ONLINE POKER - SITE - Full Tilt

[nitemare6]

Played in $1 tournament on Friday - 9400 players

Finished 480 - ITM.

Made bad play after I hit a straight on the river but card was suited to 2 other board cards. I pushed all in which in hindsight was a bonehead play since other guy either folds or beats me with flush. I knew he was in hand for some reason - DUH.

No need to push at that point.

[billytk01]

i just won a borgata tourney in Atlantic City during the summer poker open.. It felt good to see how real poker is played and finally see the cards hold up in accordance to statistics... i felt in control and got my money in usually well ahead... anyways, i got more of the poker itch and i recently reopened my ft account to see if anything has changed on the site since being off for over 4 months... but alas its still rigged as it ever was.... lost on the most unbelievable 1 and 2 outers... lost on incredible runner runners.... improbable hand set ups (hand after hand)... I could post the hands history but its just alot more reading than is necessary.. I found myself folding hands that I never would in any live tourney... I was in a $220+ satellite to get into the 1k monday, and there was 3 peeps left... I was in bb w/ ak (suited diamonds).. anyway chip leader pushes in for 6k and I had 3500k ( i folded)... now most of you will say bad play, but..... I have had this scenario over 100 times where i had ak or medium pckt pr against the chip leaders all in (in which i was favored) and ive lost all of them.. its the pattern of ft, favor the big stack.. so i was doing everything i could to avoid going against the big stack especially since i had more chips then the 3rd player... now i just played another 200 buyin satellite and lost to bigger stack after pushing with top pr and big stack holding bottom pr of 3's and then hit his lone 6 on river to beat me with 2 pr... now the skeptics will say thats just poker.. in which i agree it is jsut poker... but its not poker when it happens all the f'in time...

some people and full tilt argue that the software is not rigged, etc.. and that the hands hold true to real poker statisics, but its easy to skew the mass data.. what people need to look at it is the situations of the event.. example... we need to keep track of all ins between bigger stacks and smaller stacks when the small stack has the bigger stack dominated/ or ahead at time of pre-flop or flop... it is my belief that you will see that the bigger stack wins more than usual in these situations... I really wish someone would track these situations... i really believe it will expose full rigged for what it is....

[nitemare6]

congrat billyk

ANy decent-good player has a much better chance playing live poker to not only win once in a while, but to actually enjoy losing -- unlike Full Rigged Tilt' poker site -- where, in the back of your mind (at least for many of us) we fear that we are not being dealt from a truly random deck of cards, and that really good and strategic poker, good position play, knowledge of odds, EV, etc. etc. and many other aspect of good-great poker (not to mention experience) will be nullified by Full Tilt's skewed dealing systems.

[nitemare6]

Also, there is NO doubt that Full Rigged tilt favorts large stacks versus small stacks late in the tournaments. Absolutely no doubt.

[kuelbreeze]

Wow. I've only had 30 minutes to read the posts, eventually if I have a few extra DAYS I might read this entire thread.... lol.

I made my first deposit at Full Tilt (50) about a month or so ago and I've enjoyed it. I made a deposit at Bodog about the same time and have found success at both sites. I love the Omaha Hi at Full Tilt and love the KO tournaments (bounties). With MTT's I'm only about 16% ITM with a small ROI right now, but I'm only playing micro limit buy-in's so I'd like to see the ITM rate a bit higher. 45 player sng's I run much better, as would anyone without such a huge field to fight through.

In the micro levels the action is not near as loose at Full Tilt as compared to Pokerstars and Bodog. Of course often times a loose table is great, but can get extremely frustrating when a loose player is running hot.

I do have to say one thing though. I don't have the time to properly analyze the RNG's at any of these sites. Perhaps if I played for more money I might. But I've seen so many bad beats over the years, when I lose a hand it really doesn't bother me. When someone makes a terrible play on me and hits runner runner, or pairs his kicker after going all in with middle or bottom pair I'm able to roll with it. These things happen all the time-online and at the real felt. Getting my money in with the best of it doesn't mean I'm entitled to that pot.

And no matter what site I play at, I hear it all the time when someone catches their miracle card on the river..."that's Jokerstars/Full Rigged/Bodog..." Yes, that's just poker. We see so many more hands playing online as opposed to playing live that of course we will see that many more bad beats. I might be playing 4 cash tables and 2 tournaments at once, maybe even at 2 different sites. Those that I know who have been successful at these sites don't seem to have these "rigged" issues that i'm not only hearing about here but also at the online tables.

