ONLINE POKER - SITE - Full Tilt

[Cransley69]

VAPoker

You talk as if the only thing that matters in Holdem is the strength of your hand pre-flop, and that's not the case. What matters, more often than not, is the strength of the hand you can represent. That is one of the advantages of having position - you can tell a lot from the betting patterns of your opponent and can put pressure on them to fold the better hand, by representing something stronger. You can generally take advantage of those occasions when they have missed the flop, which will be more often than not.

How do you think Gus Hansen, Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan play...watch high stakes poker and see for yourself...they are ALWAYS playing A5s, heads up in last position. Why? Because it's a positive equity strategy.

This is why playing A5s is a reasonable play here...the vast majority of the hands that opponent is likely to hold, would have missed the flop and why playing an aggressive style at most pots (particularly when last to act) is a profitable play, in the long run.

I averaged $35k a year at the Bicycle casino, (just playing evenings and weekends) playing the style I do at full tilt. The difference was that the cards were dealt randomly. Suck-outs like the ones at FTP occurred the correct amount of times, representing the odds of them happening. At FTP that just doesn't happen. Going all-in with the strongest hand before the river will always return a profit in the long run in real poker. At FTP, as I have found to my cost, you will ultimately lose by playing that way. Hence it is rigged - or whatever term you prefer for a random number generator that clearly isn't random!

What Odds hits the nail on the head. By delivering more action cards the pots are made bigger and their rake increases. There are billions of dollars involved in this industry and a small % increase in the take by the house equals a huge sum of money.

Don't try and pretend that there isn't a financial motive behind what goes on here...there is.

[eldave1]

I appreciate your comments as I beleive they are genuine. For the record - I am sure that there are many folks that would agree with your strategy regarding A-5 suited, etc. - Just recognize that there are many who do not who are very successful players as well. In addition to the actual cards, what is not available is what the intent of the A-5 player was (e.g., to steal a hand, etc.) and what the pattern of the raiser had been - i.e., did he have a read on this guy?

Employing ABC poker (i.e., premimum hands in position only) is one recommended approach to poker. I abandoned it in favor of Danny N's small ball approach as I found it much more profitable - at least for me. I was fininshing to many live tourneys in the bubble area - not any more - winning now. Funny - I won a tourney this morning an the critical hand for me was a min raise I did with A 3 diamonds against a pretty tight player. Flop came A-3-3 - he had A - K and I took all his chips. Had he re-raised me preflop I could have gotten away pretty cheaply. Anyway - I don't think your opinion on the play was necessarily wrong - just wanted to point out that there are many varied valid ways to play the game.

What the poster was frustrated about though had nothing to do with that hand. It had to do - I'm guessing here from my own experience- with a foking inexplicable string of hands where he was in with the best (whether form starting best, trapping, lucky ass flop, etc) and when all the chips are in the hand does not hold up time after time. It is not the bad beat - it is the bad beat pattern, It is the flop that hits just enough of everyone pattern, it is the one turn card that keeps 5 players in pattern that he is reacting to. It wasn't really about A-5.

Take care friend

[Cransley69]

Absolutely spot-on analysis Eldave.

I would never moan about the occasional bad beat - that is part of the game and we all benefit from them as well as lose to them on occasions. It is the frequency of their occurrence at this site, giving a run of improbable results that, taken together, are statistically a virtual impossibility.

The way to win money at poker is to have an edge over the odds, sufficient to make you an above-average player AND to cater for the loss of the chips to the rake...a few percent of edge is all it needs.

You achieve that edge by developing intuition - knowing when to fold a strong hand, knowing when a strong raise will force a timid player to ditch the best hand, etc - and by winning more pots than would be won by your hole cards alone. This last part comes from playing position well, making well timed bluffs and semi bluffs, and maximising your chips when you have a winning hand.

Going all-in with the best hand, heads up, is a guaranteed way to win money in the long term, when playing poker. The odds of the suckout are always smaller than the odds of the win. At this site this is the most glaring "adjustment" of the game by the code-writers - it just doesn't happen the way it should, when compared to the odds.

