ONLINE POKER - SITE - Full Tilt

[VA Poker]

I don't have too much experience with FTP. I deposited a few buy ins and played some NL200 there for almost a month. I pretty much only did this because of this thread. I was up a good bit for awhile but when on a terrible run (mostly due to poor play) and lost everything. I personally like their site but didn't like the competition too much. I have a really agressive style and sometimes clash with the ultra agressive eastern/northern european style that dominates Full Tilt. It's the type of competiton that you can make the perfect read and the perfect bluff only to have your opponent make a horrible call and have his basically nothing beat your bluff. Playing against this type of competition straightforward and concentrating on getting max value on big hands instead of bluffing too much is def. the way to play but I just didn't switch my style well enough. Also, I found myself with this little voice in the back of my head everytime I took a bad beat saying "what if they are right" lol. I didn't start to believe or anything but just that little voice kept me from playing there anymore, that is how I know playing there must suck for you, you have a voice yelling at you lol. Honestly, I didn't keep any stats or anything but just from what I saw in a small 10-20k sample I didn't see anything that looked to weird, or a string of things that didn't look right. I'm not saying this validates my point at all I just didn't see much.

Obviously my results there don't compare well to my results on other sites. I've been a winning player for awhile, I usually go back and forth between PlayersOnly and Pokerstars. Playersonly is on cake so you might be familiar with it. I like playing there a lot better because I feel the competition is softer but Stars has such high volume and great tournaments I always keep an open account. As far as the whole FTP thing I wouldn't take much stock in my results I played horribly and tilted off about 3k in a week my last week there and I certainly can't blame that on FTP. However, if getting people not to play there is what you're after, you've accomplished that with me. Your arguments have put the slightest bit of reasonable doubt in my mind about the validity of full tilt, therefore I'd rather put my money on the line elsewhere. I'm not converting or anything but I have to admit that. For that reason, I'm sure you can see why you playing there is incomprehensible to me. If it bothered me and I don't even t hink you are right, I'm sure it just killed you. But hey, if it IS rigged and you've kept me from playing there I guess I owe you one. Sadly, I don't think we'll ever know.

[buck22]

Still find the whole reasoning for rigging their RNG hard to swallow, must be quite a large number of people that would return to fulltilt if they had another trusted third party audit and assessed their RNG, maybe a we could put together a pertition. It sucks cos my bankrolls gettin quite hefty and FT seems the only place to move up in the game.

To talk strategy, do you think 9-tabling was partly a factor in your loss in 50k hands? Because what was ABC poker 10 years ago isnt the same ABC as today, the latest poker books are making the old books obsilete. One major difference I saw on FT last time I played was the small ball,passive-aggressive style most of the players employ. Yes, there's alot of donkeys moving in with Qhigh only to spike it on the river, its $5, but I wonder whether theres a reason your strategy doesn't balance on this site. The problem with playing 9 tables against alot of passive-aggressive players is ABC poker will be torn apart(or break even, minus rake) by reverse-implied odds. Just to clarify, reverse implied odds are when your coninuation in the pot will either win a small pot or lose a huge pot. Here's an example:

Nl cash 2c/5c, you raise AK to 15c, button calls everyone folds. Flop come down A 3 10, you raise 22c, opponent calls. Turn is a 9. You raise 50c, opponent calls. River is a 4. You bet 50c, opponent reraises to $1.80, you call. Opponent shows 910 and takes $5.41
Now to break this down, we'll assume your opponent will fold if misses on the turn. His outs are about 17% with one draw.This means when you:

WIN
0.83 x 22c = +18.26c

LOSE
0.17 x -255c = -43.35c
_______
EV = -25.09c

At a single 50c/$1 table, for a good player this river bet should be an easy fold. You would think 'this players only been showing down atleast 2pair, TPTK doesn't look so big by the river, and I dont want to make a huge mistake' muck. But I defy anyone playing 9 tables of $5 to make this fold, everyone may say they would, but realisticly, your gonna look them up in the assumption that these inexperienced players are playing too many weak hands and bluffing too much. In a SNG, you probably would have +EV playing this hand because his implied odds are worsened by the short stack, but in 100BB cash games, the advantage is with your opponent.

We aren't gonna know if FT is rigges, but if i had to put my money on what's going on, I'd bet that alot of players are getting in situations like this in small stake games, and not realising that there strategy is a dog to this sites style and rake. The fact is, I used to write on forums saying that pokerstars was rigged, I didn't know how to really evaluate hands, and just assumed that I was getting really unlucky, could have sworn I was a favourite, but looking back, I had some leaks in my game when I shifted my roll from soft Pacific to tough stars and FT games. Today I swear by the site, but leaves me wondering whether these conspiracy theory's are just bollox.

