ONLINE POKER - SITE - Full Tilt

[eldave1]

Havn't heard of that site - I'll check i t out - thanks

[buck22]

Dunno why I come on here, lol, we'll never get to the bottom of it. All I know is when playing other sites I get bad beat 3 or 4 times a day with an oober beat every other day or once a week. On full tilt i'll go days without a bad beat then a wave of oober-beats kick in. It's not so much that these bad beats are in a row (random numbers rarely look random) but its the 10% and lesses in a row. I would say half the days i play on this site i get 4 or more 8% beats and 6-8 bad beats.
Im stuck in this stupid back and forth thought motion of 'it cant be rigged, why would they do that' and 'its right infront of my eyes, this is nearly impossible to run like this on a daily basis, im never playin on here again!'
It pees my off because fulltilt has awsome software design, great functions and lots of player traffic, but i have to stick to sh*t, old school software sites that dont have the foggiest how to run a propper poker site.

[eldave1]

Alright - they win - I can't even use this site for practice it is so rigged. There will be a lawsuit one day. The hand below is the last straw. I had played about 10 percent of the pot - very tight. I get AK suited on the button and raise it 3 times the BB. Mauiboy shoves all in over me with J 8 offsuit - Not call - not raise - all foking in with j 8 offsuit. The flop comes A, K, 4 - rainbow. After the flop I am a 98% favorite. I say to my self - here it comes - turn q triver 10 - I wrote it foking doen on a scratch pad - sure as shit - that is exactly what happened. I am done - if you think this is legit - you're nuts. It just happens too many times. Not the fact that I could lose a hand like that - but the fact that someone shoves over a preflop raise with j 8 offsuit and catches the miracle like they always foking do on this site - they know what cards are coming!!!!!!!


Full Tilt Poker Game #11774302861: $30 + $3 Sit & Go (88305811), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:54:19 ET - 2009/04/19
Seat 1: Max The OG (1,891)
Seat 2: Bighousejim (940)
Seat 5: eldave1 (1,253)
Seat 6: bjrnet (2,444)
Seat 7: Mauiboy23 (1,650)
Seat 8: RiVeR_pok (3,350)
Seat 9: TheHuncher (1,972)
bjrnet posts the small blind of 50
Mauiboy23 posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ac Kc]
RiVeR_pok folds
TheHuncher folds
Max The OG folds
Bighousejim folds
eldave1 raises to 300
bjrnet folds
Mauiboy23 raises to 1,650, and is all in
eldave1 calls 953, and is all in
Mauiboy23 shows [Jc 8h]
eldave1 shows [Ac Kc]
Uncalled bet of 397 returned to Mauiboy23
*** FLOP *** [As 4c Kh]
*** TURN *** [As 4c Kh] [Qd]
*** RIVER *** [As 4c Kh Qd] [Td]
Mauiboy23 shows a straight, Ace high
eldave1 shows two pair, Aces and Kings
Mauiboy23 wins the pot (2,556) with a straight, Ace high
eldave1 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,556 | Rake 0
Board: [As 4c Kh Qd Td]
Seat 1: Max The OG didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Bighousejim didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: eldave1 (button) showed [Ac Kc] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 6: bjrnet (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: Mauiboy23 (big blind) showed [Jc 8h] and won (2,556) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 8: RiVeR_pok didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: TheHuncher didn't bet (folded)

[always_mt]

go look at the opr for my acct and then i will tell everyone what i know about the site and the way it all works always_mt full tilt and party poker

[VA Poker]

You throw out a couple of examples of your hands (actually you didn't even give real examples) and you claim you KNOW its rigged because of a few of your hands. If full tilt is anything like pstars they have close to 30,000 tables going at once during peak hours. Thats roughly 50,000 hands per hour. Unless you have all the data for every hand it is completely ignorant of you to post that you KNOW its rigged. You say its rigged to make you tilt, maybe thats just your personality. Truly good players hardly ever tilt reguardless of the situation. I don't have a problem with people posting their hands and questioning the integrity of full tilt based on those, but for you to say you are sure its rigged based on the microspopic number of hands youve played (in relation to the total hands on the site) is absolutely self centered and ignorant. How would you like it if we were sitting at a table together and I accused you of cheating based on such little info?