[Cransley69]

What Odds

It is quite clear to me, seeing these hands, that you and I are having the same experience...I will also bet - and correct me if I am wrong - that between these pocket Aces being cracked each time you did not have any that won hands, unless they were to players who all folded to an average raise.

That is what I find with AA and KK on Full-Tilt...you either lose a stack by the cards being rigged against you, or you just take the blinds.

Anyone else find this?

Oh...and before long that poker god, VA Poker, will come along and tell you its because you're a bad player!

Cransley

[eldave1]

Feel your pain WHATODDS. I lost the last five showdowns as a favorite (rebuilding stacks each time) before going out on the hand below.

This was a perfect flop for me as I was short stacked (thanks to the shit above) hoping to catch other players with rag aces - so I slowplay at first (a mistake perhaps). When 3 people stay in (one guy was already all in) I thought - oh fok - someone has K with better kicker - oh well. Then I say to myself - no, this is FT - some fok is staying with a J-10 gutshot even though there is AKK on the board. Please no Q - at least let me lose to K - 10. Sure as shit - river = Q - gut shot (4ht best hand) wins, As a note - this fok was winning whatever trash he played the whole tourney. egads.

Full Tilt Poker Game #12213891912: Satellite to FTOPS Main Event (91264173), Table 5 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:10:45 ET - 2009/05/14
Seat 1: falafaf (4,280)
Seat 2: de bierkar NL (5,145)
Seat 3: hustletakova (20), is sitting out
Seat 4: loosencrazy (5,620)
Seat 5: cecumm (10,295)
Seat 6: FubiusMaximus (5,620)
Seat 7: eldave1 (2,560)
Seat 8: nicolae05 (465)
falafaf antes 25
de bierkar NL antes 25
hustletakova antes 20, and is all in
loosencrazy antes 25
cecumm antes 25
FubiusMaximus antes 25
eldave1 antes 25
nicolae05 antes 25
de bierkar NL posts the small blind of 150
hustletakova checks
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [9s Kd]
loosencrazy folds
cecumm folds
FubiusMaximus calls 300
eldave1 calls 300
nicolae05 folds
falafaf raises to 600
de bierkar NL folds
FubiusMaximus calls 300
eldave1 calls 300
*** FLOP *** [Ks Ah Kc]
FubiusMaximus checks
eldave1 checks
falafaf bets 600
FubiusMaximus calls 600
eldave1 raises to 1,200
falafaf calls 600
FubiusMaximus calls 600
*** TURN *** [Ks Ah Kc] [6d]
FubiusMaximus checks
eldave1 bets 735, and is all in
falafaf calls 735
FubiusMaximus calls 735
*** RIVER *** [Ks Ah Kc 6d] [Qh]
FubiusMaximus bets 900
falafaf calls 900
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FubiusMaximus shows [Jh Td] a straight, Ace high
falafaf mucks
FubiusMaximus wins side pot #2 (1,800) with a straight, Ace high
eldave1 mucks
FubiusMaximus wins side pot #1 (7,790) with a straight, Ace high
hustletakova mucks
FubiusMaximus wins the main pot (160) with a straight, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9,750 Main pot 160. Side pot 1 7,790. Side pot 2 1,800. | Rake 0
Board: [Ks Ah Kc 6d Qh]
Seat 1: falafaf (button) mucked [As 2c] - two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 2: de bierkar NL (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: hustletakova (big blind) mucked [2s Ad] - two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: loosencrazy folded before the Flop
Seat 5: cecumm folded before the Flop
Seat 6: FubiusMaximus showed [Jh Td] and won (9,750) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 7: eldave1 mucked [9s Kd] - three of a kind, Kings
Seat 8: nicolae05 folded before the Flop

[buck22]

Gone back to my pokerstars account at start of the month, and it really feels like im experiencing the ANTI-RIG! I am playing like a demon of course, and in good shape 90% of the time, but im winning at a ridiculous rate, its awesome, but this month, my roi's are about 130% and BB/hr is like 35, is that just how poker roles? Or is it a bit of a coincidence that the British promotions are on this month hmmmmmm. Hope its just good play and would thouroughly recommend pokerstars at mo lol. Ive been full tilt free for months, good ridence to that bauush*t! If it aint workin, quit the site ffs.