[VA Poker]

Even though I agree with Buck22 about the RNG, I think whatodds might be right about the example. In that example you are kind of assuming that the guy who flopped middle pair is pretty good and the guy who flopped TPTK is not. In reality, if the better player flopped TPTK he would almost certainly be able to get away from it after the river raise. Also, if the guy who flopped MP is just your average micro calling station, he is not only calling the turn but the river as well even if he misses, he still has a pair after all, they don't fold pairs often. Playing at those stakes is basically a balancing act of getting great value with things like top pair, while being smart enough not to stack off to the guy who caught his second pair on the river. That way you ruin their implied odds which are telling them they can take your whole stack if they hit. As whatodds said, its usually pretty easy to tell when they hit. If you bet into the average micro guy after the river with him holding 2nd or 3rd pair you are getting called, if that guy happened to hit 2 pair on the river, you are getting raised. Thats why betting TPTK for a third time after the river is profitable in micro and is def. not at all profitable in bigger games. Obv there are certain guys who might make the raise on the river with a busted draw or something, but if a guy has that in his arsenal you will find out soon enough. This is why micro games are easily beatable with an ABC, TAG style of just waiting for big hands and maxing the value you get from them. Also, if he's had success at all the other sites on micro levels im sure he knows how donks play and how to beat them. If I had to take a guess at why he wasn't successful at FTP (assuming the RNG isnt rigged) I would say its mental. IMO no player can ever win at anything that they just KNOW they are going to lose at. That goes for everything not just poker. So if whatodds went into these 50k hands knowing he was going to be cheated and lose, he was destined to lose IMO which is why I've repeatedly told him he's crazy for playing there if he thinks its rigged.

[buck22]

Tis a wise theory VA, confidence plays an almighty part of poker. In my previous example, I was singeling out a certain type of player that I've encountered alot on FT, they WILL call a flop bet (because most players today have read super system) with middle pair, but throw it away under turn pressure. The example wasn't meant to be a random $5 player, just seems FT has some slightly wised up fish.

Most other sites low stakes games are players who get dominated by a 'continuation bet'/'balance a few bluffs in' supersystem style play that is the basics of poker. The fold equity is huge, and when they catch a hand, it sticks out like a saw thumb. It's great, low variance! But FT has alot more aggresive players and alot more small-ball players testing the water which even though it seems like bad play, is actually losing less than the fore-mentioned players at other sites.

I think I mentioned in a previous post that after grindin a role up, i had to bank out for bills. Was so used to the higher games that when i started again from $200, it was a freakin nightmare! And this was on stars! Took me so long to get it going, and amount of bad beats was excruciating!! If you compared my play then to the last two months, sooooo much more discipline now, cos im not tilted 24/7 from badbeats and robotic ABC games, I definatley blame my bad runs on FT on this, i'd play brilliantly, it'd grind me down, then id make mistakes and blame it on bad players/beats.

Anyway, the biggest cash cow on low stake games is SNG's short-handed. Even the crap cash game players know they have to wait for a decent hand to get their money in, but in low/medium stake SNG's, anyone that has a copy of 'Harrington on tournys' can inhialate these games. There's a guy I play with on some high stake SNG's that is up $60,000 and i swear, he just sits there and waits for AA,KK,QQ,AK, it's so sick that this basic style is crushing pretty high buyin tournys, seriously, the SNG players are ridiculously soft compared to cash.I recommend.

But VA has a major point about your confidence on FT, good to hear you're done with it for that reason. As for multi-tabling, when I started grinding on stars in January, I broke even for 150 games playing 2x$10 SNG, I did the necessary 'rigged!' post, but I see alot of players not doing well cos they're multitabling to the extreme and losing quite an edge to it, me being one of them. I know your up on every other site but thought it might be useful info. Good luck grinding a new role! I recommend stars!

[VA Poker]

I guess I missed your point a little bit Buck. I didn't realize you were saying the micro guys on FTP might be able to lay down the middle pair after the turn. I thought you were just giving an example about how things would play out anywhere in a micro game. So, if your theory is right, it is possible that it negatively impacted whatodds win rate. I know exactly what you mean about moving down. I usually play NL200 but after a horrible run a few months ago I played NL50 for about 2 weeks. Thats how I know that a very basic style of waiting for good hands and getting max value out of them works well. You can't bluff them, so getting way more value than you should with hands like top pair is the only way to get your edge. Thats why I said I thought the player with middle pair in the previous example would have called down all the way whether or not he improved. I saw that so many times at NL50, I promise there were even times when a never improved AK called me down on three streets.

