Cake and Cereus

I was playing some rush poker on full tilt... deposited $60 and ran it up $440 playing conservative, making big lay downs etc... then like a light switch my luck ,ahem.. I mean rng, changed in a heart beat.. I lost set after set to straights, flushes and higher sets... lost 2 prs to river sets and straights.. the funny thing is that all the people and hands I was losing to were usually always on all ins, and im not talking pre-flop shoves.... it got so sickening that i logged off of full tilt when i was dealt kk, thats right I didnt even play the hand, I just closed out full tilt while i still had kk... and you might ask why I did that???? well lets just say that I was zero for about 9 with kk, losing huge pots on river... sickening just sickening.... its so obvious that the cash ring games are so obviously rigged with the programmed downswings... fucking hilarious....

But...that's poker isn't it? Luck affected swings and streaks, up and down, but if you play well it balances out in your favour. If you kept winning when ur meant to, winrates would be 120BB/100+ but it's not the case, a good winrate is 6BB/100.

Don't you see the very fact that you ran $60-$440 and then it brought you back in line means it ISN'T rigged, you're not meant to win $420 in a few hours, the odds averaged out, thats all. You'd be damn good to be getting $5/hour at nl50 rush poker.

Im not sticking up for Fulltilt, just sharing my experience of odds, streaks and how to understand them, sick f***ing game but the best in the world.

buck22,

Im not gonna argue my point... your gonna believe what you want to believe and Im gonna believe what Im gonna believe based on my personal playing history on what i believe is a majorly rigged site..

but just a few things in my observations.. the up and down swings aren't natural on the Full Rigged site... Its amazing that when i go play in Atlantic City for 2 or 3 days at the 5/10nl table i will very rarely see 2 or 3 big made hands at showdown where as on full rigged every other hand is a showdown with multiple made hands.

Also, why is that every single nl table i play at on full rigged there is constant action and limping on every single hand but when i am dealt AA or KK in 7th spot through the cut off everyone constantly folds and there is never any action.... ever.....

tournament play on full rigged is even more comical... Small stacks never have a chance... continually sucked out by the bigger stacks...

oh forget it, im so tired of all the bs I see on full rigged.. obviously if you are doing good on that site than by all means continue playing but I for one can finally say I am done with Full Rigged and its cousin Joker Stars forever....

ye screw em, close my account and won't give me rakeback, trash the sites by all means

took a couple months off and came back a couple weeks ago playing small sit n gos and finished in the money 9/14 times finishing 1st 5 times and 2nd 3 times 3rd 1 time. I was playing well and surprised that all my hands were holding up. i didnt have a bad beat in any of those games. full tilt was making me happy so i wouldnt withdraw all my money again. and then the bad beats started. have qq flop q33 guy shoves with ak comes k k runner. my AA is all in vs 33 and AJc on flop 3 comes then AJ makes flush and im out of a tournament. open shoves of j10 hit 2 pair to beat my kk it just keeps coming. the donkey plays are rewarded because those players have to redeposit often because of their play but the site has to make them think they have a chance so it gives them some wins to keep them playing. sick

Found a great post on twoplustwo from 'Lego05' that puts quite a hole in the 'rigging the cards for action' debate, here it is:



Rake is capped ... usually rake is like 5% with a max of like $3. Say we're playing with $100 stacks at a .5/$1 table. Each player puts in $30 so a pot of $60. 5% of $60 is $3 so $3 is the rake but that's it ... rake is now maxxed out. Each player has $70 left but if each player puts that $70 in the pot no new rake is collected on that $140 ... still just $3 rake.

So pot stays at $60 site collects $3 rake and game continues and more rake is collected ....... players go all-in for last $70 dollars and site collects $3 rake and one player loses all money and game is over and no more rake is collected.

If you were the site which would you prefer?