[Cransley69]

Just started playing Titan poker...what a difference. you get the nuts on the turn and you don't get sucked out on....Had three, all-in bets hold up tonight...never used to get that at FTP

[VA Poker]

Denethor,
If you can handle it financially, I would suggest moving up in stakes just a little. As you said, at that level it is very hard to read people and even put people on certain ranges in certain situations. whatodds gave you some good advice about calling re raises pre flop, but at the stakes you are currently playing at it's hard to win with that strategy. You are going to get re raised pre flop so often that if you only play back with AA KK QQ or AK you are just going to get run over. So that forces you to make big calls pre flop with things like KQ, which is not a habit you want to develop . Alot of players have trouble at the lowest stakes then move up and start to do a little better. As far as learning the game goes, you'd be just as well off playing play money as you are playing .01/.02. Also, a good way to see alot of hands at slightly higher stakes without much risk is to play single table sit n go's. They pay out 33% of people so you can play those all day without worrying about losing too much money.

[VA Poker]

Denethor,
I don't know the exact probabilities of these hands but i will assume you have the correct information. What you have to realize though is that in a bubble no hand is probable. Meaning you could pick four random hands and figure out the probability that those hands would be dealt at the same time and it would be very very unlikely. There is no possible combination of hole cards four different people could have that would be anywhere close to probable. If four guys had A4,68,22,KJ that might seem to some to make alot more sense but the probability that the hand was going to be dealt just like that is extremly low. However, if four guys had those hands you wouldn't be posting on here how ridiculous it was. If you honestly think whatever site you are playing on is corrupt then play somewhere else; but spending so much time and energy trying to decide whether or not sites are rigged will never help your game. Even if you are right, it's not going to help you as a poker player. Play somewhere you atleast think you can trust and from there just focus on your game. If you just think they are all rigged just don't play because you will never improve if you are sure you are playing on a rigged site.

[VA Poker]

In my opinion you need to examine your results over a bigger sample size than you are currently. Just because you had a couple bad days doesn't mean you are necessarily doing anything wrong. Even the best players in the world have long losing streaks. Just focus on playing well and making the right decision. If you make the right decision and get sucked out on there's nothing you can do about it.

Also, maybe I'm biased about this because I'm a little older, but I wouldn't put too much faith in all those little programs that tell you exactly how to play. When I first started playing there wasn't even online poker much less all that stuff and I honestly think I am better off because of it. It's hard to get an edge on the field if you are all following the same programs telling you what to do. If you aren't worried too much about the money you'd probably be better off throwing all of that out the window. It could possibly hurt you a little bit in the immediate future but it will help your game down the road.

[Denethor]

I have removed the text of all of my posts which you believe are detracting from the thread. If you want them gone entirely so as not to "undermine the entire thread", you will need to remove the text from your replies, as well.

I have to say that I see some irony and hypocrisy in your posts. You declare with absolute certainty that FTP is actively and intentionally "rigged", but then declare with equal certainty that other sites are beyond reproach. I specifically said I was not accusing PS of being rigged but simply said something didn't seem right lately.

You didn't stop there, though, and further went on to describe me as a "losing player[s] who [hasn't] got a clue about poker and [is] blaming a site being rigged for their losses". When I was complaining about FTP instead, you were defending me as a victim. You're entitled to your opinion on both FTP and PS and my abilities (all of which are likely correct), but don't pretend that you are just "trying to help me" and then use such terms to describe me.

