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  #91  
Old 04-25-05, 08:14 AM
Iceman37
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Oh, another thing...

...one of the posts I DID read said, in effect, that you have to play the AA and then added "have you ever seen a pro fold AA?"

The answer is YES. Daniel Negreanu did EXACTLY that, and then devoted his entire column in Cardplayer Magazine to the play.

Of course it wasn't the first hand of the WSOP. He wasn't looking at tripling up. And his reasoning had nothing to do with the odds or the cards or winning or losing (he did it for purely psychological reasons...to prove to himself that he could!)

So yes, there has been at least one pro (the best in the business, I might add) who has folded the rockets.
  #92  
Old 05-07-05, 11:30 AM
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V.I.P. Vegas Host

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomePokerGames Admin
It is the first hand of the WSOP, a player goes all-in with and 3 players call. You figure at least a couple of them have high pairs and ther other player a decent hand. Against 3 other players, AA is a slightly better than 50% favorite (54%). Do you call looking to double up and take the chip lead - knowing you could also bust out on the first hand? or fold knowing that you can double up your stack anyway with less risk - knowing that having the chip lead on the first day means nothing?
With Pocket ACES, I personally Feel you must call & go All in

[url]www.davidnigh.com[/url] check out Poker Cruise info there
  #93  
Old 05-23-05, 06:51 AM
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I fold 'em

I think it makes a lot of sense to fold the Aces in a tournament game like this. While it's true that the odds are in your favor, the tournament isn't about maximizing your take from any given hand, it's about staying alive. If you're sitting on AA and two players in front of you are all-in before the flop, at least one of them is playing more aggressively than his cards warrent, and I'm happy to have one less source of unpredictability at my table. In order to advance, I want to play at a table where there are fewer people who consistantly bet big before the flop, because I want to see more flops without having to reguarly risk my stack.

Early on, I'm fine with laying low a bit and learning a bit about the other players' styles. I'm just not interested in putting my whole tournament on a coin-flip, even if by winning it, I won the table. I've got enough confidence in capacities to beat the rest of the table over time using playing and reading skill, rather than letting it all ride on the first hand.

So, in this case, I fold and let one or more of these guys bust. True, the one who wins doubles or triples up, but if he keeps playing loose, I'm not worried about him keeping all of those chips.
  #94  
Old 05-28-05, 03:33 PM
Locohombre Locohombre is offline
 
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It depends when he folded them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman37
...one of the posts I DID read said, in effect, that you have to play the AA and then added "have you ever seen a pro fold AA?"

The answer is YES. Daniel Negreanu did EXACTLY that, and then devoted his entire column in Cardplayer Magazine to the play.

Of course it wasn't the first hand of the WSOP. He wasn't looking at tripling up. And his reasoning had nothing to do with the odds or the cards or winning or losing (he did it for purely psychological reasons...to prove to himself that he could!)

So yes, there has been at least one pro (the best in the business, I might add) who has folded the rockets.
If he folded them before the flop, then it was a terrible play. On the flop? Could be a great fold, depending on what he's up against. Folding the best possible starting hand before the flop is a terrible idea.
  #95  
Old 05-31-05, 11:26 PM
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shutup
  #96  
Old 06-01-05, 10:22 AM
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I've folded ace/ace.

Tournament in Vegas, just a $65 buy-in, down to 4 players. I was sitting on about 70% of the chips, with the other 3 sitting on about 10% each. I'm in the big blind, and the 3 players before go all in. My mindset was to win money that day, so the hardest play of my life was folding ace/ace. With 3 players going all in before me i put someone on another ace, leaving me to a lone ace or a impossible flush or straight draw. the 3 players turned over their cards, showing KQ suited, A/K Suited and 9/9. The 9's trip up on the flop and another ace never shows, making me the loser in the hand. So with that 1 fold, i ended up 70% vs. 30% heads up, and moved my winnings up a guarenteed $1500, ended up winning the whole tournament and taking about $4000 i beleive.
  #97  
Old 06-01-05, 12:50 PM
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That's all very cute

But can we stay on topic? - Folding pocket aces on the first hand of a tourney, not at the final table.
  #98  
Old 06-01-05, 05:55 PM
thatguy
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Um shutup?

