ONLINE POKER - SITE - Full Tilt

[nitemare6]

12-03-07

The online poker world tonight is buzzing about the revelation that there has been another cheater caught in a high profile online poker event.

Let's rewind about a month. Chris "BluffMagCV" Vaughn, an employee of Bluff Magazine, took down back to back Sunday Million tournaments. First he took down the Full Tilt $1 Million Guaranteed tournament, and then the very next week he took down the Sunday Millions tournament on Pokerstars playing as "SlippyJacks."

There were rumblings about possible shenanigans in the Full Tilt Poker tournament, but the story didn't really come to light until Soren "Kongsgaard" Kongsgaard posted that he had received an email from Full Tilt Poker stating that "BluffMagCV had been disqualified from the tournament and "Kongsgaard" would be awarded first place money.

The stated reason for the disqualification? Full Tilt Poker said that an already eliminated player had taken over "BluffMagCV"'s account late in the tournament. Apparently the player that took over the account was promised a % of the total profits in exchange for finishing out the tournament.

This player who took over the account is reportedly Sorel "Imper1um" Mizzi, and apparently he too has been banned from Full Tilt Poker.

If Mizzi did in fact participate in this scheme and he was in fact banned from Full Tilt Poker, it is obviously a huge deal, as Mizzi is one of the most popular and successful poker players online. Mizzi has been noticeably absent from Full Tilt Poker as of late, so it would certainly appear to be true.

Full Tilt has been tight-lipped on the matter. What we do know for sure is that "BluffMagCV" was 100% disqualified from that tournament and banned, and that a high profile player took over his account and was also banned. At this point, the evidence would certainly seem to point to Mizzi as the well-known player who took over the account, but we don't have 100% confirmation as of yet.

Was the "Slippyjacks" victory on Pokerstars tainted as well? Pokerstars closely scrutinizes every player who makes it to the final table of any major event on their site, so there is a good chance that they have already investigated and found nothing to be wrong with the victory on Pokerstars. The "SlippyJacks" account is currently not banned on Pokerstars.

You have to wonder how much of this stuff is going on that is never discovered. If the players who perpetrated this scam weren't so reckless, they probably never would have been caught.

This stuff is just horrible for online poker in general, and sites are going to have to come up with a better solution for dealing with this kind of cheating. I wish that the sites would band together, and if a person is caught cheating on one site, they are banned from them all.

Also, I believe that online poker sites need to stop shielding the identities of known cheaters, and start publicly naming people that have been caught cheating. Why shouldn't the public know about it? If you are caught trading stocks in the USA with insider knowledge, you are publicly named by the SEC. What's wrong with that? There has to be a stronger deterrent to cheating. Right now the reward is far greater than the risk of getting caught.

[simo1981]

One of the big problems with online poker: The more popular the site, the more people there are that you will be playing that are prepared to chase even the smallest draw all the way to the river, and hence more potential for someone to suck out on you. For example if the % of these players is 3% then there are 1800 of these donkeys on full tilt at its peak time. Stick to the less popular sites with less traffic and do as I do and close your full tilt account, you are throwing good money after bad.

[ohsnapkid]

wow. thanx for this thread. i thought it was me. the experiences reported here are my experiences on ftp. luckily its only been play chips. but i have had stacks of up to 23M just vanish over the course of weeks of ridiculously bad beats. my hand history shows how unbelievably non-random this site is. 23x in a 1500 hands I had ak, aq, aj, at and flopped two pair. ridiculous in itself. but always up against an opponent playing ace-rag. and either rag showed up in flop and then another rag on turn or river. or no rag on flop but turn AND river are rag-rag.

it just got to the point that i was no longer playing poker but just guarding against bad beats. i have 9-10 suited. flop is k, 9, 10. i just know qj has been dealt so i fold. i watch the hand and qj has indeed been dealt. ftp finally resorted to the full house v better full house scenario to break me. and i will never be back.

ftp is all about dealing multiple players a hand or draw that can call an all-in bet. for anybody that's played live poker, its difficult to get paid even when you flop a set from a pocket pair. usually your opponents dont have anything to call with. on ftp they are raising you all-in.

when they get around to auditing their random number generator, audit this. the number of paired flops (flops, not boards) is ridiculously non-random. And with only 2 ranks, it would be typical for all players to miss. but on ftp, take 3,3, king. almost always a 3 and a king will have been dealt. and for more action two players will have a 3.

rake city.

ftp is a bad site to learn on because all it teaches you is that top pair/top kicker or top 2-pair is never good. it gives players such distorted views of the odds that you will either be fearful or broke. and the fearful are only delaying being broke by folding hands that should win.

basically ftp skips all the hands where ace-high or king-high would win. only the action hands are left.