[buck22]

I've been playing poker long enough to know when i'm outclassed or have met my match. I wrote on here how fulltilt screwed me and how i moved $200 to ipoker and grinded it up to $2500 only playing 5% of my bankroll, over about 400 games, profiting at 50c/$1 games, i banked out $2300 to start again and now 200 games in ive made zilch, completely broke even, playin $10 games!
I am convinced online poker is rigged, not just full tilt. I'll never play higher than $5 online ever again. Below are 2 tables of $10 heads up games at the same site (ipoker), my initial profit when joining the site, and my current profit after banking out. Im no maths genius but, same game, same stake, shouldnt the results be roughly the same.


Games Staked Profit Time %roi Profit/hr
1. 94 994.5 193.18 15.95 19.43 12.12
2. 84 871.5 -61.5 19.9 -7.06 -3.09

The difference is rediculous, i banked out $260 and am only playing live.

Also, when changing sites i notice $11 seems to vanish into thin air when full tilt is involved, wonder where it goes, cheeky sods, rig the games then carve off a nice slice when you leave. So sick of online poker,im done with it.

[what odds]

Originally Posted by VA Poker

eldave, I understand what you are saying and i can clearly see that you are not alone. However, in my opinion a lot of those things you are saying can be explained. There is so much bad play online that many bad beats are bound to happen and when you run really bad you run way worse than you ever will during live games, Ive been there too. I just think the only difference between internet play and live play is the way people play and solid players tend to remember the terrible beats and forget the many many times a horrible play throws you all his chips. As far as the cashout thing goes in my opinion its psychological. Lets say you play 1/2 cash games and you have 1000 in you account and decide to take 500 out. All of the sudden you only have 250 big blinds and you start to play scared because no one wants to bust. Like you said nobody knows for sure and I don't think we will ever be in agreement unless proof comes out one way or another. I just hope you and the other guys who are sure it is rigged will atleast think about what I said, I'm sure I won't convert any of you but its just something to think about.

This is the common argument FTP will answer with and 'the bad players = mor bad beats' answer is actually completely inaccurate.

Yes, more bad beats happen when playing bad players, but you also win a shit load more as well when hands hold up as well. You'll be getting all in plenty of times often with very good equity edges and you'll grind profits.

I think PS offers a good and fair game. I don't play there but have done so in the past. Open up a few NL4 tables there, play a shit load of hands- the opposition is terrible, you'll get sucked out on from time to time by a bad player chasing against the odds, but over a few thousands hands your equity edge on these hands will SHINE through...every site I've played this has been the case and you can witness your bankroll grow.

At FTP, this doesn't happen. The bad beats keep coming, the cooler hands keep coming and eventually it gets to the point where it is enough to piss off the good humour man.

Every thread like this, someone comes on, disses people, calls them ignorant, tries to defend the site in question and they don't offer anything other than the comments like bad players = more bad beats.

Bad players= more profit, that is what bad players equals...unless you play at FTP.

I've played sessions on sites where I lose in succession and it can be annoying but you accept it as part of poker...the variance of poker, the thing that keeps the bad players coming back as they think they have a chance of winning.

FTP takes this too far, bad players do far better than they should (perhaps why the site is so popular?), winnings players win nowhere near as much as they should (TAG players this is, those who rely on showdown winnings for the majority of their profits)....

I've played sessions and literally laughed out loud at things I've seen bad beats that come in such a small sample size, all bunched together that just literally defy logic. You know the odds and these things happen, but when it happens every 1/7 sessions you have to question the integrity of the game...

I am confident they will be exposed soon.

[nitemare6]

Full Rigged Tilt is a scam site. Scumbags run it. IMHO.

The "professional" poker players who tout Full Tilt on the TV ("we play at full tilt poker") are laughable! These guys have little or no integrity, and have forgotten what the truth is. After all they are POKER PLAYERS! They are used to misrpresenting. They are no more than compulsive gamblers who got lucky to be involved in poker at a time when they get publicity and can earn $$ form other sources than playing poker. I would love to talk with so called "jesus" ferguson and have him answer questions about his rigged poker site. Why does anyone think he is more honest or honorable than the worst CFO during the Wall Street scam years??!

Many of them got indicted years later for fraud, and, in my opinion, IF FTP was within the jurisdiction of the US the owners of F-R-T -and- the poker charlatans (so-called poker "pros") who misrepresent and support this scam site, would also get indicted, eventually.

I agree that these scumabgs will eventually be exposed as corrupt.

Meanwhile I canot play on this site. Its a total joke, and thus... no fun. I am playing live games and enjoy it more.......... EVEN WHEN I get a bad beat or sucked-out. I still feel better knowing that the deck is not rigged by some technology.

On FRT, on the other hand, when I get sucked-out by a ONE or TWO outer repeatedly, there is NO doubt in my mind that it IS a rigged deck/deal.

