There's lots of self-described "profitable" players out there folks. I don't take anyone's claims at face value anymore. Just yesterday on Stars there was some guy at the table going on and on about how he was making $1500-2000/mo., poker was his job, etc. A couple of us at the table checked out his online ranking at several different sites and he was a complete fish (<0% ROI, bottom 15% player). People are weird.

This shit we're all talking about will get exposed eventually. Those of you still willingly taking it up the ass should chat with the strong players at their next table. See what they say...

Hey PokerGods. I agree that poker is random. However, online poker, is anything BUT, random.

People who defend all the odd beats and odd happenings that go on, will always say things like "Oh you're just a loser" or "You have to learn how to adjust your play" or "You see many more hands online than live" etc etc etc.
The thing everyone gets upset about is the amount of times they get beat, when the odds would state otherwise.

While I don't play on Full Tilt, I have played on many online poker sites and they're all the same.
Many flops with JQK (suited) or AKA etc etc.
I can't count how many times I've been all-in, preflop with a hand like AK against A10, and I lose to a 10 on the flop. Although I'm a 3-1 favorite it seems like I lose, at least, 50% of the time. 99 vs 77 someone will hit a 7 or a straight with runner, runner.

It's all of these statistical improbabilities, that happen online that have people skeptical of what's going on.

Here's a GREAT example of how PREDICTABLE online poker is.

I just played in a tournament. I have AQ in the cutoff blinds are 100/200., I have 2850 in chips I raise to 600. Guy to my immediate left goes all in for 2770. I call (putting him on 1010 or JJ) I call. He has 10 10 (ok it's a coin flip) Flop AQK now, before the turn and the river are dealt, I predict a Jack on the river. What do you think the river is? Exactly!

Dear Poker Gods - anything can happen but at some points the odds have to make sense
I started tracking the hands (- my odds are off top of my head so excuse me if they are off)
Odds of 3 of suit hitting flop are roughly 5% - on FTP after 1000 hands it was 22%
Odds of 4 of suit hitting board - are what ?- 3% - HAPPENED 12%
Can't know how many times 2 players are holding aces - but odds of two players holding an ace and one hitting flop are about 12%
On Full Tilt - IT HAPPENED 65% of hands played to the end - this stat of course is flawed because dont have all the variables.
Aces appeared more than any other card, except 3s.
There were more high cards than low cards. The only time low cards appear are either in a sequence like 5 6 7 4 or in a pair - 3 4 4
Site is geared to do several things - first to make poker more exciting.
More people hit things on the flop than is possible.
Second to increase rake - though this is of course this is FTP's only real motive.
Third - convinces bad players they are good by making the game more like bingo. These players move from play chips to cash. And continue to play for money as it is now more like bingo. I believe some of them even chant bingo when their all in call with a gut shot straight hits.

Poker Stars - where do you live? I might have a new game in mind.

and bad dogs hand - i have seen that so often

if the flop is A Q K and the other guy holds a 10

no way next card is not a J

I consider myself a decent player that plays smart poker! Just to set the record straight.. I'm not one of those guy that make a tons of money playin' on-line poker. (Av.profit 2$ / Av. strake $7 / Av.ROI... 6$)... as ya'll can see I'm no poker pro and no donkey! WELL... I know the odds aren't always legit and it's programmed so that the site makes more & more cash but... you know... I just wanna play!!! I've tried PK stars then switched to Full tilt... After making good money the first few sitNgo, bad beats started happening way to often! Then, last night, I decided to play in a 24$+2$ sit-n-go... thinking that there'd be more smart players/less donkey. We started with 1500 chips( blinds are 15-30). SECOND hand... I wake up with AA on the Big Blind.
Some guy raises to 90, two other players call and when it comes back to me, I re-raised and make it 360. The guy at my left instantly calls. Now we're heads-up. The flop is K-2-7... he's the first to act and he bets 180. There's no possible flush draw or straight draw...I'm putting him on AK... in this situation I'd normally just call but knowing too well that he might suck out on the river or somethin' I GO ALL IN with my 1170$ remaining chips THEN he INSTANTLY CALLS and push his remaining 990$!!! NOW I'm thinking he has KK and flopped a set ( and that would've been ok) NO NO NO he has NOTHING!!! AJ of hearts

And this guy's stats on sharkscope were good so I knew he,s no donkey wright?
I'm thinking to myself... man this guy must be crazy putting his 24$ on the line with NOTHING not even a straight nor a flush draw...

