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bad_dog76 07-03-08 10:07 AM

Hey mike, glad to see we agree on something lol!

But yeah, AJ is a good hand to raise with (especially in late position) but if someone comes over the top of you, you have to realize that AJ is beaten by so many hands, and (much like my AQ up above) there are much better places to put all your chips in the pot.

I just found it funny that they guy would get quad aces though LOL! I mean how many times can possibly run into quads.
And hell, at least 66 vs AJ is a coin flip. QQ vs AJ, QQ is 73% to win.

mrkromer 07-03-08 11:43 AM

Re: Quads
I've probably seen quads in a game 4 times in the last 3 years, that's live.

Online, I've probably seen them 25 times or so in that same period. And flushes online? Wow, they are so regular I'm scared to death of a suited board.

P.S., play AJ everytime in blackjack. lol


bad_dog76 07-03-08 12:21 PM

<<P.S., play AJ everytime in blackjack. lol>>

LOL! Thanks for the tip

simo1981 07-03-08 02:13 PM

Found this whilst browsing a forum. its probably rigged but the chat is priceless: [url]http://www.wtfpokerstars.ytmnd.com/[/url]

bad_dog76 07-03-08 09:58 PM


That was awesome Simo!

Love the song too!

simo1981 07-05-08 04:48 AM

Hey I assume all you full tilt players get the regular emails "Tips from the Pros". Well the latest one is from Full tilt pro Jordan 'iMsoLucky0' Morgan, regarding moving from online play to live play. Well after i sharkscoped him, id LOVE to play him live!!!! LMFAO.

Ant8472 07-05-08 10:54 PM

I would have expected my luck to turn around a bit after a month solid of bad beats but my awful luck continues. The only reason I persevere with FT is because living in Australia, the only site that has a good large tournament around the $10 mark is FT. It is difficult to ignore the Daily Doubles and the Midnight Madness.
Today my sour luck continued. It gets so frustrating I want to pull my hair out. Opponents seem to always catch cards. Not sometimes, but always. If I get AK someone has KK or AA. Playing well and reading hands makes no difference. *And you can't slow play for the life of you*.
Slow playing a great hand is a profitable move, especially if you can fold a hand that is beaten. On FT you cannot slow play. Your opponent will always catch. For instance, I had two pair on a flop with no straight or flush draws. I slow played it. My opponent had A9 after the flop. He basically had nothing. He got runner runner nines. When I saw 99 on the board I knew he had a 9 in his hand. He put in a third pot bet and with two pair, one is correct to play. On FT you always have to be suspicious. You can't trust anything that happens on that site.
I have been losing constantly for a month on this site, yet I played in one solitary tournament on Bodog with 196 people and came 4th. The difference is stark. People will fold on other sites. They don't always catch their cards.
The way I see it, you have to adjust your game entirely on FT. Playing correct or skilled poker based on probabilities is not an option if you want to make a profit on FT. The only way is to be patient and make sure you have your opponent beat before you call their all in. I have learnt that I can't take their big overbet as a bluff or a bad play. Usually, on FT it means they have a made monster hand. I often find myself calling these kinds of bets because it doesn't make intuitive probabilistic sense that they keep catching their cards, but sure enough, they did catch that lucky card and knock you out.
I have sent them emails and I am unable to discover any ombudsman, or independent regulatory body that I can turn to to lodge a complaint or an enquiry. One is entirely at the mercy of the site and we play entirely at our own peril.
I never seem to get a personalised response when I complain about the incessant bad luck I get. Just broad sweeping template letters about how it is not rigged and to think you are getting a bad deal on the cards is a perceptual thing. Bullshit I say. I can see the difference.
I've started playing at the casino in the last few months and the difference in the distribution of luck is clear to me. Bad beats happen but not as often, even when taking into account the greater frequency of cards. Furthermore, statistically, a player will improve their hand on average one time in three on the flop. On FT it seems to be more like 95% of the time that a player improves on his hand.

simo1981 07-06-08 01:22 AM

Its true, AA, KK QQ etc is all in pre flop so the bloke holding 3 7 has to bet his whole stack to catch 4 5 and on the river 6. Often they will call it anyway so what can you do.