As far as the big stack being favored, don't know about that either. But I know this, the big stack will be making many more crap calls in a tournament because he/she can afford it and has a chance to eliminate opponents with these "crap" calls. So naturally, at any site, we will see a disproportionate rate of scooped pots by the big stack, they are simply taking more chances with a wider range of starting hands.

Though I've played for many years I have not kept track of my sessions until I met and played every day with a 20+ year everyday player in Vegas. This has made a WORLD of difference. It's easier to see when I'm running bad in time to make adjustments, and also when I'm running good. Helps speed up fixing those leaks. And helps to eliminate the denial factor. I might blame a losing streak on bad luck. But when the results are right in front of my face it enables me to hopefully minimize losses and maximize winnings. Isn't that what it's all about?

I see no merit in blaming the software. If these sites are rigged I'll be glad to eat my words. But I've been at a real table and seen a woman get pocket aces 3 times in a row. I've personally gotten pocket Kings 3 times in a row, and gotten Pocket aces and kings back to back to back to back. At real tables. I'd suggest not playing online if the experience is so terrible and traumatic.

[nitemare6]

kuelbreeze

Did u finish 3rd in a 6300 MTT tournament back in May 2009? Well done.

You know, what would change my mind once and for all, would be to meet some players IN PERSON who have played on Full Tilt and elsewhere and can --> show me that they have earned money over the years. Otherwise all I hear is ONLINE internet names/alleged players (who could be working for the poker sites spewing propaganda) say how they make money, or how the site is not fixed.

It's probably true that you and others are real people playing without the benefit of any affiliation with Full Tilt etc., but unless and until I talk to players in person, and they tell me and show me accounts information demosntrating what you so persuasively wrote below, I will remain skeptical.

So I am curious. Have you met in person players from Full Tilt etc. who have made real money playing at these sites? If so, how do you know what they told you is true?

[kuelbreeze]

Yes and Yes.

I've met a few. The most significant I met online at a PL .10/.25 table at Pokerstars. About 2 or 3 months later I was playing at a local card room (1-2 NL) and ran into him, the only reason we ever found out who the other was is someone started talking about internet poker and he mentioned he played at Pokerstars. From our conversation we figured who the other was. His name was Pete (which is also part of his handle online) and he is very humble and unassuming, but a VERY solid player. I knew this playing with him online, and for sure after our 8 hour session together at the real felt.

I like to enjoy myself at the tables, online but especially the real tables. Online will never replace going to the real tables. Love the interaction and good times at the poker tables. I try talking at the online tables but you have to dodge what I call the "flamers" and "trolls" that populate the online tables: i.e., those that are mostly talk, will call anyone who beats them in a hand a donkey, whatever. Many of those, and countless others who are already legends in their own minds and will pretty much tell you so. When I see that someone is from Arizona I always try to chat them up. Or when I'm out of town I like to ask people who are local to find out where the good card rooms are, but so many at the micro level have never set foot in a real card room... But that's about the only way I actually meet anyone who plays online.

I asked Pete privately what his take was a month and he told me, but there is no way for me to verify this unless I asked him to show me on his account but that's silly, in my mind I don't have to because I've seen him play live and online.

Don't know if I answered your question. Honestly I'd suggest getting on there with 10 or 20 bucks (depending on the site, if you haven't already) and give 'er a whirl. All I can really speak about is my own experience, I've got money in 3 different sites only because I learned the hard way about the variance that comes with consistent time at the tables -online and off. I'm even giving juicy bodog a break, I got hit with runner runner quads twice in one day while playing Omaha and took a big hit, really hurt my little bankroll there because it sent me into Full Blown Monkey Tilt and I kept playing for about an hour.

I would show you mine, but I'd rather get a 18-24 months in to give a better picture. I am in the black but as I've said before it's nothing to brag about. This is my online experiment at a bargain price as I see it.

And since you appear to use [URL="http://www.officialpokerrankings.com"]www.officialpokerrankings.com[/URL] or a similar site, as I do, I am kuelbreeze1 at Full Tilt. I just played a tournament last night, got 48th place and 4 bounties. Would have been in good shape chip wise with my all in JJ vs KQ but Q came on river. That's one thing I don't understand, is someone calling off over 75% of their chips to an all in bet with KQ, after hitting nothing on the flop, but it's their chips.....lol. If I were to play it again I might have value bet instead of pushed after the flop because the all in with a $2 bounty attached to it is a bit more enticing than a value bet... But as some would say.... "That's Full Rigged...."