[buck22]

I agree that recording hands as they play out could throw up some dodgy results, but it would take a hell of a long time. You would need to record:
a)hand number
b)table number
c)flop,turn,river precise cards
d)what street the money went all in
e)precise odds of outs
f)out come

This would need to be done over a minimum of 100,000 RANDOM hands without error. I tried this for 100 hands and it took me 3 hrs to record it, and 3 hrs painstakingly calculating odds for each hand. So basically, it comes down to who wants to stare at a screen for 1000hrs keeping precise records to prove that a site is rigged when there is the overwhelming possibility that it's not and that you've just infact wasted a year of your life for f*** all.
If you could round up 100 willing participants, how do you know the other 99 aren't misrecording stats, you'd need to be 100% sure your sh** is accurate.
I reckon the only way to do it is for someone to write a program that can record the desired stats from the poker site and leave it running, otherwise its too time consuming and innaccurate.

Also, if any old dumbass with a spare year can prove a gambling site is rigged, don't you think a multi-billion dollar company would cover their tracks a little better e.g. maybe balancing the badbeats with unusual good stretches to avoid detection from a paranoid with a pencil and pad.

I don't mean to be negative about this plan but if it was that easy to expose a poker site, someone with the computer programming know-how would've already done it, especially if 2 whining gamblers like us have both tried it. Either find a dedicated, out of work system programmer or switch to pokerstars and be done with it.

[buck22]

Ok whatodds, i'll record 200 random all ins and put it in my next post

[buck22]

sorry whatodds, got to about 30 hands recorded and theres about 4 bad beats so far, same thing happened last time i did my 150 hand sample, sort of see a bigger picture when u see all the all ins in a row, seems pretty cosur to me, give it a go urself

[Cransley69]

Played for 6 hours today at Titan Poker. Bought in for $50 with .50 and $1 blinds. Played solid, aggressive poker, exactly as I have always tried at FTP and how I used to play at the Bike. What a difference!

It felt like 'Real' poker, with my hands and other peoples playing out pretty much as they should with just the occasional suck-out. Such a relief to find out that I am not going mad - that you can actually win online.

When I think of the months and months at FTP, playing a game of 'chip-attrition', where every all-in move was met with an outrageous suckout; where my thoughts were "this has to end soon, turn around in my favour" - but never did. I now know from this site that I was not alone - that somewhere along the line I was being had (as other people have been too.)

When are the Feds going to latch onto this and investigate it?

Good Riddance FTP. I won $404 today which is something I could never do at your site. Glad to be out of there, and never going back.

Good luck at the tables all.

Crans

[VA Poker]

Cransley,
You think the "Feds" should investigate FTP. If you are referring to the United States Federal Government you are insane. Don't you know it is illegal for anyone in the US to play internet poker for real money? Thats like saying the "Feds" should investigate your local bookie because he isn't giving you the Vegas odds on Lakers/Nuggets game. If the "Feds" ever get around to investigating FTP it won't be because they aren't giving the right odds it will be because it is illegally servicing US players.


What do you guys really think you are going to accomplish by all of this? Honestly? FTP is worth billions and they operate a business that doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of any particular government or even a governing body of poker, which of course does not exist. If you guys think its rigged just don't play, when you are gambling in a semi illegal manner you can't exactly go cry to the BBB. If there was a local card game in your town and you thought something shady was going on there would you call the cops to investigate or would you just not play there anymore?

[Cransley69]

VA poker

Since I live in England there is nothing 'semi-illegal', as you put it, about me playing online.

If there was a massive scam going on, at the heart of which were several US citizens, many of the victims of which were also US citizens, I would have thought the feds would be interested, irrespective of the legality or otherwise of the activity.

As to your other suggestion - to stop playing there - I have done. Thank you.

[nitemare6]

In case any of you OBC decide to try again playing on this phony scam site. Her is an event from tonight.

I have not played on FTP for a month or more. Even then I only play a small tournament like $1 and no more than $10

Tongiht I sit down UTG. Fold 2 hands. Third hand... REPEAT ---> THIRD third hand

I get PP 3s. I limp in with about 5-6 other players. Pot 210.

Flop comes 356. I bet 90 and get three calls. Pot at 570.

Turn comes 10. I over-bet 700 hoping some clown with a 10 calls me.

All fold but one player who goes A/I. I call about 470.

He shows 10-4!! A fucking pair of tens and a open end str8 sraw, and goes all in. Real swift playing on the 3rd hand of a tournament.

