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Old 12-20-04, 12:36 PM
The Crusher The Crusher is offline
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1
Question Did I do the right thing?

I was in a $100 Tourny this past weekend and it was down to three guys. I'm small blind for 15k. I was dealt K-J offsuit. The guy on the button goes all in, which was about 100k. If I call, I still would have about 20k if I lose, so I called. The big blind folds. He turns over his cards, K-A offsuit. He was ticked (understatement) that I would call, cuz I only had 15k invested in the pot and I risked allmost all my chips with k-j offsuit. I ended up catching a pair of jacks knocking him out pissing him off even more....naturally.
I realized I won because of I got lucky and caught a Jack, but did I make the right move calling in this position with those cards and with little money invested?
Old 12-22-04, 11:55 AM
Posts: n/a
It depends on what kind of player he was. If he was a tight player, you should have assumed that you were the underdog going against an A or a pocket pair. That would have been a bad call then, leaving you with only enough for the blind the next hand. If you were already short stacked, then it would have been a good move reguardless because you can't dump two face cards, while three handed on a short stack. It he was a very aggressive player, it was a good call reguardless.

And yes, it was lucky crap that you won, seeing how the odds were at least 2 to 1 against you (66/33) before the flop, but lucky crap is part of the game.
Old 02-10-05, 06:00 PM
MeanSon MeanSon is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Paducah
Posts: 4
Thumbs up

Every hand is different. Every player is different. Every situation is different. Living in the past will do nothing for anyone's game. Next time you get that hand, you may lay it down becuase someone on here told you it was a bad play. What should matter is that you won with it. I don't really care for it when people cry because their unbeatable big slick got taken down by two jacks. If that could never happen, we wouldn't be gambling.

So, yes, if you won, you did the right thing.
Old 02-10-05, 06:30 PM
Locohombre Locohombre is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 48
Thumbs down

Originally Posted by MeanSon
Every hand is different. Every player is different. Every situation is different. Living in the past will do nothing for anyone's game. Next time you get that hand, you may lay it down becuase someone on here told you it was a bad play. What should matter is that you won with it. I don't really care for it when people cry because their unbeatable big slick got taken down by two jacks. If that could never happen, we wouldn't be gambling.

So, yes, if you won, you did the right thing.
I would have to disagree. If you are putting all of your chips in with the odds at least 2 to 1 against you, you are doing the wrong thing. The above poster is saying that you are doing the right thing by outdrawing someone. How can you purposely outdraw someone?!

If he was a tight player, I would have put him on an A or pp. If he was a loose player, I may have called (incorreclty might I add). There is really not enough information to tell you what I would have done, but a K J off is still pretty solid in a 3 handed game. In NL hold'em, you play the players first and the cards 2nd.

It was still pretty unsportsmanlike for the guy to bitch about his loss though. That kind of sportsmanship reminds me of Josh Arieh or Mike Matasow. 2 to 1 really isn't terrible odds anyway when you are 3 handed.
Old 02-10-05, 07:30 PM
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,292
You put in 15k on the small blind, and now have 105k left over. You call off 85k with a hand which you are almost positive where you are behind.

Your logic seems to be "If I call and win, then I am guaranteed second place AND a huge chip stack but if I lose I still have a small stack which I could get lucky and double up a couple of times and get back in it".

I think your logic was good but I think it was a bad move beccause the bet was just too much. If the guy went all-in for 40-50k or something then I saw call (even if you are a 40% favorite maybe), just to get the chance to knock him out. But the bet was jut too much. Why bother risking 90% of your stack with a hand you know is worse?