[billytk01]

to kuelbreeze....

hey bro, the more u play online (namely full tilt) you will start to see patterns emerge.... as i said previously... its easy for a site like full tilt to show statistics that the cards are being dealt according to real world perentages... but you have to look very closely at specific instances such as... when a smaller stack is all in vs a larger stack.. what the % is pre-flop or post flop and at what point in the tourney is the allin... if its early it seems like the smaller stack when leading or dominant the hand holds up but when its late in the tourney its the opposite the big stack seems to consitantly suck out...

this is what brings me to my next point... how is that these weekly tourneys (750k sunday) starts and ends always roughly at the same time no matter how many players are registered.... its improbable that this can happen consistantly.... but it does....

the tourney that I won (chopped at final table/ i was 2nd in chips) at the borgata in atlantic city was a 2 day deep stack tourney but it lasted almost 3 days..... I played in another 3 day deep stack tourney and it was done in 2 1/2.. real tourneys have real time variances which seems to be missing in online tourneys... too conveinant/peculiar that they start and stop roughly at the same time consistantly...

like i said these are just a few examples of patterns, etc.....

i now have closed my account at full tilt for good. and play exclusively at poker stars.....

[billytk01]

ps... even poker stars is getting tiresome for me as well... no matter how tight i play, no matter what hand im holding, i get sucked out on way too much... its just the nature of online poker with full rigged and joker stars... kk on jokerstars = death... on jokerstars, in the last 12 hands that i have had with kk... 6 times all in preflop against lower pckt prs in which the set was hit, 2 times all in pre flop against ak and ace hits.. 4 times all in pre flop against ace rag and ace was hit.... this is the last 12 times in a row.. is this even possible (i mean it is possible but ridiculously improbable)...

it is so amazing, if you slow play a big hand you get consistantly crushed, if you push with big hand you get sucked out on, i never know where i am in any hand... its amazing how many rainbow, harmless boards that i hit hard and lose to runner runner... nothing is safe... the online sites are catering to the fish and luck box players... look at all the peeps that make final tables on the big sunday tourneys and what donks they are.. there roi's are usually always negative... its such a joke....

oh by the way.... just lost w/ kk vs qq on jokerstars all in preflop.... i was joking with my wife that i should just fold and she convinced me not to... hilarious, just hilarious.....

[kuelbreeze]

I hear you billy. I understand your KK frustration. One week I lost with kings all 6 times I got them, online and at the real felt. There were a few which I played too hard, but others which had similar outcomes as yours.

I had to step back and really look at how I played them pre-flop and post flop. The only mistake might have been in a tournament with a 10-7-4 board and a very solid player went all-in I called even with SET! SET! SET! in my head. Of course he had 4-4. Bad call. The other 5 I won't mention, too much pain......

As far as what you mentioned about big stack vs short stack...When I play dailies/weeklies/monthlies etc., I'll keep it in mind and pay attention. Right now at the micro level so many of the tournaments vary in field size. I do love the KO tournaments....I'll pay more attention to the big stack at each table I'm at.

But I've got to be honest, I am short stacked quite often once we get to ITM. I've been able to pick my spots. Many times I'll pick a spot that gives the most value if I'm under 10BB, no matter the cards. Instead of pushing on that ok, marginal hand, or hoping that I wake up with a monster (only to get felted by an inferior hand) before the BB hits me again, I'll pick a spot -if the opportunity comes up- when there are far too many in the hand. Of course these spots don't always materialize but if they do, if there is a raise, a call, a re-raise, call...when it gets to me its auto push. Getting at least 4-1, maybe more, at that stage of the tourny it's a no brainer. Like the 9-2 the other day. So perhaps subconsciously I'm avoiding the heads up with a bigger stack, but really I'm trying to find the most profitable situation. I'm either in great shape for the rest of the tourney of I'm done, but if I wait for another 10-20 hands maybe I move up the pay ladder a few more spots just to be felted heads up in a 2-1 situation.

[jacktors]

Why would anyone want to play with pros or a high percentage of good players for real money. It like you all are star struck. Im always searching for the worst players. If you want to make money Bodog is the site to be on. All those dummy sports betters get on there and get the game out of the muck fast.

[buck22]

One reason most internet players get caned .5/1 and above is cos they read supersystem and harrington, then play cabbages every day. Nothing wrong with that, table selection is very inportant in making money, but so is experience. I have a moto that I never turn down a challenge, simply because if Im better, i win money, if im worse, I learn why. The only way to improve your game and your concepts within the game is to play people better than you.