[RookOverHere]

Please someone enlighten me on how the chip leader ALWAYS wins! This is not some tilting rant about crushing beats. This is an honest question. How the F%$K does the chip leader alway win no matter what? No matter what garbage he/she has they always hit the GD miracle on the river, not sometimes ALWAYS. This is disgusting. I only see it at low levels 24$ and below. Why is that? I play the Sunday tourneys and have placed 18th in the Sunday Brawl and don't see it there so WTF gives. One of you online geniuses please explain this fascinating anomaly to me! I'm all ears. Is it the fact that they have so many chips they can call anything (and should in the right situation 10/1) if so why does this not hold true (every FN hand) at higher levels? They are for the most part much savvier players but they do not win every single pot just because of this factor. So all the idiots that swear online poker is on the up and up in all facets please explain this one to me. This also does not hold true live (at least in my experience). Between the threat of collusion, boiler rooms, and the F-ed up code I stay amazed people actually turn a profit. Maybe I just don't get it online, seems to be: start when your 16, play garbage in any position to any amount no matter what the circumstances and just WIN! WIN! WIN! If you try to improve and better yourself at the game it will only serve to make you crazy online. Live it works great, you can see an improvement in your play and in your bankroll but online just play like an idiot and the site will love you, reward you with amazing perfectly timed suck-outs and send you a little T-shirt. O.K. I'm done.

[simo1981]

I never got a t-shirt

[ajk1973]

Just HAD to share this beat I just suffered in a FTP tourney. About 75% of the time on the luckfest of a site I bust out to horrible moves by bad players, but this one takes the cake. Hand history is posted below. I'm SoDak30, watch the brilliant play of slumz and his unreal suckout, Keep in mind this is late in a tourney with an over-11K first prize ... this donk play put him in 1st or 2d place:

Full Tilt Poker Game #7829989555: $35,000 Guarantee (58794938), Table 51 - 800/1600 Ante 200 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:58:45 ET - 2008/08/27
Seat 1: DonT11 (39,408)
Seat 2: slumz2000 (77,221)
Seat 3: msmemery (16,618)
Seat 5: kice32 (37,090)
Seat 6: SoDak30 (50,490)
Seat 7: Bertrand13 (26,154)
Seat 8: ToBlaeve (20,189)
Seat 9: FijiIslandQueen (7,223)
DonT11 antes 200
slumz2000 antes 200
msmemery antes 200
kice32 antes 200
SoDak30 antes 200
Bertrand13 antes 200
ToBlaeve antes 200
FijiIslandQueen antes 200
SoDak30 posts the small blind of 800
Bertrand13 posts the big blind of 1,600
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SoDak30 [Qd Qs]
ToBlaeve folds
FijiIslandQueen folds
DonT11 folds
slumz2000 has 15 seconds left to act
slumz2000 raises to 4,125
msmemery folds
kice32 folds
SoDak30 calls 3,325
Bertrand13 folds
*** FLOP *** [8h 7c 3h]
SoDak30 bets 8,000
slumz2000 raises to 72,896, and is all in
SoDak30 calls 38,165, and is all in
slumz2000 shows [5h Ac]
SoDak30 shows [Qd Qs]
Uncalled bet of 26,731 returned to slumz2000
*** TURN *** [8h 7c 3h] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [8h 7c 3h 2c] [4d]
slumz2000 shows a straight, Five high
SoDak30 shows a pair of Queens
slumz2000 wins the pot (103,780) with a straight, Five high
SoDak30 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 103,780 | Rake 0
Board: [8h 7c 3h 2c 4d]
Seat 1: DonT11 folded before the Flop
Seat 2: slumz2000 showed [5h Ac] and won (103,780) with a straight, Five high
Seat 3: msmemery folded before the Flop
Seat 5: kice32 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: SoDak30 (small blind) showed [Qd Qs] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: Bertrand13 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: ToBlaeve folded before the Flop
Seat 9: FijiIslandQueen folded before the Flop

Probably most typically of all, after the win slumz showed no humility, but rather cocked off with a "weeeeeeeeeeeee" and a "thanks for the chips." FTP is simply a joke. The hand above isn't some isolated incident ... horrible plays are constantly paid off there and nowhere else have I found my solid play to be more consistely shoved up my ass, especially when it counts.

