Ive been writin a few posts about my certainty that stars isn't rigged, got loads of stats and hands, and it all adds up fine. Don't know why, I put $50 on FT just to see if i could grind it to some amount, 120 $2 sitngo's and im up $8 lol. One thing I really noticed though was that I have an irrational gut feeling of dread when playing this site, like a phobia. I sweat $2 tourny's cos I feel like this hand is almost certainly a bad beat or cold deck. I play up to $150 a game on stars and dont batter an eyelid when I get in a good situation, if im all in as a 2 to 1 fave, i lie back and think, 'great bet I made', on FullTilt, I just know im gonna lose, It's crazy!

Im not saying i think its rigged, but my past experience on this site brings a rush of dread whenever im involved in a big pot with a seemingly good hand, so strange.

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It's RIGGED "poker"

There isn't any doubt!

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If you want to prove it to yourself and be 100% certain of this, switch to stars for 50,000 hands and see what your results are. As i've said in previous posts I'm 100% stars is straight and got about 110k hands data to prove it. The problem is that you need a sample of hands from a gauranteed legitimate site so you can be sure it's not your play. Poker relieves millions of players of their money everyday, not because they're stupid, but because most players think they are playing better than guys sitting at their table, theres a cruel deception. To know if you're a good player you've got to have stats showing +EV over many hands, it's the ONLY way of knowing. So seeing as you only have stats for FullTIlt, i'd suggest racking up 50,000 hands on stars, then you can be sure to yourself that it is the sites RNG, and not a leak in your game.

Personally I think you have your head screwed on with poker, and i'm not doubting your play for one minute, but YOU can't be sure until you have 2 sets of stats that look very different or very similar, hopefully the former.

Just to throw an idea out there, I profit well playing the medium stakes im grinding at the moment but do find it hard when I play micro-stakes because I find a level of boredom kicks. It doesn't feel like real poker, theres no respect, and I swear this subconsiously makes me play slightly worse as my results in micro are pretty dia, even though the players are worse. This could be a factor.

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FTP makes you question what really is poker. I've never had so many bad beats in my life. I am not the best player by any means, but I am out in front when I get my money in most of the time, yet I lose at least half of these all ins.

Some insane beats: AA vs. 66 vs. 66 three way all in preflop--lost to a straight (I've never had any hand like that before live or online, yet I lost despte a high 90s win probability). Another way that I got busted out on: AJ vs. A9 with the board 6JJ. The guy hits a flush on runner runner hearts.

Even worse is that they have these shills that I assume get paid by FT on the forums that will attack you for being a retard who can't play poker when you question the fairness of the script.

There is no way in real life all these bad beats happen all the time.

FTP rigs the script to build up action. --- EDIT: Just won an all in with JJ vs. A8. The flop came AJ6 and I checked; the other guy bet and I reraised him, and he reraised me. No suckout, which is the first one for me tonight. Had lost my only other all in tonight... it was a 3 outter bad beat. Par for the course I guess. Once I get all my bonus cleared, I am outta there. Such a BS site.

What Odds.... i think you are right on with your statemants... i know the "dread feeling" that was mentioned earler in the posts when playing on this site. Way too many betting hands lose to tards that have no business even being in the hand. And like you said, its the coolers that kill you.... mix them with a few bad beats and your EV plummets... not to mention your confidence.
As any good poker player knows, its all about finding the donk(s) and fish at the table and exploiting them. That is how a good player wins, but this is almost always impossible at FTP because the donk that plays ATC and has the highest VPIP % seems to be the guy who will inevidibly take you out no matter how patient you are and how good you get your money in.... it really seems as if there are FTP shill players.
Even in heads up play, the decisions that you are required to make are enough to wear down even the most gifted statistics wiz.
Hint: if you see a retard playing shit hands and getting lucky.... DONT TRY TO BUST HIM.... he WILL felt you>>>> EVERY TIME....bets bet is to just stay away from him.... and FTP in general for that matter.