----> Anyone want to guess what the river card was on Full RIGGED TilT ? (nevermind I was a 5/1 favorite).

Guess the card. I will post tomorrow.

Yes........... this was a $1 tournament. But the point is: DON'T PLAY ON FTP.

What fun is it to play with a rigged deck. no matter what you do they have it stacked against good players in tournaments in particular. I am absolutely amazed how many suckers and fools and stupid or obsessed peopel there are in the world who cannot think for themselves, and continue to rationalize or delude themselves that this kind of CR-AP "dealing" is real poker.

Find other sites or play live. Save yourslef the stress.

There is not a single time I go on this scam site (which I do rarely) that soemthing like I mentioned above (if you can guess the card) happens.

ALL THE F-KING TIME!

[VA Poker]

You think it's weird for a player to go all in with top pair and a open ender in a ONE DOLLAR tournament? He would have called even if he didn't hit the 10. IT'S A DOLLAR, whats your sn on fulltilt? I'll gladly transfer you the dollar. Maybe you guys are just noble martyrs who are simply posting here to stop others from playing on the evil empire that is full tilt. I have to say though, posting a bad beat story about a one dollar tournament (or any tournament) makes you look pathetic. Also, about the whole finishing the post tomorrow thing, do you really think there is a bunch of people out there who read your post and just can't wait to here the end of the story about how you got beat out of a dollar? lol you can't be serious.

[VA Poker]

whatodds,
lol @ your post, I'll reply anyway. The reason I haven't replied to anything you said recently is that even though we disagree your points are IMO fair for the most part. I'm not conceding to you that FTP is rigged but your arguments make sense and don't seem to be out of pure bitterness. However, when someone says the FEDS should investigate or someone complains that a player in a ONE DOLLAR game wouldnt lay down top pair and an open ender I just can't help myself. I play 30-50 dollar sng's and there aren't too many people there laying down top pair with an open ender. BTW I was knocked out 3 times in a row a couple days ago by rivered straights after the money was in on the turn and that was on Stars. I don't have an issue with everyone who disagrees with me but the people who complain purely on their own hand history and say its rigged because they won elsewhere and don't win there tend to get a response out of me. It seems like you'd have an even bigger problem with them as they tend to make your argument look weak.

[nitemare6]

The guy hit a 7 on the river to give him a full rigged tilt straight. So the set of 3s were busted by a 18% probability after the turn.

As far as losers who talk about the dollar amount of a given game or poker tournament as having any bearing on whether a poker site is rigged AND/OR whether people should still play the game to win correctly... I have had this discussion/argument ad nauseum with losers like that, for many years. So here is my take (for the losers out their who have such low standards in their own sorry lives that they project it on to others):

when we are young and also when we become adults we compete in games of all kinds. Some play oglf, some basketball or tennis or ping pong or board games or video games or bowling etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Now, most of the time there is not much on the line. Not much money bet. Sometimes you just play well and hard for simple reasons: Pride, comeptition, the challenge of doing well etc.etc.

This is instailled in winning human beings who are rational, funtional and have self-worth.

Now if I had a dollar for every time guys with apparently low standards like VA Poker said the same old worn-out, loser platitude

"it's only a dollar what's the big deal... why play with skill, who cares if you play well, it's ony a small tournie?"........... I would have 1000 xtra dollars in my pocket right now.

But I was raised to have honorable pride, make a difference and try to do your best all the time.

But still guys like VA Poker continue to spit out the nauseating theory that: "you only try to do well and compete well and play well when there is A LOT of money on the line"

Well sorry that guys like him have such low values and standards.

When I play in a $1 tournament I play to win. When I play in a $10,000 tournament I play to win. Most winners do that in life. They compete to win and give their best. That doesn;t mean you are as motivated in a $1 as in a $10,000 tournament; but to me it means you still compete and play like a winner.

Besidees how the F do you get better if you practice like crap and then expect to play really well in a big tournament or game.