[simo1981]

that is fu**ing disgusting

[Turbo Steve]

I took a simlar beat the other day, but that was in a freeroll.

[nitemare6]

ajk193

that is a typical BS rigged hand on full rigged tilt bingo. Sure those things happen sometimes in poker. On full rigged tilt however that is the rule not the exception. Hand values and odds mean nothing to the crooks running that poker site. And beccause players can't mathematically "prove" that it is skewed/rigged etc. they continue to get people defending them, and playing there hoping to beat the rig.

[nitemare6]

As a counterpoint to my prior post and my overriding belief that FTP is "rigged">>>>

I just played (5) play-chip tournaments of HORSE on FRT. I won 3 tournaments and finished 3rd in another. This were both 9 and 18 player tournaments.

I did this due to a friend of mine who is a Ph.D. in math saying that "maybe if I didn't quit playing every time I had a "bad beat", i.e. felt the hand was rigged and kept playing what I claim to be solid experienced shrewed poker I would over the "long term" win more".

Well that is what a mathematician would say fter I repeatedly told him ad nauseum about anecdotal "evidence" of ridiculous and improbable beats. So I took his challenge and played in these tournies (and I must say honestly as a big-time critic of FRT that there were some really good players on these tables. Many of the hands did not involve 3-5 players like in the donk small cash games and tournies. Perhaps these were guys who like me had stopped playing cash but still wanted to see if they could compete online, and find legitimate play. Perhaps it was because I have played 20 years and thus am more familar with all games not just hold 'em than newer players. Maybe I got lucky.

[wu977]

how does counting works? i know how to count, but what is +1 +2...... what do we use it for?

[ajk1973]

I get a good laugh out of FTP support. I've asked them on mutiple occasions to share the results of the audits they have done that supposedly prove their software is random. They completely ignore the requests, but do assure me that they are "certain" their software is random. I've also asked them why, when I track hands in an admittedly statistically invalid way, not once have the numbers even approximated the odds. Variance is the answer. Uh-huh. So I ask if they think it's peculiar that, for example, never have I tracked KK to beat A rag more than what should be expected ... it's every time the case that A rag wins at an unbelievable high rate. Variance is a funny thing, they say.

Well, I must admit I'm a moron who keeps plugging away there. I intentionally played badly a couple months back and ended up 4/775 in a tourney. That was funny and revealing, I thought.

I have dreams of making some final table on TV sometime and wearing a shirt that say "f*ck online poker" or something like that. But, unlikely to happen.

[kdanwill]

Twenty Things I've Learned About Full Tilt
1) Nobody folds an ace. People would rather witness the death of their firstborn than throw an ace into the muck.
2) When you are shortstacked and looking at pocket ladies, somebody has aces or kings.
3) Every hand, there are at least two people playing suited cards, usually both below a ten.
4) Winning percentages do not matter to the bigger stack. You will win 85% of the time regardless of your cards.
5) Top pair after the flop generally means nothing.
6) You have to play hold ‘em like Omaha, meaning that two pair is the minimum to win a hand and when there are three suited cards, most of the time your opponent will have a flush.
7) If you are all-in on 4th street or sooner when playing Razz, expect to make pairs or draw face cards.
8) The opposite is true for stud.
9) Suited connectors win more than pocket aces.
10) Expect to be check-raised at least once a hand.
11) Most players play AK suited like they have already made a royal flush, regardless of the cards on the board.
12) When you think to yourself, “They can't possibly have, 4-6, 5-8, etc.,” they do.
13) The German players will keep hitting the raise button like meth addicts. Take their money as you see fit.
14) Most players do not know the definition of a value bet.
15) Nobody folds xxA2 pre-flop in Omaha Hi/Lo
16) If you want to get sucked out on the river every time, play limit hold ‘em.
17) Only play freerolls after you have been drinking, therefore you might find some humor in the play of your opponents and the beats you will take.
18) When playing in a freeroll, time out every third hand just to make things interesting.
19) 20% odds win 80% of the time.
20) After you make a withdrawal of your winnings, expect to go on a losing streak the likes of which you have never seen before.

