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simo1981 05-19-08 12:37 AM

Everyones suspicions are well founded
The reason im here is that i was VERY suspicious of full tilt being rigged. Ill let you be the judge:
Omaha Hi $2/$4 game. i play my kk, call a raiser. Flop is K A 2. Check my trip kings, player goes all in. Call (thinking if he has A A, good luck to him). Pot is $307. He has A A. Turn Card: K. Great, quads:). River Card: You guessed it: A. Two sets of quards in the one hand busted me.
I had the shits so i was giving the table a piece of my mind as observer when the EXACT same thing happened 3 hands later. Quad Kings busted by quad Aces. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
What you do with your money is up to you but i know what ill be doing with mine.
Full Tilt is NOT poker.

mrkromer 05-19-08 08:23 PM

Online poker is nuts
Just at a sit n go, 45 people 6.50 turbo, here's the hands I watched lose:

KK vs. 44, aj vs. a10, 1010 vs. 77, 88 vs. 77, ak vs. a2 (not a 2, rivered a straight!); all of these were all ins where the underdog had more chips. It was such a fucking joke but I wasn't surprised at all. I've finally given up on online poker; it just can't be trusted I don't think.

wannabango 05-20-08 02:39 PM

Still no money from Fulltit, received another e-mail that said "Friday May 23rd at the absolute latest". Ridiculous, as for the play, I've had $120 left over (check previous post) it's gone down to $10 and back to $120 three times now. I've been doing some experimenting and found that at different times of day that the odds are different. I'm on the east coast and found that in the morning, the odds are more realistic (still wacky, but a bit more realistic). My theory is the odds get worse later in the day because that's when more of the Americans are playing. But at night, that's when the odds are INSANE, I've actually used 2HighIsTheNutz theory on making the lower odd calls and have won with it, this strategy worked better at night.

2HighIsTheNutz 05-21-08 04:20 AM

FTP hell continues
Well it continues. It's completely unreal. Is it statistically possible to lose 30 18-man SNGs? I mean, you could click randomly and still finish ITM (top 4) at least 1/30 times I would think. I cannot win a big pot to save my life. Two memorable highlights: I FINALLY flopped a set for the first time in who knows how long - one limper along for the ride. Pocket 9s in the big blind. Bet on each street, guys just calling. There was an A on the flop, so nothing overly suspicious in his calling. Finally pull the trigger on the river after nothing scary comes up - guy has pocket A's for the over-set. I give him credit for the risky limp with aces, but what can I do? Nothing. Another time, flopped a 9-K straight with my J-9. Bet, bet, bet. Guy catches runner-runner flush. Whenever I'm short-stacked on the bubble (which is basically every single time now) the times I DO make it to the bubble, I have yet to win a race. Not a single one. In all those times. If I win ONE race, I double up and I'm ITM. Not a single damn time. About 75% of the time it's a guy calling my all-ins when I have JJ,QQ,KK (I always get AA in the big blind and it's folded to me - unreal I tell you) with a weak ace. Ace comes EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's gotten so bad that the only thing I do now is try and guess whether it's going to come out on the flop, turn, or river. Sometimes the monsters never come, so I have to push with A-rag or a couple of face cards. The game will go like 5 orbits with everyone folding to a raise, then when I stick my neck out the guy right in front of me (always directly in front of me) has a monster (usually A-K). It feels so set up. I used to get frustrated, but now I'm almost having fun with it because it's so ridiculous. When my entire bankroll is destroyed (NEVER happened before) in the next few days, I'll be glad it's finally over. Goodbye Full Tilt Poker. Thanks for completely ruining my love for the game.

I talked to a few players in one SNG to see if this has been something others have observed. Well, I'll tell you, did I ever open a can of worms. A lot of the profitable players (like I used to be) are really frustrated lately. If I had the time I'd check the results of showdowns between veteran players and new sign-ups. Two thoughts here: there was a recent amateur article released widely giving a step-by-step on how to make a poker bot, and I wonder if this has created some activity in the programming community? Also, I wonder whether (this has been mentioned before) there is some sort of edge given to new signups so that they don't get cleaned out as soon as they sign up and never come back. Give them a few wins and get them hooked maybe? If FTP was truly rigged my guess is that as the motive.

