ONLINE POKER - SITE - Full Tilt

[billytk01]

This is in response to mrkromer..... if would of took the time to read back to all the other posts, I am not claiming the site is rigged because of one bad beat, etc.. etc... ect... what I am claiming is that in the beginning early last year when I started playing full tilt's tourneys I was killing it (yes i am a good solid player)... I won the sunday 750k on May 4,08 and placed in top 7 in a about another 5 high payout tourneys.... so basically ran to over 200k in just 4-5 months or so... then I made the mistake of cashing out all my money off of full tilt to buy me and wife cars and down payment on new house... and since ive withdrawn the money I have had nothing but bad beats, horrible suck outs...

also mrkromer... if im up over $200,000 (yes thats two hundred-thousand dollars) how is a $215 buy in way over my head explain that one to me,LMAO..... especially when i play in the $1,000 monday 1k on full tilt and $1,000 super tuesday events on pstars.....

and yes that hand history that i posted, I was dominated pre-flop (big deal) call a $600 raise and now I was dominating post flop, extremely dominating on turn with only 2 outs to lose and boom, the magical 2 outer hits in which I see all the time on full Rigged.. also, your assessment that the flop was fucked up but the river corrected what was wrong, if this is your logic in how you view poker then maybe you shouldnt be posting at all... pre-flop i was dog at 18% - 80%, flop I was 87% - 12% favorite, turn I am 95% - 5% dominating favorite... and you know the rest... the sites a joke, ever since i have withdrawn my money off of the site I had nothing but bad beats.. I have yet to get knocked out of full tilt tourney without having the best hand post or pre-flop, its awlays a bad beat suck out.....

feel free to check my 2008 stats on officialpokerrankings.com billytk01

[eldave1]

You can easily get Billy's payouts on the official poker ranking site and what he is saying is true. He did win that much.

In terms of the pre-flop - post flop arguement - he is correct also. It is what the odds were at the time all the money went in (Christ - that is pretty basic or we would just call this Texas Pocket Cards). If an ace hits the flop with no Jack - Billy goes away quietly and says - damn - bad flop. What hit was the J. It put him in the position of being all in and he was - AT THAT TIME - facing a player that was down to two outs.
That was the point of the post. On FT - you constantly get into positions where you are a dominant fav - you act accordingly - then you get punished.

I have had the cash out curse experience as well (although for only a meager $4K). For two years I was in the 95 percenttile of players. After I cashed - I am in the 60 percentile. I did not get bad all of a sudden nor did I experience the same decline in live games. Anyway - that is Billy's point. You cash - you lose.

[roadrunnerr2]

I've been playing Full Tilt for a while and have done alright despite dealing with the horrible play and ridiculous suck-outs. I have to play tighter than I'd like, but my big hands usually get paid off. Sure, hands don't hold up like they should, but I've learned to accept that as the trade-off of getting action when I have the nuts. Tonight may have made me change my mind for good.

I've played 8 SNG's today and have been knocked out by 2 4-outers, 2 3-outers, and 2 2-outers. I got crippled in another tourney after hitting TPTK and running into quads. I'm still alive in the last one only because my AA miraculously held up against A7o. All of the suck-outs came after the flop too, so my odds were even better. I can take a little back luck, and I don't normally whine about bad beats, but what happened to me is beyond ridiculous! I found this site because I really needed a place to vent. Here's a sampling of what I'm talking about. I seriously done with Full Tilt and their bullshit.

NAFAI1 posts the small blind of 20
DETAILINGDAN posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [7h 7d]
Billyhitch folds
SuperBad3 folds
threerivers7 folds
ptloser folds
varsity2x raises to 120
Roadrunnerr2 calls 120
HQQKEM_HQRNS folds
NAFAI1 calls 100
DETAILINGDAN calls 80
*** FLOP *** [Td 7c Ts]
NAFAI1 checks
DETAILINGDAN checks
varsity2x bets 200
Roadrunnerr2 calls 200
NAFAI1 calls 200
DETAILINGDAN raises to 400
varsity2x folds
Roadrunnerr2 calls 200
NAFAI1 calls 200
*** TURN *** [Td 7c Ts] [Kd]
NAFAI1 checks
DETAILINGDAN bets 800
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 935, and is all in
NAFAI1 folds
DETAILINGDAN calls 135
Roadrunnerr2 shows [7h 7d]
DETAILINGDAN shows [Qs Tc]
*** RIVER *** [Td 7c Ts Kd] [Qd]
Roadrunnerr2 shows a full house, Sevens full of Tens
DETAILINGDAN shows a full house, Tens full of Queens
DETAILINGDAN wins the pot (3,750) with a full house, Tens full of Queens
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,750 | Rake 0
Board: [Td 7c Ts Kd Qd]
Seat 1: threerivers7 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: ptloser didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: varsity2x folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Roadrunnerr2 showed [7h 7d] and lost with a full house, Sevens full of Tens
Seat 5: HQQKEM_HQRNS (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: NAFAI1 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 7: DETAILINGDAN (big blind) showed [Qs Tc] and won (3,750) with a full house, Tens full of Queens
Seat 8: Billyhitch didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: SuperBad3 didn't bet (folded)