Ant8472 07-08-08 07:38 AM

Full Tilt is ridiculous. I can't win a sit'n'go anymore. I've been knocked out on the bubble 4 times in a row in S't'n'go's and haven't made the money in about 10. I used to make the money, on average, twice every 5 times, 40%. When I was a complete beginner I was doing better than I am now.
I've had it with Full Tilt. I've got $5 left in my account. After I piss it up against another rigged game I will give FT a rest for about a month or two. It sounds like hogwash but some people I've spoken to swear that if you stay off for about a month your luck is restored.

nitemare6 07-10-08 10:07 PM

so I play in a freeroll again tonight after not playing on the rigged site for a few days. Holding my own even though I get no cards while all kinds of donks are winning hands that they ought not to even be in or not win at all. Of course I finally get AKs and have a guy raise 4X bb - I re-raise 600 and the donk comes with an all-in bet of 14000 chips to my 4100. He was playing like a donk earlier so I dont put him on AA. Well he has AJos vs. my AKs. Now this guy is a sure rank newbie since he overvalued AJ which is a comon play of newbies, particularly after I re-rasied. In fact some players might have layed it down rather than go heads-up agasint the re-raiser in a heads-up pot. Nope! Not this typical F-rigged-tilt donk. So what is the flop? Well of coures it ain't a K or an A. Nope. It's xxJ and then two small cards. So I lose to a donk that was dominated and should not even have bet all-in to begin with!! Total scam poker site. But at least it didn't cost be anything.

kkk777 07-11-08 02:19 AM

is just clearly rigged so bad players win.
Played a bunch of $10, 90 player sngs

on every all in - w 3 or more players - 10 9 os, Q 8, whatever awful hand
it always

mrkromer 07-11-08 10:01 AM

This one seemed a bit odd, I sat at a .50/1 6 handed cash game where max buy in is $100. One person at the table has over $500, so I'm leary. 3rd hand I get AA, all in against a different guy with KK, aces held up so I win $105 right off the bat. 2 hands later, I have AA again, 2 raises in front of me, I reraise from $4 to $17, the huge stack calls. Flop is garbage with 2 spades, I bet out $40, call. Turn spade, I bet $80, call. River, J diamonds, I'm all in, guy calls, had q10 spades for turned flush.

3 other hands he won while I was still sitting, his 34 turned quads against a flush, his 99 against jj rivered a straight, and his A3 against KK hit trip 3s on flop.

He had over $750 when I stood. It was ridiculous.


nitemare6 07-11-08 10:51 PM

OK. so I played in a $1 45/SNG. Of course I get dealt a three 8 out of the first 15 hands - literally. No joke. Anyway I am down to 1000 chips after 30 hands of being card dead and I get A6. I called a 3x BB raise and >>>tell the guy in chat that I have A6 suited - LOL! So the turn comes and he checks. Ok? So I go all in. Guess what? I got him beat like I thought. He has Qx and I got A6. Anyone have a guess what the river was (you only get ONE guess?) Of course I am sure it had nothing to do with me being short stacked. Oh no! On Full Rigged Tilt joker poker??? Come on!!!!

nitemare6 07-11-08 10:54 PM

yes - he called -- even after I told him what I had and he knew I was best into the river.

simo1981 07-11-08 11:47 PM

After copping the most ridiculous bad beat on the river (on the bubble) in a token tier 1 i decided to send a little email to full tilt. As of now i have not receioved a reply but i will post it here as soon as I do (that is if i do).
"Ever since i last cashed out i have suffered an absolute BULLSHIT amount of bad beats on the river by other players hitting ABSOLUTE FUCKING BULLSHIT draw cards. Please tell me something. I would like the name of the company who has independently tested your site's random number generator. I play on 2 of your competitors sites and they have the information readily and publicly available. Please tell me, has full tilt poker had theirs independently tested (yes or no) and if yes, by whom and when, and where can i access the results."