Players sit at my table, play 10 hands of weak poker then leave. They are weak BECAUSE they leave. Everynow and then it's important to play out your depth slighlty, cos if you dont , the inexperience will kick your ass, players are getting better all the time.

Full tilt has got plenty of donkeys, jus need to sniff em out, wicked site, if only the bastards would give me rake back id be there in a flash. Stars still rules!

[billytk01]

dont even bother trying to play at joker stars..... once your short stacked you are a dog no matter what you are holding to the bigger stacks on all ins in middle to late of the tourney..... so far im 0 for 21 with qq and kk vs any hand (havent run into aa)but i have lost to ak 7 times now... most recently qq vs ak and of course the case ace on river as usual... pstars is a joke....

I really wish there was more options for internet poker cuz jokerstars and full rigged are so f'n corrupt.....

[Ant8472]

I used to post here a while ago because of the extreme frustration and dissilusionment I felt playing at FT. I came to realise that ranting about it might help me vent some frustration in the short term but the only way around the problem was to vary the sites I play on and try and get onto the real felt as often as possible. Real cards cannot be rigged.

Anyway, about 2 weeks ago I came 8th in a $35,000 guarantee winning $735. I was very happy and for a short time it seemed all my luck on FT was changing. I was getting good cards and my good hands were holding up most of the time.

Some time after cashing in this tournament it all turned around and I started getting the extreme, constant horrific bad runs I was getting for months before.

As an example, just in this last week i've played about 25 multi table SNGs. Here is a description of the kind of luck I've been having.

I've had AA about 7 times and it has lost 5 times. Two of those times it was on a final table and in one hand an opponent had AQ (8% against AA). I've KK about 6 times and have lost with it 5 times.

Today I played in 8 games and was eliminated by a river card in about 6 of those games. Now here is the really strange phenomenon thats been happening lately. I've been getting beaten by runner runner straights regularly and I mean regularly. I've lost to a runner runner straight or a straight from a pre flop all in about a dozen times in about 20 tournaments I've played. Most of these were gut shots too! Now if I was also catching miracle straights as well I would think everything is right in the world but I haven't and I have caught up from behind in a hand only once in the last two weeks.

I have literally had about 10 bad beats just today and was eliminated from 6 of the 8 tourneys I played just today.

So I ask, WTF is going on with Full Tilt? I used to think it was my game and that maybe there was some critical I didn't understand about poker. Maybe the cards are meant to behave that way. But my game has improved exponentially in recent months and I now know I am not imagining this. The cards are unrealistic at FT. I used to be an advocate for theories of rigging and used to make my case on many sites on the net.

With the sort of luck I've been getting lately I think I am going to get back on that wagon.

[buck22]

I reckon there's a few rational reasons for your seemingly bad luck Ant8472, but don't blame you for thinking it's rigged, poker is f***ed!
1) Fulltilt and stars are renound 'tough' sites to play at, you may have an edge , but it will be alot less than playing on donkey sites.
2) You play multi-table tournys, variance is huge as you are essentially up against 100's of players in a game of small edges
3) It's gambling, anything CAN happen, I recently had a 2 month bad run where I lost $3900 probably over about 50,000 hands, I read that it is possible to run bad for 6 months so how ever bad ur lucks been so far, theres even bigger tidal waves to come! Get used to it.
4) Your style of play dictates how much variance is in your game. Playing a negreanu-style small ball where you're rarely all-in will help you survive better (which is better for tournys) but you will be sacrificing equity, whereas a Tom Dwan loose style has extremely good runs accompanied by terrible bad runs. Maybe you need to work at controlling pot sizes so you're not risking tournament life in marginal situations.
5)Poker is a game designed for players to lose, maybe your game needs a little more improvement so that your winnings cover these epic downswings in the long run. Hard to admit, but ill bet you anything that in a year, you'll look back and say 'wow, i really didnt have a clue'.




There's a misconception in the game that you can't lose for more than a few days or weeks but oh you can.