Full Tilt Poker Game #10424067077: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (78804467), Table 1 - 120/240 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:27:16 ET - 2009/02/04
Seat 2: mordish (2,915)
Seat 3: Wesito76 (1,720)
Seat 5: joewardo (4,455)
Seat 8: Roadrunnerr2 (4,410)
mordish posts the small blind of 120
Wesito76 posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [Kh Ac]
joewardo raises to 840
Roadrunnerr2 has 15 seconds left to act
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 2,400
mordish folds
Wesito76 folds
joewardo calls 1,560
*** FLOP *** [Ah 4h 8h]
joewardo has 15 seconds left to act
joewardo checks
Roadrunnerr2 bets 2,010, and is all in
joewardo calls 2,010
Roadrunnerr2 shows [Kh Ac]
joewardo shows [As Js]
*** TURN *** [Ah 4h 8h] [Jc]
*** RIVER *** [Ah 4h 8h Jc] [3s]
Roadrunnerr2 shows a pair of Aces
joewardo shows two pair, Aces and Jacks
joewardo wins the pot (9,180) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9,180 | Rake 0
Board: [Ah 4h 8h Jc 3s]
Seat 2: mordish (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: Wesito76 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: joewardo showed [As Js] and won (9,180) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 8: Roadrunnerr2 (button) showed [Kh Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces


Full Tilt Poker Game #10423248007: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (78801593), Table 1 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:27:15 ET - 2009/02/04
Seat 2: VMAT2 (1,790)
Seat 3: Orlegard (1,322)
Seat 4: Jon2111 (3,475)
Seat 5: yanknpull (1,323)
Seat 6: grey goose man (2,975)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 (1,290)
Seat 8: Grubasek88 (1,325)
VMAT2 posts the small blind of 25
Orlegard posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [Qh Qd]
Jon2111 has 15 seconds left to act
Jon2111 calls 50
yanknpull folds
grey goose man folds
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 150
Grubasek88 folds
VMAT2 folds
Orlegard calls 100
Jon2111 calls 100
*** FLOP *** [4h 5h Jd]
Orlegard checks
Jon2111 bets 3,325, and is all in
Roadrunnerr2 calls 1,140, and is all in
Orlegard folds
Jon2111 shows [Qc Jc]
Roadrunnerr2 shows [Qh Qd]
Uncalled bet of 2,185 returned to Jon2111
*** TURN *** [4h 5h Jd] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [4h 5h Jd 7c] [Js]
Jon2111 shows three of a kind, Jacks
Roadrunnerr2 shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
Jon2111 wins the pot (2,755) with three of a kind, Jacks
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,755 | Rake 0
Board: [4h 5h Jd 7c Js]
Seat 2: VMAT2 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: Orlegard (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Jon2111 showed [Qc Jc] and won (2,755) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 5: yanknpull didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: grey goose man didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 showed [Qh Qd] and lost with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 8: Grubasek88 (button) didn't bet (folded)

[billytk01]

What happened to roadrunnerr2 is sickening but alas its just another example of the much rigged bs that goes on full tilt....

I have yet to be knocked out of any tourney on full tilt where I didnt have the best hand going in pre or post flop.... (except for the occasional all-in draw, etc...) but its so hilarious that the majority of the time no matter what the bigger stacks are holding they almost always suck out no matter how far behind they are. I guess this is why that full tilts tourneys always start and end at about the same time week in and week out (which is kind of amazing in its own right)...

[mrkromer]

Well, I agree with the odds when the majority of the money went in, no arguments there of course. And of course I agree that it's a bad beat. And I am surprised that you have actually won that much, but congrats on that too, my bad. But the part that still doesn't make sense to me is that you posted on here about a bad beat when you know that they happen all the time. You're obviously a solid enough player to still be way up; maybe over the course of the time since you cashed you've gotten looser? I don't know for sure, but I do know that this is the problem that a lot of players, good and bad, face.

mike

[eldave1]

I don't think that is the problem. The hand below is typical - had JJ - make preflop raise (4BB) - get called by 2, 3 offsuit and a KJ. Had I lost to the KJ - okay that is a bad beat. The fact that the 2-3 offsuit friggin called in the first place and won is what has been the pattern I experienced after cashing vs. before cashing. So -to me - that is the issue. I saw one pretty straightforward card pattern and play pattern before cashing out and a whole different one after cashing out. Before, I could see why they called (short stacked, pocket pair, etc. etc) and even though I was the favorite, I understood.

Now I am losing hands that are simply unavoidable (I have QQ - flop is Q 3 10 - I shove - get called by A 5 and of course the turn is a K and the river is a J - I go out on bubble again). That is the part that has most of us on Full Tilt - pun intended. We are used to bad beats - we are not used to what we are seeing after we cashed. I'm done with it.