nitemare6 07-12-08 12:14 PM

i have written them 7-8 times to the point where they have said they would not reply to anymore email. They will reply and give you some sympathy; then assure you that everything is fine and that s-t happens blah blah!

simo1981 07-13-08 02:34 AM

As promiosed here is ftp's reply. How ironic that just before i checked my email this happened: HU game i flop two pair, 2 and 3. However there are 3 clubs on the board. being short stacked only 480 chips, i go all in. Player calls with a Kc4d, on a flush draw. I dont want to see another club! And i didnt, turn 4, river K. it really doesnt matter what ftp say in this reply, ITS FULL OF SHIT, but a promise is a promise, so here it is:**********
Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.

Our shuffling and dealing processes utilize a powerful random number generator (RNG) that incorporates several features to ensure randomness and a fair game for all players.

Our RNG uses three separate sources which apply algorithms to generate 32-bit random numbers. The three random numbers are then XORed together to generate a new random number. XORing a random number against any other number produces a new number equally random to the preceding numbers. So even if two out of the three sources failed to generate sufficiently random numbers, the final XORed number will still be random provided at least one of the three given numbers is random.

This holds true as long as the two numbers are uncorrelated, so it's critical that all the different values come from independent sources. If the numbers were correlated, the randomness could be cancelled by the XOR operation.

To ensure true randomness, our RNG uses several redundant and independent sources including two different pseudo-RNGs and a physical source:

1) The ISAAC pseudo-RNG.
2) The OpenSSL pseudo-RNG.
3) A hardware RNG that has a physical source of entropy.

We are evaluating several well-known auditing firms and hope to have our shuffling and dealing processes officially audited in the near future.

Our business depends on providing our players with a fair and unbiased game, and we do exactly that. We hope we?ve answered your concerns, but if we can be of further assistance, please let us know.


Ant8472 07-16-08 07:24 AM

It is their typical response. They keep giving me their template responses such as this. A couple of times I started to get good luck for a short time after I complained.

nitemare6 07-16-08 10:04 PM

Finished first in a 555 player SNG. Must say I won not because hands held up on full-rigged but by great playing and strategic check-raising, bluffing, limping and laying down hands most would call or push with. I only saw about 22% of hands, and those that I went to the T with I won 75% at least. Also won hands with top pair Ilike 6s or 8s flopped) which has nto happened on FRT in a long time!! Ironically I had just wrote them asking how I could cash out (since epassporte wasn't an option any longer and that's how I deposited).

nitemare6 07-16-08 10:17 PM

So I sit down at a 10/25 (6) table and fold the first hand (36os) THE VERY NEXT HAND I get dealt Qs. This is 6-handed. So I limp in and get a raise to 1.50 and re-raise to 4.75, and of course the loser goes all in. I have him covered and call the raise only because I know donks go all in withput Ks or As. So what does he have? AKos??!! Now tell me......... did full rigged deal an A on the flop or did Qs hold up?! This was the 2nd hand I played on full rigged in 3 months. You can't win in their rigged cash games.

nitemare6 07-16-08 10:20 PM

Remember I just asked them how to cash out about 5 days ago.

simo1981 07-16-08 11:28 PM

After i got a reply to the rng email i replied accusing them of having a cash out curse (after yet another shocking run of bad beats). i will post their reply soon

simo1981 07-16-08 11:30 PM

HERE IS THEIR REPLY**********Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.

In the past players have claimed that there must be a 'cashout curse' mechanism, a system that punishes players for withdrawing funds. Besides being nearly impossible to do, we would be foolish to jeopardize our entire reputation and business in an effort to make extra money off a few players.

The so-called curse is more likely a trick of perception. Consider that a smaller bankroll will cause more panic if you lose a fixed amount of money than a larger bankroll. For example, if you have $400 in your account and lose $100, you would have lost 25% of your bankroll. While this may be somewhat troubling, it will not induce panic. If you had withdrawn $200, the same $100 loss would represent half your bankroll and will cause panic. This will lead some players to go on tilt, play progressively worse and lose more money and eventually go broke.