[chronicace22]

IN my experience ABSOLUTE/ULTIMATE BET, POKER STARS, AND FULL TILT ARE ALL RIGGED SITES!! WHATS my next step someone please tell me where to play now, on these sites listed above the worst hand wins a mojority of thetime, and i get the same cards over and over

[chronicace22]

POKER ONLINES SO RIGGED, And ive won big tornys befor on these sites listed above with practically no hands , but there always!!!! always comes a point the next day when the cards i get are rigged!!! i get ten four 5 itmes in a row followed by 27 twice followed by poc 10 three times!!!! - this is just one war story , and all these hands hit nothing , i know its rigged people , where do i play now??? cake network???? bodog?? i just dont know

[buck22]

The sites you've named are among the toughest sites in the world to grind a profit at. In poker 90% of players lose anyway. Now, ask yourself again if you really think it's rigged or maybe there's another reason.

Poker is a game of small edges battling the rake and increasingly better players, which means profit varies considerably, within a few thousand hands ANYTHING can happen, over 100,000 hands you will get a truer value for your equity in the game, be it positive or negative.

The most worrying part is to come though, 'you haven't seen sh** yet'. Running bad for a week every now and again happens, but you haven't had an oober downswing yet have you? I grinded $10-$8400 over the last 8 months and have just watched $4500 of it evapourate, A 3 MONTH DOWNSWING!!! AND ITS STILL NOT OVER!!!! Apparently, theres a gambling book that says it's possible to run bad for 6 months!!

'Random' does exactly what it says on the tin, it'll soar your bankroll at an alarming rate. and it can screw you for every penny, this happens live and online, if you said 'ive played for 6 years and had a steady monthly wage' then i'd say it was rigged,cos it just doesn't work like that.

A pro once said you're not a true poker player until you've experienced the worst, 6 month wammy of downswing, and I believe it, as soon as you realise the true nature of the beast and the volitility of poker, you can't hope to be playing your best game at the felt.

FullTilt aren't dumb enough to have one over on their own pro's, all live players too, they wonj't be fooled when they take millions of dollars to the table. So ask ICALLSOWHAT, GUS HANSEN, KAIBUXXE, BRIAN TOWNSEND, TOM DWAN etc if they think it's rigged, cos theyve had bigger downswings than you'll ever see in your life.

Bottom line, you're either not getting a big enough edge on the game to break the rake, or your on a downswing and need to ride it out. Telling yourself these sites are rigged won't help you improve in the game, keep an open mind about how you play. Good luck all

[billytk01]

to buck22.... this response is in no way hostile or to be taken in any bad way...

It just seems to be that you are not seeing the true nature of online poker... everything that you speak of (ie... the downswings, grinding, 90% of poker players are losing players, etc...) are all pretty much true when it comes to "live" poker, but I tend to digress when you say it applies to online poker aswell..... I too have seen so many patterns that are present in online play (ie... incredible, constant and inevitable suckouts by bigger stacks late in tourneys against the all in smaller stacks, constant and consistant runs of dealt cards in hole (ie.. being dealt 10's five times in a row followed by 2-? three times in a row, followed by ??? you get the idea).... as I have stated many times before in previous threads that its easy for poker sites to skew the mass data into make people think that the odds/implied odds of hands are true to live poker standards/percentages but in order to get a true idea of whats really going on is you have to look at specific instances/situations (ie....such as all ins by a short stack against a big stack, how many times a flopped draw [either flush or straight] hits against a pckt pr or over pr, etc, etc......) In my personal experience, I have won over 200k on full tilt in 2008, but as soon as i cashed out it was all down hill from... losing on you name it impossible scenarios... It got to the point whenever i got dealt big pckt prs such as AA or KK I felt i was being set up and usually i was right losing to weak 2 prs, etc.... (even if i bet big pre-flop it didnt matter cuz the fish were rewarded..) oh heres another thing i love about online poker... why is that whenever I flop a set is it always in the middle of a straight or flush draw... Im serious when I say this.. about 90% of the time i flop a set in the middle of a draw... its hilarious.... anyway I have since closed my full tilt account for good (I sent ft a very nasty email) and now I have been playing on pokerstars (ie... jokerstars is what it should be called) and it is just as bad if not worse then FT... right now I am 0 for 17 with kk on jokerstars in all ins or calling another players all in... again just last night playing another tourney on jokerstars I had kk late in a tourney ( i had about 6k in chips... under the gun raised to 2k, i pushed all in for 6k, everyone else folds.. utg calls and shows 66... i told my wife watch this, i said he will flop a set or hit on river.. sure enough 6 on river.... I just laughed at the garbage... anyway... I am done with online poker for good until the US legalizes and regulates it within the states... oh well, enough ranting...