Full Tilt Poker Game #9072889341: $8 + $0.80 Tournament (69418097), Table 5 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:06:50 ET - 2008/11/20
Seat 1: eldave1 (6,427)
Seat 2: hauten (2,410)
Seat 3: RobAbdr (2,028)
Seat 4: x4x-raik-x7x (725)
Seat 5: sfaktis (3,370)
Seat 6: samson67 (1,220), is sitting out
Seat 7: l--lroml--l (1,400)
Seat 8: lazarus714 (4,650)
Seat 9: twalman (2,945)
l--lroml--l posts the small blind of 25
lazarus714 posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Jh Js]
twalman folds
eldave1 raises to 175
hauten has 15 seconds left to act
hauten folds
RobAbdr folds
x4x-raik-x7x folds
sfaktis calls 175
samson67 folds
l--lroml--l calls 150
lazarus714 calls 125
*** FLOP *** [4s 2h 5c]
l--lroml--l has 15 seconds left to act
l--lroml--l bets 1,225, and is all in
lazarus714 folds
eldave1 calls 1,225
sfaktis calls 1,225
*** TURN *** [4s 2h 5c] [2d]
eldave1 bets 5,027, and is all in
sfaktis calls 1,970, and is all in
eldave1 shows [Jh Js]
sfaktis shows [2s 3h]
l--lroml--l shows [Ks Jd]
Uncalled bet of 3,057 returned to eldave1
*** RIVER *** [4s 2h 5c 2d] [8c]
eldave1 shows two pair, Jacks and Twos
sfaktis shows three of a kind, Twos
sfaktis wins the side pot (3,940) with three of a kind, Twos
l--lroml--l shows a pair of Twos
sfaktis wins the main pot (4,375) with three of a kind, Twos
l--lroml--l stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8,315 Main pot 4,375. Side pot 3,940. | Rake 0
Board: [4s 2h 5c 2d 8c]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Jh Js] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Twos
Seat 2: hauten didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: RobAbdr didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: x4x-raik-x7x didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: sfaktis showed [2s 3h] and won (8,315) with three of a kind, Twos
Seat 6: samson67 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: l--lroml--l (small blind) showed [Ks Jd] and lost with a pair of Twos
Seat 8: lazarus714 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: twalman didn't bet (folded)

[billytk01]

eldave... well said my friend, i couldnt agree more.......

to mrkromer.... yes i agree that some players get looser as their bankrolls get bigger, but I believe those are the players that I believe that lucked into the money to begin with and have no real skill in playing poker...

I dont change my approach or style of play in any tournament I enter regardless of bankroll, etc.... I play a solid, passive aggressive style, while minimizing unnecessarry risks in regards to bluffing, etc... its what good players, do.. they stay the with what works and what works for me is what i stated earlier...

now in regards to bad beats.... yes, i know that happens live or online, that is a fact... but... the bad beats and crazy suck outs have come far more too often and in the most peculiar situations ever since I had cashed out my bankroll on full tilt...

I guess the bottom line is that you really wont understand the patterns of the beats and suck outs until you hit a big score then cash out and attempt to play again.... I guess thats pretty much the only way to experience and understand what we are trying to convey....

the only thing im regretting is I wish I kept a record of hand history of every last hand that I busted out on in a tourney so you can see the ridiculous beats I take to get knocked constantly.....

[mrkromer]

I guess so. The other thing I was thinking about was this: Did the site traffic increase significantly compared to when you won most of your 200k vs. after you cashed? Maybe a lot more average to bad players joined the site, just thinking out loud.

For me, the only big cashes I've had were on Stars, 1 sng for $1080 and 1 MTT for about $2200. But I don't play enough to notice a real strong pattern of the after the cash out curse. Of course, these wins happened in April 05 and September 07, so it's been awhile. good discussion though.

mike

[eldave1]

I have heard the larger number of hands, the more players arguement and have never been convinced. If there are 100,000 players on the site versus a 100, the odds should not change (i.e., AA should beat 55 80% of the time regardless).

To Billy: - if you do start collecting hand stats be careful in the analysis. For example, I have won KK 74% of the time overall including where there was no call of my raise. HOWEVER, only 43% of the time when facing an all in showdown (and yes - most of those times I was the predominant
preflop favorite). So - to really see the rigging, you need to look at all in showdowns and especially focus on hands where at least half your stack is at stake. The second thing I examined in "all in showdowns" was whether or not I was the favorite at the time all the chips went in. 84% of the time I was the fav - I won 48% of those. In the 16% of the times I was the dog - I lost 90% of the time. What it told me was it did not matter if I played tight or loose - either way I was going to lose. And again - many of those favs that lose are to inexplicable calls (the last tourney I played I had K10 in the BB - flop is 10h-10d-2c - rainbow. I shove knowing you cannot slowplay this site and get called by 8c 7c - turn is 5c, river Ac, - I lose and am out on the bubble again.

You can get Poker Tracker free for 90 days - it is neat in that it will replay your hands.

Last note - several months ago I had a computer hard drive failure and I emailed Full Tilt asking for all my hands from 2008 - they would not send them because in their words - teh volume was too big. I think BS.

Anyway. GL

[eldave1]

I promised I wouldn't play on this crock of a site again and I broke my promise. I was playing two MTTs - within a 2 hand period I get AA on one of the MTTs, raise prefllop, get called and beaten by QJ. On the other MTT I get AA, raise prefllop, get called and beaten by QJ. In two tourneys at the same time I get jammed with this crap. I blame myself as I said I would give it up. I can't wait for the day this shit is exposed.

