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"There is nothing wrong with playing A5s from LP in a NL cash game (I'm referring to 6 max here...."""
What Odds - you got this perfectly correct in my view. I would add this to the "you played it wrong crowd" - According to who???? I have read several books and I know that the pros would have played this a dozen different ways: * Danny N would have probably min raised * Ivey calls for sure * Grinder calls for sure * Hansen - please - he probably thought it was the nuts. * Helmouth folds * Gordon folds etc. etc. etc. The point being, we mere mortals ought to be a bit less confident in whether a hand was played correctly or not since the poker Gods can't agree amongst themselves. I - for me - would have played the hand exactly like it was played with a slightly different twist then "WHAT ODDS". I like the potential monsters - suited ace in late position is one of those where your opponent can dead hit their hand and you can still take all their money if the flop comes right for you as well. Finally I think the point is this from the prior post - at least in my humble opinion - the Hero played the hand much better then his opponent (with KK I raise at least 5 BBs preflop as I do not want rag ace calls) and I would have never let the hero see the turn if I survived the flop). The KK was played horribly in my view and still got rewarded. That does not prove anything about the randomness of FT - but the hand play was fine. |
whatodds, eldave,
Both of you guys stated there is nothing wrong with calling with A5 suited, not in the blind, facing a raise from MP at a 6 max table. Cransley posted a picture of his hand and he was clearly at a full 9 man table so that was not the case in this hand. The reason I think it was a poor call is A5(suited or not) is totally dominated by 17 different hands(A6-AK and any pair 5's or better), all of which are in most players range of opening up a pot in middle position. The only way you are not dominated there is if your opponent has 2's,3's,4's or KJ, KQ, maybe QJ suited. So, in the average online players range of raising there, 17 hands have you dominated, 3 hands are a coinflip, and you are slightly ahead of 3 hands. Thats why you shouldn't call pre flop with ace rag in my opinion, it is dominated by the majority of hands people are opening pots with, and it dominates exactly ZERO hands. Even if the other guy has A2 you're just going to chop it. I'd much rather call with 10Js or even 78s than A5s. Maybe you guys disagree, but in my opinion people overplaying ace rag is one of the most common mistakes in hold'em. I don't mind you saying I'm part of the "you should have played it that way crowd", but keep in mind; the only reason I even had the opportunity to second guess his hand is because he is part of the "lose a hand then post it on a forum as it is proof of something" crowd. The reason why I said something is many other players were in his seat they wouldnt have lost a dime and examining your own play always helps where as crying about a hand on a forum generally doesn't do much for your game. If you don't want someone second guessing your hands just keep them off an online forum. |
VAPoker
You talk as if the only thing that matters in Holdem is the strength of your hand pre-flop, and that's not the case. What matters, more often than not, is the strength of the hand you can represent. That is one of the advantages of having position - you can tell a lot from the betting patterns of your opponent and can put pressure on them to fold the better hand, by representing something stronger. You can generally take advantage of those occasions when they have missed the flop, which will be more often than not. How do you think Gus Hansen, Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan play...watch high stakes poker and see for yourself...they are ALWAYS playing A5s, heads up in last position. Why? Because it's a positive equity strategy. This is why playing A5s is a reasonable play here...the vast majority of the hands that opponent is likely to hold, would have missed the flop and why playing an aggressive style at most pots (particularly when last to act) is a profitable play, in the long run. I averaged $35k a year at the Bicycle casino, (just playing evenings and weekends) playing the style I do at full tilt. The difference was that the cards were dealt randomly. Suck-outs like the ones at FTP occurred the correct amount of times, representing the odds of them happening. At FTP that just doesn't happen. Going all-in with the strongest hand before the river will always return a profit in the long run in real poker. At FTP, as I have found to my cost, you will ultimately lose by playing that way. Hence it is rigged - or whatever term you prefer for a random number generator that clearly isn't random! What Odds hits the nail on the head. By delivering more action cards the pots are made bigger and their rake increases. There are billions of dollars involved in this industry and a small % increase in the take by the house equals a huge sum of money. Don't try and pretend that there isn't a financial motive behind what goes on here...there is. |
I appreciate your comments as I beleive they are genuine. For the record - I am sure that there are many folks that would agree with your strategy regarding A-5 suited, etc. - Just recognize that there are many who do not who are very successful players as well. In addition to the actual cards, what is not available is what the intent of the A-5 player was (e.g., to steal a hand, etc.) and what the pattern of the raiser had been - i.e., did he have a read on this guy?
Employing ABC poker (i.e., premimum hands in position only) is one recommended approach to poker. I abandoned it in favor of Danny N's small ball approach as I found it much more profitable - at least for me. I was fininshing to many live tourneys in the bubble area - not any more - winning now. Funny - I won a tourney this morning an the critical hand for me was a min raise I did with A 3 diamonds against a pretty tight player. Flop came A-3-3 - he had A - K and I took all his chips. Had he re-raised me preflop I could have gotten away pretty cheaply. Anyway - I don't think your opinion on the play was necessarily wrong - just wanted to point out that there are many varied valid ways to play the game. What the poster was frustrated about though had nothing to do with that hand. It had to do - I'm guessing here from my own experience- with a foking inexplicable string of hands where he was in with the best (whether form starting best, trapping, lucky ass flop, etc) and when all the chips are in the hand does not hold up time after time. It is not the bad beat - it is the bad beat pattern, It is the flop that hits just enough of everyone pattern, it is the one turn card that keeps 5 players in pattern that he is reacting to. It wasn't really about A-5. Take care friend |
Absolutely spot-on analysis Eldave.