Anyway, I don't know what to make of this anymore. All I know is that making +EV plays has been causing me to lose money over an extended period. We're talking ~2500 hands here. And a lot of players are making really strange calls that have been paying off big MUCH MUCH TOO OFTEN. Defies common sense. Maybe players run insanely bad like this from time to time, I don't know. Anyone comment on this?

2HighIsTheNutz 05-21-08 04:29 AM

LOL. Just finished my latest. Short stacked. K-Q on the button. Everyone folds to me. All-in. SB (the big stack, of course) calls with Q-4 suited. Hits the flush. Oh man. Why do I even subject myself to this crap? I don't even remember what it's like to win a hand that's the favourite. It's like a distant memory. I have enough money to play 8 more. I'll post the hilarious ending for each one in a new series I'll call "FTP: Triumphs of the Big Stacked and Stupid".

2HighIsTheNutz 05-21-08 06:19 AM

Holy crap folks. I finished ITM!!!!! It's a miracle I tell you, a miracle! The exit wasn't even that bad: K-10o vs Q-3s (the monster stack) and the 3 hits. But I can live with that, since I was only a 60:40% favorite. And I only had to lose 30 in a row in order to accomplish this major feat. I can only hope this is the start of the long recovery process, and I had to play insanely weak-tight in order to accomplish the money finish. Basically playing to avoid the bad beats, which is not a good long-term strategy. But at this point, I felt I had no choice since the switch got flipped on me. Maybe the next one will be more of the same, we'll see.

2HighIsTheNutz 05-21-08 11:53 PM

Second money finish in a row, playing the same pussy style. I noticed a LOT of extremely tight play on FTP too. Only one wildman, who sucked out on a few smaller stacks before getting caught in a stupid move by an even bigger stack. Bigger stack always gets there - that's the 1st Law of FTP. I finished in the last money spot because my KhKd all-in got called by the big stack with 9d10d. Hits the flush of course. The curse of the Kings continues. Word to the wise - if you're on FTP NEVER go all-in against a big stack if possible. Push against smaller stacks, and call their all-ins with any two cards - seriously.

SimplyConfuzed 05-23-08 01:43 PM

Hi. First Post. I played FTP, frustratingly for many months last year. I'm a decent player, but not a superstar by any means. I started well, getting in the money about as often as I would expect last year. Then things started going bad. I kept track of the hands that were busting me in SNG's, and I quickly noticed a pattern. I lost almost all races - 27 in a row at one point. Wow!

It was enough for me to realize that this is likely rigged. To favor whom? Not sure, but you've probably read all the theories below. Anyway, I took several months off, only to start up again last month.

I played the $11+1 9 player turbo sng's exclusively. I won (first place) 5 of the first 7 I played, often with unbelievable circumstances. I came back from 50 chips to finish second once, and came back from 300 a couple more times to win. My first thought was, well, I took a long time off, perhaps the FTP factor was switched to my favor. (I still think this)...

I continued play until yesterday, and now I'm done again. Since my little winning streak where any bet I made won, I have lost pretty much every bet I've made. I've had about 15 bad beat tourneys in a row now, and it has become obvious that the FTP factor is now directly against me. I haven't spent all the winnings from the previous up run, so I'll probably take another several months off, and see if I can turn the FTP factor back on again by my recusal...

All the best, and PLEASE don't gamble with money you need on FTP. It's a serious waste...

kingbobthetwentyseventh 05-23-08 01:52 PM

Just going to add my two cents here. I was playing a Hold'em SnG on FTP. After many hands, and a couple beats, I'm dealt Ah As. A couple players fold, some call, and one guy goes all in. This guy had been raising a lot and stealing pots, and I was getting sick of him. I was also far from being the chip leader, so I decided I might as well, since I probably wasn't going to get a better chance to double up. He showed 10c 10d. I thought to myself "I've got him! Just hope he doesn't catch a 10." Flop: 3d 5d Jd. Turn: 8d. It was at this point, that I decided to stop playing Full Tilt. I didn't lose my house or anything there, but this kinda garbage just sucks the fun out of poker. Giving him a 10 would have been a fair beat, but 4 diamonds in a row is just bending me over and going to town. Does anyone know what the odds are of this happening with a real deck? Anyhow, I'm quite certain Full Tilt is rigged. I've seen plenty of BS on FTP, and I'm sick of it. This wasn't my first bad beat on FTP, but it will be the last. What they say is true. If you want to play a fair game of poker, go to real table.