What fun is that trying to beat a rigged system. Good play doesn't matter on this corrupt site!

[egrimpe]

No way this site is fair. The bad beats are ridiculous. I don't see anything like this playing live poker. When you get ejected from 6 of the last ten games on horrific bad beats, it just can't be explained. If you wind up all in against a 2-4 outer, you hope to win half the time. No one can convince me this is random. The obvious incentive to tilt the game towards the bad players is to keep them coming back for more. when will this finally be exposed?

[egrimpe]

Third time now. Check out hand #11888702469. Pocket Kings. All in after the flop called with secod pair to my overpair. Opponent immediately turns two pair with all chips in the pot. This can not be explained by random selection. Will you respond???

Dominate11

From: [EMAIL="************@fulltiltpoker.com"]************[/EMAIL]
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:51:42 PM
Subject: Re: Fair Play

Just happened again. Second very bad beat against an all in player in the last 45 minutes.


***************************
To: [email]feedback@fulltiltpoker.com[/email]
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:15:10 PM
Subject: Fair Play

How do we know that the selection of cards is fair and random. It appears, and the online chat seems to support, that the frequency of low probability hands connecting, particularly after all the chips are in, is way above normal percentages. Is there any way to prove the game is fair and card selection is random?

[Cransley69]

I have played texas holdem for ten years, including a period living in LA where I supplimented my income playing at the Bicycle Casino ($3&5 blinds) in the evenings after work and AVERAGED $35,000 per year profit(I kept a very detailed spreadsheet).

I returned to the UK on business and there is little access to live cash games around here, so I started playing on-line. FTP has the best user interface, but boy is it rigged. I literally cannot win. I can take down small pots, but get me into a hand where the chips are all going in the middle and I just say goodbye to them.


For example, take this run of hands from the last couple of days: Pocket Aces beaten by pocket fours (opponent flopped a set) Pocket Aces beaten by AQ (opponent flopped a straight) Pocket Kings beaten by pocket queens (opponent flopped a set) Pocket Aces beaten by 7,8 (opponent turned a straight after calling an all-in bet) Each time heads-up, and without any winning pocket Ace or King hands at all in between. Then to top it all, last night I flop a full house with pocket 2's, end up all-in after the flop - way ahead - and the board goes runner,runner to a bigger full house for my opponent.

Then, finally, just now, had pocket Kings again, raised to three times the BB, got one caller out of position, flop comes 10,4,3 with two clubs.

I bet the pot, he calls,, turn is a blank. I go all-in (3 times the pot), he calls with A,8 clubs. River card is a club.

Just the 5 consecutive pocket pairs beaten in a row where they were 82% to win each time, equates to odds of over 3000 to 1, never mind the flopped full house that was 98% to win as well.

Someone's making money out of Full Tilt, but it ain't me, and when my current buy in is gone, I'm going somewhere else more reasonable. Anyone recommend any sites?

[VA Poker]

Why did you preface your statement talking about your winnings? Are you saying just because you had a few winning years that any game you don't win in is automatically rigged? There's no way its legit unless you are taking home 35k a year. Haven't you heard of guys who made millions playing poker and lost every penny of it the same way? So let me get something straight, first you said those pp's got cracked over a few days, then you said it was five consecutive pp's. Are you saying you only had 5 pp's over a matter of days and it was aces or kings everytime? Unless thats the case it was not in fact 5 consecutive pp's so your 3000:1 thing is completely wrong. One thing that jumped out at me is that every pot you lost you knew what the other guy had, meaning you stayed in the hand until the showdown everytime. Have you ever heard of folding a big pp at any point in the hand? If a guys betting big after the river all you can beat is a bluff with aces. But why examine your own play when you can just complain that the site is somehow rigged against you. Maybe all you guys should start a support group. Here's what I don't understand, even if you are sure its rigged, why don't you just not play there? Instead you come on here acting like they owe you some kind of explaination for getting your aces cracked. People are always on here talking about aces getting cracked but they are usually overplaying them. Unless you are deep in a tournament when the stacks are getting short aces aren't always your best friend. Not being able to lay down aces at any point in a hand will get you stacked off over and over again I don't care where you play.

[Cransley69]

You miss the point entirely VA Poker. I didn't go into details about the betting patterns for the big PP hands - some were people all-in before the flop with their holdings - what are you going to do then, fold pocket Aces to an all-in bet before the flop?

The fact is, whether or not you ever fold a big PP like Aces(and I do, on occasions) if you were to see them out, come what may, to the river, they should still win 82% of the time against any other holding when you are heads-up.

