Can someone make a long-term career at online poker?

[HPG ADMIN]

Over the past couple of years there are tons of players coming in and making $20/hour playing online poker. This is a result of 2 main trends I think: 1. the huge bonuses given away by poker sites trying to be competitive and 2. all the new fish brought in by the WPT and WSOP on TV. There is no doubt that the very best players will always have a level of skill which will allow them to be paid well. But what about the 2nd tier players - the ones who play a mechanical Lee Jones style tight/aggressive game and just use nothing more than common sense to beat four $2/$4 games at once? Will these people still be making enough money to play pro 5 years from now or will the games dry up? Will bonuses dry up as the online poker industry suffers a shakeout from it's huge growth? A few years from now will cash games basically be a bunch of poker book-educated tight players just all breaking even or will there always be fish?

[Unregistered]

Poker is about 3/4 luck, so if you are like me and all you see is bad beats, then you can't really make a living through poker.

[HPG ADMIN]

if you play 1,000 hours of limit poker you think it is 75% luck?

[Unregistered]

.....

[Unregistered]

I started playing September '03 for real money when I won $70, then $100 at two different freeroll tourneys.

Since then, with bonuses, I've managed to build my bankroll up to $16,028 without a single deposit.

By playing tight aggressive with premium hands in hold 'em limit games, I started at .50/1, and now play mostly $2/$4 games - 4 tables at a time.

I don't think these sites are rigged, because if you're a good player (patient and disciplined) in the long run you will win. And if I ever feel uncomfortable at a site, I stop playing there and go where the money is. Also, if you know which hands to play, in which position and know when to give up you hand, I think the odds remain in your favor and can't imagine that I've won consistently because I am "lucky."

I'd say about half of my money came from bonuses though... and I'd recommend people try other sites for this reason.

[paynegod]

I started playing poker having never played the game in November of 2003 because of the WPT and immediately was hooked with online poker. My initial bankroll on party poker was 250 dollars with a 20% deposit bonus. After losing my initial stake I reloaded with another 250 and no bonus and have since made over $98000.00 winning consistently on online poker.

I won the majority of my money winning two major multitable (43k and 24k) tournaments and have since left nearly every internet site.

I have restarted my stack with a 200 deposit just this last week on Empire poker and have already built it to 2340.

I do not do this full time playing 2 or more games at once- I usually play one table at $25 or $50 no limit. Ive become extremely adept at reading people online.

In real life I have won over $4900 playing in local games and tournaments at a local indian casino

[Cantbeatluck]

And your still a fish sucka :) Wanna play some plo8 kid

[FATBOYSLIM]

Ive turned $200 into $7,000 in 5 months playing cople hours a day online. I'm happy but a living no.

[Unregistered]

I started with limit poker on planet and lost, then to ultimate bet sit and go tourmneys and won a little. I finally figured out the key to the game is cost per hand and average pot size. In 50$ no limit the cost per hand is 7.5 cents and the average pot 10 to 12 $. If not heads up the net is about 8$. This means winning one average pot will allow you to see 100 flops.

To win you must wait for hands you have an overlay just like the casino takes any bet because they always have an overlay. With a hand like AQ and an earlier player raiises 2$, the usual response is to say i have a good hand lets see the flop .
The reality is the opposite: if the raiser is ak, you are a huge dog, if a pair (jj or lower) you are only 50%,if AA,KKor QQ you are an underdog. The hand goes in the muck and you are 7 cents poorer. There is a lot more to it but the key is determing if you have an overlay and in no limit poker this is easier than in limit.

If interisted I can amply if reuested.
Jim Ainslie at Janet1@stn.net

[Unregistered]

im just new to online poker , i starter with a 25$ stake on ulltimate poker,got it up to 300, then blue it,learend my lesson! started with 25 again ,3 months later i got 2500,not great but easy money for sure,i plan to get better hit more sights,pick up bonuses+eventually go full time,why go to work in a boring job waisting ur life when u can make a living doing something u love!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps:question ultimate bet has a lot of bad beats, it seems to be all about the rake,all sights the same?can anyone recomend the best sights?................... tony THEPIRAT from ireland.............please contact me at tonyrafter@eircom.net , all advice is welcome!!!!!!!

[Unregistered]

poker does involve luck BUT...

successful poker is about always making decisions where the odds favor you.
So if you are disciplined and have any sort of skill outside the mechanics of the game (reading people etc).
Then you can always make money in the RIGHT game.

If youre not winning in your current game then do two things:

1 - change to a game that you do regularly beat.
2- study and practice to improve to a point where you can move up stakes.

The only losers in poker play at games they shouldnt be in.

Thank the lord some people egos outweigh their wallets.

[Nazka]

well ive never played real money on the net but i play on tigergaming.net and u start with1000$ and after 1 month im up to 200,000$ so.. itspossible if u can play

[HPG ADMIN]

do people here think the limit games are getting tighter or not?

[Locohombre]

do people here think the limit games are getting tighter or not?

Well, of course...How else can you win consistently at limit games. You need luck or you will lose. The trick is how to make the most profit when you do get the cards. You have to be very patient in that sort of game.

