Go Back   HomePokerGames Poker Forum > FORUMS > General Talk

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-10-05, 04:08 PM
thormx53 thormx53 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 16
How to deal with really loose/big betting player?

Hey,

I play NL Hold Em once or twice a week with friends, and they consider me one of the better players we play with (consistent, don't win every week but in the money almost every night). I've played 4 or 5 times now with my friend Rick, and I can't get a read or betting pattern on him. He is a rather goofy kid I know he doesn't have good poker instincts but I can never tell if he is bluffing or not. We usually start with about 30$ in chips, and he will often raise it 4 or 5$ preflop (with blinds at 25 and 50 cents) regardless of his position to the button. He will raise even bigger on the flop/turn/river (sometimes up to 10 bucks) regardless of what kind of cards (face cards, straight/flush draws, pairs, etc) are showing. So far my strategy has been to just call with marginal/good hands and get out of the way with anything else. I never tried to bluff him because when people push him he comes over the top all in.

The problem is although he oftentimes holds complete crap (went all in with 6 7 off suit, community cards were J K 4 8 2 with no flushes, I called him with J 2) but other times he has good cards (a few weeks ago he went all in with 2 2, community was K A 2 5 J with no flushes, I called with A J). How would you guys play a kid like this? He plays with reckless abandon, and often times builds a huge chip lead then loses it all. In a 16 player tournament (2 tables of 8, top 4 from each go to final table) that I won on Saturday I had to act before him all night and probably lost about 15$ of blinds and raised raises (he'd come over the top of me) before he broke down and went from 150$ to nothing in a matter of 4 or 5 hands. Am I playing him correctly by calling when I have good stuff, or is there another way to deal with a player like this?

Thanks, Bill
  #2  
Old 01-11-05, 05:12 PM
Chad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
If there is a time that you think he's bluffing, raise him. (about double or triple of whatever he/she bet) It usually works, unless that same person happens to be on a lucky streak.
  #3  
Old 01-12-05, 01:46 PM
HPG ADMIN HPG ADMIN is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,292
My opinion is this: although he probably is the kind of player who isn't afraid of playing any 2 cards, he probably is smart enough to know when to do it - i.e. what players to do it against. It's possible he is looking at you as a tight-weak player (wont play many hands and folds to aggression). If you want to beat him I think you may want to change your table image. The next question would be - how do i do this?

For the most part you can re-raise him whenever you think you have him beat. But I think you may have to increase your tolerance for risk. If you sit back and have that wait-for-the-nuts attitude you'll just end up waiting so long for that monster hand that by the time oyu get it your stack will be so small (from him stealing pots from you) that even if you beat him, it won't matter much. You may have to get into some battles with him.
  #4  
Old 01-12-05, 02:52 PM
thormx53 thormx53 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 16
Hmm.. I don't think he pays attention to other people's table images because he does this to everyone he plays against. Like I said, he is pretty goofy so I don't think he knows any better than to raise a ton. He learned hoe to play on the play money games at Party Poker so maybe he is just carrying his strategy over from there (since everyone there plays super aggressive)?

I'll try getting into more hands with him. I'd just hate to get into a big raising war with him and get 50% of my chips in the pot with a marginal hand since I really can't tell when he has a good hand or not. I don't even think he knows half the time. At that tournament I mentioned in my first post, he went all in when he thought he had a straight. When everyone folded he showed his cards and said "Straight, 7 to Jack" but was missing an eight. Thats what scares me about him. Having known him for 5 or so years and knowing his personality and demeanor, I honestly don't think he knows what he is doing at the table.
  #5  
Old 01-13-05, 02:57 PM
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Be a station