================================================== =
Full Tilt Poker Game #10469384174: $27,500 Guarantee (78986222), Table 54 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:05:46 ET - 2009/02/06
Tooms85 sits down
Tooms85 adds 3,000
Seat 1: bObO6174 (2,990)
Seat 2: eldave1 (2,885)
Seat 3: hochhaus1 (2,970)
Seat 4: Krazee2 (2,905)
Seat 5: Mackey_Vandrell (2,945)
Seat 6: patandur (3,000)
Seat 7: daniel131113 (6,255)
Seat 9: The Russller (3,050)
Mackey_Vandrell posts the small blind of 10
patandur posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ac Ah]
daniel131113 calls 20
The Russller folds
bObO6174 folds
eldave1 raises to 200
hochhaus1 folds
Krazee2 folds
Mackey_Vandrell has 15 seconds left to act
Mackey_Vandrell folds
patandur calls 180
daniel131113 calls 180
*** FLOP *** [4s Qh 8s]
patandur bets 2,800, and is all in
daniel131113 raises to 5,600
eldave1 calls 2,685, and is all in
daniel131113 shows [Js Qs]
eldave1 shows [Ac Ah]
patandur shows [Kh Qd]
Uncalled bet of 2,800 returned to daniel131113
*** TURN *** [4s Qh 8s] [9s]
*** RIVER *** [4s Qh 8s 9s] [7d]
daniel131113 shows a flush, Queen high
patandur shows a pair of Queens
daniel131113 wins the side pot (230) with a flush, Queen high
eldave1 shows a pair of Aces
daniel131113 wins the main pot (8,665) with a flush, Queen high
eldave1 stands up
patandur stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8,895 Main pot 8,665. Side pot 230. | Rake 0
Board: [4s Qh 8s 9s 7d]
Seat 1: bObO6174 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: eldave1 showed [Ac Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: hochhaus1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Krazee2 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Mackey_Vandrell (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: patandur (big blind) showed [Kh Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: daniel131113 showed [Js Qs] and won (8,895) with a flush, Queen high
Seat 9: The Russller didn't bet (folded)

================================================== ===
Full Tilt Poker Game #10469503357: $5,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (78977976), Table 47 - 120/240 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:13:38 ET - 2009/02/06
Seat 1: eldave1 (10,590)
Seat 2: sabbeth4578 (17,760)
Seat 3: BigBang96 (15,295)
Seat 4: KTM_JAY (9,267)
Seat 5: Fishing John (14,560)
Seat 6: SRAC (1,975)
Seat 7: dr_milo (25,785)
Seat 8: Phaydn (23,070)
Seat 9: SCOOP00 (12,600)
eldave1 antes 25
sabbeth4578 antes 25
BigBang96 antes 25
KTM_JAY antes 25
Fishing John antes 25
SRAC antes 25
dr_milo antes 25
Phaydn antes 25
SCOOP00 antes 25
KTM_JAY posts the small blind of 120
Fishing John posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ad As]
SRAC folds
dr_milo folds
Phaydn folds
SCOOP00 calls 240
eldave1 raises to 720
sabbeth4578 has 15 seconds left to act
sabbeth4578 folds
BigBang96 folds
KTM_JAY folds
Fishing John calls 480
SCOOP00 calls 480
*** FLOP *** [Jc Qd 3s]
Fishing John checks
SCOOP00 checks
eldave1 bets 2,505
Fishing John raises to 5,010
SCOOP00 folds
eldave1 raises to 9,845, and is all in
Fishing John calls 4,835
eldave1 shows [Ad As]
Fishing John shows [Js Qc]
*** TURN *** [Jc Qd 3s] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [Jc Qd 3s 8c] [6s]
eldave1 shows a pair of Aces
Fishing John shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
Fishing John wins the pot (22,195) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22,195 | Rake 0
Board: [Jc Qd 3s 8c 6s]
Seat 1: eldave1 showed [Ad As] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: sabbeth4578 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: BigBang96 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: KTM_JAY (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Fishing John (big blind) showed [Js Qc] and won (22,195) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 6: SRAC folded before the Flop
Seat 7: dr_milo folded before the Flop
Seat 8: Phaydn folded before the Flop
Seat 9: SCOOP00 folded on the Flop

[carlinho]

Rigged. I`m a winning multitabling sng (10 $ -50 $)player for about 3 Years. and I do a lot of deposits an cashouts on many sites. What I`ve experienced on Stars and espacially on FT is a deposit reward and a cashout curse. Always the same patterns. I get a ridicoulous great run when i place some money there but after a while my hands get busted in a absolute unreal way. It seems that FT tries to figure out if you`re skilled or donkish player in order to protect the bad players in the lower levels who are the fundament in this huge poker pyramide. I´ve experienced that several times on FT and Stars in contrary to other networks like Ongame and I-poker. For example last year I´ve deposited at Stars and instanly i`ve managed to achieve the 2nd place in their weekly "Battle of the planets" which was followed by a horrible downswing. This is just an example. I`ve experienced that many times . I`m using the Poker Tracker Addon "Tourney Luck" for a while now and the outcome is exactly what i just felt before. I guess My Samplesize off all in situations is not big enough yet (3000 All ins) but i`ts just absurd how the Allin-luck (not the skills or style) turns around when changing the platform.

[eldave1]

And to boot - just check the rankings of those who knock you out they are the worst - - my last three tourneys I was knocked oot by a 5.6% ranking, a 4% and a 9% - I'm only a 70% now - of course I was 96% before I cashed out

[billytk01]

all you have to do is watch the final 2 tables of full tilts sunday 750k and pstars 1.5 mil guarantee and see all the horrid play.... you would figure that if a player can navigate their way through 3,000 to 8,000 players to the final 20 players of the tourney at the very least 15 players or so would have some decent skill.. instead its donkeys calling off chips with Axxx on any all in, etc.... these final tables are hilarious.. also eldave1 is right.. if you look at these final table player ratings they all are negative roi's etc.... its horrid....

heres something that always happens in the ring games.... did you ever notice that if you or another player goes all in for the first time in a cash NL or cash limit session that you/they win 95% of the time... this only works on the first all in of a cash/ring game session.... I like to call it the "all-in" rule....