[Unregistered]

I see some of these comments as interesting...noone is going to post here saying how much money they have lost. First of all, unless you keep a record of all online and offline play you will never reallly know if your up or down. I know that each site keeps records but i guarantee everyone has taken a loss in some way. If you havent, you have not played enough. Otherwise, run dont walk, to the WSOP and I will see you on TV. Everyone who posts says that I won here and I won there, guess what? someone is losing big and it is not the everyday joe that logs on and says why not deposit $50 and see what happens. These guys lose once and uninstall the software. Sure there are some people that make a living with onlinepoker but it is very rare and sometimes not legit(aka party poker million that was proven to be rigged). Its very easy to forget those times where you lose and exagerate the times that you win. As far as tournament play online, it is fun and I recommend it. Can someone play in low limit and make money.....yes. In the long run though its not likely. Not because of the money but because once someone starts winning they think, that they are better than the hand that is dealt to them. Higher limit is different. If you are a by the book player and can lay down good hands it is possible. There is nothing better for an online player to play in some live tournaments because there is a huge difference. When i play in las vegas I am amazed at the amount of tourists who play, and how easy it is to win. When I play in my hometown, people who play are people who know poker and its much more difficult. This is just my view as I know that people who respond will believe how that they are great solid players that win............

[Unregistered]

I see some of these comments as interesting...noone is going to post here saying how much money they have lost. First of all, unless you keep a record of all online and offline play you will never reallly know if your up or down. I know that each site keeps records but i guarantee everyone has taken a loss in some way. If you havent, you have not played enough. Otherwise, run dont walk, to the WSOP and I will see you on TV. Everyone who posts says that I won here and I won there, guess what? someone is losing big and it is not the everyday joe that logs on and says why not deposit $50 and see what happens. These guys lose once and uninstall the software. Sure there are some people that make a living with onlinepoker but it is very rare and sometimes not legit(aka party poker million that was proven to be rigged). Its very easy to forget those times where you lose and exagerate the times that you win. As far as tournament play online, it is fun and I recommend it. Can someone play in low limit and make money.....yes. In the long run though its not likely. Not because of the money but because once someone starts winning they think, that they are better than the hand that is dealt to them. Higher limit is different. If you are a by the book player and can lay down good hands it is possible. There is nothing better for an online player to play in some live tournaments because there is a huge difference. When i play in las vegas I am amazed at the amount of tourists who play, and how easy it is to win. When I play in my hometown, people who play are people who know poker and its much more difficult. This is just my view as I know that people who respond will believe how that they are great solid players that win............

very well put..i was just thinking the same thing before i read your post. especially the one guy who said he could "read online players" ... 98% of people playing poker, DO NOT know how to read someone, and when people think they do, they are way off base!

[Locohombre]

I have taken some totally bs bad beats online. Also, the quality of play is either too terrible to read or the players are too good to read. I can read people in real games after a while. I am right about 3/4 of the time when I do that. I don't see how you can really read people online accurately though. On top of that, even if you do, you will get the bad beat reguardless. You have to be very lucky to make an entire living from poker. Most of the guys on the WSOP and WPT were either extremely rich or totally broke before and during play anyway.

[Unregistered]

It is possible to make a living at online poker!
The question is what kind of living, you would need to have the Right playing skills as well as money management skills to do it.
At small stakes it is possible by playing 4 tables at once, someone that is a good SIT& go player can make $4 a tourney on average... 4 at once =$16. It only take about an hour for these so thats $16 an hour.... Thats not a bad living... but its not great either... The question about it lasting though is alittle debatable. I think the game will always be good at the low limits... So as long as you know what your doing you can get by. I say in 5-10 years It wont be possible to make a large amount at the higher levels, but lower levels will always be good.

[Unregistered Glassmaster]

I started playing poker online about a year ago. So far it has been trial and error. In many cases I've seen people play cards they "shouldnt" and take down fat pots. I've made a point of paying attention to those type of players and capitolizing on their stupidity when sitting on nut hands. It's still very tough for me to lay down when I should but I'm getting better at it. At this point I'm down about $400 but was down quite a bit more about 6 months ago. I've spent a lot more money on other vices in my life. I don't know if I would ever be able to make a living at poker but that hardly means it cant be done. It's a nice daydream for me, Good luck to all of you. send the fish my way.

[Unregistered]

yes you can and i do il tell you how and where. party poker under step tourneys you buy in at 11 and work your way up to the 5 step which pays out 4900$ all you have to do is sit and wait til a hand. the first step is the hardest since people only pay 12 to play it. here s a rundown
step 1 11+1 buy in top 2 advance to step2
step 2 50+5 buy in or tix top 3 move on to step 3
step 3 200+10 buy in or tix top 3 advance
step 4 500+ 25 buy in or tix top 4 advance(peice of cake just play smart)
step 5 1000 buy in or tix top 4 posotions pay out
1st 4900
2nd 3500
3rd 2500
4th 1900
this is a peice of cake way to make alot of profit if your smart and let the idiots play out. ive made about 40k in 2 months and i have only played about 85 games. you do the math. you will constantly see the same 5-10 players at the final table and these guys are good, they are making about 20 k a day playing smart.
my email is plasticcookies2000@yahoo.com if you have any questions i would love to answer them for you. you Can and Will turn your 12 buy in into 4900 if you are confident and smart. thought i would let you know about this easy way-i cant beleive more people are not doing it, you will be surprised how few players even try. i suggest putting 200$ into it and only ,and i mean ONLY play small tourneys and the steps.when you win the 4900 if you do dont go playing in big games that 4900 only means that you have that many more tries to make it again. it might take you 10 more tries but thats still a profit of 3900. good luck see ya there Brian

[jeffwoohexenii]

id like to see some income statements that prove so.

as for me, ive lost more than 2k online, at my worst i was down 3k one day and made it up in 25 minutes. im the person the online people make the money off of i guess.

In real games, I do alright, im not the best by any means, i can read some people, other people are just idiots worse than me, sometimes i get string of luck.

the issue i see with online gambling is how lucrative it seems. in my mind when i started playing (and have since stopped) it was that I was better than 50% of the people because i was up a couple hundred a few days after i started. Its been only after about a year of losing bit by bit, that ive realized i have no business being online and that i consistently do well in real games.

i guess the other question i have is, who WANTS to do poker for a living? it doesnt seem like its that glamorous when you look at the primetime players, when you compare it to actors, athletes, and CEOS.

