Dynamical value of the hand.

Hello!

Can anyone explain me how the dynamical values of the hand are calculated?

I had read several articles (See for example these links: [url]http://www.online-texas-holdem-poker.net/poker_strategy_expert.html[/url] [url]http://www.pokertips.org/advanced/hvalue.php[/url] )

I can calculate odds using free Poker Odds Calculator available from Simtel [url]http://www.simtel.com/pub/pd/81133.html[/url].

If I know pot odds on the river I can calculate expected value, but how it relates to the dynamical value of the hand I have no idea.

If I do not know pot odds I don’t know how this dynamical value should be evaluated.

Any ideas?

Regards, PS

[scoopin]

You talking about implied odds?

Chances are pretty good the original poster will never read this, but it's a pretty good question in a way and so deserves some attention (for future readers).

My interpretation of his question is this - he's trying to determine the "pot value" of his hand, on a running basis, and at the same time more precisely calculate his hand's value based on the number of other people in the pot and their play, also on a running basis. In short, he's trying to most accurately calculate the legitimate worth of his hand at any given time BEYOND the simple mathematical calculation of odds to improve vs. pot odds.

When you can do that, you're ready for the big leagues my friend. Unfortunately, it isn't a mathematic calculation, like determining pot odds. It has far more to do with playing the player, not the cards, and is something I honestly believe comes either with significant experience or superior instincts. You can't just "learn" to figure it like you can pot odds.

But more pertinent to the question at hand is that, well, this ISN'T the question at hand. The technique to which you are referring, "dynamic value of the hand", at least as it relates to pot odds, has nothing to do with determining the value of YOUR hand. Your hand value should be relatively clear to you or you shouldn't be playing. The "dynamic value" in question here is what YOUR actions do for the OTHER player's pot odds, I. E. will your raise drive your opponent out, or will it merely grow the pot to such an extent that he has no choice but to call? This is a huge consideration, particularly in limit hold'em, most especially in LOW limit hold'em. The gist of "dynamic hand valuation" in this case is, just what do you do with, say, your KK versus a queen-high flop with straight possibilities, for instance. This can be a simple answer if you're playing with a table full of boobs who wouldn't know the first thing about pot odds (or any other odds, for that matter), or if you're against only one or two opponents in the hand. Most of the time you'd bet/raise the hell out of your hand and hope you either scare them out or they just don't "catch". But what do you do when the field is larger, and/or the players are NOT boobs and may very well know their precise odds and the calculation of pot odds? "Dynamic hand value" is the calculation of the best likely bet/raise to maximize profit on your likely-winning hand WHILE NOT CREATING SUFFICIENT POT ODDS TO ENTICE ANOTHER PLAYER TO CHASE THE HAND THAT WOULD SURELY BEAT YOU. The situations that cause you to have to make this determination are many and varied, and again require sufficient knowledge of the players involved to aid you in determining the hand they are most likely playing (so as to enable you to properly calculate THEIR pot odds, not yours) and that, in a nutshell, is the "dynamic" part of dynamic hand valuation. It's dynamic both because the calculations change with the cards that hit the board, and because you may have to reevaluate what you've put your opponent on in the middle of the hand...and THEN rate the relative strength of your hand and begin calculating your OWN outs and pot odds.

Geez, I hope all of that made sense...

Nice Lecture....but you never answered the question.

...because I don't really think his question HAS an answer, so to speak...

If I interpret what he's asking about correctly, then the "calculation" changes from moment to moment, as one puts his opponents "on" a hand...essentially the calculation is "my opponent(s) have XX, so he/they have X number of outs, so my bet/raise does X to that player's pot odds for that particular hand or draw". So if I have my opponent on a river-card draw for a flush that would beat me, I know I need to keep the pot odds at less than 5 or (at best) 6 to 1 or so or I'm likely to get called, and possibly beaten. But that calculation changes from card to card, from player to player, from moment to moment...hence, the "dynamic" part.

Now perhaps I've misinterpreted the question...but that's my take on what he's asking.

I understand what you mean.....and I understand that it is hard if not impossible to calculate that information without knowing all of the exposed cards...but I think he was asking (and I may be wrong) HOW to calculate the value....meaning the formula.

I've been playing with moderate success for a long time and actually have just now started learning the math....it's had an amazing effect on my game (my limit game in particular). I enjoy your posts so keep em' coming!

Originally Posted by Iceman37

...because I don't really think his question HAS an answer, so to speak...