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FullTilt is RIGGED poker. These guys are slime balls and theey have a good scam having "pros" recommend ths site. Frankly these guys are a disgrace. I am 110% positve that other poker pros who are NOT on Full Tilt know that Full Tilt is a scam and not random.

Total rigged poker.

I have not played any cash games there since January, and withdrew all but a few dollars to waste on their rigged DOLLAR $1 tournmnament.

whatodds,
If you are winning on every other site and losing on FTP why did you just play 50k hands there? I'm not saying I don't believe you because I do but the whole thing is just mind boggling to me. If I thought there was a site I couldn't win on for any reason, especially a reason like you have with full tilt, I would never play there again. Why waste your time losing if you know you can win elsewhere. Unless you are playing 10 tables at once 50k hands is 100's of hours of play. It just seems that you are trying to prove something at your own detriment. How much money would you be willing to lose to convince everyone on this forum FTP is rigged? 90% of people on here already agree with you anyway and half of them don't even make any sense when they post. Is giving them the satisfaction of some kind of "proof", or changing the mind of someone like me who thinks its legit, going to make it all worthwhile? Even if FTP is rigging their online poker, there are bigger atrocities in the world. Poker is something we all enjoy and some of us make a profit with, and I'm sure both of those things apply to you when you play at other sites and neither apply when playing at FTP. I can't imagine it's a lick of fun for you and I know you aren't winning any money. Purely for your own sake I plead for you to you stop your crusade. Let someone else fight the good fight and go against FTP and go back to enjoying poker and winning money on a site you feel comfortable with. I might have even played at some you haven't and be able to suggest a good site for you.

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My point wasn't only that you aren't going to change the minds of people who think differently, although that was a big part of it. My point is also that 90% of people here already think its rigged; and when most of them post, its obvious they don't have a clue what they are talking about. You can look back on this very thread. I counted atleast 3 times in which players were complaining about bad beats when the money went all in pre flop 50/50. The best example is a guy who posted about how his set of 9's got beat by a runner runner straight with his opponent holding AQ. Then he posted the hand history and all the money was in before the flop!!!Thats a sick way to lose but certainly nothing even coming close to anything resembling a bad beat. Yet, this player thought that to be proof of that FTP is "rigged". So my point was that I dont see why you would waste your time and money to be the leader for all these people who don't know what they are talking about. It happens time and time again. You'll make a well thought out post with some good points about why you think its rigged only for some guy who has no clue to come and say "yheah yeah you are exactly right, i know its rigged because my JJ just lost to A9". I'm not saying its only people who don't know what they are talking about who think its rigged but there are certainly a lot of people like that out there and If I was you I wouldn't waste my time or money just so they can feel vindicated. If you feel you've proved it to yourself then its been proven, move on and play somewhere you win money and have fun.

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I don't have too much experience with FTP. I deposited a few buy ins and played some NL200 there for almost a month. I pretty much only did this because of this thread. I was up a good bit for awhile but when on a terrible run (mostly due to poor play) and lost everything. I personally like their site but didn't like the competition too much. I have a really agressive style and sometimes clash with the ultra agressive eastern/northern european style that dominates Full Tilt. It's the type of competiton that you can make the perfect read and the perfect bluff only to have your opponent make a horrible call and have his basically nothing beat your bluff. Playing against this type of competition straightforward and concentrating on getting max value on big hands instead of bluffing too much is def. the way to play but I just didn't switch my style well enough. Also, I found myself with this little voice in the back of my head everytime I took a bad beat saying "what if they are right" lol. I didn't start to believe or anything but just that little voice kept me from playing there anymore, that is how I know playing there must suck for you, you have a voice yelling at you lol. Honestly, I didn't keep any stats or anything but just from what I saw in a small 10-20k sample I didn't see anything that looked to weird, or a string of things that didn't look right. I'm not saying this validates my point at all I just didn't see much.