[nitemare6]

billytk01


unfkingreal... yoi DID win 132K in a tournament on full rigged tilt. So, is it doable for a regular guy to win some huge money online on FTP withut a rigged game??! I am tempted to start playing again, only in tournies this time , based upon reading your stats.

Thanks for sharing the info.

b.t.w how can you say it is rigged when you won a horrendous amount of money by anyone's standard???!!!

(interestingly I played a game on one table last night for a few hours and ran my buy-in up 4xs. Almost made me FTP born-again. But not quite! night

[billytk01]

to nitemare6....... the reason i say full tilt is rigged even though i won all that money is cuz when i cashed out all the money i won I couldnt win anything after that... nothing but bad beat after bad beat... also if you are short stacked in any tourney you might as well just quit the game cuz full tilt favors the big stacks so much so its ridiculous... and if your short stacked they set up the most ridiculous hands to knock you out... heres an example from full tilts 1.5 million guarantee that i just played tonight and just got knocked out (unfortunately I didnt have the save hand history option checked so I will just post it verbally...) this is an obvious set up if i ever did see one...

the blinds were 250/500 w/ 50 ante.... i was in the small blind with 2,300 chips and the big blind had about 51,000 chips... the hands got dealt and the table all folded to me in the small blind.. I looked down at 9c 4d... so i just called the big blind for another 250 leaving me with 2,050 chips... the big blind checked... the flop came 10s 8s 7s (all spades).. I checked and the BB checked.. the turn brings an amazing 6h giving me a straight... I pushed in and was immediatley called by the BB, he turned over AcAs (4 spades to a flush) and what comes magically on the river.. you guessed it, a 5s giving the bb a flush... that is a complete joke..

Whats amazing is that if the big blind bets on the flop I go away quietly waiting to pick another spot to push, but alas no... the big blind checks and full tilt ensures that i will be in the pot by giving me the straight and then setting up the knock out punch on the river... whats even more funny is when this hand was happening, my wife was watching and i told her exactly what was going to happen and it did.. she was impressed and now understands why i complain and bitch so much when i get bounced out of every one of these rigged tourneys


this is just another example of the completely ridiculous beats, hand set ups.... its a joke and its so f'in predictable...

this hand history is not just another bad beat, hand set up rant.... this is just another example of the garbage that constantly happens in every damn tourney on full tilt...

ps... i finished 1495 out of 5325

[nitemare6]

Hey I am the original "rigged" theorist.

Take a look at "Big Huni". This guy must be the luckiest guy in the world or a great player at age 24. Look at all his cashes in tournies on FTP and elsewhere. So it seems some guys are making some dough online.

If I made 200K playing fking poker I would never say it was rigged again.

So since it is rigged how the heck did you manage to cash for 132K? Was it really just random luck and some good suckouts.... or great play?

Hard to believe that great play alone can win a tournament on FTP.

[jaywepp]

I think the point he's trying to make chief is that once you cash out, even if you're a pro... you can't win.

He's showing you that he was good enough on an initial deposit to win lots of cash... so it's pretty silly to belive the guy couldn't win a game or cash even from that point out.

Hey my biggest accomplishment was turning 50 into more then 1K.. but everytime i've cashed out, I can't win. So much so that i've documented it on here.

[billytk01]

to jaywepp... yes that is the point i am making, you cash out your screwed (the length of the cash out curse is unknown)

to nitemare6... I like to think im a good poker player. Im pretty successful in live cash and tourney play. I just play solid starting hands, minimize unnecessary bluffs/risks, and sometimes I like to pick spots and call some raises with suited connectors and such... and most of all i watch and study my opponants tendanciess.. anyway, when i won and placed high in the cash in a few of the FTP tournies all i did was play solid poker, nothing special. Believe it or not when I won the ftp Sunday 750k I was all-in only once and that was at the final table with 3 players left. I only knocked out i believe about 8 players during that tourney as well. Actually, I never did have a huge suck out.. I think I went in to some pots being a slight dog but never totally dominated... What is funny is that when I won the ftp Sunday 750k and finished 4th in the FTP Monday 1k is that in both tourneys I was the bubble boy with the lowest stack in making the money, seriously... so i made both runs basically starting from last in chips when the money was made...

my total run on full tilt was from April, 08 - June, 08... it was during those 3 months when i was hitting all the major money..

Check this- during those 3 months I made the final table of the Sunday 750k 3 times (finishing 1st, 7th-out on a suck out/bad beat and 9th on a suck out bad beat) ** the 9th place finish was never reported to card player or opr cuz for some reason the tourney was considered unfinished or something. this is what cardplayer told me when i inquired why my stats werent posted. I also finished 19th in another sunday 750k.. but like i said, after i cashed out i could not win a hand and every hand seemed like a setup and it usually was...

but to answer your question nitemare6.... I honestly believe you have to have more luck than skill to win a tourney online whereas in live more skill than luck is usually the determining factor.. To prove my point about more luck than skill to win a tourney online all you have to do is watch the final couple tables of the full tilt or poker stars tourneys and see all the horrid play.. people calling allins with any Ax, etc... its comical to watch the final tables...