What a joke that guys like VA Poker are so unsophisticated that they don't get it yet. Maybe he's young, or if not, maybe he never learned these higher standards or developed enough personal pride.

If you play a pick-up basketball game or a golf match with friends this weekend, for NO money, tell me.... do you nto still try to play your best. DUH

BOTTOM LINE: you can't compete and play well on a RIGGED poker site!

FIN

[nitemare6]

WHAT ODDS

Read My Lips:

FULL TILT IS RIGGED. Don't you get it yet. It is not a random deal. There are pre-programmed algoriuhms.

Sure, some times guys fold and you have conservative players who do not stay in the hand and thus defeat the FT rigging system. That results in some realistic play.

But for the majority of hands they are set up for higher RAKES.

Get it.

Don't play on FTP for more than a few dollars...

...........and only play on a day when you don't mind be aggravated to death!

[nitemare6]

algorythms

[VA Poker]

nitemare,
Thank you for all of your kind words. I would reciprocate but personally attacking people online isn't really my thing. The only reason why I stated the dollar amount of your game in my post is that you acted like the guy should have folded top pair and an open ender. I then responded by saying in a one dollar game, no one will ever fold that. I know about pride and competition and doing your best. I've always told my children that I don't care what they chose to do when they grow up just as long as they take pride in their work an do it to the best of their ability. The reason why the one dollar thing was relevant is that the skill level in a one dollar game is usually very low. Thats just a fact. People who are playing one dollar games usually aren't that good therefore they often make plays you might find questionable. I was not at all trying to say that one shouldn't try in a one dollar game or it doesn't matter or anything like that. I would try just as hard in a play money game as any other game. I also was not trying to degrade you for playing in the game, I would never do that. It was simply relevant because of the level of play in the one dollar games. I wasn't trying to say your opponent shouldn't have cared because its just a dollar I was just saying he might not be at a very high skill level because of the stakes he's playing.


whatodds, to your last question to me... I'm a gold star on PS right now, far from a Supernova but maybe by the end of this year. Also, I have no money in my FT account right now but plenty in my stars so if you ever find yourself with some cash in your FT I'll be glad to make a transfer trade with you.

[buck22]

I keep good records, my 6seat games are awsome ROI's, cash and sng, heads up i just bleed chips, don't know why. I can't explain it with 5 years poker experience, just can't grind a profit even though ive probably played more heads up than any other game, so I refuse to play heads up.
My sharkscope results for all sites in the order i played them in 5 years,including my early sucker periods:
888 = +$1100
Party= +$400
VC = +$1700
Betfred= +$2500
Fulltilt= -$750
Pokerstars=+$3500

Again, I can't explain this difference. The players aren't that different from stars. Screw the individual hand historys that prove sod all, keep excellent records and avoid the losing games. Mine are heads up and playing on Fulltilt. If i ever play these I deserve to go broke.

Poker is a game of so many intricate factors that govern expected value that it's near impossible for someone to sit down in any game and say he has a definate edge. That's why so many people play it.A rigged site is just 1 of 100's of reasons for losing money.

The only concrete imformation about your games are your stats. Keep accurate records of every game you play then focus on your best profit

Keep it real

[Cransley69]

Spot on Buck22

I played at the Bicycle Casino for 5 years, and other than chatting up the cocktail waitresses (successfully - imagine the English guy in Love Actually, in the bar in Wisconsin scene ...[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIXHcOjJpxY[/url]) , and playing decent, profitable poker, the one thing I did after every session was to keep a very accurate spreadsheet, showing what was, in effect, a profit & loss account, including number of hours invested, level played, and notable hands.

After 5 years, playing probably 4 nights a week on average, I knew I was not fluking it. My plays were solid, and my edge came from aggressive play in position, winning a lot of hands with weaker holdings. In one six-month period, playing at the top of my game, I averaged $154 an hour playing $3 & $5 blinds...many attorneys would be happy with that rate. I averaged $35,000 each year I was there, then when I returned to the UK started playing on Full Tilt, and literally COULD NOT WIN.