Turns out he knew something I didn't.... J on the turn and a J on the river????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????
How can a decent player make that kind of decision!!!
Calls a 300$ re-raise.... ok
Calls an All-in of 1170$ with AJ when the flop is K-2-7...
... and he has no staright nor flush draw and NO PAIR???
And then hits a J on the turn and a J on the river?

Well, thats IT for me on full tilt guys. Good luck!

I have just recently been reading articles on very long thread about people thinking Pokerstars is rigged. If you do a search for 'online poker rigged' you will come across it on the first search page.
That contingent of people are quite adamant and passionate about their feelings and their stories are as atrocious as the ones on this site. Their financial losses are harrowing. One guy claims to have lost $127,000 over a stellar run of bad beats over a 6 months period after having made about $100,000 on another site before joing pokerstars.
Anyone have an opinion about the notion that all the poker sites are designed in much the same way and none are random?
I have noticed a lesser, but still manifest, pattern or cycle of win-some-lose-big-and-long on another site I started to frequent after I got sick of the FT curse. It was partly to see how my fortune might vary and if indeed it would vary at all.
I was winning sit'n'go's and made a nice little profit,. For a time I was sure that my suspicions about FT were confirmed because of the uneven results between FT and this other site.
After doing nicely over 6 SNgs it all started to suddenly go wrong. I have been losing to awful bad beats in a regular fashion. AA became a death hand, I got long dour runs of unplayable cards, people would suck out on me, etc etc.
It isn't as obvious as Full Tilt but it is happening. On one particular night I got dealt AA three seperate times and lost all my chips each time to obviously poorer hands. Maybe the culprit is not just Full Tilt but online gaming in totality. Has anyone played consistently over time on a site which hasn't exhibited this particular manifest cycling tendency of bad luck and bad beats? Is there a site that seems to play fair and random cards all the time?

I've seen a few FTP specials on Pokerstars, but nothing I'd consider unreal - definitely not at the same rate. Mind you, I haven't been playing on there for as long as I played on FTP, so maybe they'll flip the switch on me soon once I reach The Magical Amount(tm). What I notice the most is that people fold a LOT more on Stars. People will even fold on a re-raise pre-flop if they're bluffing, something that I almost never saw on FTP. There are a lot of donkeys that will play 50% of their hands and bet out on the flop 100% of the time (of course they check if they hit their hand extra hard - lol), but I have yet to see a single one last the distance. On FTP it was almost a given that in an 18-man SNG that the top 2 would have massive chip stacks built on insane beats. I mean, think about it - if FTP was a clean game, 90% of their players would be cleaned out so fast they'd never come back. Another possible motive for juicing the cards if you ask me.

Check out this youtube video of a guy going postal about FTP: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEAT_MCsh0I[/url] (warning: much inappropriate language). LOL.