[Turbo Steve]

I'll continue kdanwills' list. 21) Slow play gets you sucked out every time. 22) In a three handed pot the winning hand is usually the one least likely to win.

[mrkromer]

Those are pretty good, it's like Murphy's Law for FT. But #15 and #16 generally hold true a lot of places because of the nature of limit and hi/lo omaha. Other than that, those bring back a lot of memories!!!

mike

[simo1981]

I agree with mike, playing xxA2 in omaha h/l is not a bad play, you cant get the low nuts without those cards. i play these cards most of the time unless there has been raising and reraising to the limit pre flop

[kdanwill]

Simo1981-you can get the low nuts with xx45 if the board is xxA23 (or any other combination that gives you the wheel). I just put that in the list because you run a serious risk of getting quartered by playing xxA2 on FTP.

[Turbo Steve]

Another classic full rigged tilt gem - I'm not stupid enough to play real money. Although i won this hand the principle is the same and if you play here you'll gt beat like this:
As is the norm on this site i limp along with 86 suited (flush boards are so common unsuited cards are worthless). Both blinds saw the flop but folded before the river making 4 player originaly.
Me: 86c
opponant: 63s
flop: 2d5h4s - bb bets half pot my and op call
turn: 3d - bb checks, i bet half pot, op calls, bb folds
river: 7h - i bet half pot again, op min raises, i reraise again and they call.

Floping the nut strait, as demonstrated by this hand, should be an extreemely stressful time for any FRT player as they are going to get sucked out about 100% of the time to ANYONE drawing to a better hand including the most rediculous runner -runner draws you will ever see.

[joolesnfools2]

whah whah whah....
what a bunch of crybabys, first off if fulltilt is really scamming people people like us we will never know...
it's like those crazies saying 9-11 was an inside job... these are things one will simply never know...
i was reading a comment that really made me laugh, it went something like this, ft is a scam, all the hands are predetermined, flop, turn and river... well duh, it's not like the cards are randomly spinning like a slot machine and then when it comes time, spits out a random card...
comon think about it... when your playing live the dealer shuffles the deck and then cuts it... that's it the deck is now locked in...
there is nothing that can change this...
the flop, turn, and river are still going to be the same...
so the person who is saying that all ft hands are predetermined is just simply agreeing with this example...
it seems to me that people are complaining more about the bad beats, like runner runner bs...
in this case it's more likely that a scam can be involved, if a sim or bot player is seated at a table and needs runner runner to make a winning hand they could "alter" the preset deck to have two rediculous "jacks" pop off the deck, but this theory doesn't hold up one bit, if whatever source that is in control of the hand can see that it's "player" is drawing dead than what's the plan?
i believe the deck is randomly shuffled just like a vegas slot and then is locked,that's it, say no more, whatever happens happens...they cant just plugin sumthin like this "oh this bot player needs all a 4 DIAMOND BOARD,lets just change the predetermined flop turn and river to give him what he needs?" i mean what if those cards are already in play or mucked? don't you think sumone would notice the ten of diamonds they mucked that buried some poor guy on the river, i mean there is a certian amount of outs one has in any given hand... if the program thats ripping people off takes the cards that are left in the deck and rearranges them to benefit one player than so be it...
we will never know...
but seriously all these people ranting and raving about how it's rigged are just looking like a bunch of whiners that don't understand the cosmic tendencies of poker...
but even then we will never know...
all poker sites run off of the same engine you dummies... so if fullilt is scamming people so is pokerstars and bodog, i've had my share of rediculous bad beats that made me wonder... and i'm not saying these sites aren't rigged...
i'm not saying they are...
i particulalrly like ft due to its fast paced action, the action on pokerstars is so slow, i'd rather see 100 bad beat crazy hands in an hour than say 50 boring ace high ones on pokerstars...
i mean comon, how many times have you flopped a nut flush on full tilt? plenty, so stop complaining... or how many times in a tournament have you been dealt a 9 2 offsuit? plenty...
there just bad beats... learn to deal with it, statistics don't mean anything because nothing is set in stone anyway when it comes to how many suited flops should appear and all that mumbo jumbo... hello? that's why we call it poker folks... there's no promises, stupid players are commonly rewarded in this game, ask the pros who play live games, it's no different, a bad beat is a bad beat, no matter where you play what you play or who is "playing" you,learn to deal with it, and move on... geez...people are acting like good cards never get beat by rags...