As you can see for poker sites to maximize their profits they need players to have money and keep playing. For them to maximize profits they want lots of medium sized pots and lots of split pots and would most likely rather err from medium sized pots toward smaller pots rather than larger pots so players don't get wiped out and the games can keep going and they can keep collecting.

Yet for some reason nearly every single rigged theory has the idea that sites give setup hands or cause huge beats or something with the goal toward inflating the size of the pot. In reality making the pots bigger is not what the sites want to do ... it is near the opposite of what they want to do.


If I decided to rig a poker site to increase rake at that site I would rig it to create as many medium sized pots as I could (TPWK hands vs. TPGK or some second pairs) and I would err toward smaller pots ..... I would also rig for a lot of split pots as that is pure gold ..... the site collects all the rake and each player gets their money back (minus the rake of course) and they keep playing with basically the same amount they had before.

When you go onto full tilt poker most of the players are playing at the micro limits, not the 1 and 2 dollar tables. The rake is almost never capped at those tables so it is in the best interest of the site to deal action hands.

Imagine if all the donks were to go broke and never deposit again because they realized that they suck at poker. What would happen to the sites rake. Correct the rake would decrease because 95 percent of the players would go broke and leave the site. The only way to keep them playing and maximize the rake is to allow them to win. Visit fulltiltisrigged to learn more.

Obviously you did not read too far into my site because I have a whole section on why the cards are rigged and not once do I state that the site is rigging the cards to only screw me. Look at all the pics of my playing for 1 day on ub. Look at all the horrific beats I take playing for 4 hours it just isn't right. I do not think the sites are screwing only me, but everyone. If you read my site you will see this.

All I can do is laugh....

So I put another 50 on... Hey, I doubled up last time right.. Might as well go for it again.. despite the bad beats on the back end of that double up...

So I put up another 50 today.... pocket tens preflop loose to a guy pushing all in with pocket fives.... i get pocket queens preflop and get pushed by a guy with pocket kings.... Another game a guy is pushing with ace 3 all in preflop when i have pocket sixes...

Again, on the surface some of these may not seem like ridiculous things.... But honestly, in 3 straight games you have illogical plays and either illogical results or cards that are unlikely to be against eachother.

Save the defensing of the sight at this point. I think we all know by now if you're on here looking to discredit any post, you clearly have another motive then just being an interested party.

Nah, i just do translations now:

All I want to do is cry....

So I put 100 on, hey, I sucked out 4 times before right? But I'll just mention my 1 bad beat.

So I put another 100 today...lost pocket 10's to pocket 5's, of course he flopped a set before the money went in but hey ho, ill leave that out. I called QQ against KK, the next day and 5 of my own suckouts later, another guy pushes A3 against my 66!

Again, on the surface my whole debate falls flat on its arse when considering alls those odds surmount to 19 to 1, well within the realms of possibility in an every day game......But honestly, you have illogical plays like them calling a set of 5's, pushing KK and shoving with an ace and CRAZY results like 19/1, I mean what are the odds of that?

I have no case, proof and barely a point so please don't critisize this post with logic and reason and hopefully a false accusation of your motives should keep you at bay.

Just watched some donk suckout 4 hands played in a row a 4 to 1 dog, taking me out on the last one. 86 hands in, 1st PP 10 10, he calls my shove (barely 10x the BB since I had no playable hands what so ever to this point) with 10 9 off and of course hits a 4 card flush. So I'm trolling around and find a moderator on fulltilt forum laying out all the ussual aurguments about why Fulltilt isnt rigged it's all skill blah blah. Funny he's lost a good amount of money on pokerstars and won a good amount on Fulltilt. Skill should be skill right if all the sites are truely random. Just makes me wonder him working for FT why he seems so much more "skilled" playing there. Jaconda78 is the name. BTW agreeing with other posters, I'm dealt a 2 well over 50 percent. Average a PP once every 50 hands. And every game has a "suck" hand I get over and over, like Q7 off etc, but I get dealt an A +10 maybe once every 100 hands. About as random as my ass. Cards went from good to complete shit after cashing out a 7th place big tourny cash. Must be coincidence I'm sure

I had deleted all my posts from this thread but thought I'd post again after sitting back and watching the debate.

