PF I was 70/30

post flop I was 83/17

These "pros" (i.e. college or HS drop-outs who got lucky) running this site guys are scumbags.

I don't know why I even waste time on a dollar.

Guess I figure maybe the rig will help me to finish in top 3 places someday.

If that happened it would in no way change my opinion.

Blinds are still the greatest factor in determining tournament lengths. An action hand might eliminate some players early but it doesn't really matter. Look at any MTT past level 8, by then the blinds are so high in comparison to the average stack the money is getting in with or without action hands. The other thing to think about it this; lets say not one person gets coolered in a big action hand the first 2 hours of the tournament. The only thing that would change is that the average stack would be 10BB instead of 20BB. So you could have 100 guys with an average stack of 20BB or 200 guys with an average stack of 10BB. Would that tournament play out all that differently? You can take in even farther and say that if no one got eliminated in the first 2 hours it still wouldnt really matter. Because then the average stack would be 4BB's instead of 20, even though there might be 500 guys instead of 100 that tourney is still ending at roughly the same time. Basically if there were no coolers early on the stack sizes would be so small in comparison to the BB by the third hour you would have 2 players all in on every table every hand. Would those tournaments really last any longer?

I can't argue with any of the math, but it seems (to me) like it would make sense that a tournament would be over a lot quicker if every hand at every table featured AA vs KK every time, for example. In that tournament, I don't see the blinds ever being a factor unless players were (or became) aware of the situation. A ninety player tournament would be over in no more than ninety hands spread over all the tables - at least one player would be eliminated from each table per hand. The hands would also go very quickly because they would most likely be all-in pre-flop. Low buy-in tournaments would be over even quicker since so many players have a tendency to go all-in with just about anything and multiple players would likely be eliminated each hand. Obviously that whole example is completely over-the-top (some may not think so), but it is for illustrative purposes only.

One other issue that would come into player is the personality of the individual being knocked out prematurely by the "action hand". I suppose a lot of people would want to get right back in another tournament. I personally would be less likely to contribute more buy-ins after something like that. If I'm knocked out with some insane lucky draw or something, I normally just want to get away from it for a while rather than play another one right away.

So even if hands were being orchestrated to eliminate players more quickly, it would have the potential to backfire since some of those people (like me) would undoubtedly be frustrated enough to just walk away rather than immediately buy in to another tournament.

You are right about the AAvKK thing but thats kind of my point. The day you see the bubble burst in an MTT and the average BB/stack is like 70 (like it would be in situations not even as extreme as the AA KK thing)then it might seem to me like they are setting up too many coolers. But in reality you basically never see that, I literally never have one time playing internet poker. So in an extreme situation they could set up enough action hand coolers to make a tournament end prematurely before the blinds dictate but the fact remains, when do you ever see that? Every single poker tournament I have ever played in has progressed based on the levels of the blinds. Thats not to say its impossible for a tourney to be so set up that it ends prematurely I'm just saying I have never seen it on any site or live, ever.

Ok. I wasn't really talking about what is or isn't going on at any site or what is or has been observed. It wouldn't be possible (or very smart) for me to try to dispute someone's obvservations and personal experiences.

I was just trying to explain the theoretical logic, as I understood it, behind the claim that a poker site could increase buy-ins by setting up big show-downs with increased frequency.

So, not saying it would be a good (or feasible) idea or a bad idea - just that I think that is what people mean when they say that a tournament could be "rigged for action" even when there is no per-hand rake involved.

The original post by nitemare was claiming FTP is rigging tournaments to create more rake. I just think the fact that every single poker tournament I've ever played in, seen, or read about on FTP, Pokerstars or anywhere else has progressed and concluded based on the elevation of the blinds means its not very likely rigging a tournament for action would do that much. Like I already said, if no one gets knocked out early then everyone is short by level 8 or 9 and all the money is getting in reguardless. These people aren't coming on here saying Full Tilt theoretically might benifit from cheating, they are claiming that they know for a fact Full Tilt is cheating based on information that I am trying to point out makes very little sense. Whether or not it could theoretically possibly happen is kind of irrevelant to my point. I'm just saying it doesn't really make sense so therefore should not be used as so called proof a site is cheating. No one likes to be called a cheater and there is an unwritten rule in poker that if you call someone a cheater you better be 1000%sure. It's not something I believe should be thrown around lightly so I don't like it when people use horrible logic as so called proof. I know that wasn't your point at all but it was the point of the poster I was responding to originally.