This may sound stupid also, but KJ is a bad hand to call with there because there is a big change you are dominated by AK, or KQ, or JJ and have only 1 live card to hit. I would actually feel more comfortable calling that with J-10s.
Old 02-11-05, 01:10 AM
Posts: n/a
at best u were a 50/50 very poor play at the end of the torney.
Old 02-11-05, 10:16 AM
Posts: n/a
I'd say that was a bad call on your part. Not much to gain, but a lot to lose.
Why he was ticked you called I don't understand at all. If I'm short stacked and have A-K I would love for someone to call, and show K-J.
Old 02-11-05, 07:02 PM
Posts: n/a
Without more information it is really hard to say it was a bad call. Doyle say's that there are many times he is the underdog going into a hand but gets , in the words of the other player ( lucky ). What was the other player doing? Was he being aggressive and stealing the blinds? I do that alot when it is a short handed game. That is the only strategy. You have to wipe out the other players by taking there blinds. Was he doing that? Did he have position on you. When you are short stacked or even stacked and the guy keeps pushing, you will have to make a stand somewhere some time. Well, you made it. He got beat. AK is not that great of a hand. As one poster said above, I would rather have 9/10, J/10 than AK. I can make a STR8 more ways than I can with AK. So to argue rather or not you made a bad move...it depends. Gus Hansen makes what most of us would say are terrible plays at the table and you see his results. So luck has a lot to do with it. I was playing in a tourny just recently and was busted out when I went ALL - IN with A J Suited. The other guy raised before me and then I went all in. Making him have to think how good his cards were before he could call. Almost laid them down. But he called, he had A Q. Oh well, an A came at the river and his Q played. He beat me. I could have got lucky but didn't. So again, did you make the right call? It depends on you , the player, the cards, position etc. and a whole lot on gut feel. You won the hand that is all that matters after the fact. If any pro says they have never made a gut play and never drew out on someone, they are all liers. Part of the game. So the lesson is , make sure you know your outs, your odds, etc...at least you can make an intelligent deciscion and then if intelligence doesn't work...use your gut. Have fun...
Old 02-12-05, 11:36 PM
Posts: n/a
There was a bad play made on the hand you describe...

...but I don't think you're the one who made it. Your opponent was shortstacked, yes...but not severely, if he was only 20k or so behind you. If he moved immediately allin preflop with AK (a great 3-player hand) my question is, what the hell was HE thinking? If he was out to steal the blinds, I think that was a mistake with that hand, in that position, with that stack. He should have made a reasonable raise and hoped for a caller against whom he's almost certainly a favorite, and then played the hand out (much more profitable in the long run). If that ploy fails and everyone folds, he has still captured the blinds. Even if he gets a caller and gets beat, it couldn't be considered a "wasted" hand because he started it the likely favorite, played it out, and may very well even be able to get off the hand if it cracks before the showdown, with little loss. Without having played with the guy, and without you giving more detail about his "style", it's kinda hard to say this with certainty, BUT...to me, a shortstacked preflop allin from the button by no means indicates that KJos is behind at all. In fact, to me it screams "blind steal" and you could just as easily have been even or better money (and you were getting better pot odds than that, so the call isn't entirely unreasonable).

Now, ask me if I would have made the call and I say "hell no". But thats MY comfort zone...that doesn't mean the call itself was a bad one, in that particular situation. Simply put, the bad play was made by the guy who got miffed because he thought YOU played badly.
Old 02-15-05, 03:13 PM
Suited Ace
Posts: n/a
Calling off your money

One of the cardinal rules of being a good poker player is don't call off your money..You should only call an all in when you are sure you have the best hand. KJ off suit is not a good hand to call an all in bet with....period. You gotta know you're facing an ace or a pocket pair. The raiser..that is the guy who moves all in always has the psychological advantage over the subsequent acting players.

As far as the the guy who raised all in....I think it was the right move...I see Iceman's point...but I'm a firm believer in taking down pots without showing whenever possible unless you have an absolute "monstrocity" (a term I got from this old guy I play with at the Casinos here neighboring Chicago)...Second....when you're shortstacked...the idea is to get all your money into the pot with the best hand...

As is everything in poker..I do realize that all of these moves depend on the quality of the opposition as well as your own table image...against top knotch players who in turn respect your game also...a standard raise may have been a better play...seeing a normal raise from a player short on chips may have set off alarms that you had a very strong hand and that you were inviting callers.
Old 02-15-05, 03:36 PM
Posts: n/a
Good call to go all-in

What was he thinking? Pretty obvious: He went all-in on A-K and suckered a K-J to call. Any day of the week that is a good all-in. The fact that A-K got outdrawn is part of the game. Strategy wise the A-K player got what he wanted.
Old 02-15-05, 05:38 PM
Posts: n/a
was worth it to him to call