This is something anyone can try, sign up to a training site, any one, I'm not here to advertise, watch a small stakes game and pick out a few players and then go to PTR and check out their stats.

A pattern will emerge over time in that TAG players who mostly rely on showdown equity for the bulk of their win rate will not be winners at FTP. Yet these same players do quite well at other sites such as PS.

The players that beat FTP are semi-TAG or LAG, they push non showdown winnings (the red line on your graphs).

There is no right or wrong way to play poker, showdown reliant TAG's who play solid and aggressive can have nice win rates but the fact these guys don't win at FTP help support what I have always argued and the stats in my HEM have always indicated.

Showdown winnings on FTP are manipulated. Across all sites my win rate when the PFR flopping two pair+ is +1,300bb/100 average (across 9 sites).

On FTP, the exact same filter of raising pre flop and flopping two pair or better is just +650bb/100. So my win rate in these spots has been literally halved.

If you take the time to look at the hand histories you will see that you almost always seem to run into a flush draw, someone turns a gut shot vs your set etc.

On FTP as the PFR who flops well, you will get coolered and outdrawn on the turn or river way more than what would happen at any other site. This is designed by the site, aggressive player flops well and bets like he should, loose player calls and flops a draw or turns a flush draw etc etc. It isn't that the draws hit more than they should, it is the fact that the draw itself was flopped when the PFR flopped well. Too coincidental and every database I've checked shows the same manipulation every time.

There is just too much evidence now against FTP being random. It is OK if one player can beat all other sites except FTP, but when you get a lot of players who can do well and hold their own anywhere else and yet they suffer at FTP, given they play the same solid TAG style, then you can only give the benefit of the doubt so many times.

Also, quite recently, I have a 30,000 hand sample of FTP where I played the following strategy-

- FOLD EVERYTHING except suited cards, so even fold AA/KK.

- Limp these suited cards, never raise them. Continue in a hand, never raising, just play super loose passive, cashe draws and try and catch two pair hands etc.

I actually came out with a 1.5bb/100 win rate over 30,000 hands of NL25!

The most horrific stat of all that arose is that my flush got paid off 84% of the time! This directly links to the theory of the PFR flopping well and running into draws too often. 84% of the time I chased a flush draw and hit, I GOT PAID OFF at showdown. This doesn't happen in real life, players raise AK, maybe c-bet a flop of 785 and then give up. They don't pay off flushes! They only pay off flushes if they have a hand so in HEM you'll see lots of sick hands such as player opens AK, fish calls 7h 5h.

Flop is Ac 6h 2h. Turn blanks, river comes Ah or Kh to give the PFR trips or two pair and give the fish a rivered flush. Fish donks half pot river, TAG calls with a solid hand. It happens throughout every database I have studied, time and time again.

I played on Full Tilt for play and real money. I play Texas Holdem.

First of all, the play money games seem alot more random. Everyone that can play half-way decent does well.

The real money games have two many coincidences. I came across too many to mention but the two that stuck out for me are the following:

1. I had my Ace full of Kings(AAAKK) get beat by 4 Kings (KKKK). the 4th king came on the river.

2. I had my flush Ace High with clubs get beat by a Kings full of twos. The last two came on the river and it was a club....

....come on now. Seriously?

Most of you that stick up for full tilt is naive or you work for the company. It's so obvious what the site is programmed to do. You withdraw or win a decent size tourney, than they start to fuck you really hard. Big stacks sucking out on smaller stacks consistently, of course its so random. Setup hands after another. The software is really really tilty. Like most posters have said, the worst hand is the nuts on tilt and percentages and favorites,HA forget about it. Also, If you guys ever seen the winnings of some online players is ridiculous. Some guy win the 750k, sunday brawl on the same day? I mean what the hell is going on iwht these sites. Some players win a big tournament and they don't ever play a single game after that? Go check out the lifetime winnings of some players. So many "one and doners". I know for sure it is rigged.