I think you're playing him absolutely correctly. You dont ever want to bluff someone like that cuz they counter aggression with more aggression. Be a calling station, nothing is going to irritate him more than having every one of his big bets cold called. Check calling in hands he's in will allow you to begin to pick up on his bluffing habbits so that later when he makes the same play you can come over the top. This is just how I handle bulleys, do as you wish.
  #6  
Old 01-13-05, 03:37 PM
HPG ADMIN HPG ADMIN is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,292
I get pushed around by those players all the time. I usually wait until I havea good hand. The problem is that I am usually afraid to see the flop with marginal hands (AJ, KQ, etc) when he raises. Usually I felle good because I avoid crazy hands that can kill me, but I know deep down I am afraid of players like that, and the key to playing NL Hold Em is not having fear so I know my conservative strategy is not the best route.
  #7  
Old 01-14-05, 09:59 AM
Chad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Thumbs down Really?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
I think you're playing him absolutely correctly. You dont ever want to bluff someone like that cuz they counter aggression with more aggression. Be a calling station, nothing is going to irritate him more than having every one of his big bets cold called. Check calling in hands he's in will allow you to begin to pick up on his bluffing habbits so that later when he makes the same play you can come over the top. This is just how I handle bulleys, do as you wish.
So, what if he throws more in? Would you bluff him out then?! How?! Unless you have any kind of hand to begin with, or you plan on betting on the next round, you have no business check/calling.
If you check/raise on the inital bet and you seem like a conservative player, he will be scared and fold unless.
A) He actually has a good hand. OR
B) He has a good tell on you.
  #8  
Old 01-27-05, 05:54 PM
Mago
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I love the bully. I sit in a ring game here in Dallas twice a week. Usually we have two or three real aggressive guys come in and start off immediatly raising the blinds. We play NL 1/2 and 2/5. They win the first round of betting , but if you play back at them when you are ready for a gamble they will stop the aggression after they have been beat. If you are afraid of the re-raise then you are not ready to gamble. These guys will test your resolve at the table, but if you play back at them, then they eventually stop the craziness. The main thing is that you have to show them that you are not afraid of the all in bet. If you are playing tournaments then this is your time to pick up some chips. Let them win the first round of blinds...let's see,ikely they will only win maybe 20.00 on the round because of the aggression. When it comes back to you in the blind and they are sitting on the button or before and they look to steal...raise them. Defend..not at all cost but put them on notice that you can't do that to me. If you can see the flop for cheap and it hits you pretty good. Such as AK AA KK even A Q , don't raise...let them raise and then you go over the top of them. Most likely they will then reraise allin and then the fight is on. Call them and may the best hand at the end win. You are going in the hand the better of the two.

What I am saying is contrary to some peoples theory...poker is and will always be a gamble. You just have to be willing to gamble all your chips. If 20.00 or 30.00 hurts then maybe it is not the game that you need to be in. I doubt it though, you seem to at least know a hand where your " buddy" does not. One thing he does know is if he bets then you all will fold. Stop waiting for the monstor and start challenging. Even if you get busted out, notice has been served. You will become the feared player at the table. respect is the only way you can " bluff". good luck and make some money.
  #9  
Old 01-27-05, 07:55 PM
Chad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago
I love the bully. I sit in a ring game here in Dallas twice a week. Usually we have two or three real aggressive guys come in and start off immediatly raising the blinds. We play NL 1/2 and 2/5. They win the first round of betting , but if you play back at them when you are ready for a gamble they will stop the aggression after they have been beat. If you are afraid of the re-raise then you are not ready to gamble. These guys will test your resolve at the table, but if you play back at them, then they eventually stop the craziness. The main thing is that you have to show them that you are not afraid of the all in bet. If you are playing tournaments then this is your time to pick up some chips. Let them win the first round of blinds...let's see,ikely they will only win maybe 20.00 on the round because of the aggression. When it comes back to you in the blind and they are sitting on the button or before and they look to steal...raise them. Defend..not at all cost but put them on notice that you can't do that to me. If you can see the flop for cheap and it hits you pretty good. Such as AK AA KK even A Q , don't raise...let them raise and then you go over the top of them. Most likely they will then reraise allin and then the fight is on. Call them and may the best hand at the end win. You are going in the hand the better of the two.

What I am saying is contrary to some peoples theory...poker is and will always be a gamble. You just have to be willing to gamble all your chips. If 20.00 or 30.00 hurts then maybe it is not the game that you need to be in. I doubt it though, you seem to at least know a hand where your " buddy" does not. One thing he does know is if he bets then you all will fold. Stop waiting for the monstor and start challenging. Even if you get busted out, notice has been served. You will become the feared player at the table. respect is the only way you can " bluff". good luck and make some money.
Right on the money!
  #10  
Old 02-16-05, 12:42 AM
Iceman37
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
You answered your own question.