I would never moan about the occasional bad beat - that is part of the game and we all benefit from them as well as lose to them on occasions. It is the frequency of their occurrence at this site, giving a run of improbable results that, taken together, are statistically a virtual impossibility. The way to win money at poker is to have an edge over the odds, sufficient to make you an above-average player AND to cater for the loss of the chips to the rake...a few percent of edge is all it needs. You achieve that edge by developing intuition - knowing when to fold a strong hand, knowing when a strong raise will force a timid player to ditch the best hand, etc - and by winning more pots than would be won by your hole cards alone. This last part comes from playing position well, making well timed bluffs and semi bluffs, and maximising your chips when you have a winning hand. Going all-in with the best hand, heads up, is a guaranteed way to win money in the long term, when playing poker. The odds of the suckout are always smaller than the odds of the win. At this site this is the most glaring "adjustment" of the game by the code-writers - it just doesn't happen the way it should, when compared to the odds. |
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Feel your pain WHATODDS. I lost the last five showdowns as a favorite (rebuilding stacks each time) before going out on the hand below.
This was a perfect flop for me as I was short stacked (thanks to the shit above) hoping to catch other players with rag aces - so I slowplay at first (a mistake perhaps). When 3 people stay in (one guy was already all in) I thought - oh fok - someone has K with better kicker - oh well. Then I say to myself - no, this is FT - some fok is staying with a J-10 gutshot even though there is AKK on the board. Please no Q - at least let me lose to K - 10. Sure as shit - river = Q - gut shot (4ht best hand) wins, As a note - this fok was winning whatever trash he played the whole tourney. egads. Full Tilt Poker Game #12213891912: Satellite to FTOPS Main Event (91264173), Table 5 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:10:45 ET - 2009/05/14 Seat 1: falafaf (4,280) Seat 2: de bierkar NL (5,145) Seat 3: hustletakova (20), is sitting out Seat 4: loosencrazy (5,620) Seat 5: cecumm (10,295) Seat 6: FubiusMaximus (5,620) Seat 7: eldave1 (2,560) Seat 8: nicolae05 (465) falafaf antes 25 de bierkar NL antes 25 hustletakova antes 20, and is all in loosencrazy antes 25 cecumm antes 25 FubiusMaximus antes 25 eldave1 antes 25 nicolae05 antes 25 de bierkar NL posts the small blind of 150 hustletakova checks The button is in seat #1 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to eldave1 [9s Kd] loosencrazy folds cecumm folds FubiusMaximus calls 300 eldave1 calls 300 nicolae05 folds falafaf raises to 600 de bierkar NL folds FubiusMaximus calls 300 eldave1 calls 300 *** FLOP *** [Ks Ah Kc] FubiusMaximus checks eldave1 checks falafaf bets 600 FubiusMaximus calls 600 eldave1 raises to 1,200 falafaf calls 600 FubiusMaximus calls 600 *** TURN *** [Ks Ah Kc] [6d] FubiusMaximus checks eldave1 bets 735, and is all in falafaf calls 735 FubiusMaximus calls 735 *** RIVER *** [Ks Ah Kc 6d] [Qh] FubiusMaximus bets 900 falafaf calls 900 *** SHOW DOWN *** FubiusMaximus shows [Jh Td] a straight, Ace high falafaf mucks FubiusMaximus wins side pot #2 (1,800) with a straight, Ace high eldave1 mucks FubiusMaximus wins side pot #1 (7,790) with a straight, Ace high hustletakova mucks FubiusMaximus wins the main pot (160) with a straight, Ace high *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 9,750 Main pot 160. Side pot 1 7,790. Side pot 2 1,800. | Rake 0 Board: [Ks Ah Kc 6d Qh] Seat 1: falafaf (button) mucked [As 2c] - two pair, Aces and Kings Seat 2: de bierkar NL (small blind) folded before the Flop Seat 3: hustletakova (big blind) mucked [2s Ad] - two pair, Aces and Kings Seat 4: loosencrazy folded before the Flop Seat 5: cecumm folded before the Flop Seat 6: FubiusMaximus showed [Jh Td] and won (9,750) with a straight, Ace high Seat 7: eldave1 mucked [9s Kd] - three of a kind, Kings Seat 8: nicolae05 folded before the Flop |
What Odds
It is quite clear to me, seeing these hands, that you and I are having the same experience...I will also bet - and correct me if I am wrong - that between these pocket Aces being cracked each time you did not have any that won hands, unless they were to players who all folded to an average raise. That is what I find with AA and KK on Full-Tilt...you either lose a stack by the cards being rigged against you, or you just take the blinds. Anyone else find this? Oh...and before long that poker god, VA Poker, will come along and tell you its because you're a bad player! Cransley |
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Gone back to my pokerstars account at start of the month, and it really feels like im experiencing the ANTI-RIG! I am playing like a demon of course, and in good shape 90% of the time, but im winning at a ridiculous rate, its awesome, but this month, my roi's are about 130% and BB/hr is like 35, is that just how poker roles? Or is it a bit of a coincidence that the British promotions are on this month hmmmmmm. Hope its just good play and would thouroughly recommend pokerstars at mo lol. Ive been full tilt free for months, good ridence to that bauush*t! If it aint workin, quit the site ffs.
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Just started playing Titan poker...what a difference. you get the nuts on the turn and you don't get sucked out on....Had three, all-in bets hold up tonight...never used to get that at FTP
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