Statistically, over several months and thousands of hands, that is not happening.

We should all expect suck-outs against a better hand, but those suck-outs should, over time, be representative of the odds of that happening. On this site that doesn't seem to happen.

Finally, in the final example of pocket kings, my read, and my play was correct - that I was ahead and I needed to raise a significant amount to take the odds away from the opponent with his drawing hand. I did that twice - on the flop and on the turn. He stayed with me both times against the odds and gets rewarded for it.

Now that can happen, but over time, playing that hand identically, I should get rewarded for the opponent playing the wrong side of the odds. I played like that for several years at the Bike and got paid off for it. Play that way at Full Tilt and you don't. Something stinks!

[nitemare6]

VA Poker- Full Rigged Tilt is RIGGED. There is ZERO doubt about that... how about those apples.

The only reason excuse-niks like you can deend this corrupt site is becuase of some vague notion that unless you prove it by x trillion hands then it is not fixed. Sorry I will stick with anecdotal and experience over 5 years on this rigged site to make a decision not to play there.

The only thing that angers meis how they can get away without provding ANY audited data and none of the pros ever address the notion of a rigged online poker site. Why won't hey provde audited data, and respond to so many allegations of a rigged and/or non-random, RNG.

WHY
WHY

THAT ALONE is sufficient for me to not want to ply there. IF this was a legitimate site then they would "defend" it more. But they are making so much money due to the popularity of poker and the will rogers concept that "there is a sucker is born everyday", they can get away with rigged poker.

But let's get to the bottom line: DO YOU make money at FTP. What games do you play in? Do you NOT see many many more beats, suck-outs and inexplicable hands on FTP that cannot be accounted for simply by more deals... then we ever see live games? If not then you must be blind or naive or work for them!

[VA Poker]

nitemare6,
I have played with you on full tilt and you are a cheater, you play 2 computers at once and you cheat. you are a cheater. you cheat, you are a cheater. how you like those apples? Why don't you admit that you are a cheater? I want to audit your hand h istory to prove you're a cheater but you won't let me. Why not?

[nitemare6]

You and your comments sound like you're a whack-job, psycho.

I haven't played a cash game on FTP for about 5 months, and when I did play it's small games and mostly cash tournaments. I never played more than one table except a few times in over FOUR years - u fking a-wipe retard!

You certainly must be some retard that gets paid by the corrupt, scumbag cheaters who run full rigged tilt poker site. Go ahead - admit it! It's so obvious anyway.

LOL

[VA Poker]

Considering the fact that I was mocking you, wack job psycho was exactly what I was going for. Do you really think FTP owes you anything? If you live in the USA you are breaking the law by playing real money on their site and you want to audit their records. You are clearly insane and believe the world revolves around you and your penny stakes poker losses. MAYBE YOU JUST AREN'T AS GOOD AS YOU THINK YOU ARE. I actually have played on full tilt the past month just because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I deposited 400 and started playing 1/2 cash games. After over 100 hours of play I'm up well over 1500. By the way, how old are you? Are you really calling me a "retard". I have a SPECIAL NEEDS daughter, not a retarted daughter as you would put it and people like you make me sick.

[Denethor]

I am pretty new to poker (online or otherwise) so I understand that my comments probably won't carry much weight. I found this page when I started doing some searching because I was becoming so disillusioned with poker in general after playing on FTP.

To me, it seems that there are plenty of advantages to orchestrating the outcome of hands. The biggest of these being that the goal of the site is mass traffic - not a small group of elite players competing with one another.

Imagine two individuals become interested in poker and begin playing on FTP. Bob is in marketing, is a people person, and has always been told he is "lucky". He sees a heads-up tournament and thinks he could have some fun and probably get lucky and maybe even rich and famous at that. Joe is in accounting, is a numbers person, and likes odds and puzzles. He thinks that, with an understanding of the underlying fundamentals and odds, he could probably make a little money every now and then in addition to the enjoyment of playing the odds.

Both are in a tournament on FTP. Bob is dealt K4s and Joe is dealt AA. Bob knows nothing about the strength of his hand or odds and is out-of-position but thinks he remembers his favorite pro shoving all-in last weekend with K4s. Joe is in late position and knows Bob has been playing every hand he gets so he calls all-in. Both players show their cards.

Now, let's follow two different scenarios. In the first, the flop comes 39J rainbow, the turn comes 4h, and the rivers comes Qs. Joe is rewarded for his research and patience and wins with AA. Joe continues to play the same way and increases his skill. Bob is disappointed and assumes it is just bad luck. He catches a break everyone once in a while, but just continues to lose and ultimately gets bored. He think that he's just not lucky.