Everyone here seems to have a lot of stories about FT screwing them. Why didn't you all quit the second you thought something wasn't right? It shows terrible judgement to play in a poker game where you think you are being cheated. Either you subconsciously know its not rigged or you are just total suckers. Those are the only 2 possible reasons I can see for playing at a site after you have a feeling its rigged. If there are more I would love to know.


ps- this doesn't include the whatodds 50k hand crusade, i believe he actually did that for the reasons he claims

Teehee this thread's still going. Got to admit I watched my mate playing on fulltilt this weekend and the amount of cold decks and suckouts was just freakin ridiculous, I mostly put it down to how often there is an 'all in' in lowstakes SNG's but sh** me, thats the worst run of luck i seen since stars gave my account the boot.

ps Cake Poker and Ultimate bet rule

I have been playing Fulltilt Poker for over 4yrs. When you do anything long enough you can recognize a pattern. So, lets throw out the idea that everyone is a donk and don't know how to play. In my opinion, I think there is a timer for each tournament.

Each game only lasts a certain amount of time based on the amount of players that are in the tournament. Think about it....bandwidth costs money. It wouldn't be that hard to place a timer within the software to assure that games don't last too long.

All the evidence is there. Next time your at table and see a really short stack all in, look at the strength of the all in hand compared to the call.
The short stack can have AA and still will lose to some bs.

And for those who think online poker is real poker, ask yourself this question.....Is there any burn cards in online poker?? It makes a ton of difference. Don't believe me, watch Luck You starring Eric Bana.

Whether your a believer or not... We must all admit that there is a ton of blogs about online poker being rigged, and it would be biased to say that everyone is a donk or don't know how to play.

Anytime numbers don't make sense, then there is a problem. You can have an up and down straight flush draw, but it won't hit nearly as much as a three outter(A10 vs KK or AK vs AJ). The ace is a golden card online. Although there are only 4 of them, the odds of one hitting the table is just a probable as the sun coming up next week.

to: buck22

you made a post earlier about the sites not rigging action to make a bigger rake because rake is only usually about 5% with a $3 max, and because of this theres no point in trying to make bigger pots because nothing more will be taken out... but... what you are failing to realize is that they are rigging action to ensure that the full 5% or $$ max rake is reached.... lets say over a 100,000 hand period an average of only $2.00 rake per hand was reached (that means FT made $200,000 was made on rake) where as if the $3 max was reached during the same 100,000 hands (that would be $300,000)

you see whether its 25cents, $1, or max $3 per rake it is a big difference in profit margin when you look at the bigger picture overall....

I played on Absolute Poker for awhile and the suckouts are just unreal. People calling my Nut Flush on the flop with none of the suited cards in their hand and starting with small pair and weak kicker...calling to the river to get a full house. No rhyme or reason for these types of calls. It happens all the time. I thought that it was just a coincidence at first but I saw it happen way to much and usually for the same players and to other victims. The limit size didn't matter either it is not just a micro donk calling as they are stupid or dont care it happens in the bigger games more so.
I wonder if the RABBIT feature is hackable. I think it should be done away with as I think that it has somehow been exploited. I don't know if FTP or PS has it but AP does and this may be the thing behind these players supposed ESP.

My advice stay away from online poker. Until the U.S. steps in and regulates it and protects it's players!! Which by the look of it is not going to happen.

You have no protection and no regulation. You do the math.

Open your eyes people if has been done before (cheating) and is still being done.

There is just to much that doesn't make sense and if it doesn't make sense then it just isn't real true or right.

So so so so gutted! Im in major pokersite limbo and so f***ed off with the whole damn industry that ive been so loyal to.