nitemare6 05-23-08 02:45 PM

This site is a fking scam. Was playing heads-up today and yesterday. I get KKs and that is the time that other player gets AA. Now it's not that players don't get AA/KK showdowns in real poker. Rather it's how often this seems to happen on here, and the timing of it. I go in with A5 and a 59X flops. Now in real poker its poosible tht other player does not have a 9. But on Full RIGGED Tilt it almost always flops cards that hit both players. AND MIND YOU this is heads-up!!!! In fact I went to try heads-up so I could once and for all find out if this site might be legit as some allege! But of course you have too many action hands in order for them to get greater rakes! They set-up hands so you have to play them; ergo pots get biggger. As I said before this FTP is allegedly run by a bunch of cheats and they scam money by juicing hands. There is no doubt in my mind and others choose to believe what PR guys for this site claim. This is not random dealing. When you play here skill doesn't matter as much as it should, because like I said, there are hands that you have to play and expect to win a reasonable amount of times. But on Full RIGGED tilt the odds and probabilities are all OUT OF WHACK to any poker reality. Give your money to charity or to your family rather than waste it on what many believe to be a dishonorable poker site.

nitemare6 05-23-08 02:58 PM

I also agree that this scam excuse for a "poker" site deals far too many runner runner runner runner flushes and runer runner runner straights. OH I KNOW....... this is because they deal so many hands each hour that this crap is more likley to happen. OH YEAH??? Well if that is so why don't we see MORE hands where NO ONE HAS A PAIR or GARBAGE WINS OR bluffing wins with A or Q or 9 high or 72 ? Please explain that!! Just because we see more deals per day/per hour how does that translate into MORE HIGH HANDS? THAT is just GARBAGE. IF there is MORE hands dealt then we should see more GARBAGE hands also. Right ?! The distribution should be random. Right?!!! Who was it who said " ther is a sucker born every minute"? FTP is for suckers and newbies!

nitemare6 05-23-08 03:18 PM

OK. So I go back and play one hand on F-rigged-T and wouldn't you know it in the FIRST HAND I hit a str8. Only problem its the fourth diamond on the board. Since the betting was low since I am not committed so when he raises on the river I lay it down. I lay a (nut) straight down due to FTP's rigged RNG that deals too improbably high hands in a heads-up game and needs to generate FOUR runners to flush my opponent. Although it was possible he had it on turn (with 3 diamonds on board) he did not bet it until river diamond hit. How do you spell "SCAM"?!

nitemare6 05-23-08 07:16 PM


This site is just as rigged as it was then and they do have shill players who get bettter cards! Prove I am wrong!

j bays
September 28, 2005
this has got to be the most unrealistic site out there just today i was playing i got A K someone else got A K someone else got 10 10 and someone else got J J and the flop was A K 10. that never happens

September 28, 2005
Full Tilt Poker is absolutely RIGGED. I have conducted a concerted study of them over many months, and they are cheating players for sure. Make no doubt it if you are targeted by them in any way, you will not receive cards and will get more bad beats than is possible under even the most liberal probability scenarios. It is a rigged site, and needs to be investigated soon given that American pro poker players are endorsing it therby giving it an air of credibility when there is none. Further I believe based upon my observations that they have shill players who get favorable card treatment! Do NOT play on this site or any others unless you don't mind being cheated. Notice how some claim only poor/losing players complain. This is not true. It is reverse. In fact it is the newer and poor players are too "stupid", and inexperienced to know any better. Not the better players like me.

nitemare6 05-23-08 07:28 PM

this guy is right from earlier this year!