PS.... I am heading down to the borgata in atlantic city on saturday 9/18... I am playing in the World Poker Tour at borgata in sundays field... 3,500k buy in.... so keepin fingers crossed that run pretty good.... Wish me luck guys...

[buck22]

Just a thought, but everyone who posts on this thread hasn't found it by googling 'Full Tilt forums' or 'Full tilt opinions', they've typed 'Full Tilt rigged' so surprise surprise, you get a group of players that all have had a serious downswing. The stats you are grouping ,whatodds, are extremely biased. As opposed to taking random samples of players stats, you are taking random samples of just LOSING players stats.

I am in the eye of the most epic downswing I hope I will ever encounter, 3 months and down around 40-50 buyins. I have played my best poker and had my money in great but variance is kicking my arse. This bad run has followed me through 4 sites. they can't all be rigged. and the funny thing is the only place I made money was 4000 hands I played on Fulltilt. This bullsh** is on every site.

Maybe they're rigged, maybe not. But you have to ask yourself. With all the stats software available, more professionals playing than ever before, all the customers they have, all the money they make anyway, WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY RIG IT? One thing I know is either none of them are rigged or ALL of them are rigged, occam's razor, which do you really think it is?

[LukeS]

This is my theory of on line poker sites. I have played from party poker days to full tilt now and belive that all these sites are rigged in a manner that favors the new or small time player. If you are a regular player that plays for entertainment that can afford, say $500.00 to $2000.00 each month, chances are you will never get ahead. Why, because these sites love guys like you that keep coming back every day. Say they know a certain individual usually loses $200.00 and doesn't come back for a month, versus some who can afford much more, who do you think they want to see wins? The $200.00 guy of course,
because if all these guys get knocked out there's
no more game and guess what, no more rake. I play alot of sng tournaments and constantly see all-ins
that the worst hand wins. There is no way King Jack can dominate Ace Ten 8 out of ten times, but sure enough it does. I also play alot of omaha hi and constantly see someone holding AA raising pre flop getting called with whatever, and guess what the flop will be. Chances are the whatever hit 2 pair and the AA has a flush draw, so it becomes an all-in situation. These flops happen to generate action at the tables. But the bottom line to me still is, if your a regular player willing to lose a decent amount every month, you will lose to a new or smaller player. They need to keep these players in the game or no more rake for them. I've played on this site now for 3 years and i'll green note all players who sucked out on me with stupid draws; guess what 2 weeks later you'll never see them playing again, because yes in time they will lose due to their bad play, but they got your money which is what these sites want knwoing you'll keep coming back.

[billytk01]

buck 22 said.... "But you have to ask yourself. With all the stats software available, more professionals playing than ever before, all the customers they have, all the money they make anyway, WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY RIG IT?"

first, What professionals do you speak of? I very rarely, and I mean rarely if ever see any of the big name players such as hansen, negraneu, ivey, matusow, raymer, ferguson, greenstein, etc... playing online unless its a big sponsored buy-in tourney on stars or tilt in which they are obligated to play... the only pros "i guess you would call'em pros's, i use the term loosely" that i see online are the regular online players such as elky, dwan, etc...

Second, you ask the question why would the online poker sites rig anything with all the customers and traffic that they currently have...???? the reason is simple my friend... GREED!!!! and the fact that there is no where else to play at the moment that is safely regulated.... Until the United States govt decides to legalize online poker (gambling) and actively fairly regulate these sites then we will continue to be at the mercy of whatever these unregulated sites want to do... think of it this way... lets say you win a huge tourney on stars for lets say 200k, and then stars decides to open up a random and unwarranted investigation based on whatever they want to make up and then decide against giving you the money... guess what? you have no recourse... nothing you can do, no one you can contact... these are the people that we are dealing... now im not saying that this is something they will do, but they could do it and theres absolutely nothing you can do about it....

PS..... I didnt have much luck at the World poker tour in atlantic city at the borgata... I was virtually card dead from the start until my demise in the 7th level of day 1.... anytime i did pick up a hand such as AK or AQ it was a total airball on the flop for me, just as well as anytime I held a middle pocket pair the board would hit with all over cards.... anyway I finally busted out in the 7th level with A10s... called 1+ utg raise (3x bb) with my aforementioned A10s, and the flop came 10h 4s 7s... Utg bet 2k, I raised all in for last 13k, Utg tanked for about 3min and called... UTG tabled QhQd... no help on turn or river and I was gone.... I left the tourney with a disgusted feeling cuz i never felt i got to play at all.. I felt like a starting qb who never got to throw a pass and just took a bunch of sacks... i mean i was so card dead that i could not make any moves whatsoever.... oh well....