Pokerstars - BANNED
Fulltilt - NO RAKEBACK
Cerues - 3 SCANDALS
Cake - CHEATS NOW HAVE HUD's
Ipoker,Party - NO RAKEBACK + HIGHER RAKE
Others - NO TRAFFIC

Where the hell can I go, i know im being anul about rakeback but pokers gotten way too tough to ignore the amount raked at $0.5/1,$1/2 etc

Why are you banned in pokerstars and have scandals in Cereus? Have you done bad actions on those sites?

[url]http://www.pokertableratings.com/blog/2010/05/ptr-security-alert-cereus-poker-network/[/url]

Cerues third scandal that is what he is talking about.

I decided to give Fulltilt a try. I played for a couple of weeks. I noticed every big hand I was in I lost on the river. I flopped sets, straights and flushes and lost them all. It seemed to happen a lot so I went back to my hand histories. What I was not expecting to see was winning less than 1% of the time in these cases. When I saw this I cashed out my remaining balance and won't be putting anymore funds in this account. I'm glad I found this forum so I know I'm not crazy.
- cheers

I actually came across this site looking for a reason why the traffic on Fulltilt seems to have died...as far as it being rigged...I have been playing the site since the US player ban was put on Party Poker and Poker Room...I have been playing on the same $160 dollar buy-in since then...my bankroll has been as low as $8 and as high $300...when I play a lot, it seems to go up...which leads me to believe that I am probably playing better then....right now I am sitting at about $100 and about 10,000 FTP points. I am playing .25/50 and .50/1.00 FL Hold'em .05/.10 NL RUSH Poker and tourneys that range in price from $1.10 to. $5.50...I can't say that I have seen anything that I would consider long term abnormalities since I have been playing on the site...If you play the free games, I am sure it seems like all of your big PPs are getting beat because of the number of people that are calling...but I can tell you that the number of times that I hit my small PPs on the flop seem to be about right(1 in 7)....I find that the more aggressive I play, the better I do...except when I run across overly aggressive players...that's when I tend to lose...I start calling too much...but I don't think it's fixed...I think people who play too tight/passive want to find the blame for why they are losing....I have been busted out of plenty tourneys with AA and won a bunch of hands with AA...also the length of the tourneys are determined by the rate of the blind increases...I saw a post that said the tourneys seem to last a fixed length...well, DUUH!!! when the blinds reach about 1/50 to 1/10 of the total chips in play, it can end at any time...for obvious reasons...

I tried out Rush Poker for the 1st time today. Damn. Deposited $100, bought in to a full ring .25/.50. About 10 hands in I get AA vs. 1010 all in, hits 7 8 9 J for straight. WTF. Buy in for another 50 and I am hitting amazing cards! Set after set, flopped 2 pair, etc. Back up to about $90, get AA again vs. 10J, flop is 8 9 Q. Get the fuck out of here.

mike

Yes it's rigged. Most of them are, believe me.
I'm a big winner on Stars (21bb/100) in a two year period. Started with $2 they gave me and turned into a real big number. I could play with my eyes closed. I joined Ipoker, Full Tilt and Party Poker and all hell broke loose.
On Ipoker I was running at 19bb/100 for the first two months, the boards looked similar to Stars. I then received a email from them to play x weekend because they would give 100% rakeback+bonuses that weekend. Look, the things that happened that weekend were impossible. I had more sets over sets than I ever saw in my life playing poker. Countless two pair vs better two pair. And get this, over 40 sets against me in a 12 hour period!! I play 6max but It was like I was playing 20max tables. I changed tables, I changed seats, I took brakes but everytime I was in a hand I got coolered. I lost two months worth of work in 12 hours to that rigged network.

Full Tilt and Party Poker have very similar patterns, most of them discussed here already. The thing I most notice in these two sites are the endless boards with 4 cards of the same suit that counterfeit all my hands and the endless wet boards that always hit the guy who is up against me. I also love the paired boards on these two sites. Everytime that pair hits me and makes me a set villain has the same set with bigger kicker!! lool. If you learn poker one of the major things you learn is that when a board is paired there is only a small chance villain has the set, and when you do have that set the chances of villain having it also decreases dramatically... well, not on Full Tilt, it actually increases... Better yet, changing seats, changing tables, changing stakes, taking breaks never ever works! You will just not win period!