Sorry whatodds I don't play on FTP anymore and never kept any HH when I did so I can't really help with that TPTK thing. I see how it is very significant though. As we've both said being a profitable low stakes player basically relies on your ability to get value out of calling stations. Considering the fact that so many guys at that level call down 3 streets with less than TPTK it seems like you'd have definitely ran across it somewhere in a 50k sample. Maybe Buck had a point that some of the FT micro guys are not as big of calling stations as micro players elsewhere. However, I don't see how this could have never happened in 50K hands. Kind of strange I'll admit.

[buck22]

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting Whatodds would play out a hand like this in theory, but believe someone multitabling up to 9 tables could easily make this mistake and believe it was down to bad luck. If someones not getting TPTK to the river EVER, this suggests the opponents in these games are folding dominated hands on turn and river, and only calling/raising when outdrawing it, this would appear like TPTK just doesn't stand up.

SNG's are so soft that playing strong hands in position, ABC poker, beats the game sufficiently, hitting TPTK can easily stack an opponent with top pair. The play is loose and passive so AK is the nuts! However my experience with cash games, even micro, are that because the blinds are so small, most players sit and wait for big hands, as Dan Harrington put it, the tight-aggressive style is very tough to beat, even if its an amateur utilising it. SNG's are profitable in robot mode, but the cash games take a level of mixing up your game to trick your opponents. I can't remember the last time I felted a player with TPTK because in tight games, this hand either wins a small pot or loses a big pot. Personally they win some small pots until your suited-conectors or pocket pairs hit the flop hard, then taking AA,KK, and TPTK to value town, because at micro stakes players dont wait 1/2hour just to fold AK when an ace flops. I really think since considering TPTK as a small pot hand (unless check-call 3 streets or SNG), my stats have improved.

Ive just finished reading Harrington on Cash Games vol 1&2, great books, and a section really improved my game. So simple 'small hand,small pot. Big hand, big pot'. Well duh! Thats poker! But theres 2 advantages to keeping TPTK pots small, 1, opponents that outdraw you cant bet as much on the river, and 2, it can induce a bluff from a hand that wouldve folded or get your river value bet called by a weaker hand. Sorry for waffling but the point I am making is that the over-valueing of TPTK and overpairs is where most players fall, this is what I look for in my opponents.

We should start another thread on strategy, think this FullTilt one has had it.

[nitemare6]

OK...

so tonight I play a .60 tournament - lol

I am down to 1/2 buy in - dealt 45 suited - Button raises 4.5 times BB and oen caller. I go all in with 45s (500 chips ) to just see how the hand is dealt. Both players call. So flop comes 4710 rainbow

Button bets ALL IN (1900) and other donk callls him (he probably wanted to go head-up against me) -

so the donk who called has 3s and the ALL IN donk has AQ (in other words he has --->squat)

BUT - this is full rigged tilt, so let's see what happens. Will my 4s hold up?

Turn is a J

Guess what river is?? ---> The FULL of crap Rigged tilt K - so guys hits a straight, and I lose.

Total B.S. "poker" site - laughable

[buck22]

So you pushed all in (not bad at all with only 4.5 BB left) with suited cons, and got 2 others all in , AQ and 33.

45s= 32%
33 = 26%
AQ = 42%

You're calling a site laughable because the fave, middle, and dog actually won in the right order? This thread is getting beyond weak, these examples are meaningless, this in particular doesn't even make sense cos the best hand won. Theres a leak in your game or you havent given enough time for the variance of multitable tournys to balance out,l i seriously think it's the former if you can't anylise a basic multiway all-in properly. Maybe im missing the point and this is where players just like to vent their tilt, if so, sorry, and carry on. But im only getting more convinced FT is straight.

[nitemare6]

Keep playing on this scam site; I don't really care.

There is little doubt its rigged. IF the guy with AQ (who made a crap call + a crap all in bet) got a Q or A then - ok. But after flop I was ahead.

In real games it is likely I might have held up, but ore importantly no guy would have called an ALL IN with AQ AFTER that flop (since he had -0-) that is ZERO = NOTHING. And the guy with a pair of 3s. What the F was he doing in the hand calling an ALL IN in the 1st place with no pair adn no real draw?@!

IF the guy with AQ caught an A or Q, maybe that would make some sense as "that's poker". But they (full rigged scum) deal him two (2) runners to give him a straight. There are more straights and flushes on Full Tilt in two (2) hours then in a live game over 2 days.

This hand I posted shows how this scam site seeks to enhance rakes.

You know on this forum -- we never address the real issues on Full Rigged Tilt; which is that they program hands for rakes. Instead guys ruminate and try to find rationalzations about how this could or might happen in live games with a real deck, and how this is not rigged ealing but coincidence etc. etc. That is BS.