February 24, 2008
I'd like to address both nitemare6 and AmericanDrifter. First off, nitemare6, your example of being beat by AQ with KQ is not a bad beat, nor is it anything out of the ordinary. It is nearly the same as getting beat with a pair of queens King kicker when someone has pair of queens Ace kicker. Anytime u have trips with a paired board, you are always in danger of losing to a higher kicker or a full house. AmericanDrifter, while I agree that people who post a single example of a bad beat and then call the site rigged lack sufficient evidence to back up their claim, saying that "bad beats are more memorable" does nothing to prove that certain sites aren't rigged, or aren't rigged to cheat certain players at the very least. Yes, bad beats do happen, but they happen in a certain proportion to the number of times a favored hand should win, depending on the number of outs. If this proportion does not hold up, there is something wrong with the site. I am not a statistics major or even a math major, so I do not have the education nor the time to pore through my entire hand history and offer the proof that Full Tilt is bogus. However, I am smart enough to know that people with 4 outs or less on the flop should win less than 20% of the time when the money goes all in. It was extremely clear to me during my run at Full Tilt that this was not the case. I was losing to people with ridiculous draws far more than I was winning. All sites are NOT the same. To date, I have made money playing low stakes no limit at Paradise Poker, Bodog, and Players Only. The only two times I have ever cashed out at Full Tilt was 1.) after I placed in a tournament and 2.) after I decided I would never play at the site again. Do you mean to tell me that the players at the low stakes tables (.05 .10 - .25 .50) at Full Tilt are so much better that my strategy holds up on all those other sites but not there? Many Full Tilt enthusiasts like to use the "tinfoil hat" argument and claim paranoia among the "losers" who think the site is rigged. To those I say this: aliens at Area 52 is a conspiracy theory. A business outside of U.S. jurisdiction cheating American players out of their money is far from a strech to imagine. If you still find it hard to wrap your head around the fact that such deception is possible, here you go: 1. Enron 2. Martha Stewart 3. Watergate 3. Watergate In conclusion, I'm not slamming online poker. I love the site I'm playing at now and will continue to play there and (most likely) win. However, I refuse to stand idly by and say nothing about a site (Full Tilt) that I feel has truly ripped me off. I will tell everyone I know (and those I don't) that playing at Full Tilt is a dangerous bet.

2HighIsTheNutz 05-24-08 02:27 AM

I've seen some funky, funky stuff since I returned to FTP to blow the rest of my measly remaining bankroll. For one thing I can't pick up a hand. It's totally normal to sit through 20-30 hands without getting anything better than Q-4 or similar. I'm a fairly tight player, but I'll play the usual pairs, face cards, suited connectors, and the occasional gapped connector if I'm in late position. I'm very disciplined about not playing weak aces, and have even taken suited weak aces out of my repetoire at the starting stages of a tourney. They're just too much trouble. That puts me in around standard 15-20% range to get into a pot. The last dozen or so times I've had KK it's been busted by crap (see previous posts) and the last few times I've had AA it's been in the big blind and somehow everyone gets a sixth sense and folds to me. Actually I had AA in one of those FTP point tourneys and finally got some action - I raise pre-flop, guy goes over the top and of course I call. He shows, of course, AA as well. Just another day at the tables at FTP.

LOL. I'm at a final table right now. The short stack went all-in on the button with K-8. Lead stack in the BB calls with K-7. Do I even need to reveal the result? 7 comes out on the flop. And I just went out with A-Qo versus 8-5s, and he hits the 5. Same guy. I'm almost broke now and I honestly can't wait.

2HighIsTheNutz 05-25-08 04:36 AM

Well that's all she wrote. I'm finally broke. Watched my AA get cracked 4x in a row tonight. The best was the three way all-in with AA vs. QQ and JJ. Short stack had the jacks, the guy with queens had us both covered. Didn't even bat an eye when the third Q came out. Runner up was the A-A vs. A-5 that hit the straight. It's every single time now. Can't win a big hand, it's that simple. I'm sorry, say what you want about variance/running bad/etc. etc. but I don't think it's statistically possible to lose that many times when in a dominate position without some "help". More than my fair share? Maybe, sometimes. A couple in a row? It happens. But this many times in succession? No way. Something's fishy, and you're crazy to put real money into this site. And to all you "winning" players and friends of "winning" players - enjoy the fantasy while you have it. I went almost a year playing profitable poker. There were of ups and downs, but when they finally decide it's time for you to step aside and flip the switch on you, good luck. It WILL happen to you.

2HighIsTheNutz 05-27-08 03:28 AM

Update. Signed up at PokerStars. SNG results:

1. NLHE, 27 players, finished 2nd
2. NLHE, 9 players, finished 2nd
3. HORSE, 8 players, finished 2nd
4. NLHE, 9 players, finished 7th
5. NLHE, 18 players, finished 18th
6. NLHE, 10 players, finished 1st

Hm. 4/6 ITM. Who knows, maybe they've got the rigging set up for new players like I think FTP does, but I'm going to take this as a strong indicator that my game was not to blame for going broke there. Also, maybe there's some hope that my game wasn't completely ruined from the crap at FTP like I was afraid it would be. PokerStars has a lot of the same crazy calls, and there were some insane beats, but the former were rewarded at the rate one would expect and the latter happened at a frequency that was reasonable.