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VA Poker

so just to understand your viewpoint --> you say FTP is giving a 'random' deal such that all the anecdotal stuff we/I see over and over and over again is mathematical, or whatever term you choose to use that is more 'technical' but does not proclaim the site is rigged?

nitemare,
I don't really know what you are talking about. Are you talking about the last thing I said to you? The last thing I said to you was the FTP didn't make any more money by making you lose to a straight (I was nice enough not to point out that you went broke with a pair on the 4th hand of a tourney). I simply asked you multiple times how FTP made more money by you losing that hand. You still have yet to answer me. If you want to personally attack me for not thinking a website is rigged against me thats fine. Just go see how many people are playing on FTP right now. I wonder who they agree with.

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Been playing some relatively large stakes single table recently of which the pots are 99% of the time resolved before before the river, rarely all in. I've found that haven't had ridiculous bad beats, still a few, but thought my super unlucky run had taken a turn. My mate asked me to play some $10 games for him and the suck outs were silly. It all came back to me, suddenly AA was gettin cracked constantly, top pairs outdrawn, it just has to be the volume of action that one gets at low stakes.
If people are playing better, there's alot less gambling going on, less variance.
Im playing stars at mo, doing fine, but playing the low stakes just deja vu'd my whole experience with fulltilt.

THEORY: When players are playing better, you win money slowly but consistantly, and when players are bad, you win in huge streaks but accompanied with far more bad beats.

Ultimately bad players are better equity, but you will have long streaks of losing to them. So this could easily be mistaken for a dodgy RNG.

whatodds,

I was responding to nitemare's post because he continues to personally attack me because I say in my opinion FTP probably isn't rigged. You are right though, it makes alot more sense to respond to what you are saying rather than respond to incomprehensibe personal attacks by strangers. I'd rather have a good discussion than trade insults any day.

As far as your stats go I see your logic but here's what I don't understand. You seem to be comparing your NL5 stats on FTP to your stats on other sites playing bigger stakes. It seems to me, to compare results on different site you would use samples from the same levels. When I first started playing online I started out fairly low, even though I'd had success live I wanted to start low as I felt the online game was probably alot different. It was very very difficult for me to win money at NL10 and NL25 even though I've had modestly consistent success for years playing 1/2 and 2/4 live. Finally I just deposited $1000, started playng NL100 and have been fairly successful ever since. I know you think if you win at NL25 or NL50 other places you should be crushing NL5 at FTP because the competition is worse. In my opinion, sometimes the comepetiton can be so bad that its hard to win consistently. You can never bluff them off of any hand, you never know where you stand in any given hand because their ranges are incomprehensible. Sure you can win a ton if you are simply getting better cards than everyone else. I honestly don't know how else you'd win. So to me, thats basically just a straight gamble. So basically I think your lack of success at NL 5 and success at other levels makes sense to me. I wouldn't make a big side bet that I could crush an NL5 game even though I do fairly well at higher stakes, its just like bingo. Even if you don't agree with my logic I still think it's a bad way to determine anything. A more accurate way would be to compare your results with the same stakes from one site to another.

With all of that being said, even if you lose at one site at NL25 and win at another site at NL25 doesn't mean there is anything weird going on at the site you are losing at. Maybe your style doesn't mesh well with the style of the LAG Easten Europeans that are everywhere on FTP. Maybe you lose there because you go into every game KNOWING you are going to lose because you don't trust the site. In any sport, how many times do you go in KNOWING you are going to lose and win? My point is there could be a ton of different reasons why you have success one place and lack success another. What I do not understand is why you keep playing on FTP. Rigged or not, I honestly don't think you will ever win on FTP. Not because of your play or antying but like I said before even if you go into a basketball game knowing you will lose, youre going to lose and poker is 100% mental. Thats why bad runs last longer for some than others. You can only run bad luck wise for so long but some players, after running bad for awhile, get it in their head that they can't win. That only prolongs the bad run. Thats why taking some time off and clearing your head always works. It's not that the time off changed your luck its just that it gets you back into a mindframe that you can win.