"have you ever seen a pro fold AA?" was the topic, so be quiet, mmk thanks?
  #99  
Old 06-02-05, 03:06 AM
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this was the original topic....mmk????

Folding Pocket Aces in a tournament

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is the first hand of the WSOP, a player goes all-in with and 3 players call. You figure at least a couple of them have high pairs and ther other player a decent hand. Against 3 other players, AA is a slightly better than 50% favorite (54%). Do you call looking to double up and take the chip lead - knowing you could also bust out on the first hand? or fold knowing that you can double up your stack anyway with less risk - knowing that having the chip lead on the first day means nothing?
  #100  
Old 06-02-05, 09:30 AM
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ummmmmmmm CALLLLL!!!!!
  #101  
Old 06-02-05, 02:34 PM
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professional vs amateur

It depends on your poker skills. If you're a Phil Helmuth or Daniel Negreanu (or whoever your favorite professional player may be) then you fold. Those guys are not going to put their tournament life at stake on a coin flip on the very first hand of the biggest tourney of the year, no matter what cards they're holding. They rather outplay their opponents and create better odds for themselves.

But for people like you and I, who basically need to triple up on the first day to have a chance to stay alive and go deeper in the tournament, I think it's fair to say you should call.
  #102  
Old 06-05-05, 09:27 AM
deekay140 deekay140 is offline
 
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A coin flip??? Pocket aces are 65% favorite to any hand preflop. If your not gonna play them, why play at all.
  #103  
Old 06-05-05, 03:37 PM
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Your wrong

Pocket aces are only 85% preflop when its heads up, against 4 players its like 35% preflop.
  #104  
Old 06-06-05, 05:17 PM
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Fold em

Someone else has the ace obviously. Stupid to go all in first hand..wait till you see them again when you know more about your fellow players.....easy call...most people see poker aces and blow their load....i've lost with them more than I've won with them.....id rather see the flop with pocket two's then go up against a couple wild players preflop with rockets.....
  #105  
Old 06-07-05, 06:51 PM
VINCE
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Smile Folding Aces Pre Flop

I Been Playing For 20 Years Never Say Never! Yes Sometimes Under Unique Circumstances You Will Or At Least Better Consider Folding The Aces. Here Is The Deal: In A 9 Person Hold Em Game, 80% Of The Time 3 Aces Are Dealt Out In All Variations. If You Have Someone Make A Big Bet Preflop And You Hold Aces Its No Big Deal But If 3 Or More People Call, Get Out!!!!!! At Least 1 Of The Other 4 Are Holding An Ace So You Are Already Looking For The Case Ace Pre Flop! The Best Thing For Guys Like Me Is Espn Showing These Tournements. People Dont Understand They Are Generally Watching The Last Table Of A Tourney. Play Is Considerbly Different In The Phase Of A Toureny And Certainly Way Different In A Money Game. Remember 1 Thing No One Tells You, Holdem Takes 5 To 15 Minutes To Learn And A Lifetime To Master
  #106  
Old 06-09-05, 11:07 AM
Locohombre Locohombre is offline
 
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It doesn't matter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by VINCE
I Been Playing For 20 Years Never Say Never! Yes Sometimes Under Unique Circumstances You Will Or At Least Better Consider Folding The Aces. Here Is The Deal: In A 9 Person Hold Em Game, 80% Of The Time 3 Aces Are Dealt Out In All Variations. If You Have Someone Make A Big Bet Preflop And You Hold Aces Its No Big Deal But If 3 Or More People Call, Get Out!!!!!! At Least 1 Of The Other 4 Are Holding An Ace So You Are Already Looking For The Case Ace Pre Flop! The Best Thing For Guys Like Me Is Espn Showing These Tournements. People Dont Understand They Are Generally Watching The Last Table Of A Tourney. Play Is Considerbly Different In The Phase Of A Toureny And Certainly Way Different In A Money Game. Remember 1 Thing No One Tells You, Holdem Takes 5 To 15 Minutes To Learn And A Lifetime To Master
For one, the pot odds would then be to great to fold the best starting hand on. Second of all, you should never expect the third A to hit anyway. You should only count on your pair of As to hold up. Your odds of hitting the 3rd A with 2 left in the deck are slim anyway.