FTP, Pokerstars, Party Poker (back in the day) etc, all work the same. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I play on WSEX because you get 80% of your rake back (It was 100% at one point, but I guess they, now realize they can make money by constantly putting "action" cards on the flop)
Anyway, just playing this morning at a $25NL table, there's a guy to my right with $77 and change. So I'm figurign he's got the golden seat. Well I was right. I'm dealt absolute shit, for the 1st 17 hands. I don't play ONE of them. When I was in the blinds that guy on my left, constantly raised me out of the pot.
Well, I'm dealt KK one hand in the BB, I'm waiting for him to act, as he normally was. He just calls, so I raise 4 times the BB to $1, everyone folds, except the guy to my right. Flop comes K 3 Q rainbow. He checks, I bet the pot (thinking he may have J10 which ALWAYS seems to happen online) He instacalls my $2.50 bet, Next card is a 10 (now there are two clubs on the board) I over bet the pot betting $7. He instacalls again, now I'm scared he has AJ. River brings an 8 of clubs. He checks, I check because God only knows what he's got. Pot goes his way and he turns over FUCKING 39 OF CLUBS FOR A FLUSH????????? Right! I also watched this guy bust somebody with 27 of diamonds as he, again chased his flush to the river against someone who had AJ and hit 2 pair on the flop.
No matter how well you play, or what level you play, you'll see the inprobabilities are the probabilities in online poker, and it really sucks because I LOVE the game.
I'm not claiming, nor have I ever claimed, to be a professional, but I have a pretty dam good grasp on the game, betting techniques, and definitely ODDS and probabilities, that have made me money in live games. Yet, whenever I get to a certain point on line (it seems to be around $300 on WSEX) things like that beat, above happen ALL THE TIME.
They know there's no way I'm getting away from top set on the flop.
Just sat down at a freeroll, one hand I'm out. Dealt KK, as usual, there's always, at least one DONK, who pushes in their whole stack on the first hand, I call. They turn over J7, flop JJ374. Yep, no way is online poker fixed.

KKK777- I did an experiment, much like you did, although I only took 600 hands (200 at 3 tables, at different levels) almost the same results 24% flopped 3 suit, 15% flopped 4. 21% flopped 3 to a straight, 16%, 4 to a straight.

And whoever mentioned that if online poker sites didn't allow DONKS to catch their gutshot draws, and draw out flushes and straights on the river, they'd lose 90% of their business, you'd be 100% correct! And they KNOW IT TOO!

Just watched a guy get busted with KQ. Flop came Q67 turn 9, river 3. Was the guy that busted him holding 8 10? 45? 58? Nope. He was holding Q3 LOL and called a big preflop raise with it LMAO!
Gotta love online poker, it's like playing the lottery!

Ya know, I could post here all day if I keep playing. Just got knocked out of a SnG tourney. I was shortstacked had 830 in chips. Blinds were 25/50. I get dealt AA. Raise to 200. Get one caller. Flop is 892 (two spades). gut checks, I go all in he calls, with JQ off suit turn YEP A FUKKING 10! So now I'm drawing dead.

Sure, online poker is VERY realistic LMAO!

Here's another GREAT online poker BULLSHIT happening.

SnG tourney. I'm heads up, I'm dealt KK. Blinds are 100/200 I have 2400 in chips, other player has 5100 in ships (give or take a few) I raise to 800. He reraises me all in. Of course I call. He has Q6 (off suit) Flop Q4678. Yeah, I'm only 87% to win before the flop, so him sucking out on me was definitely a statistical probabilty.

The last 13 tournaments I've been knocked out of, I had the BEST HAND when the money went in. Just amazes me how although hands like that should hold up 7 out of 8 times. They may hold up HALF of the time, if your lucky!

I am not much of a tournament player, never finished in the money on pokerstars and finished only once on full tilt. During full tilt tournaments I have witness bad beats like those mentioned below. I do not see that on pokerstars. It happens but not at the frequency in which it does on full tilt. Same goes for the cash games.