[eldave1]

haven't posted in a while - see the argument rages on - I am still on Billy's side of the issue. If you looked at the overall stats - they hold up (e.g., your KK will win 75% of the time - BUT - that includes all the times you had no caller for your KK - if you look at showdowns - ugh!!)

I ignore the overall stats and simply look at all in show downs - for me this is a fact - MOST OF THE TIME more then 50%) WHEN I GET MY MONEY IN AS THE FAVORITE - I DO NOT WIN. If I add in the 'WTF hands" it is even worse. For example, I have AK and raise 4 times the BB preflop. I get one caller and the flop comes A-K-7. I raise and get called. Turn comes 7 and the guy shoves - I call and he shows 7-4 off suit. Sure I was the dog at all in - but -no way the fella should have been in the hand - no way I could fold. That happens a lot. They are the type of players you hope for live and dread on-line.

There are a lot of other things you see on-line that are inexplicable versus the live game (e.g., how many times a flop hits three or more players. If I had a nickel for every flop that gave player 1 a straight, player 2 a set, player 3 top two pair and player 4 a flush draw I would be a very rich man. As you already know, the flush draw wins.

More and more live players I know are leaving on-line altogether based on their belief that it is rigged - folks who love poker leaving the sites - antecdotal I know, but I think it is telling.

Lastly - even if it is random (which I think not) - I hate the RNG at FT because - as they state themselves, card distribution is influenced by mouseclicks, how long a player takes to act, etc. That means you can never tell when you fold whether you would have hit the flop or not (i.e., because your fold action changes the card dist) - makes it less enjoyable for me

Anyway - my three cents

[buck22]

Tracking software any player can buy for $80 tracks stats such as 'All-in EV', so why the hell would any site rig all in situations when any player has the ability to collect stats on it? Data-mining sites with billions of hands tracked, do you really believe Fulltilt, a multi-billion dollar company would rig their software AND over-look the fact every hand on their site is tracked by millions of webpage businesses and players? Do you think maybe after billions of hands being tracked they would have been caught by now by people far smarter than all of us put together? It would be like walking into the royal mint, and walking out the front door with a wheel barrow full of cash! They would never get away with it! And sacrifice a business growing by the day!! Do you see where im coming from? AM I GETTING THROUGH TO YOU AT ALL?

Eldave, for the love of god PLAY CASH GAMES!! The turn will be a 7 1/13 times so get a stack that you can make a read and muck your hand when it's dead in the water. Playing by the book doesn't make it the right play, 'was it the right play for the situation?' is what you need to be asking, could you keep the pot smaller or even fold when a scary turn comes?

Create a thread ' Discussion on hands and strategy' cos you're barking up the wrong tree when you blame rigged sites.

When you play in tournys with 1000's of people in, and you play well, 99% of them you will get a hurendous bad beat, because....drum roll...........Other wise youd win $10000s every game, the flip side of winning $25,000 being is bad beat out of the tourny. Play cash and SNG's and you bankroll will have less variance.

Now before anyone puts in the next post, just glance through all my posts and ask yourself 'Can you find a post by me that doesn't give a rational reason for what has happened in your game?'

[buck22]

so you win more coin flips to balance out 2to1 draws? so theres players losing more coinflips than they should, but hit more 2to1 than they should? They must have to group there players to win/lose certain hands or poker is a volitile game and a longterm player is gonna go through patches of weird swings.

Problem i have is players say this about all the sites, sites I win on, but occasionally experience wild swings and bullsh*t variance. IT DOESN'T SEEM POSSIBLE TO BE BAD BEAT 6 TIMES IN A ROW!!! but considering ive played 6-7 years, seeing around a million hands, what can't happen?

You've had downswings obviously, but ive just come out of a 60 buyin downswing! I lost $4k in 3 months, complete bullsh*t. But ask a mathmetician if this can happen some point in a million hands and he'll probably tell you it's likely.

It is far more likely that you need to either improve your game OR change your mind-set of the game. Gambling books say a player can run bad for 6 MONTHS!! I guaruntee that your bad luck is a molehill compared to this, so accept bad beats and cold-decks happen whenever and for how ever long they bleedin like.

[eldave1]

You write:

"Tracking software any player can buy for $80 tracks stats such as 'All-in EV', so why the hell would any site rig all in situations when any player has the ability to collect stats on it? Data-mining sites with billions of hands tracked.."