Obviously my results there don't compare well to my results on other sites. I've been a winning player for awhile, I usually go back and forth between PlayersOnly and Pokerstars. Playersonly is on cake so you might be familiar with it. I like playing there a lot better because I feel the competition is softer but Stars has such high volume and great tournaments I always keep an open account. As far as the whole FTP thing I wouldn't take much stock in my results I played horribly and tilted off about 3k in a week my last week there and I certainly can't blame that on FTP. However, if getting people not to play there is what you're after, you've accomplished that with me. Your arguments have put the slightest bit of reasonable doubt in my mind about the validity of full tilt, therefore I'd rather put my money on the line elsewhere. I'm not converting or anything but I have to admit that. For that reason, I'm sure you can see why you playing there is incomprehensible to me. If it bothered me and I don't even t hink you are right, I'm sure it just killed you. But hey, if it IS rigged and you've kept me from playing there I guess I owe you one. Sadly, I don't think we'll ever know.

Still find the whole reasoning for rigging their RNG hard to swallow, must be quite a large number of people that would return to fulltilt if they had another trusted third party audit and assessed their RNG, maybe a we could put together a pertition. It sucks cos my bankrolls gettin quite hefty and FT seems the only place to move up in the game.

To talk strategy, do you think 9-tabling was partly a factor in your loss in 50k hands? Because what was ABC poker 10 years ago isnt the same ABC as today, the latest poker books are making the old books obsilete. One major difference I saw on FT last time I played was the small ball,passive-aggressive style most of the players employ. Yes, there's alot of donkeys moving in with Qhigh only to spike it on the river, its $5, but I wonder whether theres a reason your strategy doesn't balance on this site. The problem with playing 9 tables against alot of passive-aggressive players is ABC poker will be torn apart(or break even, minus rake) by reverse-implied odds. Just to clarify, reverse implied odds are when your coninuation in the pot will either win a small pot or lose a huge pot. Here's an example:

Nl cash 2c/5c, you raise AK to 15c, button calls everyone folds. Flop come down A 3 10, you raise 22c, opponent calls. Turn is a 9. You raise 50c, opponent calls. River is a 4. You bet 50c, opponent reraises to $1.80, you call. Opponent shows 910 and takes $5.41
Now to break this down, we'll assume your opponent will fold if misses on the turn. His outs are about 17% with one draw.This means when you:

WIN
0.83 x 22c = +18.26c

LOSE
0.17 x -255c = -43.35c
_______
EV = -25.09c

At a single 50c/$1 table, for a good player this river bet should be an easy fold. You would think 'this players only been showing down atleast 2pair, TPTK doesn't look so big by the river, and I dont want to make a huge mistake' muck. But I defy anyone playing 9 tables of $5 to make this fold, everyone may say they would, but realisticly, your gonna look them up in the assumption that these inexperienced players are playing too many weak hands and bluffing too much. In a SNG, you probably would have +EV playing this hand because his implied odds are worsened by the short stack, but in 100BB cash games, the advantage is with your opponent.

We aren't gonna know if FT is rigges, but if i had to put my money on what's going on, I'd bet that alot of players are getting in situations like this in small stake games, and not realising that there strategy is a dog to this sites style and rake. The fact is, I used to write on forums saying that pokerstars was rigged, I didn't know how to really evaluate hands, and just assumed that I was getting really unlucky, could have sworn I was a favourite, but looking back, I had some leaks in my game when I shifted my roll from soft Pacific to tough stars and FT games. Today I swear by the site, but leaves me wondering whether these conspiracy theory's are just bollox.