In the second scenario, the flop immediately comes KK2 giving Bob three of a kind, the turn comes Js, and (to add insult to injury) the river comes 4d. Bob wins with his miraculous full house, congratulates himself on his luck, can brag about his "great hand" to his coworkers, and keeps playing the same way. Joe is crushed, but knows he made the right call. He knows that if he plays enough, he SHOULD come out ahead as long as he plays the right way.

I can guarantee you that there will be far more Bobs than Joes. So, clearly, it would be in the best interest of FTP to artificially keep the Bobs winning against ridiculous odds. If Bob loses, he won't think that he should research his odds and play more carefully - he'll just quit. When Joe loses, he'll continue playing knowing that the odds SHOULD be in his favor.

I'm no statistics guru, but it seems to me that the argument that more bad players equates to more bad beats doesn't make sense. I would think that more bad players should mean more reward for those who play correctly. That never seems to be the case, though.

[VA Poker]

First of all anyone can call with aces, doesnt make you a good player. "joe" doesn't have to know "bob" will play any hand to call with aces, you call with aces everytime pre flop no matter what. Secondly, my point is that the more loose play you see the higher volume of bad beats you will see, I didn't say it increased the percentages of bad beats just the volume and you can't possibly dispute that. Finally, how do you think these sites tell who the "joes" are and who the "bobs" are? Do you think they employ thousands of people to go through every players hand history and peg them as a joe or a bob and decide who to cheat and who to make win? The better player doesn't ALWAYS have the best hand. You can be the most patient player ever, finally pick up KK and run it into AA. So what if the better player has KK does FTP know that or do they give him the king on the flop anyway? Most of these complainers play low stakes, FTP has very high stakes tourneys and cash game thats where they make most of their money. However, you would have us believe they are expending vast resources to make sure the bad penny stakes players are beating the good penny stakes players. Please enlighten me as to how you think the rigging works? Alllll these complainers no one has told me how they figure out who is good and who is bad. I'd really like to hear it.

[Denethor]

In response to VA Poker:

I wasn't trying to talk about the proper way to play pocket AAs preflop. That had nothing to do with my post. I was simply pointing out that it's not like the sites would have nothing to gain from having the sites reward bad play.

My point was that, as many have said before me, these poker sites need the masses to be pleased with their play and their results. If people find out that they have to actually devote some time to learning the game or they will lose all the time, they will not play.

The system doesn't have to be told who is "good" or who is "bad". That is making things far too complicated and is not at all necessary. The site only needs to systematically provide miracle turn and river outs that would never happen in real poker. The players who would be the recipients of these magic bad beats would obviously be the players who made bad decisions. Instead of losing because of their mistakes and allowing good players to benefit from exploiting those mistakes, the system would bail them out.

You say the better player doesn't always have the best hand but isn't that what constitutes the "better player"? And, in my example, didn't the better player have the best hand? Are you saying that K4 is a better hand than AA?

[VA Poker]

In your example, why do you think the better player had AA? It makes no sense, everyone gets AA every once and awhile. Why does this guy picking up AA and having someone shove in front of him make him a better player? Please explain.


Also, you say these "miracles" never happen in "real poker" what does that even mean? Heads up pre flop AA against the worst pre flop hand (72o) still has a 12.5% chance of getting beat. I have been playing "real poker" as you put it, since I was 18 years old (im 34 now) and I have seen my share of crazy things. The last time I player live poker (I'm assuming thats what you mean by "real poker"?) I had JJ, flop went KJ7, he bet, I 3 bet, he 4 bet, I shove, he turns over KK, turn is a blank, river is a jack. Thats a one outer, in "real poker". Even if someone is a 99:1 dog they are going to hit that one time out of a hundred, you can't say something never happens in "real poker" that doesn't make any sense. There is obvious reasons why more unlikely results happen online, I'm not going to bother going into all of them again as I've done it on every post I've made and no one listens. If you read these complainers posts a lot of them say that they are winning live players and lose online, so it has to be rigged. The fact is that unless you play in a live game with crazy crazy action the online game is a whole different animal. I player for 13 years live before ever playing online. The first 6 months online I lost about 3,000. Now I am a winning online player, it took me awhile to realize that I can't play the exact same way I do online as I do live. If i played that way I'd get run over. So alot of these guys, instead of realizing that they should change their online play because its a whole different game, they just say its rigged because they see more beats.