[joolesnfools2]

oh and one more thing...
the pattern that i can honestly say i find the most interesting, that makes me think the site could possibly be juiced way more than any bad beat... is this... this happens to me all the time i swear...whenever i pull off a really sick bluff...
i'm not talkin one of those semi bluff on a draw shts... like a real sick one... the ones that would got you shot in the wild west days bluff...
ok i'm getting carried away...anywayz after i pull these bluffs off they always shoot me a good hand like jj qq kk aa or ak the very next hand...
granted i don't make sick rediculous stone cold ice bets that often so... everytime i do tho it's like they reward me with kk it's great

[Stormtrooper73]

Hey everyone....listen...I love this forum topic because I agree with what is being said here 100%.
Well....let me start off by saying that I've been playing poker ( live and online ) for about 7 years.
I've played quite a lot here in LA as there are many places to play ( Commerce Casino, The Bicycle Club,etc.) For 7 years, i have dedicated thousands of hours regarding the study of Poker, as I probably have 80% of the all the books ever written on the subject. Usually when I play live ..I play at a nearby casino called The Hawaiian Gardens Casino. Since my work schedule and family obligations keep me busy...I find it easier to play online mostly now. Specifically FT. After playing thousands of hands...you should be able to see distinct patterns of almost predictable rigged poker scenarios. Before I get into why I am certain Full Tilt is ( rigged for action at minimum ) ...I'd like to tell you a story of a friend I have who actually works for Full Tilt.
I'll keep his name anonymous.....but I will tell you he works out of their Ireland base. He's been working for Full Tilt for a few years...and confided to me that Full Tilt is very much a "business" that has a bottom line and profit goals. He didn't go as far as say that every hand was rigged, but the did tell me that ABSOLUTELY...the hands dealt on FT are "NOT" random. In addition he told me that their software program functions differently depending on the "level" in which you were playing. In areas where there is a larger rake being collected ( higher limit games ) there is measurably more randomness in comparison to lower limit games. I interpreted this to mean that the higher limit games ( many in which the pros play and big internet studs play is actually ...the MOST random. He did not refute this, but it seemed evident to me. From playing years in live casinos...I do have to admit that you DO see many bad beats quite often.....but not at the unfathomable frequency you do at Full TIlt. Even if you were to statistically measure the bad beat scenarios and monster vs. monster rigged set-up hnads that are common on the site....the ratio of insane plays,bad beats, miracle 1- outers and odds defying catches are not congruent to being dealt more hands per hour. It almost appears that these scenarios exit the world of exception and become the normal expectancy. This is where you start asking yourself, is the card distribution really random? My gut tells me ....absolutely not..... A long time ago ...my father told me to remember that anything that involves money and profit is corrupted. Full Tilt is no exception.
Now...many of you guys know what I'm talking about...after playing thousands and thousands of hands....a clear pattern and predictability starts to appear in various scenarios, depending on the circumstances. Scenarios I like to call the "Classic FT rigged set-up hand." The funny thing is that if you can readily identify these scenarios, you can actually avoid SOME of them. No really...its sounds crazy folding Jacks or queens...but very often...probably with 50-70% reliability I make the right call to lay them down with minimal info at best.
I'm sure that many of you have seen classic patterns at various stages of the game like for example....there are many predictable occurences when your at the bubble stage of a low limit SNG.
In some later posts, I'll give you my own Top 10 classic rigged set-up hands. I do need to tell you....I currently have close to a 50% ITM....and I have been successful in live games. Online is completely different. Give me your guys input...