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Even though I agree with Buck22 about the RNG, I think whatodds might be right about the example. In that example you are kind of assuming that the guy who flopped middle pair is pretty good and the guy who flopped TPTK is not. In reality, if the better player flopped TPTK he would almost certainly be able to get away from it after the river raise. Also, if the guy who flopped MP is just your average micro calling station, he is not only calling the turn but the river as well even if he misses, he still has a pair after all, they don't fold pairs often. Playing at those stakes is basically a balancing act of getting great value with things like top pair, while being smart enough not to stack off to the guy who caught his second pair on the river. That way you ruin their implied odds which are telling them they can take your whole stack if they hit. As whatodds said, its usually pretty easy to tell when they hit. If you bet into the average micro guy after the river with him holding 2nd or 3rd pair you are getting called, if that guy happened to hit 2 pair on the river, you are getting raised. Thats why betting TPTK for a third time after the river is profitable in micro and is def. not at all profitable in bigger games. Obv there are certain guys who might make the raise on the river with a busted draw or something, but if a guy has that in his arsenal you will find out soon enough. This is why micro games are easily beatable with an ABC, TAG style of just waiting for big hands and maxing the value you get from them. Also, if he's had success at all the other sites on micro levels im sure he knows how donks play and how to beat them. If I had to take a guess at why he wasn't successful at FTP (assuming the RNG isnt rigged) I would say its mental. IMO no player can ever win at anything that they just KNOW they are going to lose at. That goes for everything not just poker. So if whatodds went into these 50k hands knowing he was going to be cheated and lose, he was destined to lose IMO which is why I've repeatedly told him he's crazy for playing there if he thinks its rigged.

Tis a wise theory VA, confidence plays an almighty part of poker. In my previous example, I was singeling out a certain type of player that I've encountered alot on FT, they WILL call a flop bet (because most players today have read super system) with middle pair, but throw it away under turn pressure. The example wasn't meant to be a random $5 player, just seems FT has some slightly wised up fish.

Most other sites low stakes games are players who get dominated by a 'continuation bet'/'balance a few bluffs in' supersystem style play that is the basics of poker. The fold equity is huge, and when they catch a hand, it sticks out like a saw thumb. It's great, low variance! But FT has alot more aggresive players and alot more small-ball players testing the water which even though it seems like bad play, is actually losing less than the fore-mentioned players at other sites.

I think I mentioned in a previous post that after grindin a role up, i had to bank out for bills. Was so used to the higher games that when i started again from $200, it was a freakin nightmare! And this was on stars! Took me so long to get it going, and amount of bad beats was excruciating!! If you compared my play then to the last two months, sooooo much more discipline now, cos im not tilted 24/7 from badbeats and robotic ABC games, I definatley blame my bad runs on FT on this, i'd play brilliantly, it'd grind me down, then id make mistakes and blame it on bad players/beats.

Anyway, the biggest cash cow on low stake games is SNG's short-handed. Even the crap cash game players know they have to wait for a decent hand to get their money in, but in low/medium stake SNG's, anyone that has a copy of 'Harrington on tournys' can inhialate these games. There's a guy I play with on some high stake SNG's that is up $60,000 and i swear, he just sits there and waits for AA,KK,QQ,AK, it's so sick that this basic style is crushing pretty high buyin tournys, seriously, the SNG players are ridiculously soft compared to cash.I recommend.

But VA has a major point about your confidence on FT, good to hear you're done with it for that reason. As for multi-tabling, when I started grinding on stars in January, I broke even for 150 games playing 2x$10 SNG, I did the necessary 'rigged!' post, but I see alot of players not doing well cos they're multitabling to the extreme and losing quite an edge to it, me being one of them. I know your up on every other site but thought it might be useful info. Good luck grinding a new role! I recommend stars!

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I guess I missed your point a little bit Buck. I didn't realize you were saying the micro guys on FTP might be able to lay down the middle pair after the turn. I thought you were just giving an example about how things would play out anywhere in a micro game. So, if your theory is right, it is possible that it negatively impacted whatodds win rate. I know exactly what you mean about moving down. I usually play NL200 but after a horrible run a few months ago I played NL50 for about 2 weeks. Thats how I know that a very basic style of waiting for good hands and getting max value out of them works well. You can't bluff them, so getting way more value than you should with hands like top pair is the only way to get your edge. Thats why I said I thought the player with middle pair in the previous example would have called down all the way whether or not he improved. I saw that so many times at NL50, I promise there were even times when a never improved AK called me down on three streets.