I'm not trying to attack you or anything. Your posts seem to be comprehensive and well thought out, unlike alot of guys who post here who just want to curse and call them cheaters and say they should be thrown in jail. I'm just saying there's alot of variables in poker and you have to realize that. Back to my original point the perfect example of that is your k4 v AA thing. You think the better player obviously has AA but that is in fact not at all true, he just got lucky to pick up AA in that spot. For all we know, the same guy might make the same call with qj suited and be behind the k4.

[Denethor]

I wasn't trying to say that the player receiving AA was a better player just by virtue of receiving AA. But clearly the player going all in with K4s is not going to be a good player. So I should have reversed in my example and had the AA player go all-in first. That really isn't at all relevant to the point I'm trying to make. I chose a poor example.

I was wrong to make assumptions about odd things happening in real poker because of my very limited experience. The problem that I see is that on FTP those 99:1 miracles seem happen all the time. I'm not just talking about to people against whom I'm playing. I see it even when I observe.

I set up an account on PokerStars a couple weeks ago, but hadn't played there hardly at all because I prefered the FTP software. I went to PokerStars and entered a play-money tournament equivalent to one I had been in most recently on FTP. The difference was like night and day.

I play tournaments ridiculously tight and agressive. That's not any brag on me because it's not "my" style or anything. That's just how much of I've read suggests beginners play. On FTP, I would blind out over and over before reaching the top 20. I just never received any playable pocket cards. I would go 50 hands without ever receiving anything better than K8o. When I did get what I counted as playable cards, I never hit the flop and others with significantly inferior pocket cards would get exactly what they needed (three of a kind, flush, full house, etc.). There were never any reasonable victories - only over-the-top ones. People didn't win with pairs or high cards. They won with straight flushes and four of a kind. Strong pocket cards just could not win in FTP tournaments.

The first and only tournament I played on PokerStars (just finished), I used the exact same ultra-tight play that I did on FTP, and I cruised to fourth place - even with antes! I am certain that I would NOT have won (terrible in heads up) but am confident I could easily have finished higher if I hadn't called an all-in because I had to leave. Most hands were decided by pairs or an occasional three of a kind. Players weren't as crazy about calling any raise with any card. Every hand didn't turn into an all-in-fest. It was so much nicer.

Now, you may just say that the difference was that the other players were playing tighter than those do on FTP. Or you could say that I was playing with worse opponents and was able to finish higher. Either of those could be the case, but they were still playing pretty poorly (all-in with TQo when I had AQs and raised substantially pre-flop) and this was a very low level tournament. Instead, my thinking is that the players on FTP play the way they do (calling everything, all-in all the time, etc.) for the simple reason that playing that way works on FTP. If people consistently lost when shoving all-in with 78s, they would either quit or learn that it's not the right way to play. Instead, for whatever reason, they hit these bizarre miracles on the turn or river upsetting much better hands enough that they think they are playing well and are making the correct calls.

[Denethor]

I guess to sumarize what I'm trying to say:

A system designed to encourage poor and below average players to continue playing would very much benefit a poker web site and would not need to mark each individual player as either "good" or "bad".

My claim isn't that "good players" are punished and "bad players" are rewarded. I'm saying that it APPEARS that bad play (not bad playERS) is rewarded too often and consequently good play is punished.

Also in a completely different direction, if you just look at society, everyone loves action and excitement. No one likes the defensive-oriented team that grinds out wins. They want the high-powered offense that scores big. Likewise, most people are not going to be happy playing in poker games where they have to fold 80% of their hands and often win uncontested pots when they raise with good cards. They want showdowns and big twists. They want big hands being beat by bigger hands being beat by huge hands all decided by the river.

Lastly, the fact that I didn't treat calling all-in with AA as a foregone conclusion shows how little faith I have in pocket aces after playing on FTP. I can't remember a time when I saw AA (mine or others) hold up on FTP.

[VA Poker]

I understand what you are saying but you have to see the big picture. You, and most of the other people who claim FTP is rigged are playing pretty low stakes (not to degrade I play low stakes myself). My point is, why would FTP bother rigging these small games when most of their profit comes from high level cash games and large buy in sng's and mtt's. We are lucky they even offer the low stakes games. Why would they risk losing the high stakes guys by rigging the low level games? To me, it just makes no sense. Not a single high stakes player has come on here claiming its rigged, nor has a single player come on and claimed the site is working in their favor, how can it be against everyone?