What astonished me most was the difference in All-in situations. When I go all-in, I do so in the knowledge - correct most of the time - that I am ahead. I'm looking for calls, and when I get them, most times they pay out.

But at Full Tilt, when I went all-in, yes I was ahead most of the time, my reads were correct, but I just could not win. The magic suck-out-card would drop in on the river, virtually EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Looking back I feel stupid for believing the site was fair for so long. I felt I was just running bad, that this was natural variance, and that I would come good, but it never happened. Finally the penny dropped and I found this site and realised that my experiences are shared by many, who are probably good players too. Even VA Poker, who I was very rude to ( I called him a 100% complete arse), has lost all his money on FTP, and he supports the site! (sorry VA).

Keeping accurate records, over a long period of time, will tell you where you are with your game. In order to win money at poker, you just need to be better-than-average-plus-the-rake. I was at the Bike, but not at FTP. It was that knowledge; that certainty, derived from several years playing the same way, keeping those records, that made me realise that I wasn't doing anything different.

It was the game that had changed.

I am 100% certain that FTP is rigged. The cards are not dealt randomly and suck-outs happen far too often. I'm just disappointed that it took me so long to realise it.

Good luck all.

Crans

[buck22]

W'ell if that's true then stars is rigged too whatodds,(i don't perticularly believe this) Seeing lota similar sh*t over here. During May, playing only 4% of my bankroll, i ground $200 to $3300, the graph is ridiculous, but for the last 3 days, i have been brutalised beyond belief. Can't win a single hand whatever I have. AA and KK cracked 7 times IN A ROW, lost literally every single favourite hand ive been in, and in round about 18 games im down nearly $800, it's so gross, and certainly looks unnatural and rigged cos it all is happening in a row.
There's a high chance this just happens, and it looks soooo damn rigged but it's just sick variance. I mean every single site is accused of being rigged, maybe poker doesn't pay out at the rate you expect. Especially when you tilt, thats just burning money.
Personally, what ive seen on stars is no different from Fulltilt, same bullsh*t streaks of 20 buyin drops occasionally that come out the blue.
But f*** it, im up, whoohoo!

[buck22]

If pokerstars did alright by you, then why the hell you still playing fulltilt? Stars has 3 times the traffic, probably slightly worse players, min deposit $10, very quick customer service, same rake, you dont get raped of $10 just for withdrawing, and great player reward system whereas fulltilt has mass riggage!
I understand you want the truth to be known about this site, but why do you all keep playing there when theres a better site available?

[Danimal2000]

Full Tilt Poker Game #12734137941: $3 + $0.30 Knockout (94624055), Table 22 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:59:17 ET - 2009/06/10
Seat 1: xcaptmox (1,570)
Seat 2: Der 2te Sieger (1,340)
Seat 3: Danimal2000 (1,325)
Seat 4: cani81 (1,560)
Seat 5: wxtwiztidxc (1,425)
Seat 6: Maholeb (1,575)
Seat 7: sytten (1,425)
Seat 8: deftleft (1,390)
Seat 9: KeilerSWid (1,870)
xcaptmox posts the small blind of 20
Der 2te Sieger posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Danimal2000 [Ks Kd]
Danimal2000 has 15 seconds left to act
Danimal2000 raises to 160
cani81 has 15 seconds left to act
cani81 folds
wxtwiztidxc folds
Maholeb folds
sytten folds
deftleft folds
xcaptmox calls 140
Der 2te Sieger calls 120
*** FLOP *** [2s 8h 3h]
xcaptmox checks
Der 2te Sieger bets 280
Danimal2000 raises to 1,165, and is all in
xcaptmox raises to 1,410, and is all in
Der 2te Sieger calls 900, and is all in
xcaptmox shows [3c 3s]
Der 2te Sieger shows [6c 6d]
Danimal2000 shows [Ks Kd]
Uncalled bet of 230 returned to xcaptmox
*** TURN *** [2s 8h 3h] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [2s 8h 3h 6s] [8s]
xcaptmox shows a full house, Threes full of Eights
Der 2te Sieger shows a full house, Sixes full of Eights
Der 2te Sieger wins the side pot (30) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights
Danimal2000 shows two pair, Kings and Eights
Der 2te Sieger wins the main pot (3,975) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4,005 Main pot 3,975. Side pot 30. | Rake 0
Board: [2s 8h 3h 6s 8s]
Seat 1: xcaptmox (small blind) showed [3c 3s] and lost with a full house, Threes full of Eights
Seat 2: Der 2te Sieger (big blind) showed [6c 6d] and won (4,005) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights
Seat 3: Danimal2000 showed [Ks Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 4: cani81 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: wxtwiztidxc didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Maholeb didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: sytten didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: deftleft (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: KeilerSWid is sitting out