But what I have noticed on Pokerstars is during the last two tournaments I played, I was the chip leader before the break. After the first break I was card dead.

the name is Full RIGGED Tilt Poker ---- not Full Tilt Poker

Ridiculous ftp machine was on my side last night, i won 3 times with smaller pocket pair and 2 times with KQ off against AK off, that's like 20-23% chances for me to win and i won all 5 times. But that's not why i'm here, check this situation, i swear i've never seen anything like this. I folded As5h after two reraises , 3 guys bets up to 17bb. Flop Jh8d5c. First guy goes all-in, second one thinks a while and calls and third one goes all in too??? First one shows 8h8c second one QsQd (there is no higher card on table so he was hoping that he's good) and third one shows JdJc. Turn 5d!!! So if was there, i would have trips too? On turn three guys would have trips and one guy highest pair (or actually two fulls and one with two pairs)? Since river was 6d, it would be only fair if someone folded flush and someone straight lol. You still can make some money there, just play slow and be very patient, always be sure that you have bigger kicker and forget situations where donks can have straight or flush. Don't play any game without at least A10 or KQ or pair, if they read you who cares move to another table or change something for some time but eventually go back to playing safe. Forget about your live game style on ftp, because you will be broke soon. You will think you're good on flop most of the time but don't trust ftp machine.

I could post funny hands all day here, last two hands i got two pairs on flop and guy gets a flush ( AhJd vs. Ks7s - flop AsJs4s) , next hand both get two pairs on flop (K10 vs. J10 - flop K10J, i mean, it's becoming a joke.

i just won a $10, 90 person tourney.
But was due to hardly any skill on my part.
Cards were just insane and timely.
Guy has slowed played AA - I have K 10
flop is 10 10 J - he goes all in
and i collect his chips.

and on and on like that. Was like ftp picked me to win

I suppose so I don't quit playing

LMAO - SNG where 35 hands in a row had either an ace or 3 of a suit on the flop. And the other players are going - no its not rigged.
Then i smashed myself in the head with a hammer

I understand. So if you really believe that then adjust your game by making incorrect plays and chasing straights & flushes. Give yourself about 3 months of playing this way and if you have a positive ROI and Positive earnings I will deposit $50 into your fulltilt account and if your outcome is negative I want nothing more than you to stop complaining about something you can do nothing about. You can only control yourself and your game. (Proof of sessions and play would be supervised by me or any other full tilt player of my choice). The odds of a coin landing on heads is 50/50, so try flipping a coin 4 times if EVERYTHING based on odds gos PERFECTLY ALL of the time then Heads should come up 2 times and Tails should come up the other 2 times. I guarantee the outcome wont even look like this if you tried it 10 times seperately. This is how you look @ poker just because my flush draw (9 outs) has a 36% chance of hitting from flop to river doesnt mean that is will hit 36% out of ten times I hold the exact same type of draw, but It WILL even out in the long run. A run longer than 2 games today, 1 game tommorow and 5 next week. I understand where your coming from, but the problem might not be how you play the game, buy just how you view it. Good Luck @ the tables

I was paying attention thats why I replied. No one cares if you are a beginner or not (fact). How does saying your not a beginner help anyone better their game? If you make alot of money playing poker why are you here complaining and not at the tables making $$ or helping people understand whats really going on? (Fiction) Every moron doesnt know how to take advantage of weak players or even spot weak players for that matter, if thats true why do poker books and magazines sell like porno movies. Not to say morons read books, but what would be the need. (Fiction) How do you know who is making $$ off of fish or donkeys speak for yourself, unless you are more than one person. That would explain how you can calculate the odds of bad players drawing out on good players on full tilt, because you are really we. If you aren't making any money maybe you are the fish/donkey. Lets bet on it, best out of 3 heads up matches at full tilt, you verses any one of my full tilt moron buddies of MY choice. Beat them and then we will play. Im not sure about your bankroll, but since you make $$ any heads up table in the range of $2-$10 should be okay for you. Winner shuts up and stays off of this forum. I would bet you $$, but I dont think a player of your caliber would pay up. (Thats called a read, just off the kinda stuff your saying here)

P.S give me the equation for how you came up with 80% of the time donkeys/fish draw on you and every other player and I will add $100 to your monsterous bankroll :D .