Sorry whatodds I don't play on FTP anymore and never kept any HH when I did so I can't really help with that TPTK thing. I see how it is very significant though. As we've both said being a profitable low stakes player basically relies on your ability to get value out of calling stations. Considering the fact that so many guys at that level call down 3 streets with less than TPTK it seems like you'd have definitely ran across it somewhere in a 50k sample. Maybe Buck had a point that some of the FT micro guys are not as big of calling stations as micro players elsewhere. However, I don't see how this could have never happened in 50K hands. Kind of strange I'll admit.

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting Whatodds would play out a hand like this in theory, but believe someone multitabling up to 9 tables could easily make this mistake and believe it was down to bad luck. If someones not getting TPTK to the river EVER, this suggests the opponents in these games are folding dominated hands on turn and river, and only calling/raising when outdrawing it, this would appear like TPTK just doesn't stand up.

SNG's are so soft that playing strong hands in position, ABC poker, beats the game sufficiently, hitting TPTK can easily stack an opponent with top pair. The play is loose and passive so AK is the nuts! However my experience with cash games, even micro, are that because the blinds are so small, most players sit and wait for big hands, as Dan Harrington put it, the tight-aggressive style is very tough to beat, even if its an amateur utilising it. SNG's are profitable in robot mode, but the cash games take a level of mixing up your game to trick your opponents. I can't remember the last time I felted a player with TPTK because in tight games, this hand either wins a small pot or loses a big pot. Personally they win some small pots until your suited-conectors or pocket pairs hit the flop hard, then taking AA,KK, and TPTK to value town, because at micro stakes players dont wait 1/2hour just to fold AK when an ace flops. I really think since considering TPTK as a small pot hand (unless check-call 3 streets or SNG), my stats have improved.

Ive just finished reading Harrington on Cash Games vol 1&2, great books, and a section really improved my game. So simple 'small hand,small pot. Big hand, big pot'. Well duh! Thats poker! But theres 2 advantages to keeping TPTK pots small, 1, opponents that outdraw you cant bet as much on the river, and 2, it can induce a bluff from a hand that wouldve folded or get your river value bet called by a weaker hand. Sorry for waffling but the point I am making is that the over-valueing of TPTK and overpairs is where most players fall, this is what I look for in my opponents.

We should start another thread on strategy, think this FullTilt one has had it.

OK...

so tonight I play a .60 tournament - lol

I am down to 1/2 buy in - dealt 45 suited - Button raises 4.5 times BB and oen caller. I go all in with 45s (500 chips ) to just see how the hand is dealt. Both players call. So flop comes 4710 rainbow

Button bets ALL IN (1900) and other donk callls him (he probably wanted to go head-up against me) -

so the donk who called has 3s and the ALL IN donk has AQ (in other words he has --->squat)

BUT - this is full rigged tilt, so let's see what happens. Will my 4s hold up?

Turn is a J

Guess what river is?? ---> The FULL of crap Rigged tilt K - so guys hits a straight, and I lose.

Total B.S. "poker" site - laughable

So you pushed all in (not bad at all with only 4.5 BB left) with suited cons, and got 2 others all in , AQ and 33.

45s= 32%
33 = 26%
AQ = 42%

You're calling a site laughable because the fave, middle, and dog actually won in the right order? This thread is getting beyond weak, these examples are meaningless, this in particular doesn't even make sense cos the best hand won. Theres a leak in your game or you havent given enough time for the variance of multitable tournys to balance out,l i seriously think it's the former if you can't anylise a basic multiway all-in properly. Maybe im missing the point and this is where players just like to vent their tilt, if so, sorry, and carry on. But im only getting more convinced FT is straight.

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Keep playing on this scam site; I don't really care.

There is little doubt its rigged. IF the guy with AQ (who made a crap call + a crap all in bet) got a Q or A then - ok. But after flop I was ahead.