Your friend plays like every other over-aggressive idiot-bully I've ever seen:

"He plays with reckless abandon, and often times builds a huge chip lead then loses it all"

So your strategy should be simply this...play solid poker! I totally disagree with the "poker is a gamble" theory...yes, you will have "luck" beat you from time to time...nothing you can do about that. But in the end, the math WILL prevail...so play mathematically sound poker, and you will beat this player regularly.

The only real strategy change I might make is don't bet marginal hands that you THINK you have won (but you're not sure) for value. Take what money you can get until you have the monster...then lower the boom.

I do agree with the one poster's suggestion that you have to play back at players who consistently bulldoze...but only to a point. This strategy SIMPLY DOESN'T WORK AGAINST A WEAK PLAYER...far too often you'll end up putting your OWN self on tilt doing this. Play solid, fundamental poker...get your brain around the math of the game, then simply outplay the weakling. Against a stronger player, though, you HAVE to serve notice that you won't be pushed around...so yes, in that case, you have to play back at them now and then.

Lastly...you probably DO need to alter your table image a bit...by mixing it up. The thing that confounds you about your friend is you just can't get a read on him. Frustrating, isn't it? SO ADAPT THIS! It's time you started frustrating everyone else!
  #11  
Old 03-03-05, 01:24 AM
Andon
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Cool You have to pick your spot

I know this play very well because this is exactly how I play but not all game.
My only reason for playing like this is to get action from marginal hands down the road. And like you said he turn up winner sometimes.
My advice is early on with a hand like A-10 or better push all your chip in even take a chance with K-Q. I know he will fold if he does not have a hand or worst case you get all his chips when he goes with you. By the third or fourth time playing back at him he will be broke or slow down. When you notice he is being less aggressive thats the time to be carefull. He want his chips back he will be so he will over bet top pare make sure you have good kicker or I recomend at least two pare
  #12  
Old 03-04-05, 01:23 AM
Mago
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
In a limit hold'em game math plays huge over time, but in No Limit, it is a gamble. If all you do is play monsters then you will hardly ever make the money that is available. You have to be ready to get all your money in the middle and that is some times with the worst hand going in.

What do I mean by that...? Say you raised the pot...two callers come in, you are holding 6/7 suited. Flop comes 45A. You are now open ended with the potential of having the nut straight and since you raised the pot before, you will bet out even though you did not catch a pair or two. You are only open ended. Now, most of the time the other players are going to put you on a high hand so the A does scare them. So the bet on the flop will win you the pot most of the time.

What if someone plays back at you? Well here is the (Gamble)...do you know the player? Is he a rock? Is he lose? How has he been playing during the night , etc. Are you getting sufficient odds to call his bet or are you going to get all your money in the middle. ( Gamble ) If you raised and he is only bluffing at you then a big raise over the top will most likely get him to fold.
( Gamble ) What if he goes all in, now what? You either have to release the hand or ( Gamble ). Not knowing what he has and knowing that you are open ended you could be getting great odds for your all in call. You will win and you will lose. It is an aggressive play but if you are to win and I mean big, you are going to gamble....not stupidly gamble. You will have to study the math and the odds and then take the calculated (Gamble) that you will win.

( Gamble) That is the nature of poker and especially No Limit Hold em. Strong poker and strong players make the money and weak players who only play monsters can not and never will win over time. ( No Limit that is )

Statisics are only statistics...take craps for example . The dice each have 6 numbers 1 - 6. Let's use the 11 ( 65 ) . Statistically ( Mathematically ) the number eleven is supposed to show up every 16 times it is rolled. That is a true statement. So for every 16th roll I should bet on the 11. Bet 10 dollars and you win 150.00. Good for you and bad for the casino. Or is it? No because the casino knows that the dice could be rolled 100 times and the dice never show an eleven. Statistics show that every 16 rolls it should show up. So what happened? Well on roll 101 the dice rolled an 11, and then the next roll an 11 and then the next. and then three rolls later another 11. So statistically is is now catching up to the math.

And in Poker, over time with few mistakes, if you played only the hands you were supposed to and everyone else did the same, then yes, matematically you would win small or at least break even over time. But is that how you play? No, you play the person...no math there, you play position... no math there, and you play rushes... no math there and also you will bluff from time to time...no math there.