I dont doubt that you do know how to adjust to cold cards and bad players. Keep making good plays and good bets and it will even out in the long run. Think of it this way, there are ALOT of people making 7 figures a year just playing internet poker...check out annette_15 or any of the other internet pros. Its not luck, we both know this as poker players. Its skill that allows players to get paid in the game. Keep playing well and you will see improvement. Dont focus on what you cant change.

We can converse when you learn how to type full sentences: example: you are either work for Full RIGGED Tilt. And also when you learn how to spell example: beleive???? I before E smarty and you are questioning my IQ. If you cant complete sentences or spell it really makes it hard for me to believe that you could even comprehend the game of poker. Better luck next time, I have no reply for you. My diagnosis: hooked on phonics before poker, forums, and dating :D .

Ok genius, did you know that online ranking sites DONT take cash games into consideration when ranking a player. So how do you rank players that play strictly ring games? If you play 50 ring game sessions and 2 tournaments a month even if you are Phil Ivey you ARE NOT going to win the 2 monthly tournaments that you play 100% of the time or even 70% of the time consistantly. So genius if player doesnt concentrate on tournaments with buy ins $2 or up and with atleast 18 players or more their player rankings WILL NOT BE ACCURATE. Check the records before you open your mouth. O and online poker sites date back to 5 years or more, when will the CONSPIRACY be uncovered? Or better yet if you have so many problems with online poker sites why play online, just shut up and stop playing. But if you dont play online poker then why are you here complaining about it. My guess is that you are a losing player/hypocrite that needs to vent. :D :)

Yes, I do understand people being skeptical. I have seen these same senarios occur in brick & mortar casinos, WPT tournaments, and the World Series of Poker. If you think im lying check out how last years main event winner jerry yang could do no wrong @ the final table. This was REAL life, not a program, not a simulation, just real players that were playing with real cards & a real dealer. Those episodes of the WSOP still play on ESPN. Check em out, the same things the players here are posting about occur in real life situations and since we dont follow each pro to every cash game and tourney he/she plays we can only account for what we see on TV, but believe me everyone has their share of bad beats and bad luck. I feel you bad_dog, but impobabilities can be found in live casino play and online play and it would be impossible for one person or a group of people to say that they occur more in one realm than the other. They might occur more for that one person or that one group but that is hardly the MAJORITY.

This is a bad example. I dont think you can blame this on online poker. Basically, you are telling me that if me and you were playing heads up and I went all in and showed you that I was holding any mid to big pair 10's to Q's before you made the call, you would still call knowing that you were beatin already? Bad_dog that makes no sense if you knew he had 10's or J's you shouldnt have called, that was a bad decision on your part because AQ isnt a paired hand the only way you would win is by pairing one of your cards which puts you in a race situation for ALL of your chips while you still had enough chips to last atleast 9.5 times (2850/300) around the table without being blinded out. Why not wait for a better spot to put ALL of your money in. He raised you ALL IN telling you that his hand was better and it was. Calling off ALL of your chips w/ AQ is a bad move pre-flop unless. A) you have your opponent out chipped by atleast 3 to 1 or 9000(you) and 3000(him) atleast here if you just want to gamble/race you can AFFORD too. There are some other reasons I wont discuss, but you being beat here was your fault. The best hand pre-flop held up. A senario in which most people complain about NOT happening the most. Most people feel as if the BEST hand pre-flop should ALWAYS win the pot like AA vs. K 10 offsuit, but we all know that this doesnt happen all of the time. Its not the sites fault because you made a bad move. A pair of 10's is clearly better than AQ, you gambled and lost (like you should have). This is an example were you need to go back and analyze your play and make corrections.

USA - GA whats up? What new game?

What you are saying makes perfect sense. My experiences from the Live games and the internet games are not much different. The same things Ive seen online I have also seen at the live tables. There are fluctuations in my live game play almost equal to my internet play. Not even in live play do I feel as if the cards that are dealt to me are completely fair and random, but they are because poker is a random game.