Enter Pokerstars, no one ever has anything on 6max tables. Odds always seem to be right. Most boards are dry. In a two year period I rarely had sets over sets or second nuts vs the nuts. Idiots chasing draws without odds hit it once in a full moon. Taking breaks, changing seats, changing tables actually work when you are running bad (that's one of the best ways to know if it's rigged, because if you play 6 or 9 tables and changing all those things don't actually change anything you can be sure something fishy is going on)!!
That said, I can't see any patterns on Stars (I only play cash games though) so I can say it's the only site I trust so far.

Im done with Fulltilt, not saying it's rigged but for some reason it is the one site I'm gaurunteed to lose over large hand samples. My thread/blog...

[url]http://www.homepokergames.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=38802[/url]

....documents my struggle to grind $10 to $23k last year at pokerstars and various sites which involved 1 major downswing of 40+ buy ins over the 15 months. I achieved my goal and my game has never been more on form and yet after 3 months at Fulltilt im down $2k from FORTNIGHTLY 40 BUY IN SWINGS! Its so far from natural!

There is something fishy going on when a proven winning player with a good winrates loses $2k over 60k hands whilst making sure he is selecting just losing players and has NEVER trusted the site over the 6 years he has played there on and off.

Ive rescued the remains of my NUMEROUS deposits and will NEVER return to Fulltilt, i keep records of my dep/cashouts and every page has been around 3 cashouts to every deposit. Since Fulltilt the page is virtually ALL deposits making it SOOOOO obvious its time to leave, shouldn't be happening to a 6ptbb/100 winner at NL100 on stars.

Returned to stars today and played 1k hands of HU NL100 and it was a breath of fresh air, INSTANTLY feeling the difference when playing. Whatever it is that keeps me consistantly losing at a discusting LOSE rate at Fulltilt, Im done trying to figure it out when seemingly out-playing/thinking bad opponents.

I wash my hands of that crazy site!

I think that is a very fair approach to take. You took an objective view of your play at a particular site and saw that you weren't winning - for whatever reason - and decided to stop playing there. You made a point not to say that the site was rigged, since you didn't have proof. Instead, you developed a Plan B.

This should just about cover it:

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0&feature=related[/URL]

Short version of the story: Played over 20k hands on FTP in 7 days and i`ve been mostly winning, no more no less then on other sites (mostly DBR and Bwin) BUT from those 20k hands i`ve beed All in preflop with the better hand (AA vs JJ, TT vs 99, KK vs QJ) ~200 times. From those 200 hands that should normally go 80%/20% for me i`ve won only ~55% of them. The funny part is that i`ve also went all in preflop with the worst hand for ~60 times, also hands that should normaly run 80/20 to the hand in front and i`ve WON ~40% of those. EVEN THOU 20k hands is not much and 260 its not a very good field to make statistics on I`M 100% sure that Full Tilt Poker will help the worst hand win a lot more then it should.

THE WHY (my theory) A good player will grind his winnings of the fish and eventually the fish will run out of money and will leave the game (site). Also a good poker player will usually have the better hand when going ALL IN pre flop. SO in order to give the fish some of his money back and keep the tables going (and the rake).

Don`t get me wrong you can still make some money on Full Tilt BUT:
1st You make a lot less then if the games was NOT rigged.
2nd It takes a lot of skill and experience to not go tilt (and lose more money) after loosing twice (or three time) in a row with the best hand.
3ed Playing good solid poker with premium starting hands its a professional poker player "bread and butter" not being able to go all in with what you know is the best hand (because you know you have a bigger chance of loosing then math says you do) will damage your game a great deal.
4th why should you trust a poker room that "mildly" rigs its game.