If I interpret what he's asking about correctly, then the "calculation" changes from moment to moment, as one puts his opponents "on" a hand...essentially the calculation is "my opponent(s) have XX, so he/they have X number of outs, so my bet/raise does X to that player's pot odds for that particular hand or draw". So if I have my opponent on a river-card draw for a flush that would beat me, I know I need to keep the pot odds at less than 5 or (at best) 6 to 1 or so or I'm likely to get called, and possibly beaten. But that calculation changes from card to card, from player to player, from moment to moment...hence, the "dynamic" part.

Now perhaps I've misinterpreted the question...but that's my take on what he's asking.

...that there really is no formula to know regarding the dynamic hand value he's describing. The only "formula", so to speak, is the exact same formula used to calculate one's own pot odds - just that you apply it as if you're the other guy, after you've put him on a specific hand.

Maybe that's where the confusion is...just how does one determine specific pot odds in a hold'em game as the hand is progressing? Well, that's the coolest (and far and away most important) thing you'll ever learn about the game of hold'em. Keep in mind that, apart from the obvious, this formula really has NOTHING to do with the original poster's question...just that you would use this same formula to (roughly) determine what your opponent's odds of catching would be based on the hand you've put him on.

Now, here's how to calculate, with amazing accuracy, exactly what your odds are at any moment post-flop (again, though, you'll have to have at least a rough idea what you're up against...but then, if you can't put a player on a hand, you've got no business playing hold'em competitively). Let's use the example I put up last post...the infamous four-flush. If you flop two suited cards that match the two suited cards you're holding in your hand, the odds are EXACTLY 1.8 to 1 against you...meaning that you'll hit your flush on the better side of one time in three (if the odds were exactly 2 to 1 against, you'd hit your flush EXACTLY one time in three). Now that's not a calculation that I did on the fly, that's just a mathematic certainty that I (and hopefully every other player reading this!) know from having studied the game. But how could you calculate that on the fly, if you DIDN'T know the precise math?

Well kiddies, pay attention cause this formula will be the most important thing you ever learn about Texas Hold'em (if you don't know it already):

Step ONE - Carefully, CAREFULLY calculate your outs. Bear in mind that if you're shooting for an inside straight looking for a seven, but there are two or three spades on the board and you don't have a spade in your hand, you probably can't count the seven of spades as an "out" since it likely costs you the hand (and costs you big). Again, this is where putting your opponent on a hand is critical.

Step TWO - Multiply the total number of "outs" by the number of cards remaining to complete the hand. So before the turn you'll multiply by two, and before the river by one. Also, bear in mind that this calculation assumes you're playing the hand out, no matter what comes on the turn. In other words, if you're only willing to see one more card (you're going to fold if the turn doesn't help you) then you can only count the ONE card.

Step THREE - Multiply this new number by two percent. This is your percentage for hitting the card(s) that will better your hand and (presumeably) give you the win. SO, let's look at our flush draw...

1. You can see 4 cards of your suit, out of a possible 13. Therefore, to hit your flush, you need one of nine cards...you have nine outs to the flush (is it the nut flush? If not, you may need to adjust accordingly).

2. If you plan to play the hand out to the river (which I strongly suggest you do in most instances), you would multiply the NINE outs times TWO cards remaining to be seen, for a total of 18.

3. Multiply the 18 times two percent, and the odds of hitting your flush by the river are approximately 36%...or about 1.78 to 1 against!

As you can see, this "on the fly" calculation is remarkably accurate, and simple as hell. Remember too that it works for all outs. So if you're holding AK against a queen rag rag flop, and you're sure your opponent is holding just the pair of queens (and no A or K) your "outs" would be six (three A and three K). If you hit one of your outs, you win (unless your opponent hits a second pair...adjust accordingly) and if you don't you lose, so your calculation after the flop would be six times two times two, or 24% (about 3 to 1 against), and after the turn would be six times one times two, or 12% (about 7-1 against).

I'm not going to go into a discussion of determining pot odds here...that's a whole other topic. But if you have a rudimentary idea how to determine pot odds, you can use this on-the-fly calculation to determine when to call if you're behind, etc.

Now, as for the topic at hand...you would put yourself into your opponent's shoes, determine what you feel he's after on the turn and river (count his outs) and then do the math. From this, determine what your bet or raise would do for his pot odds...and act accordingly.

I REALLY hope that nobody I play against reads this...it's one of my best poker "secrets"!

This is great information but to call it you're "secret" is just silly.

Icemans posting has alot to do with determining how much to bet in no limit hold um. I've just recently started to take my game to another level were im winning more then loosing. It all has to do with ether extacting more money out of your hand or giving your opponent the wrong price to make the call. So now I just tend to really lose less because I know that even though someone might be bluffing I know sometimes its not worth in to see.


Thanks Iceman I love the info and insight!!