though he may have caught the flush. ive lost with aces all in preflop many times. you cant be scared and fault yourself for going in with the best hand. if you would have won that hand you would have had a substantial chip lead and more than likely won the tournament. more often than not you will win with aces all in preflop. if your aiming to just place in the tourney rather than win it all, be my guest. you should come play cards with me and my friends. ill shake your hand for folding aces. as far as the idiot who says they folded aces cause 2 guys were all in first hand, thats just retarted. no matter how many people are all in you are the favorite versus everyone else. you have to calculate your pot odds and if you wanna win or just cruise. but folding aces preflop is just retarted, period.

here we go again...what do pot odds and probability have to do with playing scared? poker, despite the fact that it is an overwhelmingly men's game, is not about beating your chest, it's about beating your opponent.

and since when has conservative play been indicative of mental retardation? the whole purpose of this forum is to hear other players' thoughts and possibly learn from them, not brag about how great a player you are and how everyone else is a timid fool...did i see u on WPT last nite?

Unregistered 03-28-05 12:33 PM

If you want to talk about odds the odds of me winning that hand(aces vs. chip leader aqhearts). I am a maybe 6-1 favorite but it could cost me about 9-1 money wise if i get unlucky. Folding aa preflop is not a bad play for another reason lets say you are the 5th guy to call now your only like 2-1 against 5 people. how do the #'s work out now for a supposed retard when other people are getting knocked out and you make more real cash. Afterall what good is a big stack through out the tourney if there is no cash in your pocket on the way home.


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