So to say that poker isn't a gamble you do not understand he nature of chance. Skalansky is one of the greats in Poker and I recommend his books. But if you only read him and study he math side of poker you probably can only make a living thru being a serious grinder at the poker table. Tough stuff. But most of us aren't grinders, we want to play. And win. So good luck and play some poker. Cheers.
  #13  
Old 03-04-05, 09:05 AM
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Not a true statement

"Statisics are only statistics...take craps for example . The dice each have 6 numbers 1 - 6. Let's use the 11 ( 65 ) . Statistically ( Mathematically ) the number eleven is supposed to show up every 16 times it is rolled. That is a true statement. So for every 16th roll I should bet on the 11. Bet 10 dollars and you win 150.00. Good for you and bad for the casino. Or is it? No because the casino knows that the dice could be rolled 100 times and the dice never show an eleven. Statistics show that every 16 rolls it should show up. So what happened? Well on roll 101 the dice rolled an 11, and then the next roll an 11 and then the next. and then three rolls later another 11. So statistically is is now catching up to the math."

On average 11 only comes up twice every 36 times, or once every 18 times.
  #14  
Old 03-04-05, 12:15 PM
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Just read a great article authored by Mike Caro on the exact topic you described. Go to his web site and check it out. Basically, he advised to never raise or bet into a player like this, just to call more than normal against a player like this.
  #15  
Old 03-04-05, 06:49 PM
Mago
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
"Statisics are only statistics...take craps for example . The dice each have 6 numbers 1 - 6. Let's use the 11 ( 65 ) . Statistically ( Mathematically ) the number eleven is supposed to show up every 16 times it is rolled. That is a true statement. So for every 16th roll I should bet on the 11. Bet 10 dollars and you win 150.00. Good for you and bad for the casino. Or is it? No because the casino knows that the dice could be rolled 100 times and the dice never show an eleven. Statistics show that every 16 rolls it should show up. So what happened? Well on roll 101 the dice rolled an 11, and then the next roll an 11 and then the next. and then three rolls later another 11. So statistically is is now catching up to the math."

On average 11 only comes up twice every 36 times, or once every 18 times.
Correct odds are once every 18 times that is a better statement than once every 16 times...I do stand corrected, not 16. The odds are paid out at 16 to 1...which gives the casino an edge of 11.11%
  #16  
Old 07-07-05, 09:14 PM
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
What I do with a player like this is get him in as many hands as I can (playable hands for me) I the slow play the shit out of him. Let him bet all night and just keep calling, if he checks throw a beat that you know he will call. After a handfull of losses to a slow-player your loose player will start to tighten up when your in the hand.
  #17  
Old 07-07-05, 09:21 PM
HPG ADMIN HPG ADMIN is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,292
With a great hand oyu can raise and reraise him and he'll reraise you because many times they are just there to push people around or sometimes dont even care if they lose. Slowplaying is good but sometimes you can win a bigger pot when you raise.
  #18  
Old 09-09-05, 05:41 AM
Soyuz Soyuz is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14
When I encounter hyper-aggressive players like that I let them establish their preflop betting momentum by ditching the chaff until I come into a hand. Okay they may pick up a bit in the blinds but at the end of the day if you play you're hands right you'll sting them for a hell of a lot more than they pick up with their overly aggressive play. Players like this never prosper as they are much too reckless.
  #19  
Old 09-09-05, 02:47 PM
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
What I usually do with hot headed, loose aggressive players is play with their heads a bit. I'll do a lot of chip tricks as i play them so they can see that i'm an experienced player, they usually get inmtimidated from that. The best thing to do is to play calculated aggressive against them cuz they usually like to be the agressors.
  #20  
Old 10-06-05, 02:48 PM
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sit to his left and be patient.

The more he bluffs and gets away with it, the more he will bluff.

When you get a hand, make him pay.
  #21  
Old 05-15-07, 12:38 PM
Engine 2 Engine 2 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Sit to his left and be patient.

The more he bluffs and gets away with it, the more he will bluff.

When you get a hand, make him pay.
I agree. You cant bluff so just play your cards if you cant play the player.

It does not matter how big his chip stack gets. Normally over time these players will lose it all in a few hours.

Dont let it bother you that he is geting a big chip stack by playing like crap.

All that matters is that he increases yours when you have the best of it.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.