[eldave1]

And if you really want to drive yourself nutty - keep track of all hands where you lose it all or at least 2/3rds of your stack (i.e., the crippling hands) - that as where you will find that the odds go out the window. e.g., I win KK 67.35% of the time when all hands are counted. Hoowever, when it is for an all in - my tourney life at stake = I win less then 40% In addition, I come up against AA far more than expected. The odds of AA and KK being on the same table are 4.39% - However, in all in showdowns - I have run across AA four times (20%) of that amount. Keep track of how many times when facing all ins you:

a) win when you are a fav
b) win when you are a dog

If you experience is like mine - you will find that you win as a fav (again - this is just for showdowns) - 50% or less and you win as a dog 20% or less. You would be happy if these were 50-50 since at least the cards were going both ways - but they don't.

Anyway - I ignore everything statistically other that where was I in the hand (fav or dog and by how much) when all the chips went in - and - the numbers do not ring true.

[billytk01]

Jesus Christ... this site is so sickening.... horrid play constantly rewarded time after time... Its impossible to ever know if you the best hand or even a strong hand cuz the suck outs are unreal.. 1,2,3 outers constantly hit.. its ungodly sickening...

I just finished playing a satellite to the 1.5 million second chance tourney on Full tilt.. it was a 216 buyin... and another sickening beat again to get booted... Are any hands even remotely safe?????? its ungodly sickening....

Full Tilt Poker Game #10533880715: Satellite to FTOPS Event #12 (79104849), Table 20 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:32:15 ET - 2009/02/09
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (1,880)
Seat 2: martytadman (3,255)
Seat 3: SorenKongsgaard (3,015)
Seat 4: billytk01 (2,535)
Seat 6: PokerTul (2,000)
Seat 7: fabregarp (1,620)
Seat 8: JoeSkeeter (1,640)
Seat 9: FR8DOGNV (1,020)
Dave Colclough posts the small blind of 30
martytadman posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billytk01 [Ks Qh]
SorenKongsgaard folds
billytk01 raises to 180
PokerTul folds
fabregarp folds
JoeSkeeter folds
FR8DOGNV folds
Dave Colclough folds
martytadman has 15 seconds left to act
martytadman calls 120
*** FLOP *** [Kc Qd 3d]
martytadman checks
bdubs3737 sits down
bdubs3737 adds 1,170
billytk01 bets 300
martytadman calls 300
*** TURN *** [Kc Qd 3d] [6s]
martytadman checks
billytk01 bets 2,055, and is all in
martytadman calls 2,055
billytk01 shows [Ks Qh]
martytadman shows [6d 6h]
*** RIVER *** [Kc Qd 3d 6s] [9s]
billytk01 shows two pair, Kings and Queens
martytadman shows three of a kind, Sixes
martytadman wins the pot (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes
billytk01 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,100 | Rake 0
Board: [Kc Qd 3d 6s 9s]
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: martytadman (big blind) showed [6d 6h] and won (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 3: SorenKongsgaard didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: billytk01 showed [Ks Qh] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 6: PokerTul didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: fabregarp didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: JoeSkeeter didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: FR8DOGNV (button) didn't bet (folded)


God this site is such a joke..... its amazing how often Full Tilt rewards bad players and bad plays.... how did this guy even call a $300 bet into a $390 pot with two over cards on board, absolutely no draws (only 2 outs to catch) and not much money invested in pot... I'll tell you why he calls! He calls cuz he is bad player, has absolutely no idea of what he is doing and is probably the beneficiary of many prior suck outs compliment of full tilt... such a joke...

all i can say is horrid play, horrid play, horrid play and full tilts rigged software...........

[roadrunnerr2]

I've never thought about it before, but the sick run of bad beats against me didn't start until I made a withdrawal. It didn't cross my mind because I don't play big stakes and I only took out a couple of thousand. Would they really flip the doomswitch on anybody who has the nerve to make money on their site?! Apparently, they must be catering to the same crowd that spends half their paychecks on lottery tickets. "Come play our site...no skill required".

[jaywepp]

You thought you were playing low stakes and took out a little.... I usually only put 50 bucks in to start, which may be stupid since it means I have to double up to even cash out.. but i digress....

My best run ever was when I built 50 to over 1000... I cashed some out and couldn't win. Did the same when i'd win a couple hundred leaving some to play and the curse would hit every time.

I just cashed out 800 after winning a desperation 200 buy in game... I had 900 and couldn't win or get in the money to save my life.. so figured it was time to leave.

Gonna take a break and see if i can start getting cards again after i get that check.

[roadrunnerr2]

I'm done with Full Tilt, for good this time. This hand is the one that broke my back....absolutely horrible play rewarded with a ridiculous suck-out.