You should call because if you win this hand, you can go out and eat dinner, then go to bed with your woman, then come back to the game afterwards. You simply wouldn't have to play a freaking hand for hours if you won that hand with AAs. You would only lose 1.5 blinds every 10 hands. You would just have to have to have a lot of discipline, and you coast into the money.

So, you may get a little short stacked there, but you are still in the money.
  #107  
Old 06-10-05, 11:42 AM
5thStreetPokerParties.com 5thStreetPokerParties.com is offline
 
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Thumbs up

Doyle Brunson has said several times:

"The only hand worth going all-in on during the first day of the WSOP is pocket aces."

How can you play them and risk leaving the tournament on the first hand?... But how can you not play them?

I understand the philosophy of wanting to have as much information as possible before making a decision. But, would you make the a different decision on the 50th hand than on the 1st hand?

You may very well be up against KK or QQ or even AA. I don't see anyone going all-in on the first hand with AK. If someone catches a K or Q, then good for them. You could sit there the rest of the tournament without ever seeing that hand again.

If you're afraid of playing with the best hand in fear of someone drawing a better hand then... you shouldn't be playing at all. Because that's the nature of the game.

I've been in a situation on the first hand of a tourney where I had the nut straight after the turn and the guy to the left of me goes all-in, another guy goes all-in, and I decide to call. We all had Ace-high straights. The only card that can come would be a club on the river to make a flush for one of us to win. The club comes on the river and two of us are eliminated. I felt I made the right play and I don't know anyone who could disagree.

Last edited by 5thStreetPokerParties.com; 06-12-05 at 08:38 AM.
  #108  
Old 06-12-05, 02:22 AM
earthslash earthslash is offline
 
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Quote:
If you're afraid of playing with the best hand in fear of someone drawing a better hand then... you shouldn't be playing at all. Because that's the nature of the game.
For No-Limit Texas Holdem, I have to agree with this. Omaha is a different case, but thats not the topic here. Like someone said earlier, AA vs 3 other players is just above a coin flip. Even less if someone else has AA also. A pro might be able to lay it down in that type of situation, but I don't think I could because it might be my only opportunity to gain that many chips.
  #109  
Old 06-13-05, 10:50 AM
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Early in my young poker career, I had pocket AA in a cash game. A player raised pre flop and I then re raised as I was supposed to do. He called and we saw the flop. He immediatel went all in. Notknowing this player and how he plays, I eventually layed down my AA thinking that maybe he had a set a Q's as a Q came on the flop. Turns out he had nothing and I lost what should have been a no brainer. Found out later he was just a reckless player. After playing many hours of poker I realized that most players that do an all in after the fact are ususally trying to bluff.
By the end of the night I had made up that pot that should have been mine and then another 250.00. Same player, different results. I flopped a boat and and then checked to him after pre flopped raises. I had 7 6 suited. Flop came 7 6 6. He raised all in. I called and he was done for the night.

So to lay down AA in a tourny, yes, depending on the nature of the table and where you are in chip standing and how far off from winning. AA in a cash game pre flop. Headsup , never again. : )
  #110  
Old 06-17-05, 09:58 PM
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dude.... You would quad up with 3 callers.

Dude

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomePokerGames Admin
It is the first hand of the WSOP, a player goes all-in with and 3 players call. You figure at least a couple of them have high pairs and ther other player a decent hand. Against 3 other players, AA is a slightly better than 50% favorite (54%). Do you call looking to double up and take the chip lead - knowing you could also bust out on the first hand? or fold knowing that you can double up your stack anyway with less risk - knowing that having the chip lead on the first day means nothing?
  #111  
Old 07-07-05, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutem
You have to play them. If you can't risk an all in on pocket Aces then you cant win the WSOP.
If you don't have what it takes to FOLD pocket aces in this situation then you probably don't have what it takes to win the WSOP. Think about it for a second. You are a favorite to win but against that many hands you don't have the huge advantage you think you do. And even if you win so what? You have 40K that will be absolutely meaningless by the third day. Don't make the mistake of trying to win the tournament in the first hand.