PokerGods
"June 29, 2008
We can converse when you learn how to type full sentences: example: you are either work for Full RIGGED Tilt. And also when you learn how to spell example: beleive???? I before E smarty and you are questioning my IQ. If you cant complete sentences or spell it really makes it hard for me to believe that you could even comprehend the game of poker. Better luck next time, I have no reply for you. My diagnosis: hooked on phonics before poker, forums, and dating :D"

Listen a-wipe!!I have a series 7 license and a law degree from Yale; I have traded options professionally for 11 years registered with an options exchange! So...... what I FORGOT about statisitics and probability and math is MORE THAN YOU KNOW or will probably ever know! Got it!!!! Now like I said....... you either work for the Full RIGGED Tilt joker poker site or your poker IQ is less than 90! Which is it?? And by the way while we are on the subject, what are YOUR credentials to defend a site that is CLEARLY rigged and ON-RANDOM according to many smart and experienced players?? I have played poker for almost 20 yeas and this site is a TOTAL JOKE! It has NOTHING to do with my play or anyone's play that is on this forum. Full RIGGED Tilt is a rigged poker site with programmed hands that are set up to defy and defeat the natural probabilities that most of us have seen and expect in LIVE GAMES and with true poker. It has nothing to do with more hands per hour (as I commented on and explained in detail in previous posts). The site is a total joke like most online poker sites. So genius don't confuse typing ability (or lack thereof) and "typos" with intellgience....... you f-uped retard!!

kriskris summed up the problem with this joker poker site, to-wit: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what you are neglecting to see is that WE NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY OFF OF THE DONKEYS AND THE FISH!!!!!!!!!!. The odds are always in their favor. How would you like me to adopt my play when I flop a full house? IT DOESNT MATTER!! Because the guy with K9 is not going to lay his hand down and he WILL hit that 9 on the river. We are complaining because everytime we are the favorite to win, we LOSE! I should be making tons of money when someone is drawing, but 80% of the time, they will hit their draw. It's disgusting! Full tilt is nowhere close to real poker. And we do play for REAL $$$$ in tourneys. But the same bull shit stands. Yea its my bad play that is causing me lose money. Top two pair, always crushed on the river by another top two pair. Full houses always drowned.....three people pre-flop have pocket pairs and WE ALL HIT A SET??????????????? Yea but we all have bad days in real ring games and real tournament scenarios, and your goint to see them online too and in casinos. But casinos insure against improbability. If full tilt had a bad beat jackpot, they would be broke

ok here's the deal. why anybody would trust to play online is beyond me. I've read most of the post and I dont believe anybody has mentioned this one key element. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BOTTOM CARD! Thats right. If you are playing at the casino once the cards are shuffled they're shuffled. The top card is what it is and the bottom card is what it is. Online The cards are just randomly picked. I'm assuming the odds are the same for everything but still if they need a jack to suck you off, and in real life it got shuffled to the bottom, too fucking bad for them. In online it can pull that jack at anytime. anyways my bro was playing today i still laugh at him. A few of his hands. Heads up. Him Q Q Opponet Q 6 flop 2 3 4 turn 5 river who cares lmao. very next hand. Opponet has been disconnected for a few hands. He comes back shoves all in. bro has J J opponet 6 3. flop 6 3 x turn 6 river 3 hahah lmao. a few hands later. Him A 5 opponet Kd 8. flop 5 9 5 with two dimes. turn dime river dime lmao he lose again. very next hand swear to god Him K K opponet 9 Q flop 2 4 9 turn x river Q hahah lmao again $450 lost in the span of 4 hands. You guys are suckers and I truly feel for you all as all these site are bogus and the math is not at all what it should be.

but poker gods - you didnt answer my point about the odds after we tracked 1000 hands
I am happy you have degrees. Mom must be proud