DannyGulliver 05-27-08 09:18 PM

I got some remarkable info. I was playing Stud Hi $2-$4 and had AAK. Playing against another playing making my hand AA KK9T 5 (just two pair, missed flushed too). The cards of the other player that I saw were .. J33J . He finally showed me TK J33J 3 and he won. I got reraised on the 5th, 6th and 7th street and the pot was > $50. I wrote that he was very lucky with his 7th street. What a chaser! His respons was that I had it wrong, he made his boat (full house) on the 6th street. I checked it, and checked it. Noop, on the 7th. Than other players agreed that it was on the 6th street...

My idea is that the chronology of cards is maybe messed up. I've been beaten on the 7th street (again and again and again...:( ) and my opponent wins on the 6th street. So for his point of view he value betted on the (6th) and 7th, and I felt that I had another bad beat.

Maybe this is the reason that pokerplayers are confronted with so many bad beats and suckouts... impossible calls etc.

kriskris911 06-03-08 11:53 PM

I have been playing poker for a few years and live two hours away from atlantic city and play live 2-5 games there. I have sat in ring games for 32 hours straight and never have had so many bad beats as I do on Full tilt in a matter of minutes. I started with 50$ and in one day made it to 200$. That wasn't because I was getting hands, it was bc I was playing poker, making good calls, knowing my odds and bluffing people out of pots. I withdrew so I had 50$ left.
Very next day this is what happens:
4 hands in a row at one table:
Pocket aces, player pushes me all in with pocket kings, turn and river were both kings (lost 20.00).
AQ on button, player re-raises. I call. Flop has queen, player puts me all in, I call. Player has JJ. Turn is an ace, river is a Jack. (15)
AK, player AT(Hearts). flop 6h Kd 5C He goes all in for 132.00. I make a great call and he gets runner runner hearts(lost 25.00)
I have QQ player AK, Player raises pre-flop I reraise, he puts me all in (remember he has AK so that means he is the ruler of the world and he can't contemplate someone haveing a better hand than he pre-flop). I flop a set, he flops a straight. (lost 10.00)
I know that bad beats occur, it is a part of poker but they dont happen that frequently one hand after another. I lost 85$ in four consecutive hands. When it happend I thought that these people must be bad players and just got lucky, but everyday I play on this site I get more and more suspicious. I feel that full tilt is purposely doing this so that they can get more money to rake. I feel that the bad players are winning more than they should (statistically), so that full tilt can still make more money.
Just over the last two days I have lost more than 100$. I CANNOT GET A HAND THAT HOLDS UP. I AM BEAT ON THE RIVER EVERY TIME. How can it be that I always have the best hand pre-flop, and on the flop, to be beaten on the river.
I had flopped top two pair A6, someone flopped A5,after a series of re-raises he catches a 5 on the river! Next hand I have Q9, flopped two pair again. Someone with a short stack goes all in, and someone else goes all in for 10 bucks. I know I have the best hand! The short stack flopped bottom two pair and the other had Q10....GUESS WHAT! she gets a 10 on the river. I flop a set of threes, someone gets a full house on the river. How can I always have the best hand and lose? In a row? How do these people win runner runner like that, or catch two outers? and always against ME? How come everytime I draw, straight and a flush draw and have all these outs, I NEVER hit?
I was getting suspicious even before that because every time I got to a certain amount of money, I would lose to what I started with and when I would build it back up, I would lose again. WTF?
At first I blamed it on the players, I blamed them, because whenever they felt they had the best hand (or just didnt care), they would put me all and they would catch shit. I would call, becayse I would have the nuts pre-flop. I cant slow play anything or try to make money, I am always beat on the river. Now I feel this is rigged. Why is it that everytime I get to a certain amount of money, I start losing to lesser hands? The when I build the money up again, I have two straight days of bad beats? Or I will sit at a table and bleed chips becuase I get good hands, but I never hit anything. I feel they don;t want me to withdraw any money.
Thank god I googled Full tilt is rigged and now know this only doesn't happen to me!