In real games it is likely I might have held up, but ore importantly no guy would have called an ALL IN with AQ AFTER that flop (since he had -0-) that is ZERO = NOTHING. And the guy with a pair of 3s. What the F was he doing in the hand calling an ALL IN in the 1st place with no pair adn no real draw?@!

IF the guy with AQ caught an A or Q, maybe that would make some sense as "that's poker". But they (full rigged scum) deal him two (2) runners to give him a straight. There are more straights and flushes on Full Tilt in two (2) hours then in a live game over 2 days.

This hand I posted shows how this scam site seeks to enhance rakes.

You know on this forum -- we never address the real issues on Full Rigged Tilt; which is that they program hands for rakes. Instead guys ruminate and try to find rationalzations about how this could or might happen in live games with a real deck, and how this is not rigged ealing but coincidence etc. etc. That is BS.

I have been a trial lawyer for over 20 years; it is highly likely I think better than most on this forum. You don't need proof beyond all doubt or to some infinite mathematical level to establish that this "poker" site is not really dealing real random hands that in some shape or form at lease sort of match the REAL odds and REAL probabilities in real games.

Anecdotal and circumstantial evidence is strong enpough (for me ) on this scam site over 4-5 years, to prove to me that it is rigged. It quacks like a duck and walks like a duck. Then it is a duck most of the time.

LOL --- what are some of you guys going to say when someday there is an expose' on this rigged poker site???!!

I bet some of you will still defend these clowns becasue there are some people in life that just don't GET IT.

Polllyanna and naive.

Those people you can never show them the way or convince them otherwise. They are just low-level thinkers and stubborn minds who object for the sake of their egos.

Look at VA Poker. The guy says he never played much on F-rigged-T (in a recent post) but here he ---is defending them -- it's laughable -- LOL

nightmare

Since you called me out by name for no apparent reason I guess I'll attemp a response. I defend FTP because almost every argument I see on here for it being rigged makes no sense. You just literally posted a hand in which you went all in with 4 5 before the flop, got two callers, and lost. What the hell is supposed to happen when you go all in before the flop with 5 high and get 2 callers? You also try to demean your opponents by talking very disrespectfully about their play. If you want better opponents, play a higher game. You just bragged about how you are a big trial lawyer and therefore a better thinker than anyone here. You don't have money to play a game more than 60 cents?I know, Iknow its rigged thats why you don't play higher,right? Better yet, why not just go to one of 1,000 other online sites and play there? You like playing FTP because when you lose you can tell yourself its fixed, and you have an excuse as to why you are playing a .60c game. With all the personal attacks and childish name calling you have thrown around on this forum I highly doubt you are actually a trial lawyer. However, if you are, you might know something about the burden of proof. The burden is on you for making this claim against FTP and you have not shown anything close to proof.

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Nightmare,people don't think better than other people, they have different ways of thinking on subjects. You could be Albert Einstien but doesn't mean you've got a clue when it comes to poker. IF ftp is rigged, then the arguements and hands you put forward don't even point out a problem, let alone actual evidence. What is important is WHEN the money goes in, if it goes preflop, the board could come out AcKcQcJc10c because its the same odds as 2c6hJdJs8h. You proved that the favourite won in your last post ffs.

Theres 99 reasons to every 1 for losing money at poker so if you cant see why people are offering other explanations, maybe your judgement could be slightly clouded. No.1 Stop playing on this site, ive told everyone that i got stats on stars that hold up, move sight. Spend 6 months playing stars but id put a tenner on that you have the same problem there too.

However ive just picked up my biggest donkey 2009 award for drinking beer then sinking £150 on red chasing £10, 4 blacks in a row!!! RIGGEDDDDDD RIGGGGGGGGGGGEDDDD!!!! Man what a tw*t I really am, had to bank out $300 of my bankroll to cover it, just had to let it out, tw*t tw*t tw*t TW*T!!! but nightmare u still suck lol