Honestly, I know for a fact we will never agree on this and you are one of the only people here that disagrees with me but doesn't think im a complete ass so I appreciate that. What are you trying to accomplish though? You know you aren't going to bring FTP down or anything like that. As far as warning people goes, the warnings are out there, there are a million psts on a million forums, some claiming EVERY site is rigged. The problem with the warning thing is that most people on your side tend to make weak arguments centered around 2 bad beats that they took and it comprimises your argument. I think you truly believe what you are saying and I respect that but for your own sake atleast stop playing at FTP. I don't suppose making posts reguarding it being rigged is detrimental to you but continuing to thrown money away at FTP certainly is. Not only are you likely to lose there but it can't possible be good for your poker state of mind. As I said before, if you ever want to transfer whatever money you have in your FTP account to me, I'll transfer an equal amount to your stars account.

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Tell you what VA and what odds, if 50,000 hands is enough to get proof we could easily put that together between us.

If we played 4 tables at a time and played bout 17,000 hands each, that could take us 2 weeks easy.

I wouldnt mind puttin the time in if your willing, only thing is, will FTP give us 17,000 hands history, and who will anylise the stats and at what cost .

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I just have this to add to the thread:
If you believe in miracles, they will come true on FTP.
If you believe in statistics and probability, you'd better play somewhere else.

Full tilt aint rigged, pokers rigged! It's the sickest game in the world with just the right amount of bad beats, cold decks , talent and near infinite experience to break all but the best players. A year ago i wouldve said pokerstars was rigged cos i wasnt playing well enough, blinded by bad beats and cold decks i neglected to see the real profit that comes from bankroll management, not tilting and playing worse after bad beats and playing with a logic that beats each individual player at my table.

I just played for about 4 hours, two SNG's came 1st and 2nd even though i was down to my last $200 chips in both, nice $450 win, then play cash hu, went in 3times on the turn as 80% favourite and get shafted EVERY time! Pokers a sick game that doesn't deliver results immediately but waits till your so pi**ed off and disheartened that any man would crumble and THEN it pays off your patience and hard work.

Fulltilt can't be proven to be rigged cos it's such a sick game anyway noone could tell the difference. Im 8 months into this bankroll and it's exactly where it should be, but if you think I haven't been brutally hammered by bad beats and cold decks to the point where Im sure it's rigged, your very wrong.

IT AINT RIGGED, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, FIND WHAT IT IS AND PLUG IT!

I have read the postings on this site and i must agree with what odds and nitemare6.... i have played on UB, Bodog, full tilt and a couple of other sites as well. I am not a crybaby loser as i am up $ in the long run, however I have seen enough to know that something is amiss. I play regualrly at casinos as well and i see hands live all the time where players win a 3 or 4 handed pot with Q high or similar. You almost NEVER see high card win a hand on full tilt. I am not buying the whole you see more bad beats because you are playing 3-4 times the number of hands. 3-4 times the hands would mean 3-4 times the number of hands where high card wins. I get to the point where i know if i flop top pair top kicker, I am almost certainly drawing dead, even in heads up play. the other thing i see constantly is the bigger the fish, the higher his chip lead. aytime i am playing in a touney or cash game, there is usually one donk at the table that either his strategy is all in all in all in until he either wins or is out, or someone who will call anything with any hand. I will play patiently watching this moron take out player after player with suckouts that are too unlikely to be believed, until I get a hand like AA, KK, QQ or AK. Doesnt matter what the hand is, i know he is going to suck out with his 62 off.

I started out on a pretty good run, playing position tight and agressive, but after doubling my $, I reached that point where the winning just stops for huge runs at a time. I still play the same way and it proves to be successful in live play, but I do think that bad play is rewarded way too often on these sites. BYW the same story on UB and just about every other site i have played and I am glad that I am not the only one who sees this as well... I love the game and fully believe that it is a skill game over all where solid players can make money.

I still play with the hopes that I can win a big tournament again.( i recently won a freeroll with over 3000 entries and you dont see many more donks than that!.... i won a whopping 15 dollars. )... but i take the site now with a grain of salt, knowing that i am going to lose about 70% of the hands where I am ahead and try not to play more than 3 games per day.