The other thing is, I've played on 4 different sites over the past few years and on every single site, every time there is a bad beat someone in the chat box screams rigged. The only differences I've seen on these 4 sites (ultimatebet, pokerstars, fulltilt, and playersonly) is the level of play. UB and PO have way more fish than stars and ft. Granted I've put in the least time on full tilt, I've still seen about 20,000 hands by multi tabling for about 100 hours. Poker players will always look for any excuse why they got screwed or are unlucky (haven't you heard those who claim they have NEVER won a single race?), the bottom line is that if these people really truly believed ftp of any other site was rigged they would never spend another penny playing there (unless they are crazy).

I don't claim that I KNOW for sure 100% that these sites are not rigged. It's just my opinion that sites worth billions of dollars wouldnt jeopardize their whole net worth and reputation by rigging a 10 dollar sng so some fish will like poker more. It just seems to me that everyone who claims its rigged for sure is just looking at their small immediate experience and not grasping the full scope of these sites operations and the consequences vs rewards for these sites to rig the lowest level games.

As far as your claim that people only play poorly bc they know it works, you have to think about the nature of gambling. Some guys really want to be skilled poker players and some guys simply want to gamble. There are rich guys who sit down at the highest level tables and play horribly just because they crave the action. I lost 5k on the blackjack tables last time I was in Vegas, it wasnt because I thought I somehow had some advantage playing high stakes blackjack drunken and sleep deprived, I was just gambling. Thats what those guys who never ever lay down the suited connectors pre flop are doing. You'll see those guys no matter how high you make it up the ladder in poker. It's kind of like me writing these posts when there is about a 10000:1 shot I will convince anyone to think like me who already doesnt.

[VA Poker]

Here's what you guys don't understand; The guys who play terrible hands all the time are action junkies. They aren't playing those hands because they think they are always ahead. They like action, you see guys like that at every single level of poker. So, if you are one of those guys you are going to keep playing win, lose, or draw(ever heard of the Beal game?). However, the guys who play solid poker with the goal of making a good profit aren't going to keep playing if they keep losing. So, tilting the odds in favor of the action junkies is not at all the way to increase volume of players. They are going to be there no matter what and all the solid players are going to switch over to pokerstars or some other site. If they are in fact doing what you guys claim they are, they aren't only corrupt but very very stupid. To use the original example given by Denethor to prove his point; the guy with K4 is most likely an action junkie, he'll keep playing whether or not his bad hands hit an unusual amount of times. He plays because the action is thrilling to him, its not about winning or losing. However, the patient guy in his example with AA plays to win money. So, how does tilting the odds in favor of the straight gambler help? He's there to gamble and he'll stay reguardless. So tilting the odds in his favor is useless all it is going to do is make the patient guys who are really there to win money leave your site. Once again, I have NO IDEA if full tilt is corrupt or not. I've only played 20,000 hands there and I'd have to play about 100x that before I even started to make an educated guess based on my own results. I am just saying that in my opinion rigging the site the way you guys say they do would make absolutely no sense.

[VA Poker]

what odds,
I'm not attempting to debate you on whether or not full tilt is rigged. As I've stated over and over I have no idea, only played 20k hands, haven't seen anything too weird but that is irrevelant. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that you and I can't possibly know either way, so that isn't what I'm trying to debate. I was merely trying to challenge the point made by denethor that tilting the odds in favor of the guys who play poor hands means higher volume and more rake for full tilt. I know gambling and I know poker; in my opinion the guys who are consistently overplaying hands and pushing with nothing are simply using poker as another form of gambling. Every true gambler (people who play against the house over and over even though they KNOW the odds don't run in their favor) knows, the fun of gambling isn't even winning it's the thrill, it's the moment right before you find out if you hit that river card, or the thrill waiting to see if your huge bet is going to get your opponent off of his monster. Now in my opinion if a guy just loves the action, you don't need to tilt the odds in his favor to keep him around. Why cheat the guy who is there to win money and give it all to the guy who doesnt really care and just loves to gamble? Take yourself as an example, you play to win money ( I assume), you felt like you were getting a bad deal at FTP so you left. If they are consistently cheating players who are playing to win, they are all going to leave. If anything it makes more sense to cheat for the guys who play to win money so they will stay because the gamblers are staying reguardless. Do you see what I'm saying? I understand the psychology of both because I pride myself on playing the best poker I possibly can but often partake in other gambling avenues in which I know I don't have an edge. I do it for fun. Many guys take that same attitude to the poker table and those guys will play poker forever, why cheat for them and scare off the guys who are playing to win money? I'd like to hear what you think about that, but once again I am not trying to prove full tilt is not rigged. It's just my opinion that it makes no sense to rig it the way all of you suggest.