[SHAMUS TDT]

In Gordon's book "The Real Deal" he says that you can play poker professionaly if you play 30/60 hold 'em and rake 1 big blind an hour. 5 days a week 8 hours a day and you'll pull down roughly 60K a year. Sounds simple enough.......GOOD LUCK!! I'll keep my job and play on the side thanks.

[Ryan]

I will be completely honest. I lost about 3 grand after being up a grand two years ago on party poker.
I then a year later, lost about 2 grand on planet poker.
This year, I bought in for 100 bucks to paradise poker, and now have cashed out over five thousand, I am finally ahead.
But it has to do with the site and your play.
I went back to planet poker, and have lost a few hundred again, all the while, still winning on paradise.

I think planet poker is rigged a bit, not rigged, but it's so small a lot of the players are using AOL to cheat and compare hands. This is the truth. The other sites are big enough to avoid the collusion.

[Unregistered]

Truth be told almost 90 % of poker players say they are either winners, just someone who plays recreationally and doesnt care about the money, or that at the end of it all ( day, session, year, etc etc.. ) they end up even .. sorry , but thats not true .. almost 85% percent of all amateurs that play poker are losers. they lose consistently and hope for that one big payout, the WSOP or a great run of cards at a WPT event they can hardly even buy in for. to make it big is a huge investment of time and a lot of patience. to quote Dave Scharf of Canadian Poker Player Magazine " poker is not nascar ..things dont happen fast " as for online, beware of the automaticness of pushing a button and having money deducted from ur Credit card. It can sometimes not feel as real as sitting across from someone and playing a live game. To play poker online for hours at a time can be draining and all that to win 2 BB's an hour ?? it can be done but is it really worth doing ? i think ill keep my job thanks and ill meet the boys on wednesday night like i have for the past 6 years, well talk about the bad beats and make fun of each others play and most of all ... always question how good we really and wonder if well ever get to play in the big one ?
Good luck on the tables and may all ur pots be huge

[CAPPARELLA]

I guess if you are an introvert you could make a living of it, I myself like poker because of playing the people, i do however enjoy online just to sharpen the skills and keep the game clear in my head. I guess you'd be your own boss though which definitely has its advantages...

[HPG ADMIN]

<<all that to win 2 BB's an hour ?? it can be done but is it really worth doing ? >>

I agree with your post. But 2BB/hour is $32/hour if you are playing 4 tables of $2/$4 and $16/hour at $1/$2. For people out there grinding it out at a entry level job I think it can have appeal. Most of the people who tell you "I wouldn't sit home and play poker" probably hve jobs they like - but most people don't in my opinion.

[Locohombre]

Very well put, I couldn't agree more.

Truth be told almost 90 % of poker players say they are either winners, just someone who plays recreationally and doesnt care about the money, or that at the end of it all ( day, session, year, etc etc.. ) they end up even .. sorry , but thats not true .. almost 85% percent of all amateurs that play poker are losers. they lose consistently and hope for that one big payout, the WSOP or a great run of cards at a WPT event they can hardly even buy in for. to make it big is a huge investment of time and a lot of patience. to quote Dave Scharf of Canadian Poker Player Magazine " poker is not nascar ..things dont happen fast " as for online, beware of the automaticness of pushing a button and having money deducted from ur Credit card. It can sometimes not feel as real as sitting across from someone and playing a live game. To play poker online for hours at a time can be draining and all that to win 2 BB's an hour ?? it can be done but is it really worth doing ? i think ill keep my job thanks and ill meet the boys on wednesday night like i have for the past 6 years, well talk about the bad beats and make fun of each others play and most of all ... always question how good we really and wonder if well ever get to play in the big one ?
Good luck on the tables and may all ur pots be huge

[Unregistered]

It is very possible to make a living playing online poker. I am one of the most honest poker players you will ever meet. If you are considering playing online poker for the first time, or considering getting serious about online poker, let me tell you this...
From someone who has been playing all types of poker for nearly 20 years, It cost me about 4k to learn how to play online poker. That's right, I lost about 4k before I started winning. Did I have days where I won $1500? Oh yeah, I had hours where I won that much, but overall it cost me 4k to learn how to play online poker. I stopped playing for about 3 months after dropping 4k online. I had to take a moment to reflect what I had done so differently than live play? The answer: Nothing. You have to play incredibly tight in order to make a living playing online poker. Also, you have to track your winnings every single day (whether you are a live player or an online player). I do that. Keep in mind, playing online, there will be times when you are running hot. You may make 3k in one day, you may also lose 3k in one day (both of those things have happened to me, & I don't consider myself that high of a stakes player, max I ever played online was $15/30). Max I ever played in NL was $5/10 NL. You must be patient though, patient & always play tight. In live games I am a much looser player than I am online. That is b/c it makes it much more difficult for people to read me (in live games). Online, there is no read, you either have it, or you don't. End of story.

[Unregistered]

ok...let me take a stab at it even tho i have limited knowledge of the subject...

let's say a decent living is $60k/yr, before taxes. not a whole lot, but a decent living. that works out to $5k/month, also before taxes.

we all know that poker is a feast/famine enterprise, so some months you might only make $1 or $2k (hope you've put your $$ away for these months), while others u may hit a hot streak and win a tourney or two and bring in $10k or so.

how would u go about making the $5k consistently? the beauty of internet gambling is that you can mix your game between cash games and tournaments without the added expense of gas or airfare/hotel. not to mention that you can play as often and for whatever stakes you have the bankroll to fund. with that in mind, i would want to go into each month with at least $1000 available for buy-ins and tournament entry fees available (an additional $12k annually, which would either bring your annual gross to $72k, or reduce it to $48k, depending on how u look at it).

another great part of internet gambling is the opportunity to play free sattelites to qualify for live games, which are great chances to pick up big money.

that's all my brain and i feel like thinking on this subject right now, i'd love to see some more discussion along these lines as opposed to, "i made $100,000 with a $5 investment". there has to be a practical way to approach being a "professional" online player, and i'm curious as to what that is.