Unfortunately, with a smaller bankroll, your probability of ruination is much higher. If you continued to play at stakes that you may have been winning at prior to your large cashout, your bankroll may not have been sufficient to handle the swings of the game.

In other words, the cashout curse is real. But it isn't because Full Tilt threw a switch, it is just everyday statistics at play.

For a more detailed, statistical examination of the so-called 'cashout curse', this is a very thorough article:


With regards to the authenticity of our RNG, our players provide us with constant empirical testing and verification of our RNG. Unlike live games, all online hands are recorded in the form of a hand history. With many players using tracking programs such as PokerTracker, hands are scrutinized by the poker playing community, and any deviation outside of expected variance will be found very quickly with hundreds of thousands of hands being played everyday. There are players that have hundreds of thousands of personal hand histories saved in databases, and a dysfunctional RNG would be easy to spot.

If there's anything else we can help you with, please feel free to ask. Best of luck at the tables!


Poker Specialist
Full Tilt Poker Support

simo1981 07-16-08 11:31 PM

So I guess what he is saying is that when my straight or set gets drowned on the river by an improbable runner runner boat or 4 runner flush, it isnt a bullshit rigged bad beat, i was on tilt and playing recklessly and shouldnt have been in the hand to begin with??? lol.

nitemare6 07-17-08 10:57 AM

So i go back to the cash games (.10/.25 table) and miracuously double my bankroll at two tables and end up winning another approx $45 in 25 mintues on top of the $138. Now I had just written email about 30 minutes earlier to ask them if Qs EVER hold up on FRT. Guess what? I get Qs and find myself in a hand with a guy with J10. Flop comes AQKc. He flops a str8 and I flop a set. So we end up all in! Turn is 8d. Anyone have a guess what the river card was!??? Anyone? Yep it was a ONE outer! I got the last QUEEN and the poor guy leaves the table with me saying "sorry bro that is sick"! Do you think my letter had anything to do with this? And who did shoot John Kennedy!? :-) By the way, I meant to say that I won a 555 plyr "tournament" and not a "sng".

mrkromer 07-17-08 01:18 PM

Not quite
That's far from a 1 outer. You could have hit the q, an 8, ace or king, so you had 10 outs.


nitemare6 07-17-08 04:54 PM

LOL- true ( i told my math professor buddy that after I posted it) - TY

nitemare6 07-18-08 05:36 PM

OK. So I sit down a few minutes ago to fool around on a 10/25 cent (6) table. FIRST hand: I get J10 and raise 3x BB. One call. Flop 79J all hearts. I bet 75% of pot. Call. Turn is 8h. FOUR running hearts. Now this is the third time today in the few hands I played in between doing other things that I have seen FOUR FKING RUNNERs. And mind you this in in a very small space of time. Anyone else notice how many times we see FOUR runners to give some guy a hand and allow him to beat out 2p or TP etc.??! Its a farce. I guarantee if anyone did an analysis of this site they would find 4 running flushes and straights hit WAY more than real probablities would dictate. Just my opinion. Anyway sure enough the guy has Ah2c and wins the pot. I leave the table since its just no fun playing with this kind of dealing; it's not the amount of money its what others have said many times. I just know I play far too good to constantly lose hands I should win. The only possible thing one could say about the above hand is that I did not push all in in hopes that he would fold his flush draw. But in my view I might have merely built a pot for some donk to cash in on. "Full Rigged Tilt: the most flawed non-random dealing on the Net to bring out the donk in each of you!"