Full Tilt Poker Game #10593055796: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (79923672), Table 1 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:33:08 ET - 2009/02/12
Seat 1: pacatoo (1,425)
Seat 2: OZMANFL (2,085)
Seat 3: mcdougal60 (1,900)
Seat 4: vdog11 (1,525)
Seat 5: Goldmine1 (1,050)
Seat 6: TheEnterTrainer (1,450)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 (1,460)
Seat 8: rallaff (1,165), is sitting out
Seat 9: DaIceCreamMan (1,440)
OZMANFL posts the small blind of 20
mcdougal60 posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roadrunnerr2 [Kc Kd]
vdog11 folds
Goldmine1 folds
TheEnterTrainer folds
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 120
rallaff folds
DaIceCreamMan folds
pacatoo folds
OZMANFL calls 100
mcdougal60 calls 80
*** FLOP *** [7d 2d Qs]
OZMANFL bets 40
mcdougal60 folds
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 360
OZMANFL has 15 seconds left to act
OZMANFL calls 320
*** TURN *** [7d 2d Qs] [8h]
OZMANFL bets 40
Roadrunnerr2 raises to 980, and is all in
OZMANFL has 15 seconds left to act
OZMANFL calls 940
Roadrunnerr2 shows [Kc Kd]
OZMANFL shows [As 2h]
*** RIVER *** [7d 2d Qs 8h] [Ah]
Roadrunnerr2 shows a pair of Kings
OZMANFL shows two pair, Aces and Twos
OZMANFL wins the pot (3,040) with two pair, Aces and Twos
Roadrunnerr2 stands up
The blinds are now 25/50
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,040 | Rake 0
Board: [7d 2d Qs 8h Ah]
Seat 1: pacatoo (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: OZMANFL (small blind) showed [As 2h] and won (3,040) with two pair, Aces and Twos
Seat 3: mcdougal60 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: vdog11 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Goldmine1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: TheEnterTrainer didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Roadrunnerr2 showed [Kc Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: rallaff didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: DaIceCreamMan didn't bet (folded)

[billytk01]

to roadrunnerr2..... that is some sick ass play on full tilt. this is exactly my point about the site being rigged.. and the rigging im talking about is called leverage. These online sites purposely build in these suckouts for the horrid players, this enables all the fish and bad players which make up most of the site traffic to continue playing on these sickening sites....

Unfortuneatly, the only solution to this problem is to hopefully have the US finally approve online poker in the states and to have a US licensed gaming commision monitor the play.. until then its all luck and no skill on these sites....

[nitemare6]

Roadrunner

I have posted a lot about FTP being rigged. But your example isn't what I would consider rigged. You could easily see an A on the river in a live game anywhere. The only thing that is suspect is why the A2 called you bets. Now THAT is suspicious. But an ace suckout on the river isn't the kind of rigged dealing that I have used as examples.

[billytk01]

to nitemar6... I agree that 1 and 2 and 3 outers on the river happen but the point of the post is that these type of beats happen all the time... bad players are constantly rewarded, no hand is safe....

[billytk01]

OMG..... OMG...... OMG..... this shit is fin hilarious.... it never ends........ full tilt is such a full fuckin joke......

Full Tilt Poker Game #10652549978: FTOPS Main Event (73899945), Table 459 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:39:44 ET - 2009/02/15
Seat 1: Poker_Freddy_1 (7,840)
Seat 2: o LIMIT 45 o (6,780)
Seat 3: kasino31 (7,335)
Seat 4: billytk01 (5,150)
Seat 5: scrapper41 (7,249)
Seat 6: SuckaFish1 (6,575)
Seat 7: Ahvall (20,221)
Seat 8: EerWotBlud (10,195)
Seat 9: bigpapi1010 (8,776)
bigpapi1010 posts the small blind of 25
Poker_Freddy_1 posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billytk01 [Ks 9s]
o LIMIT 45 o folds
kasino31 folds
billytk01 calls 50
scrapper41 raises to 200
SuckaFish1 folds
Ahvall folds
EerWotBlud folds
bigpapi1010 calls 175
Poker_Freddy_1 folds
billytk01 calls 150
*** FLOP *** [8s 2s Js]
bigpapi1010 checks
billytk01 checks
scrapper41 bets 600
bigpapi1010 has 15 seconds left to act
bigpapi1010 calls 600
billytk01 calls 600
*** TURN *** [8s 2s Js] [3h]
bigpapi1010 has 15 seconds left to act
bigpapi1010 bets 1,400
billytk01 calls 1,400
scrapper41 folds
*** RIVER *** [8s 2s Js 3h] [4h]
bigpapi1010 has 15 seconds left to act
bigpapi1010 bets 2,950
billytk01 calls 2,950, and is all in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bigpapi1010 shows [Ts As] a flush, Ace high
billytk01 mucks
bigpapi1010 wins the pot (11,150) with a flush, Ace high
billytk01 stands up
Poker_Freddy_1 stands up
o LIMIT 45 o stands up
kasino31 stands up
scrapper41 stands up
SuckaFish1 stands up
Ahvall stands up
EerWotBlud stands up
bigpapi1010 stands up
billytk01 (Observer): rigged
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11,150 | Rake 0
Board: [8s 2s Js 3h 4h]
Seat 1: Poker_Freddy_1 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: o LIMIT 45 o didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: kasino31 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: billytk01 mucked [Ks 9s] - a flush, King high
Seat 5: scrapper41 folded on the Turn
Seat 6: SuckaFish1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Ahvall didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: EerWotBlud (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: bigpapi1010 (small blind) showed [Ts As] and won (11,150) with a flush, Ace high

Its amazing that I never get knocked out of these full tilt tournament with a marginal hand, or bad call.... Im always knocked out of these Full Rigged tourneys with huge made hands only to lose to ungodly bigger hands on a consistant basis. its the only way full tilt can knock out good players and give the fish a chance... what an fin joke.... these hands are all set up bull shit....