nitemare6 06-04-08 06:19 PM


this poker site is totally rigged IN SO FAR as they have their RNG skewed to dealing high hands. It deals hands that, like you say, are against all reasonable probabilities. The excuse that you will here is that we see more hands each hour and thus we will se all these ridiculous HIGH hands dealt. Well if that is so, like I said below, why don't we also see MORE of the garbage hands where two players have nothing and A high or K high wins or they bluff out other players with J8 or 105 or a pair of 3s ort 5s or 9s win more often? ALl you hear is the propagandists saying how we will see more HIGH hands online since more are dealt. But you never hear them say why the normal distribution is still not achieved and observed (by all of us with brains and long-time poker experience like in live games)IF this poker site was truly not rigged and did seek to deal random hands. Nope!!! It's a joke! Like you said good players don't win as much as they should and CRAP PLAYERS win far too much. What is sadder is how many suckers keep playng poker online. GA (gamblers anonynmous) needs to work harder to increase membership as it is obvious this online poker caters to obsessive compulsives with no impulse control, and no idea of what should happen with a resonable and honest dealing system. Bad beats? Sure they happpen in live games all the time. But on Full RIGGED Tilt Joker poker they are the rule rather than the exception. If I designed a logo for full rigged tilt I would have an image of FOUR RUNNERS on board to give a guy with 49os a flush.

kriskris911 06-04-08 07:40 PM

Thanks for commenting back. I understand the excuse that they give you. But go sit in AC or vegas, especially with the automatic shufflers MANY hands are delt each hour, very comparable to full tilt. And they will never see that many bad beats in a matter of minutes. The number of bad beats I had on that site, in 20 minutes, I have never encountered sitting at a poker table for 24+ hours! They know nothing about statistics, odds, or probabilities. Also I think there are pokerbots playing on that site. How is it possible for one player to be sitting at 19 tables? NOT LOSING MONEY!!! My head starts spinning when I play two.
The only way I could make money on Full rigged tilt was by bluffing, and being a better player than those fish-donkeys. All of my hard work, flushed down the bad beat toilet. Well I am happy I have no more money on that site. For the third day in a row I was not allowed to win anything. It's sick! I wish they can be exposed somehow.

2HighIsTheNutz 06-04-08 08:52 PM

With you all the way kriskris911 and nitemare6. My previous posts sum up my thoughts, which are pretty much exactly in line with yours'. Went back to FTP after winning consistently at PokerStars to see if I could still see a difference. Just did some fake money games and freerolls, which I know aren't the best source of competition, but in the later stages of freerolls and the high buy-in play money there are decent players. Just hilarious to watch. It's so obvious where the skew is you can practically call the outcome when people turn over their cards after an all-in. If PLAYER1_STACK > PLAYER2_STACK then PLAYER1 WINS else PLAYER2 WINS. That simple. I think this bias is what has trained players to move all-in with air in the first few hands, because it's critical to gain a chip advantage early. Otherwise you're going to lose no matter how good your cards are.

There is often a similar series of events for chasers. Bad players tend to call a flop bet no matter what, hoping to improve on the turn. Good players tend to take a lot of factors into account to make this decision, and so fold more often when they determine the situation is -EV. Say a bad player has two suited rags. If the flop comes rainbow, for example, and a bet is made, they will call almost everytime. Say the bettor has middle pair or something, they might be inclined to probe bet or something on the turn to figure out if they're up against top pair and minimize their loss if they are. If the turn card makes the bad player one away from a flush, you can bet the farm they're sticking around NO MATTER WHAT. Either they will a) go all-in at this point hoping to scare you off because even if they don't they still could catch or b) they'll call any size bet to see the river. I'm not saying anything you don't already know - the difference is that on FTP that MIRACLE RIVER CARD COMES WAYYYYYY TOO F**KING OFTEN. I mean, it's a ridiculous chase play and even if the pot odds demand someone stick around to try and catch, the simple statistics say this should only work out for them <20% of the time. Rough guess, I'd say this kind of situation works out for the donkey chaser about half of the time. Even more if they've got a monster stack.