[Unregistered]

id say probably not as there seems to be alot more badbeats online than in home games, i feel its slightly fixed, but i would say offline games you probably could live off, casino and home games.

[Unregistered]

Poker is about 3/4 luck, so if you are like me and all you see is bad beats, then you can't really make a living through poker.
Maybe hes not like you maybe he doesn't suck, theirs no way that you have that horrible of luck and as for your question YES , for example Chris Moneymaker, and a couple of others but i don't suggest it

[Iceman37]

Of course one can make a living playing online poker. Just like one can make a living betting horses or football games. The question isn't whether one can...it's whether YOU can.

The answer is no, for the vast majority of people. They don't have the patience for it, they don't have the guts for it, they don't have the bankroll for it, or they just don't have the smarts for it. Most importantly, they won't do the work that's necessary to make it worthwhile.

But all this crap about "bad luck" this and "bad beat" that...jesus. Some of these people need to play Craps or something. They're obviously dependant upon the mystical forces of life. Why not just pray that money winds up in your pockets?

This game of ours is a game of SKILL and a game of MATH. You had better have a very good grasp of both or you're going to get beat...online, in a casino, or wherever. And you'd better be able to not only deal with the bad beats (which don't happen online anymore than in a brick and mortar) but have them anticipated and planned for. Fluctuations happen...but the MATH always wins out in the end, so long as you're in when you have the best of it, and out when you don't. Knowing when you're in which position is the skill part.

To win online well enough to "make a living at it" you had better start with a very good bankroll, and you'd better know how to bonus-whore. You'd better play the right games at the right stakes, and you'd better be able to do it without a lot of distraction (cause that's the number one killer of your abilities online...the inability to focus and pay attention). And the one thing I positively would get out of your head is the idea of playing four tables at a time. If I am going to call myself a professional, I'm going to play like one. You have enough to do on ONE table...playing four at a time is suicidal. You might get away with it for a while, but you're killing your game. You'll be just another fish eventually, when you get up against someone who IS paying attention. It might take you the other three tables just to make up for what you're dumping stupidly on the one...money you wouldn't be dumping at all if you were just watching what's going on.

And as for these dolts who are claiming "yeah, I played online for just three days, started with fourteen dollars and half a stick of gum, and now I'm up $85,000..." These people aren't lucky, and they aren't talented. They're liars. I guarantee they're lying to themselves, more than anyone. I'll put my poker skills up against anyone I haven't seen on television (and several of those I have)...and I can parlay a pittance into a nice bankroll, too...but these claims of multiple-thousand-dollar victories after starting with next to nothing are a crock of horsehockey. Stu Ungar and Doyle Brunson COMBINED couldn't pull that off. Given YEARS, yes. In a month or two? Bullchips.

[Unregistered]

First Chris Moneymaker does not now nor has he ever made a living at online poker. In fact he has lost thousands.
If you are looking at online poker as a career picking the right game is crucial. Low limit games are diffucult to crack because the rake in these games is generally much more than in B&M simply because of the time it takes to play hands. Professionals (specifically...Dutch Boyd) have said that the rake in online poker is way out of line.
If you want to make a living at online poker....host your own site.

[Unregistered]

Why do people always tend to take a thing that they truly love to spend time doing, and choke the life out of it by trying to turn it into a job?

[collegekid1208]

i have a friend who plays poker online and basically jumps around from site to site finding bonuses and stuff like that and he has profited alot from that....so i guess if your good enough and have the time and MONEY the it can be a part time thing because i dont thing that you can be very sucessfull

[Jansports]

Of course one can make a living playing online poker. Just like one can make a living betting horses or football games. The question isn't whether one can...it's whether YOU can.

The answer is no, for the vast majority of people. They don't have the patience for it, they don't have the guts for it, they don't have the bankroll for it, or they just don't have the smarts for it. Most importantly, they won't do the work that's necessary to make it worthwhile.

But all this crap about "bad luck" this and "bad beat" that...jesus. Some of these people need to play Craps or something. They're obviously dependant upon the mystical forces of life. Why not just pray that money winds up in your pockets?

This game of ours is a game of SKILL and a game of MATH. You had better have a very good grasp of both or you're going to get beat...online, in a casino, or wherever. And you'd better be able to not only deal with the bad beats (which don't happen online anymore than in a brick and mortar) but have them anticipated and planned for. Fluctuations happen...but the MATH always wins out in the end, so long as you're in when you have the best of it, and out when you don't. Knowing when you're in which position is the skill part.

To win online well enough to "make a living at it" you had better start with a very good bankroll, and you'd better know how to bonus-whore. You'd better play the right games at the right stakes, and you'd better be able to do it without a lot of distraction (cause that's the number one killer of your abilities online...the inability to focus and pay attention). And the one thing I positively would get out of your head is the idea of playing four tables at a time. If I am going to call myself a professional, I'm going to play like one. You have enough to do on ONE table...playing four at a time is suicidal. You might get away with it for a while, but you're killing your game. You'll be just another fish eventually, when you get up against someone who IS paying attention. It might take you the other three tables just to make up for what you're dumping stupidly on the one...money you wouldn't be dumping at all if you were just watching what's going on.