[eldave1]

They don't even attempt to disguise it anymore. You can literally call out the hands (especially the "runner runners") before anything hits the board. Here it comes - runner - runner - I lose my flopped set to seven high straight.

Here are other certainties:

* If you flop a monster and slow play it - you will lose - guarenteed - by some ridiculous turn river scenario.

* If you flop a monster and bet it big - you will
lose by some ridiculous turn river scenario.

* If you have KK, they have AA.

* If you have AA, they have an underpair and will hit a set.

HERE IS THE BIGGEST CERTAINITY - THE BAD PLAY IS ALMOST ALWAYS REWARDED!!!!!!

If the have 10 - 10 and the flop is A K 2 and you have AK and shove - the third ten hits the turn almost in sync with their bad call. This happens over and over and foking over again on this site - there absolutely is no punishment for bad play.

I have no foking idea how to play on-line poker anymore - seriously - do I fold aces - not bet AK, fold all pairs - WHAT????

If I bet and someone makes a stupid call ("yeah I know I only had 9-2 but they were suited and you only bet ten times the BB") I will lose - ALL STUPID CALLS ARE PAID OFF.

I can honestyl say I have no idea how to play this anymore - what a joke

[billytk01]

The previous tourney that I just posted (losing k high flugh to A "nut" flush) happened in the ftops main event... I pd $500 to get into that garbage bs... and that also makes me wonder who in their right mind would put up $2,500 to $5,000 to play in a rigged online tourney... its an fin joke...


to eldave... its amazing that you post those remarks cuz I witness the exact same scenarios time after time time.... Lol whats even funnier is that you mention something about someone holding pckt 10's and then the flop hits A, K, x.. and they call no matter what is bet and they get rewarded by a 10 hitting the turn...... LOL well check this hand out... its exactly the same only with a pckt 6's being the suck out hand...

Full Tilt Poker Game #10533880715: Satellite to FTOPS Event #12 (79104849), Table 20 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:32:15 ET - 2009/02/09
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (1,880)
Seat 2: martytadman (3,255)
Seat 3: SorenKongsgaard (3,015)
Seat 4: billytk01 (2,535)
Seat 6: PokerTul (2,000)
Seat 7: fabregarp (1,620)
Seat 8: JoeSkeeter (1,640)
Seat 9: FR8DOGNV (1,020)
Dave Colclough posts the small blind of 30
martytadman posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billytk01 [Ks Qh]
SorenKongsgaard folds
billytk01 raises to 180
PokerTul folds
fabregarp folds
JoeSkeeter folds
FR8DOGNV folds
Dave Colclough folds
martytadman has 15 seconds left to act
martytadman calls 120
*** FLOP *** [Kc Qd 3d]
martytadman checks
bdubs3737 sits down
bdubs3737 adds 1,170
billytk01 bets 300
martytadman calls 300
*** TURN *** [Kc Qd 3d] [6s]
martytadman checks
billytk01 bets 2,055, and is all in
martytadman calls 2,055
billytk01 shows [Ks Qh]
martytadman shows [6d 6h]
*** RIVER *** [Kc Qd 3d 6s] [9s]
billytk01 shows two pair, Kings and Queens
martytadman shows three of a kind, Sixes
martytadman wins the pot (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes
billytk01 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,100 | Rake 0
Board: [Kc Qd 3d 6s 9s]
Seat 1: Dave Colclough (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: martytadman (big blind) showed [6d 6h] and won (5,100) with three of a kind, Sixes

this shit is too funny...

[buck22]

My FullTilt days are way in the past, thank christ, the consistant bad beats on this site are sooooooo obvious that its not worth talking about, and just withdrawn from pokerstars for the last time. I recently started a mission on stars to build a 20K bankroll, ive played $100 a game comfortably profiting in the past, upward from that was unexplored teratory. 220 games in and i was down $50 playing $13 sit n gos of which my roi at these donkey stakes is 30%, so I shifted the shattered remains of my bankroll ($300) over to ipoker, and quelle f***ing surprise, 120 games in and im upto $1000, cos thats whats meant to happen!!!

90%!! of poker players lose, and random is seldom random, ever see the number board next to a roulette wheel? Always streaks. So to seperate personal mistakes with said rigged sites, one must focus inwards. Do i:

1)Play outside my bankroll? 5% per game,2% MTT
2)Do I give my opponents the implied odds to catch their outs and get paid off?
3)Play an aggressive game such that I will get called so often that I will statistically recieve more bad beats than a normal player?

Take this into consideration first and then frisbie your laptop out of the 3rd story of a block of flats (Im on my 3rd laptop).

My personal down fall pattern on Full Tilt and Stars is that im consistantly mildly unlucky which breaks me even for 5 days, win a few 1 day, then drop 20 buyins in a row through utter bullsh**. You could set your watch by it,every freakin' week. I said 'sick' so many times last month that im sick of saying SICK!

If it's staring you in the face that for whatever reason you are not winning, you need to change your venue or your past time. One thing I remember so clearly from fulltilt was that sinking gut feeling when you are dealt AA, that aint right!! Fulltilt and stars to me are purely a channel to watch high stake pros play.