[Incidentally I've played aces against 4 all-in opponents pre-flop in a cash game. But in the WSOP you can't just tell yourself it was +EV and pull another 10K out if you lose.]
  #112  
Old 07-12-05, 06:54 AM
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It all comes down to whether you're the type of person who eases into the pool or jumps in headfirst. You can put the odds out there, the earned value, but until you're in this situation, you'll never know. If this happens to me, I see 3 other callers with, in all likelihood, lesser hands. The fact that this is the WSOP is irrelevant. Would you make the call in your local card game? I think more of us would. As many others have said, you're probably looking at AA calling an AK, KK and maybe something like QQ, JJ or AQs or AJs. For most of these guys the higher end straight is shot, leaving flushes and low end straights. I'd still get my money in the pot on this one, just because the advantage for me in terms of chip stack is much more desirable than the odds that I'll be busted out later. For me and my playing style, I take the risk. If I get em cracked, well then so be it. Assuming no one hits a set on the river, my hand is likely to significantly improve due to the high cards being sucked out already. Odds are that at least a Q or J was folded by the other 6 players as well (the other 12 cards that are out of play) leaving the Aces in a dominating position. I say play em. I can also see the argument of laying em down in favor of outplaying the people later (because lets face it, even if one of the weaker hands wins out ... anyone betting a QQ or JJ or AQ or weaker hand with 1 or two other all-ins is likely to be easily outplayed later...that being said...as a rule, I go in with the best of it early and back out when I don't. It's just how I play.
  #113  
Old 10-13-05, 07:21 PM
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Calling in the situation outlined initially is crazy. Do those advocating it know how little those chips they may win are worth? Tournament poker is no different from cash games, in that it requires risks to be taken when there is an overall expectation of profit. However, tourney profit, only comes from finishing in the paid places. Here 50 / 50 chance of going out, only a slight improvement in your chances if you win. YOU HAVE TO FOLD. Early on in tourneys leave all-ins for when you know you're winning the pot.
  #114  
Old 10-17-05, 06:28 PM
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If Three others have gone all in before me, I fold. Its just a pair till the flop. I have seen Pockets get killed so many times it's not funny. Your betting all your chips on a pair and have to see the flop is crazy. You have one out while the others could have Three or Four outs.
  #115  
Old 10-17-05, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
It all comes down to whether you're the type of person who eases into the pool or jumps in headfirst. You can put the odds out there, the earned value, but until you're in this situation, you'll never know. If this happens to me, I see 3 other callers with, in all likelihood, lesser hands. The fact that this is the WSOP is irrelevant. Would you make the call in your local card game? I think more of us would. As many others have said, you're probably looking at AA calling an AK, KK and maybe something like QQ, JJ or AQs or AJs. For most of these guys the higher end straight is shot, leaving flushes and low end straights. I'd still get my money in the pot on this one, just because the advantage for me in terms of chip stack is much more desirable than the odds that I'll be busted out later. For me and my playing style, I take the risk. If I get em cracked, well then so be it. Assuming no one hits a set on the river, my hand is likely to significantly improve due to the high cards being sucked out already. Odds are that at least a Q or J was folded by the other 6 players as well (the other 12 cards that are out of play) leaving the Aces in a dominating position. I say play em. I can also see the argument of laying em down in favor of outplaying the people later (because lets face it, even if one of the weaker hands wins out ... anyone betting a QQ or JJ or AQ or weaker hand with 1 or two other all-ins is likely to be easily outplayed later...that being said...as a rule, I go in with the best of it early and back out when I don't. It's just how I play.

The problem with that is you assume the others have High Cards, And the lower ones will fold. I have seen this play out to many times to count. Some players will stay in knowing that the high cards are out of the deck, Which gives them a high chance of catching lower ones.