And as for these dolts who are claiming "yeah, I played online for just three days, started with fourteen dollars and half a stick of gum, and now I'm up $85,000..." These people aren't lucky, and they aren't talented. They're liars. I guarantee they're lying to themselves, more than anyone. I'll put my poker skills up against anyone I haven't seen on television (and several of those I have)...and I can parlay a pittance into a nice bankroll, too...but these claims of multiple-thousand-dollar victories after starting with next to nothing are a crock of horsehockey. Stu Ungar and Doyle Brunson COMBINED couldn't pull that off. Given YEARS, yes. In a month or two? Bullchips.

Quoted for truth.

Personally I Have Only been playing Online for literally 3 days (Brick and mortar longer hosue games since forever) And In Honesty Im Up about 3 bucks. Thats it. Thats a Dollar a day playing $.02/$.04 Limit Hold 'Em. Over 600 hands played now and im only up 150 small blinds. Granted playing higherstakes there would be more money but differant players. I dont play Online for money I play for practice, Only intrested in making enough to keeo playing online.

For now. I Feel sometime in the future I might consider online play as a way to make money, not a sole source of income but as much as a part time job would bring in, maybe more. This seriously isn't going to happen over night. I Still need to learn alot about the differance in Online play(the maniacs sheesh) Everyone can always improve their game. My Bankroll is fairly weak(23 dollars whoo hoo) I Havent done much bonus hunting or grinding. ect. Its possible perhaps even likely I will be at one point but its not so after 3 days.

[5thStreetPokerParties.com]

(aka party poker million that was proven to be rigged)

I keep seeing references to the Party Poker Million being rigged. What is the story with this?

[collegekid1208]

i got a questions is it possible for your poker winings online to not count towards ur taxes...like do you have to file them or is it possible to not do it

[Unregistered]

Yes, you *can* make a living. Whatever you choose to do -- backgammon, poker, golf, dart, basketball, bonds trading, or playing the sackpipes -- if you are among the best of the best you can *always* make a career of it.

Personally, I'm an intermediate player, haven't played for very long but at least I've done my homework and I'm playing fairly tight and low limit. So far I'm happy to break even. However, even if I turn out to win consistently over, say, the next half year, I would not want to quit my job and turn it into a career, for the following reasons:

1) With poker as a single source of income, I would be very vulnerable to the occasional draughts in income. If the rent is at stake, maybe that would impair my judgement. In any case, I would need a very large bankroll to hedge myself.
2) There is not always a correct answer in poker. How would I know for absolutely sure that I haven't just been lucky for a while?
3) It's a lonely job.
4) Not the noblest of reasons -- but it's easier to hide any poker incomes from our local I.R.S. if I have a real source of income. I live in a country where we pay aboub 50 (yessir, fifty!) percent in income tax

Also, I do have a decent job (software developer). I actually make good money, get good food and a certain prestige from it. There are good days and bad days but all in all I'd probably miss it.

[Unregistered]

I think it is quite possible to make a career of online poker, But you have to invest the time. I work full time and am not willing to give up my guarenteed pay check for a what if or maybe. After all its still a gamble.

[collegekid1208]

thats like i said b4 it would be a great part time thing that is if your good at it of course :cool:

[Doc7]

Responding to turning a few bucks into 10s of thousands in months?

Chris 'Jesus' Ferguson turned 1 DOLLAR into 20,000 dollars in 6 months online, to practice...supposedly he never risked more than 10% of his bankroll to do it.

[HPG ADMIN]

"Chris 'Jesus' Ferguson turned 1 DOLLAR into 20,000 dollars in 6 months online, to practice...supposedly he never risked more than 10% of his bankroll to do it."

where did you read this?

[Doc7]

Aces and Kings, by Michael Kaplan and Brad Reagan, page 206.

[Unregistered]

The question is, can you make your living playing in ONLINE poker, and will you be able to in the future..

People who play correctly but not necessarily amazingly, the booksmart folks, have been making money, sometimes enough to live, in B&M games for a long time, long before the recent "poker craze", so I think its a matter of comparing to this.

Bad differences: If you rely on "reading" people, or selecting your game by the appearance and demeanor of your opponents, you will have a hard time. Some use internet communication to play as a team, comparing hands as such. Discipline is harder when you arent gaining or losing tangible assets.

Good differences: If you're a smart, tight player that makes money slowly but surely, you can increase your per hour winnings by playing multiple tables. People who dont have the confidence to play in B&M games because they suck, may play online, adding to the fish population.

In conclusion: Overall, I think its something to keep our eyes on for the next little while, but not to depend on or convert to, by any means. Its a new way to do an old thing, with some odd twists. Personally, I enjoy playing online but will never play for real money when I'm not in the same room as my direct opponents. As far as things ending when the "poker craze" washes over? Well, it may seperate the medium-good players from the good-good players, but there will always be fish, imho.

[Unregistered]

Great question sir/madam moderator...

I guess we probably need to define "long-term career". For the sake of argument, I'm going to compare an online poker player to an employee that is in the workforce until retirement (55 years old for now but that age is increasing).

So do I think that someone can make a living playing poker online until retirement if they're in their early 20's now?

Yes I do...if and ONLY if 1 thing continues to happen for the next 30 to 35 years and another thing NEVER happens...for the next 30 to 35 years.

Before I get into these "things", I have to naturally assume that you are a solid, tight, aggressive player. You look for the easy games, you know how to get out of a bad game, you can admit when you're outclassed at the table and adjust your game or leave, you know how to lay it down when you're beat, you play the odds when they're clearly in your favor, you avoid the gray areas, you understand that your poker game extends beyond your current session...it's a life long event, you play within your bankroll, you track your play and are honest with yourself about how much you actually win and loose, you know bad beats will come and when they do you stay even keel and you're an expert at minimizing your loses while maximizing your wins.