[VA Poker]

what odds, I wanted to ask you about RB. I've played over 1 million hands online on pokerstars, fulltilt, ultimatebet, and playersonly and have never used rakeback. I've only heard about it a couple of times. How does it work and how do you use it? Thanks.

[VA Poker]

Thanks for the info. If you are looking for a loose Cake site, try playersonly. It's probably the loosest site I've ever played on. I've also seen more hands than I have on any other site and can say that I have definitely not seen the high frequency of odd things that you all swear to see on FTP. If I am playing a tournamenr or Sng and I look up someone on sharkcope, their stats are generally what you would expect based on their play. It is a low volume site though, you can always find a cash table but it's weak for sng's and mtt's.

How do I take advantage of rakeback? It sounds too good to be true for me considering I already have a Cake site I like and am comfortable with.

[buck22]

No.1 I do not trust Full Tilt at all and will never play there for this reason. Denethor, on a table of 9 players, when you have KK some one else will have AA just under 4% of the time so it happens but not that often. However, being a great poker player isnt about always following the book, you've got to learn how to exploit the way others are playing eg the tosspot who called you with QK didnt make as big a mistake as he should because he got your whole stack. Like so:

Suppose you both start $1500

you raise 60 preflop then 240 on the flop

with QK he will lose $240 86% of the time

and win $1500 14% of the time

so your expected value (EV) is as follows:

(240x0.86)-(1500x0.14)= -$3.6

So even though he made what looked like a donkey play, and he probably didnt know this but he made the right play. You can blame luck but play this hand a million times and you'll be down around $3.6million.

Now, if you had checked it down when the scary overcard came along then:

you would win $240 86%
and lose $240 14%

(240x0.86)-(240x0.14)= +$172.80

It's these huge differences in mistakes that grinds the profit, so even though i think full tilt is dodgy, i think you'll have problems where ever you go unless you improve your game.

[Denethor]

Thanks for the tips, odds.

I know that I played it poorly. It seems that quality cards come along so rarely that I push them too hard when I get them. In this instance, I bet way to much on both the flop and the turn putting myself in a bad position, and I should never should have called the all-in. I was trying too hard to get him to just fold rather than hang around and pick up something to beat me on the turn or river and found I'd dumped too much already when he went all-in.

Aside from not knowing when to quit, was there anything specific about my play or betting that would have told him that I didn't have AA or KK? Obviously, you can't know how this specific player would have responded, but do you think that going all-in after the flop might have saved me? I guess, what I'm asking is what I did to telegraph that I didn't have him beat. I don't think I would have had the guts to ride it out the way he did if the situation (and betting) was reversed. I probably would have folded after the flop thinking the other player had three As. If I did make it to the river, I would have assumed he had a straight A high.

Played another $1 SnG trying to burn through what's left of my captive money. I botched my last hand on there. I was in the BB with A9 and the flop came A8A. I was running short on time, so I went ahead and played as though I had it. Since I knew where three of the As were, I thought maybe I'd get lucky and nobody would have the fourth, but I got knocked out. Another player had it, though with AK, but they didn't win it either. As usual, I didn't keep in mind that whatever the most improbable hand is, somebody probably has it. The player that won the pot had 88 for a full-house. The full-house flop was annoying enough, but also one of the other players had KK and another 77. So we had AK, KK, 77, and 88, and the board was A8A5T.

In hindsight, I'm regretting a lot of my posts on here and may trim or remove them altogether. Considering no more than I've played and how much of the oddities I've encountered, I would think that my experiences that I've posted add a small amount of additional evidence to support the claim that something just doesn't seem right at FTP. On the other hand, though, I think my inexperience and how poorly I've played in the examples may make them seem less valid or credible.

Your last comment about top pair seems all too true. It's almost like it's necessary to rethink the odds on various hands - like AA and KK are no longer the pre-flop cards with the best chance of winning. That's one thing that has really driven me crazy. The whole reason why I'm playing so tight and agressive as instructed is because it's supposed to make it so that I'm usually going in with a premium (if not the best) hand. That should minimize the impact of my inexperience and bad play. If I was limping in with 56s or 9To, then it wouldn't surprise me if I was always getting myself into trouble. If I were to play nothing less than AA and don't fold, then mathematically I should still win the majority of the time regardless of how much I botch the play after the flop. Obviously, I do play less than AA, but the guide I use has me playing pretty selective. Other than when I'm the BB and everyone checks, I absolutely won't even call the BB with anything less than 99 or QJs and only play those in late position if nobody before me has raised. Early position, I won't call the BB with anything less than TT or AJs. You would think that would provide some amount of security against my ineptitude after the flop.