[joolesnfools2]

stormtrooper really hit the nail on the head...
he actually made it sound very basic and simple...
i find at higher limits the play def has a more random feel to it... alot of 9 3's and dead flops, much like playing at a live casino...
at the lower limits i'm like a card rack, and when i step up to the higher limits it seems that those sweet hands are very rare, which i don't mind it keeps you sharp...
i also agree about spotting these "trap" hands scenerios, i've played alot of hands on full tilt and i feel i am almost pro at spotting these scenerios, it's always a plus to be and i quote a "scared" player, it's not like i'm scared to play , for example, if i'm dealt kings under the gun and i overbet raise and someone calls me and the flop doesn't look intimidating for kk... say like 5 10 8, now any good player should already be thinking of possible hands that can have him beat, like pocket 5's 10's or 8's or the draw hands like 7 9 or q10... most of the time i'm in the right ballpark at where my hand stands, and i def hit the brakes to see what the other player does... bieng wreckless and firing away at it takes the control completely out of your hands... the one thing in poker you must remember is you can always fold... its the only guarentee...
maybe because i've played so many hands and seen so many "rigged" situations i am able to spot these scenerios and get away from em... stormtrooper really put it into perspective for me...

[SHUTDOWN FULLTILT]

Why is it rigged? What is the motive?

So the majority of players (most are bad) can thrive and be viable/long lasting customers for the fulltilt racket...

Anyone that pulls money out (good players) are viewed as a threat to the fulltilt racket...

The bad beats and the suckouts serve two purposes. To keep the bad players thriving thus maximizing "rake" across the board and to trick the "good" player into depositing more money thinking the 1% probability suckout loss was just a fluke.

This is fact and the most profitable way to run the business. Can they tweak the software? Absolutely.

Profit motive + unregulated environment = Full blown corruption.

[ThankGod4Donks]

Why is it that some people are able to consistently beat this site? Because I run into players at almost every table I play that if you look up their statistics on sharkscope, you will find they have positive ROI's over thousands of tourneys. This is not the majority of the players of course as it is tough to beat the rake, but still they are there on the site having played thousands of games and showing thousands of dollars in profits.

Don't get me wrong; I would never feel safe playing in an online ring game- all it takes is a couple of colluders and you are upside down on your odds to win. But for everyone to suggest that the tourneys are somehow rigged or juiced, I don't see that, and I dont get that. A one table tourney takes about the same amount of time to finish every time, same with multitable tourneys. And to the guy that said the deal is juiced at the freaking free tables, do you even know how stupid that sounds?

I don't notice anything strange with the deals or knockouts that would make me think that the site is trying to speed things up. I do see a lot of dumb play out there, which of course results in a lot of bad beats ( and I have suffered PLENTY), but I recognize this as a good thing.

Look, I believe there have been hacks that have allowed people to cheat (they are updating software frequently I suspect in part to combat this), and there are probably some very sophisticated bots. But if you want to convince me that the deal is skewed on these sites you're going to have to come up with a statistical hand analysis or some real evidence. It should be easy enough to do as there are plenty of hand tracking softwares available. But please, don't give me this "I am a good player but I always lose to Donkeys" stuff because as far as I know, you're not that good.

Well, you crybabies can get to calling me names now, I MUST work for the site!

P.S.- the guy who posted the a-2 crap crap unsuited hand has no idea how to play Omaha Hi Lo

[eldave1]

Okay dokay - done with Full Tilt for me. In t he past when I emailed then regarding the randomness of their card server I got the typical we use RNG, etc. etc. - Okay I said - must be me. However, odd crap just kept happening (inexplicable calls of all ins with unbelievable suckouts as a result, etc.). So - I kept my own stats. After 1000 all in showdowns (not hands - just pure showdowns)

* When I am the favorite I only win 48%
* When I am the dog I lose 79%

Pocket Aces were the worse of all things - they held up 47% (geesh). So - after playing in a SNG where I had aces cracked twice AND - for the entire table the favorite in all in showdowns lost 13 out of 17 times - the last being my KQ of hearts versus 87 off suit (great call of my all in)I once gain emailed Full Tilt. I wanted to know who audited their site to ensure that results were truly random. Their response:

"We are evaluating several well-known auditing firms and hope to have our shuffling and dealing
processes officially audited in the near future."

Bsscially - THEY DON"T HAVE AN INDEPENDENT AUDIT TO CONFIRM THAT THEIR DEALING IS RANDOM! I can see why they wouldn't - it is only the most important issue facing online players. How could they not??? So basically, everything you hear from this is testimonial in nature and not supported by any review.

So - I am done listening to the folks who tell me there is no incentive (there is - rake), that there is no cheating (wait for the next Absolute scam to surface) and that it is just me. I am a college grad (math major) and have been playing B&M mortar poker for 20 years. This site is simply not random. I am done with it.