That being said, what needs to CONTINUE happening for the next 30 to 35 years? New money and players coming to the game in droves, who think they TOO can make a living playing online poker or can just make some "extra" income. The main thing driving these new players to the game is the constant exposure they're currently seeing in the media and main stream. What are there like 8 or 9 poker events on cable TV every week? And didn't NBC (one of the big 3 networks) have poker along with a Heads-Up tournament? I live in a Texas city with a population of about 120,000 and 2 guys from our city won online events to qualify for the WSOP main event...it was the front page story in the newspaper ONLY because of the place that poker currently holds in the main stream. Both guys finished in the money and it made news on the local television station all because poker is the hot thing right now. I mean come on, I was in the grocery store on Friday and they were selling decent sets of poker chips in the potato chip isle (how's that for cross merchandising)!!! Anyone who's picked up a deck of cards now thinks "why not me?" and it's those people that the dedicated online player will make easy money on. Media and main stream exposure is the flame that lights the fuel (the fuel being the new players and new money). As long as the media and main stream flame stays hot, the online pro will do well. History proves that this won't continue though, especially for the next 30 years. It's like that new song on the radio and video music channels, they all play the hell out of it until people get tired of it, then it's onto the next song. Right now, poker is the new song and it's getting the hell played out of it right now...I don't think it can stand up to this for another 30 years. When it slows down, the media outlets will move onto the next big main stream thing (and there's always a next big thing) When this happens, the sharks will have to feed on each other to survive and even the best sharks will have a tough go at making a living online.

So what can NEVER happen for the next 30 to 35 years? Well everything has a life cycle and poker is at the height of that life cycle right now. This cycle will naturally (and gradually) decline over time but I've got to think that within the next 30 years something will happen to drastically accelerate the downward life cycle. It will probably be a major news outlet that will broadcast an expose that will shed an extremely unfavorable light on the online poker community. Why? Because the television ratings for that expose will be huge considering how popular online poker is right now. The underlying currents constantly talk about how cards are juiced and not as random and you would believe. If some reporter is able to prove this, have some interviews with insiders and so forth, that expose will signal the beginning of the end to online poker's life cycle. It doesn't matter that of the hundreds of online poker sites, the majority are square...if the media finds just one...the entire online poker community will be painted with the same negative brush. How quickly it spirals downward depends on how much the poker sites, in general, can withstand 20%-40% (or more) of it's players cashing out their accounts...I would bet most couldn't withstand that type of mass exodus. If this happens, sites will crash and burn left and right, leaving only the strongest sites to survive. But of course, as these sites crash and burn, they will create more stories of people who lost money because the site went dark...accelerating the downward cycle even faster.

So to sum it up...yes, I think a good player can make a long term career out of playing poker online provided there is new money and players constantly entering the game and as long as the whole house doesn't come crashing down because of a 60 Minutes expose on the "Fraud that is internet poker."...and this online poker utopia remains undisturbed for the next 30 to 35 years...but do you think that will really happen?

Again, great question sir/madam moderator...

Nate
"There's right, there's wrong and there's reality."

[Unregistered]

You have to play incredibly tight in order to make a living playing online poker.

Online, there is no read, you either have it, or you don't. End of story.

Well said, and very true. I think people put WAY too much stock in getting reads online. B&M Poker and Online Poker are two different animals. It's obvious that live games require more attention where online you can play 4-5 games at a clip and just play your best cards.

1. Play tight, always. Don't try and get cute.
2. Poker is cyclical. If you aren't prepared to lose as much as you win or have won, get out of the way. Go play checkers.

[Unregistered]

Ive turned $200 into $7,000 in 5 months playing cople hours a day online. I'm happy but a living no.


Not sure where your from but 7G's in 5 months is well over the norm full a full time job Guess all depends on where you live

[Unregistered]

I've been playing for years. I've read all the books, posted to 2+2 and the rest. I can say with humility that I am in the top 5% of low limit players online. Specifically, my pokertracker results prove this. If you are going to make claims like you can live off poker, you need to have this software.

To answer the question specifically I've played over 74,000 hands this year. I can average 1.75 big bets per 100 hands. I play mostly 5c/$1.00, but occasionally $1/$2. I play the most profitable games based on multiple criteria I won't divulge. This means I might be at 2 omaha high tables, one PL 08, and maybe a holdem that I'm on 'autopilot' on. When you add it up, I can make $7.00 an hour, hosestly. That's it. Month in, month out.

Most people at my level move up in limits, and maybe I'm a pussy. Maybe that is where the money is, but I doubt it. More raising preflop, less brutal mistakes by opponents. Clear value raises become marginal value raises. Pots move from 9-12 big bets to 6-8 consistantly. Anyone who thinks they can make 2bb/100 at one level, and 1.5 at the next highest level is lying to themselves and doesn't have pokertracker or anther means to keep honest track of thier results.

Books, TV, WSOP, and internet sites like this one exist because of the theme that you can make a living off of poker. "Think about that. Just study a little bit, play with patence, and you too can make a killing" Its just not the case.

[Unregistered]

Just an edit, that was supposed to be 47,000 hands

[gulfport@gmail.com]

Iceman hit the nail on the head.
Is it possible for a person to make a living at it?
Yes.
Is it possible for 'you' to do it?
That's something only you can answer.

Regarding 'a living', i'll tell ya what poker has done for me.
It gave me the downpayment to buy a great house on 30 acres in Northern Vermont in a town so picturesque that it looks like it's straight out of a Currier and Ives painting.
It allows me to go to this amazing place during the summer (where there is essentially no 'work' to speak of) and still keep myself fed, clothed, all the bills paid, the car gassed and have enough money to eat out at the local eatery a few nights a week.
It also pays my mortgage and my insurance, and I still have enough money to do a little antiquing on the side.