nitemare6 07-18-08 05:53 PM

Played last evening in a tournie and the guy I played heads=up with at the final table of the tournament I won was there and we were conversing. SO I am gettign othign and keep folding. No chance for even a semi bluff. Just the same cards liek a 2 or 3 or 4 over and over in different combinations with J or 8 or 9 or 10. Ever have that happen?! So I finally get As and luckily I am in the BB. We get a few limps and one guy rasies it up to 600 so there is a nice pot (approx 1500). I re-raise to 2400 since I need to get chips and don't mind if guys fold since I am not going to slow play. The guy who raised says "damn do you have As?" He then raises me 700 and I am all in. He shows Ks. Guess what the full rigged tilt flop delivers where I am a 81% favorite. Sure enough he gets a K. TWO outer hits again. The guy from the other tournie says "that is such BS"! Yep bro, its a total joke how this site deals cards. Like many have said its NOT that these things don't happen in holdem poker. The math and probability says ANYTHING "COULD" happen. It just happens way to often for anyone to believe this is truly random dealing as with a deck of 52! I don't know how programmers skew these hands or how they set it up to deliver this bs dealing like the above. But I have trouble believing (DUE TO THE TIMING OF THESE BEATS) that this is rondom. In this case I was short stacked and it behooves FRT to get out the short stacks. It behooves them to set up hands like the above more to increase rakes on cash game tables. It behooves an online site to cheat players. Heck why do athletes keep taking drugs when they know they might get caught and lose thier livelihoods, reputations and more???! Why the heck do people ever cheat. Well they do and its usually money. That is why I think FRT is playing games with us and its not a real "poker game"!

Ant8472 07-20-08 02:09 AM

After 3 weeks of not playing on Full Tilt I decided to give it another go. Lately I've been playing a lot more at the casino and have stayed away from online under the allusion that the sites are rigged. I still play but a little less often and I've stayed away from Full Tilt altogether for 3 weeks.

I got back onto Full Tilt with a clearer head after some time off and having won some money at the casino which restored my confidence that I can actually play this game for a profit.
I considered this a fresh start. It did not take me long to see that the way the cards fall on Full Tilt is very different to how they fall at the casino. I could not hit any cards. I hardly got any playable cards. When I did get playable cards I caught nothing on the flop. I mean absolutely nothing. Over a period of 2 hours and 3 tournaments I could not catch anything on the flop. I was playing dead. I couldn’t win a hand. There is no way in the world that someone can tell you it is the way you play that creates the poor results when you get no playable cards and catch nothing on the flop. The best player in the world can't do much with that. You can only bluff so much and on an aggressively and fishy online site in $10 tournaments, bluffing is seldomly the right move.
The difference between the luck I was having online and the luck I have at the casino is immensely different. It seems more obvious to me now how rigged Full Tilt is.
People who advocate that online sites are not rigged will often argue that it can seem like someone gets a lot of bad beats online because the hands go faster and it will seem like they are getting more bad beats. Well I argue the exact opposite. Should one also catch a lot more cards and win alot more pots online than live, particularly if they play more than one table at a time? There are more cards being dealt online and I am catching very few cards yet at the casino I hit hands quite regularly. At least one in every 2 or 3 hands, I am hitting something worth playing onto the turn and river at the casino. Maybe I am hitting top pair or middle pair with a draw, maybe I am hitting it hard with a set or trips or a draw. On Full Tilt I couldn’t hit a thing today, not even middle pair. The flop antagonized me every hand I played.
I had literally 3 very good hands all afternoon and they all got me knocked out.
I was knocked out with AA, KK and AK in 3 different tournaments. I had my aces cracked by someone who called my raise when they had J9 suited. They got their flush. I had KK in another tournament. As soon as I saw KK I said in the message window ‘this is the hand that gets me knocked out’. Short stacked I went all in with my KK. Someone called me with AQ and they got their A on the river. Again, short stacked in another tournament I called an all in with AK. My opponent had TT and his tens held up. My aces and kings couldn’t hold up but his tens held up.
I know that hand for hand my results don’t sound spectacularly unlucky but when you look at the whole picture it reeks of negative programming designed to make you lose. I've never been that unlucky over a sustained period of time anywhere live or on any other online site.
Before I had live experience I wasn’t sure what to think of all the bad beats and dead flops, but with the exposure to the casinos and live games it is clearly evident that I am getting incredibly bad luck online. It is not mathematically feasible that my luck can be that bad.
For the record my ROI is 150% at the casinos and about -40% on Full Tilt.
No wonder I am always on tilt on Full Tilt.

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