[Dylan James]

I am 18 years old and have been playing poker since I was 16. In both online and in brick and mortar games. (I know it was illegal for me to do so but even Phil Ivey attained a fake ID for it when he first started playing) I used to think online poker was rigged but as I have grown as a poker player I have changed my mind. I'm not going to say people who think online poker is rigged are idiots I'm just going to say that you should think this through. The reason there are so many seemingly amazing suck outs, inexplicable calls, and pockets Aces getting cracked by 8,9 off is because of the amount of morons that play online. Think about it, in heads up play Aces hold up about 85% of the time. Say you had pockets Aces and you raised from first position and you get 4 callers with garbage hands as is common in most online poker rooms. The larger the room the more common. Anyway, there are 4 callers. That right there makes your Aces only hold up about 56% of the time greatly diminishing their value. Now you've got 4 idiots that can beat you with two pair, straights, sets, or flushes. That's going to happen a lot more often than your Aces holding up against that many cards left in the deck. They have way more outs than you do. The odds are about 11.5 to 1 that you're going to hit an Ace and they have much more outs than you. Now this scenario does not happen to pro poker players playing with pro poker players because pros aren't going to call a raise from first position with shitty cards. If you had one person call your raise that makes your aces much more valuable and the possibility of somebody sucking out is much less. But bad beats happen to pros all the time. Check out he video of Gus Hansen and Daniel Negreanu playing on high stakes poker. But you don't see them playing garbage hands all the time. I guarantee that if a bunch of idiots played with the pros they would be sucking out left and right. Many people on the internet do not understand poker at all and that means that luck plays a much heavier roll. And besides even that most of you don't remember many of your huge pots. You remember your bad beats. It's human nature. Doyle Brunson talked about this I believe. All in all I believe online poker seems rigged because of how many people with garbage stay in the pot no matter what. They're not thinking and therefore it seems that the place is rigged because your good cards get beat by bad cards. Odds only apply when people are actually paying attention to the game. Otherwise, it's just like dice.

[eldave1]

I hope you are right Dylan - but I must say until they get audits of their hand results I will remain skeptical. It is one thing for them to attest that their results are random (anyone can do that). It is another to have it independtly verified. What is troubling is that would be so easy to do - yet they do not do it.

[Dylan James]

That is very true. I forgot to mention that you should definitely be wary of online poker. They are after all a business and I do not trust any businesses at all. And it is interesting that Full Tilt's RNG has never been audited officially. I will just wait and see. I actually don't play at FTP anymore I play at Carbon due to the fact that it has a much lower traffic rate.

[nitemare6]

Dylan James - in the last 4 years and being a strong critic of online RNGs and Full Tilt in particular, your explanation is one of the few reasonable statements that actually makes good sense, and indeed might actually be close to a correct analysis. I however still think that Full Tilt's RNG is skewed and whether this the result of a technical or prgramming flaw or the result of greed remains to be seen ! I personally can no longer trust the site with any significant money and would prefer to get beaten in a live game then always feeling paranoid that Full Rigged Tilt is scamming! It takes the fun out of the game AND I play differently when I am always thinking that my 2p are gonna get sucked out or my TPTK will rarely win.

[SeriouslyAgain?]

I am at witts end with Full Tilt. I cant trust it anymore. I always suspected it was rigged but I'm reasonably ceartain now. I'm not talking about super players or bots, I mean rediculous varience to keep money in the pockets of the fish just as much as the good players. I'm talking about a "random number generator" so good that every 1 stays at about the same amount of money with he obvious benefit to full suck out being more and more rake money. Rake money is why they run the site is it not? and with no one to audit them and the absolute worst customer service I've ever seen. I couldn't even get them to give me a response on 3 tries to match the question I had asked whats gonna stop them. I had my chat removed for "begging for $5" in the $8/$16 razz game I play in. Cmon lets consider the logic here. I have hundreds of dollars infront of me at this table and I'm gonna beg for $5 ya that makes sense well done full tilt. What had really happened is that this guy harrassed me for hours for $5 and I immitated him once and he must have copy and pasted it and sent it to support. So to sum it up I was the one harrassed for hours by a degenerate gambler begging for $5 and as result I get my chat banned for a month and get convicted of something I'm so obviously not guilty of that someone with an IQ of 50 could figure out that it's just not logical. never another red cent thease goofs will ever see