Am I making sick Brain Surgeon money doing it?
No.
Does poker afford me the lifestyle i've always wanted?
Hell yes, for damn sure, it does.
While it isn't my primary profession, online poker gives me three months 'vacation' every year and pays for every bit of it.
And instead of my winnings going towards nonsense or to pay to move up levels until it's all gone, it goes straight into a mortgage that is my retirement home.

[Unregistered]

Some of the replies in this post and many of the those in other posts show why online poker is profitable.

You don't have to be great, or even a particularly good player to make money (just better than enough of those players who know obsolutley nothing, to out-perform the rake). I started 3 months ago, keep records and don't play full-time. I have put zero cents (zilch, nothing) into poker accounts; started out from free-rolls and no-deposit cash bonuses. I have taken out over $300 (not a fortune, but from 0.5 / 1 no-limit games it's not a lucky streak either).

[Unregistered]

Did i say $0.5 / $1. Whoa! That's way out of my league. I meant $0.05 / $0.10. Stay patient win some lose some. Eventually a maniac turns up to pay me and I make a tidy and consitent profit.

[Unregistered]

Poker is about 3/4 luck, so if you are like me and all you see is bad beats, then you can't really make a living through poker.


Umm, I smell fish. If it was 75% luck then the top 20 have all of it!

What a dump answer.

[Unregistered]

Yes you can make a living on-line. Just get ten of your friends to join and you can tell each other what you have, Or could dump your chips to your buddy and split the winnings! Happens all day long and hard to find them!

[TOPS]

Here is your answer. Yes, someone can make a living at online poker, because I have been doing it for a year now. As far as a long term living, only time will tell, but so far so good.

I would also like to say that it wasn't always fun and games. The first year I played poker online I lost and LOST BIG! I was losing around 600/mo trying different ways to play, different sites, different limits, anything I could think of to try and find my niche in the world of online poker. I don't know if these people who are saying they are making this amount and that amount are telling the truth and I don't care. My first year playing online I lost over 7k and the beginning of this year I lost another 2k before I finally figured out what really worked. I have now profited 72k. 79k minus my 9k in previous losses. So yes it can be done, but it isn't all fun and games, it has to be treated as a job and time, effort, and WORK has to be put into it.

I hope this helps answer your question. If you want to do it for a living, be prepared to LOSE money until you figure out the ideal place, limits, and games are best suited for you.

[DeiYuo]

Yes yes they can and do make money online. Will games "dry up" in the next 5 years? That has always been a fear of players since I've known the game. It only gets better and better over time. Even if it did slow down in the next 5 years I doubt it will be as "slow" as it was 5 years ago before the internet WSOP, WPT donkeymaker boom.
Can people make a living online, yes. I know many players that have and do earn a nice living playing online. Most of their rakeback is more than the 4 tables of 2-4 hourly rate. They break even and make 2K+ from bonus and rake back incentive. They are the lucky ones with big bank rolls though. I do know many low rollers who grind out low limit games about 3-5 hours a day and bonus whore around sites. They love to play poker part-time, pick up some extra money and with the rest of their day persue other hobbies. The true grind is clocking in to a job M-F at 8:00am and having to listen to some dickhead boss tell you what and how to do things. Unless you are the boss :) .
I think most of the viewers here do not understand this concept as I assume most are all home game players. You are all right though that 85% players are loosers but love the game but remember... most people play for fun or the company of others and just a few purely for the money. As long as this stays true the games will ALWAYS be good. It is the very fortunate ones, and extremely rare, who play for fun, enjoy others company AND earn a profit who have it good. Those players who play purely for a profit end up being miserable grinders that you, like myself, despise.
Have a nice day.
DeiYuo

[hayds]

hey can someone tell me how i can earn bonus cash from playing freeroll games...and what sites i can goto, instead of having to deposit money...cheers

[miranda_ace]

Hello!

In response to the question "Can one make a living playing online poker?" -- I reluctantly have to admit that yes they can.

My boyfriend graduated with a Commerce degree concentrating in finance in April, and started playing online no limit texas hold em sit and go's as his career of choice. I was EXTREMELY skeptical at first....and for a long time, but now that it is almost a year, I can see that the skill to luck ratio is weighted heavily on skill; kinda like the song "..ya gotta know when to fold'em...". There are a lot of academic displines at play here; statistics, economics, finance, psychology, education, marketing, etc. that are only truly understood by the most educated and advanced players. And I feel that yes; one can make a living playing online poker.

BUT, I DO QUESTION THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE. I am a very understanding girlfriend, and I wonder if those people are able to "live" i.e. have girlfriends, wives, boyfriends, husbands, children, etc.....what about job security??? Applying for loans or mortgages??? Has anybody put any thought into this???????

Any response would be greatly appreciated.

[HPG ADMIN]

I think most professionls who are playing full time making 30k, 60k, or whatever will get sick of it after 2-3 years. I don't think a girlfriend has to worry.

As far as job security goes, I think it has a lot to do with whatever their personal risk tolerance is.

[TakeYourBankroll]

I really feel sorry for some of you guys. You claim to make money at this and brag a lot about it. Ever consider there are people out there who do this for fun, make money, and are also accomplished in life? Why would you waste away in some casino when you could probably make more if you dedicated yourself to a REAL JOB?

I take pride in knowing I have the best education at the table, have a real job, and respected. I personally think some people in casinos are dirt bags, especially the pros that sit there and make less than me.

I tried poker in all forms. To me, only some tourneys are fun (most of them actually), but cash games are crap if you're around the wrong people (like a weekday afternoon, losers for the most part). I ruined some pro the other day like you wouldn't believe and then left. It was funny, actually. He does this for a living and I ruined him that day, not the first time either.