The fact that so many players do this kind of miracle chasing on FTP supports the idea that it works out more often than it should - in a honest game you'd learn not to do it pretty quick.

mrkromer 06-04-08 09:49 PM

The only comment I have on all the comments about getting rivered all the time is this: "Don't let it get to the river, and if you think an all in is inevitable, you better have the goods!" And stick with cash games, the tournaments on EVERY online site have gotten 100% out of control, no skill players left in those unless you play in huge stakes games. Just my 2 cents... And for the record, I would probably say that these sites aren't rigged, there are just a million factors coming into play (watching tv, listening to radio, talking to wife, multi-tabling, jacking off) that you don't deal with in live play.

To the guy who said he played 30+ hours straight at $2/$5, yeah right. You would've lost your ass if I was sitting, everyone needs sleep bro.


kriskris911 06-04-08 11:54 PM

You are absolutely right! I don't want to bring the hand to the river. I am forced to, because of the mindless idiots who go all in. Or push me in pre-flop. I do all I can to stop it, but nothing works. Raises, and re-raises....
Re-read what I had originally wrote! I know what happened and it's not possible that I can lose so many made hands....did I mention IN A ROW!
I can play NL holdem all day. I have played cash games at AC for 30 straight hours or more. I am use to it, I do it every weekend. I'm not a bro, I'm a gal. I should never have started playing online poker, I just thought it was more convienent than driving two hours back and forth from AC.
I only go all in with the goods. Pocket aces pre-flop, top pair top kicker to a loose aggressive, top two pair with no draws out there. I make excellent calls, and I get rewarded with bad beats.

2HighIsTheNutz 06-05-08 04:31 AM

Sound advice in theory mrkromer. Unfortunately doesn't work out in practice. You can try as hard as you can to bet a guy off a draw, they'll chase to the end anyway. Normally that would be fine - make the guy pay for his low-percentage draws and if he hits, that's the cost of doing business and is profitable in the long run because most times he shouldn't. What a lot of us are saying is that the percentage that hit is inflated (i.e. rigged) to the point where you lose money with solid play. Whether someone is distracted, multi-tabling - whatever - shouldn't affect that bottom line.

nitemare6 06-05-08 06:04 PM

I think 2High summed it up perfectly!

kriskris911 06-05-08 08:13 PM

Much better players on poker stars.

Nositi 06-07-08 05:50 PM

I think the online conspiracy theorists are hilarious. The cards are randomized. Do you think they threw some weighting into the card selection algorithm to favor any card that might complete a straight/flush just for fun?

At the casino last night I lost to some guy who rivered a straight. Oh no, real life is rigged!

mrkromer 06-07-08 09:15 PM

You both bring up good points, and I run into a lot of people going to the river on a regular basis as well, but I am curious about one thing we haven't mentioned:

How is your bankroll management? Do you not win in the long run because you only have a hundred or two hundred bucks to play with? I only ask because I never did very well online OR live until I learned to play within my bankroll. I don't have a huge one, normally around $500, but I seem to do a heck of a lot better when I stay at .25/.50 and .50/1 tables and $10 sit n gos. I laugh at myself when I think about when I first started playing online. I would buy in for $75 and play 1/2 nl. Anyway, just wondering what your thoughts are on that.


2HighIsTheNutz 06-08-08 07:56 AM

Hey mrkromer. Speaking for myself - I mentioned this indirectly in my previous rants - bankroll wasn't really a factor. I had ~50 buy-ins, which is more than enough according to advice I've read before. I think more than enough to handle typical ups and downs. The losing more than winning due to bad beats, and then finally culminating in the 30-loss streak is what broke me. We're talking unreal here.

There has been talk before about rigging on FTP in their forums. Of course, there are staunch defenders (obviously with a vested interest) and I believe there is a post there about a statistical analysis on the cards dealt that showed it was random. However, I would love to get my hands on the data used and stratify it according to: how new the player is (i.e. recent signup), whether the situation occured in the early or late stages of a tourney, etc. If FTP was smart - I mean deviously smart - they would make the cards random over the entire set dealt, but skew the distribution situationally. For example, a big stack in late stages of a tourney might be weighted favourably while in early stages (which would involve many more hands dealt since people haven't been eliminated) you would weight the other way (and this weighting would only have to be very slight to make up for the other skew because of more total hands).

Why would they do this? It's all been said before: get new players hooked by making them winners, increasing elimination/turnover in tourneys to increase the number/unit time a person enters, etc. This could easily have a big impact on their bottom line, and be virtually impossible to detect/prove unless someone had a fully described dataset and knew what to look for.

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