The key part of the original post that it seems no one is taking into account was the fact that he said himself "if I lose, big deal"... so for some reason it was worth the big preflop disadvantage to call. So my question is why the guy is even asking? If he's asking was he in a probable position to succeed, the answer is no, obviously. But for some reason, it was worth it to him to call. There is no right or wrong play when you take into account the "hunch" factor. He called because he wanted to play the hand, and to have a chance to secure second place. It was probably an impulse call, that he didn't give too much thought. He quickly goes through the setting: Two face cards, three handed, chance to take a guy out and probably have a big lead on the remaining player... or, if already behind, make up big time ground on him... saw he had a good pocket hand and called. Had he sat and thought about it for a few minutes (which he may have, but it isn't mentioned) I doubt he would've made the call. The call was most likely on an impulse or hunch, and he didn't care if he lost. For me, the players who don't care about losing are often the most dangerous to play against.
Old 02-16-05, 01:10 AM
Posts: n/a
I still have a problem with the original all-in...

Notwithstanding some good points that have been made, I still believe the original all-in (preflop) was a bad play. This player had everything going for him...position, solid hand, short field, and room to maneuver if he needed it, with a REASONABLE bet. He's the shortest stack at the table, but not crippled, so I believe he needs to attempt to wring the most value possible out of this hand. More often than not, he gets NO callers from this all-in play, so all he's managed to do is steal the blinds, with a premium hand! Now, and most importantly, here's the real problem with this all-in...WHO CAN LEGITIMATELY CALL HIM? Remember, he's got position and a reasonable if not bulletproof stack...so the only call he could legitimately expect to his all-in is from a hand THAT IS LIKELY TO BE EITHER EVEN MONEY AGAINST HIM, OR BETTER THAN HE IS TO BEGIN WITH! Short handed, he's a dog against virtually any pair (or fifty-fifty at best), and while he's going to maybe...MAYBE...entice an AQos or the occasional high suited hand in, that's just too unlikely (and while those hands are behind, for sure, they're not overwhelming underdogs even if they DO make the bad call). So he needed to ask himself, what do I gain by going all-in, versus making a reasonable raise and hoping to get a call from a weaker hand...say, a KJos. Long and short of it is he's wasting an opportunity to play a valuable hand for value. More importantly, he's just giving up control of the hand, risking his entire tournament on a bet that can only really be called down by a hand that probably has him beat coming out of the gate. Dumb, dumb play.
Old 02-16-05, 10:22 AM
Posts: n/a
Still a good all-in

We don't know the types of players at the table. We don't know the hands that had been played that session, nor the way the players had reacted to it. What we do know is that A-K got what he wanted: Excellent odds to double up. His all-in was called by K-J. A-K had a good feel for that hand for that table at that particular time. Kudos. Good all-in.

Any other day, any other table, his strategy might not have worked. But it did.
Old 02-16-05, 04:10 PM
Posts: n/a
the only way that AK allin was a good play is if he knows the guys he was in against can be counted on to make bad calls but even then i think its amateur. icemans right the only way anyone calls that allin is if they got a hand thats 50 50 or better against AK so the guy making the allin was almost guaranteeing that he was putting all his chips in with the worst hand and thats bad poker. if he knew something about the players thats one thing but if your saying that allin was a good play against two good players then i wish you played in my game cause id clean you out every time we played. thats a bush league allin and a wasted hand. im glad the guy got beat even though it was a bush league call that beat him. neither one of those guys can complain if they lost the hand cause they both made bad plays.
Old 02-16-05, 04:34 PM
Posts: n/a
News flash: This was a bush league game, not the final table at the WSOP. You have to play the players, more so than the cards.
Old 02-16-05, 05:12 PM
Posts: n/a
Did you even read the first post?

Originally Posted by Unregistered
What was he thinking? Pretty obvious: He went all-in on A-K and suckered a K-J to call. Any day of the week that is a good all-in. The fact that A-K got outdrawn is part of the game. Strategy wise the A-K player got what he wanted.
No, seriously.
Old 02-16-05, 05:21 PM
Posts: n/a
Do you know...

the difference between strategy and luck? Seriously.

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