My advice: get an education, get a real job, and then play poker. It’s a great story for some college dropout to win a major poker tournament, but there were 100 suckers before him who didn't get as lucky. I heard Eli Elezra say the same thing the other day and I was proud of him for saying it. Look at him, a very successful businessman. He is far more accomplished that just about any pro in life. That is what you should aspire to be, not some idiot who dropped out of college and brags about it. THEY ALL REGRET IT, BELIEVE ME. They wish they had the education, but they don’t. Everyone wishes they had one, but FEW WORK FOR IT.

Also keep in mind a lot of this is luck. Long-term, not really, I can attest to that, as I don't lose often. My point is the following. Do something where you can outwork real, honest, hard working people. Do poker on the side. If you get lucky or are simply super talented, then try to make a living. I think most poker pros think their life is crap. Don't let 20 name pros fool you. I think the vast majority of them have a garbage life. I wouldn't want it I know that. Just look at their ring finger, hardly anyone is married. Sounds like a crappy life to me.

Go get an education and then play poker. That is for all the 16-20 year olds. I guarantee you it feels 100 times better kicking ass in academics (you prove your talent and ability that way, zero luck) and business. Then, go play a poker games a ruin some pros. That is what I do!

I want to play WPT and WSOP and will in a couple years (after grad school), but I promise you I will probably be the most accomplished person at the table outside of poker, or close to it. That is when life gets fun, beating people up in various arenas (academics, sports, poker, whatever).

Also, no one cares about your stupid home games or online stuff. Go beat pros in a casino or zip it. I already got my win at the Bicycle Casino and more will come. But keep in mind, that means zero. Kicking ass in life is what counts.

Go get an education youngins or you will amount to nothing. Mark my words.

[Chairman_LMAO]

I agree with a lot of what this guy is saying - but doesn't he sound like a complete douche?

[HPG ADMIN]

No, I think it's nice to have someone tell it like it is. The losers always complain and find scapegoats because the losers don't realize they are losers.

[boraborabob]

Lot of bull going around.............

With all the young kids playing with mom and dad's money at best you will survive to a 60/40 bet a lot of times. And that assumes you are always ahead.

Then wipe out the 10-12% rake. Another few percent for the cost of money on your credit card. Or deposit fee from your bank. Of value of money if you had invested it in Apple stock instead?

Take out another small percentage for the power failure, internet problems, computer problems, etc.

There is a lot of math to really be considered, and if you take the time you will eventually come to the conclusion that you have win closer to 85% of the time vrs 51% to come out ahead. That's very tough to do.

All before you consider luck, cost of bad streaks, etc.

Play for fun, the experience, but when your buddy or anybody here tells you he's winning on a consistent basis, you know the real truth.

It's basically very cheap entertainment, about it.

[buck22]

What you're saying borborabob is a great rule of thumb for the masses, because poker is designed for the masses to lose, so assuming the game is impossible to grind a career from would save alot of people money and time, and appreciating the game as just entertainment is what I hope the majority of poker players do. I recommend this view to anyone, however, I'd recommend the bible to people wanting to improve their life, doesn't mean I believe in God.

It IS possible to grind a career but it rely's on many factors, which makes it extremely unlikely a player will succeed:
1.Bankroll management
2.Never tilting
3.Putting enough time and thought in that you dominate the stakes you play.
4.You can find the right games to play in.
5.You always have 6 months bills worth of money saved.
6.A personality that has courage, self-control, intelligence, and patience.
7.All the things ive forgotten and missed out.

To say the game is unbeatable for the reasons you've stated is ignorant and wrong, and is proved wrong by the deserving few who do very well in the game.

I will use my game as an example and put it through your list of bullsh**:

(all my winnings)-(losing hands)-(bad beats)-(rake)-(disconnection)=

8.2 BB/100
27.5% ROI

Over 100,000 hands luck and bad beats don't even come into it, again this ignorance of how the game works leads me to believe that you bought a few poker books and played for a year thinking you would one day be a big winner, it came crashing down, YOU spent you mum n dads money, and you want every one to agree that it's the games fault you lost, an that nothing you could do would change that....WRONG!

[buck22]

There is so much self-invloved, ignorant views from people who have been succesful in their careers putting pro poker players down, and they don't even realise they are playing the same game and just got lucky in their lives, business and careers. You are quick to point out that a handful of poker players have great success whilst the majority of players are miserable with what they do, sounds an awful lot like peoples working life though doesn't it. I can easily say 'don't be fooled by the Sir Alan Sugars the average wage is $33,000 and your income and life is probably gonna suck' but that would be ignoring the fact that the successful businessmen that have it good had the intelligence, education, self-motivation and business sense to succeed, same as poker pro's.

It's the same game, different location. People who are smart and work hard at their careers or poker games become very successful.

Your post contains so many holes I dont know where to start, and am 100% that you work hard, get paid well, then donk it off to poker players in the casinos, so sure i'll take u up on a game online any time u like. Now, to where to start......

Zero luck in business? LOL!! There is luck in business but making the right decisions eradicates this, SAME AS POKER!

Eli Elezra made money in business, but if you think he's a good example of a winning player you're very wrong. I'd be very surprised if he's up in poker.

Whilst you're sitting at the table taking pride that you worked hard, and are more succeful than the bums at the poker table, they are sitting there thanking god that hard working fools like you give their money away whilst they play a game they enjoy, yes, they are judging you too!

Don't get me wrong, i have great respect for people that have careers they like and get paid well for it, but I also respect the poker players who play a game they love that they worked hard at, and get paid handsomel for it. Hope you can pull your head out your ar** one day and see that alot of people just arent gonna be successful whatever they do, and that theres happy, miserable, poor, rich, successful, failures in all careers, including the poker pro.