No shit sherlock - I use Poker Tracker now and used Hold em manager before that. So, my data for my hands comes from that. NOW - sit down for a moment and take a breath - there are not "billions" of hands out there for data mining - that is a falsehood on your part. A player only has access to his hands. The sites keep the hands to themselves. None of them release them. So - you are just wrong.

You write:

"They would never get away with it! And sacrifice a business growing by the day!! Do you see where im coming from? AM I GETTING THROUGH TO YOU AT
ALL?..."

No - your not. I guess you're not familiar with any firms that have risked an otherwise successful business by using shenigans - guess you don't remember Worldcom, Enron, etc, etc. It has happened time and time again. The what incentive do they have argument is tiresome. History is full of firms who cheated to make an extra buck and as a result brought their entire company down.

You write:

"Eldave, for the love of god PLAY CASH GAMES!"

WTF makes you think you have any clue on the types of games I play. So you don't have to guess, I play MTTS, SNGs and yes - CASH. I also play live five or six times a week at one of the many casinos here in the LA area. I pretty much play full time (about 60 hours worth a week) and am quite profitable in live play. So please - spare me the amateurish advice.

You write:

"Now before anyone puts in the next post, just glance through all my posts and ask yourself 'Can you find a post by me that doesn't give a rational reason for what has happened in your game?'"

First - yes I can find them. Second, don't twist your ankle falling off your pedastal. Here is the reality - DRUM ROLL...there are experienced, knowledgable poker players that beleive on-line is rigged - we really are not waiting for you to come down from the mount and deliver us the wisdom of the game. Change you tone and I'll have a reasoned discussion with you - if you're just going to be an arrogant ass - don't bother

[eldave1]

Dead on what odds

[eldave1]

I would add that you do not often see the crap cards and sick calls in live play because those players have learned that you do no get paid off in the long haul when that is your game - i.e., they experience losing and therefore change to become better players. There is no such disincentive in online because the way the card hit tell you to play the crap

[buck22]

Realised in past few days that the rate at which you see hands can really warp your view on odds. Ive been multi-tabling last few days, and the bad beats and cold decks are hurrendous, both ways. Play 8 tables and you'll vomit every 5 minutes. Compared to playing one online table, it can seem like youre the unluckiest guy7 in the world one session and the luckiest the next. Considering around 35 hands/hr get dealt live to 100-150/hr online, its not that different between the gap of 1 online table and online multi-tabling. Yet difference in feeling the game when it comes to outdraws is huge! Anyway, fulltilt is the toughest site on the net, and I don't think you give enough respect to the fact that stupid calls (for stupid reasons) can actually be a better EV than folding. I've noticed that due to the loose nature of online players, idiots can actually walk into making a not so bad play. With these loose players, the variance is much higher than a table of good players.

Anyway no-ones coming forward with these rigged stats, noone ever will (personally i think its because they are fictional) So why are you still playing at Fulltilt when Americans can play on pokerstars, and it's much better anyway? Please tell me why u are still there

[eldave1]

Buck writes:

"Anyway, fulltilt is the toughest site on the net, and I don't think you give enough respect to the fact that stupid calls (for stupid reasons) can actually be a better EV than folding. I've noticed that due to the loose nature of online players, idiots can actually walk into making a not so bad play. With these loose players, the variance is much higher than a table of good players."

First - Stupid calls for stupid reasons can never be positive EV - that is unless the site is rigged. I guarentee you will never hear a live player say - ya know - I think I'll make some stupid calls for stupid reasons. This may be the worst argument I have heard.

Buck writes:

So why are you still playing at Fulltilt when Americans can play on pokerstars, and it's much better anyway? Please tell me why u are still there

First - I don't think Joker Stars is any better then FT. I think they're both juiced. There are two reasons why I play on-line:

1. I make my money live - there has been a wave of players into the live games and it is essential to be able to recognize these players (for example, someone doesn't fold a flush draw when they obviously were not given the right price to call, when they shove their $5,000 stack with only $150 in the pot, etc. etc. = online player. So - I play online to keep in touch with the online style - they are the easiest players to trap in live games - just got to be patient - and you'll stack them.

2. To keep track of betting patterns. One thing about on-line is that you need to develop skills to track betting patterns as there are no other real tells. I do not use software when I am playing on-line for that very reason - I want to exercise the mental discipline to remember seat three has raised three straight times on the cutoff, etc. This exercise has translated well to my live play.

That's it