Originally Posted by Danimal2000

I was very glad to read the posts here cause I thought I was losing my mind. Im on FT for a week and Im up $1200 playing low stakes games. So I cash out and keep $500 for a bankroll.

Then complete craziness happens, Im a very patient player and careful as I know about the nuts online but I am shocked at how my all ins that are beat everytime even though I m way ahead. Of course I understand bad beats happen but everytime. The weird thing is its always a 10 LOL. Its so funny I just laugh cause I know its coming.

Im going to play out my bankroll and never go back again at least Ill have made some money.

Another funny story Im brand new at poker back in 04 never played didnt have a clue what I was doing. Put $20 in for a bankroll after playing with playmoney. So its my second tourney $1.00 entry something like 5000 players and Im very loose and inexperienced I mean Calling huge raises with any paint J5 off won me a huge pot against aa and kk. So I end up winning $800 finishing second. So now Im thinking hey if I read some books and applied myself I could perhaps do ok at this. So I read a few books and practice at low limit for hours and hours and do pretty good. So I cash out 2k and go on holidays.
Ive read the theories about cashing and then going on losing streaks but thought oh they just got greedy and misused their bankroll. So I get back from holidays and the insanity kicks in. Again I cannot win no matter how far ahead I am in my all ins, it happens everytime, so I contact support and say "How is this possible?".(this is stars bye the way). Supports very prompt and good their, and they admit yes you have had some brutal beats but it happens. Im like yeah it happens but when it happens 30 40 times theirs something wrong. (Im not kidding here). Im talking being ahead post flop and getting sucked out on the turn or river to guys ranked in the bottom %10 usually. Any ways I left poker stars for good. I play in casinos and do well and have been very successful in Vegas so I figured somethings up there and couldnt take the frustration.

But I missed playing poker at home and recently injured my back so Im stuck at home and thought Id give full tilt a whirl and well you know.

My question for you guys is Is their a poker site where you dont get clobbered by suck outs?

Please no comments on black helicopters or being a bad poker player I just want an honest site to play on.

Thanks Dan

[nitemare6]

Cransley...

LOL

I just returned to law (after being a professional equity and index options trader for 10 years), I am handling one case where I am getting paid (assuimng client pays) about $200 per hour. I'd rather play poker that put up with neurotic CEOs anyday.

By the way, what does a professional options trader know about math, statistics, edge, odds, probablities? Not much apparently since on F-R-T it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Glad to hear a seemingly intelligent and experienced poker player agreeing what I unfortunately found out a few years ago, after I ahd $10,000 on the site (luckily I only lost about 800) that this site is fixed (i.e. non-random)... at least at the lower levels of play, and tournies. Rigged doesn't mean cheating because someone is winning on rigged hands; it just means that they (the greedy scum running the site) defeat the edge that presumably guys like me and you and VA et al. would have against newbies and other reckless or unsophisticated or non-shrewd players.

On F-R-T understanding odds (IMO) and the other nuances of poker usually means less than it should except maybe on 20/50 and 50/100 tables.

The irony of Full Rigged Tilt for me is, they have the greatest software and "feel" to the site, btu it is just no fun to think every fkign time you play the hand really well, build a pot, check-bet, pplay well out of position and use other winning strategies... you still suffer defeat because of the greed-programming that allows 12-18% shots to hit 50% of the time so that their rakes are higher.

Good luck mate... or is it bloke.