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so i just played another tourney... the first since my last post. sick sick sick
i am on the button with 54 which most would play probably, but i fold... the flop comes 4k5.
i think to my self "figures" but someone probably has poket Kings.... a 4 hits on the turn which would have given me a boat, but sure enough, 2 others are all in, and what does the guy to my left have????? KK... would have taken a sick cooler there. so I get crap for the next few hands and watch 3 people go all in... 2 have KK and one has A 10.... flop XXX turn 10 river 10
OMG.....
so i fold everything i see until i finally get QQ... i raise 4x and get 2 callers that limped. the flop comes 6A7... of course the scare card is there, but i dont feel like either one has it. I am out of position, but have to continue, so I do, player 2 folds player 3 calls..... next card is a 4.... I decide that the guy is on a flush draw or has like a low pocket pair or something. so i continue again, he calls... the river is a 2.... im thinking now i have the best hand, till he flips over 85......down to 450 in chips so i stay out of things until i get a hand to shove with.... AQ... there it is... same guy calls me with K 10 and spikes a 10... im out.....

WTF do i have to do to win on this site?... get a job there?

decided to play one more... mistake!
lasted only a few hands... lost a lot of chips to a dork that did not know what pot odds were, so he rode his flush draw to the river and caught it(of course)..... then raised 4x again with 88 on the button. 1 caller.... flop comes 5h 2h 8h
the guy checks and I push hard to deter any chance the guy might want to stick around with a high heart.... he calls the all in... he flips Qh 6h.
I give up!.... as soon as i can im going to cash out my money and get the FUCK away from this site

Crashbah

I started posting on this site on page 21. You appear to share my experience, that the long-term odds never play out on FTP. I have played there for the last time, thankfully. I now play at Titan Poker - real, casino-like poker, with the odds being represented in the hands you play, and the opportunity to win well if you play well.

That was always what hurt at FTP. I know my game, and I know that it's profitable, but I JUST COULD NOT WIN. Suck-out after suck-out, for months. I thought I was running bad, that it would come good in the end, but it never did. Finally, I figured it out, put in the words full-tilt-rigged into Google, and hey presto, like you I am here.

Tonight, bought in for $50 at Titan (.50, $1). Three hours later I'm looking at a nice $198 profit...a typical nights play in many ways. One bad beat where I got rivered with a 2-outer, otherwise steady progress, with one nice double-up with quad jacks. How poker should be!

Warmest regards

Cransley69

as soon as i can get my $$$ out of FTP i will try Titan

Titan poker does not accept US players....

ok - i plaeyd my DOLLAR tournament tonight - just now -

5th hand:

I have 10Jos in late pos.-- raise 4X BB - 3 callers -- flop is 10 3 7.

Guy in this hand was in an earlier hand with me abd chased a four flush to my KQ (with a Q on flop) and with 3rd suited he went all in, and I folded . So I say "no chasing four flushes Craig" and I bet all in = 2600chips. Maybe a little tilt. But both donks call me. No rasing, they call. Just like typical donks do.

River is A.

So, I have J10 - 2nd player has J10 also

BUT............. the retarded donk who called the ALL IN bet myself and another guy were all had (drumroll)

---------> AQ

In other words he called two ALL INs with NO hand. ZILCH.

However this garbage excuse for a poker site delivers him a 3 outer on the river. Please, explain how anyoen can call with 2 players ALL IN and he has absolutely nothing. No pair! Nothing. Just an A with high kicker.

The ONLY card that would help him ---->this garbage scam retarded bingo poker site gives him after he makes a call that NOBODY in the world, who knows how to play poker, would make in thsoe circumstances unless they were totally retarded or drunk.

Nightmare, I know you were pissed off when you wrote that but it's pretty harsh to call someone a retarded donk for calling your raise.

When you think about it, you went all in on a pair of 10s, which is the highest pair post-flop but it's hardly something you should go all-in on...

I would usually treat such a raise as an automatic fold but if I felt a person was liable to be bluffing then I would meet them.

So if it was me that met you and won all of your chips last night then I am not sorry, I probably felt I had a decent number of outs and you were bluffing.

With regards to FT being bullshit, it appears to be the case for all online sites. When I first signed up to PartyPoker and Full Tilt I did so well... I had all the best cards when I needed them and it seemed like the poker God's were on my side :P but then the bad cards and ridiculous bad beats arise (just after I place 5th in a tourney and I'm in the money). Also, whenever I make a deposit I start winning again...

So yea I am getting my money back asap. Btw, was the name of the person who beat you last night Fishwins?

I don't think that was his name. Think his name was "Retarded Donk"

lol

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