One reason you see gus win so many so Called "Trash Cards" He knows the odds in his favor if the top cards are out of play.
  #116  
Old 10-19-05, 09:27 PM
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I just wanted to add after reading a few of these replies that I know which of you are making me money daily and which of you aren't.
  #117  
Old 10-28-05, 04:18 PM
Locohombre Locohombre is offline
 
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Thumbs up Yes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thStreetPokerParties.com
Doyle Brunson has said several times:

"The only hand worth going all-in on during the first day of the WSOP is pocket aces."

How can you play them and risk leaving the tournament on the first hand?... But how can you not play them?

I understand the philosophy of wanting to have as much information as possible before making a decision. But, would you make the a different decision on the 50th hand than on the 1st hand?

You may very well be up against KK or QQ or even AA. I don't see anyone going all-in on the first hand with AK. If someone catches a K or Q, then good for them. You could sit there the rest of the tournament without ever seeing that hand again.

If you're afraid of playing with the best hand in fear of someone drawing a better hand then... you shouldn't be playing at all. Because that's the nature of the game.

I've been in a situation on the first hand of a tourney where I had the nut straight after the turn and the guy to the left of me goes all-in, another guy goes all-in, and I decide to call. We all had Ace-high straights. The only card that can come would be a club on the river to make a flush for one of us to win. The club comes on the river and two of us are eliminated. I felt I made the right play and I don't know anyone who could disagree.

This guy knows what he is talking about!
  #118  
Old 02-08-08, 09:09 AM
pg3 pg3 is offline
 
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you would HAVE to call with the best starting hand... sometimes in poker you need to gamble
  #119  
Old 02-10-08, 04:26 AM
Sean Gecko Sean Gecko is offline
 
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Its says one player goes all in the three players call.That equals 4 players already all in. Now you wake up with pocket AA its time to decide.

Doyle also says that AA and KK win small pots and lose big pots.

Poker isn't winning hands its making the right decision. If you feel that you can PLAY better then everyone else then I say fold. There is 4 other guys trying to get lucky. It doesn't matter which one does it just means you are gone. 10,000 for one hand.

Now if the table were Pros I would go all in for sure because I wouldn't be sure of my post game flop.

If it were people I don't recognize or can tell they are really bad players I would fold. Knowing I can have a an easy shot to take them out by OUT PLAYING THEM. I have won most of my money by out paying people on the flop.

Gambling is important in poker but you only get paid for the right decisions not how big your ego is becuase you pushed all your chips in on a coin flip due to the fact that there are 4 other players in that hand.
Your not playing against one hand you are playing against 4.

Doyle also says on the first day you shoul just let the pots come easily to you getting in to a hand where you are the under dog is not a good idea.

Lets Look at that again 4 players against one for all of your money 10,000

Or wait a little and take them down later with two pair or a flush.

[url]http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/texas_holdem[/url]

AsAd -49.72% tie 1.08%
AK cl- 8.31% tie 1.08%
KhKs - 10.59% tie 1.08%
JdJh- 14.37 % tie .35%
QdQs- 15.73% tie .35

Aces are great heads up the problem is they are just a pocket pair which makes them the second worst hand on the rank card (Royal flush to high card)

Well not that this will change anyones minds go push your chips in and I will still probably call because ace are a cruel cock tease.

Be cool
Sean Gecko
  #120  
Old 04-28-08, 02:12 PM
Lottery Larry Lottery Larry is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
and am a accomplished tournament player.

As far as the Pocket rockets go if there are other callers as tempting as it would be to play you MUST lay them down.....if you are deeper in a tourney and have low chips then ok go for it but in the begining why leave the tournament up to luck? How many times have you had your AA cracked?
I get my Aces cracked as often as the percentages dictate I will. But if you're regularly passing up 3:1 equity on a 1:1 (at worst) chance of winning... I seriously doubt your statement at the beginning.

Quote:
If you are a good player and do have a overlay on the rest of the field there is no need for me to even tell you what to do...
In large tourney fields your supposed overlay on the other players is so small a percentage, that using it as a justification for this VERY poor strategy decision is indefensible.
 

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