I have been a trial lawyer for over 20 years; it is highly likely I think better than most on this forum. You don't need proof beyond all doubt or to some infinite mathematical level to establish that this "poker" site is not really dealing real random hands that in some shape or form at lease sort of match the REAL odds and REAL probabilities in real games.

Anecdotal and circumstantial evidence is strong enpough (for me ) on this scam site over 4-5 years, to prove to me that it is rigged. It quacks like a duck and walks like a duck. Then it is a duck most of the time.

LOL --- what are some of you guys going to say when someday there is an expose' on this rigged poker site???!!

I bet some of you will still defend these clowns becasue there are some people in life that just don't GET IT.

Polllyanna and naive.

Those people you can never show them the way or convince them otherwise. They are just low-level thinkers and stubborn minds who object for the sake of their egos.

Look at VA Poker. The guy says he never played much on F-rigged-T (in a recent post) but here he ---is defending them -- it's laughable -- LOL

[VA Poker]

nightmare

Since you called me out by name for no apparent reason I guess I'll attemp a response. I defend FTP because almost every argument I see on here for it being rigged makes no sense. You just literally posted a hand in which you went all in with 4 5 before the flop, got two callers, and lost. What the hell is supposed to happen when you go all in before the flop with 5 high and get 2 callers? You also try to demean your opponents by talking very disrespectfully about their play. If you want better opponents, play a higher game. You just bragged about how you are a big trial lawyer and therefore a better thinker than anyone here. You don't have money to play a game more than 60 cents?I know, Iknow its rigged thats why you don't play higher,right? Better yet, why not just go to one of 1,000 other online sites and play there? You like playing FTP because when you lose you can tell yourself its fixed, and you have an excuse as to why you are playing a .60c game. With all the personal attacks and childish name calling you have thrown around on this forum I highly doubt you are actually a trial lawyer. However, if you are, you might know something about the burden of proof. The burden is on you for making this claim against FTP and you have not shown anything close to proof.

[buck22]

Nightmare,people don't think better than other people, they have different ways of thinking on subjects. You could be Albert Einstien but doesn't mean you've got a clue when it comes to poker. IF ftp is rigged, then the arguements and hands you put forward don't even point out a problem, let alone actual evidence. What is important is WHEN the money goes in, if it goes preflop, the board could come out AcKcQcJc10c because its the same odds as 2c6hJdJs8h. You proved that the favourite won in your last post ffs.

Theres 99 reasons to every 1 for losing money at poker so if you cant see why people are offering other explanations, maybe your judgement could be slightly clouded. No.1 Stop playing on this site, ive told everyone that i got stats on stars that hold up, move sight. Spend 6 months playing stars but id put a tenner on that you have the same problem there too.

However ive just picked up my biggest donkey 2009 award for drinking beer then sinking £150 on red chasing £10, 4 blacks in a row!!! RIGGEDDDDDD RIGGGGGGGGGGGEDDDD!!!! Man what a tw*t I really am, had to bank out $300 of my bankroll to cover it, just had to let it out, tw*t tw*t tw*t TW*T!!! but nightmare u still suck lol

[buck22]

I have no idea, im round my mates for the week so i guess that means i left my computer on, either that or when the site just leaves us logged on.

[VA Poker]

I'm in the same spot as Buck. I don't even know what you're talking about, there is literally something that is telling you that me and Buck are here 24/7, or are we just here a lot when you check who is viewing the thread? Using your common sense do you think me and Buck are viewing this thread 24 hours a day? I don't know how to check any of that but I'd be willing to bet that neither of us are viewing this 24 hours a day. As far as the FTP thing goes I'm not even going to honor that with a response. If you think FTP would pay money for people to respond to a thread in which 90% of the people are idiots, playing penny games ,crying about beats that aren't even close to bad, you must be crazy. I really don't think calling us out on this was necessary, I think you know that we don't view this stupid thing 24/7 and you also know FTP doesn't pay us for this dumb crap. Either way I guess I should retire from this thread so I'm not accused of being a FTP spy yet another time...

[eldave1]

For posterity sakes - wanted to post my last full tilt hand on the net - it is so indicative of why I will not deposit another dollar on this site. As the turn hits I think - man I hope he Ace-9 or even pocket nines cause there is no way I am losing this hand - wrong. What a foking joke of a site


Full Tilt Poker Game #13714811819: $10,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (101125059), Table 87 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:42:08 ET - 2009/07/30
Seat 1: I got that Beat (5,435)
Seat 2: donkeysur (9,105)
Seat 3: eldave1 (13,220)
Seat 4: cosmo kramer 0 (2,260)
Seat 5: nc1976 (7,410)
Seat 6: NapalmOma (3,470)
cosmo kramer 0 posts the small blind of 50
nc1976 posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [Ts Td]
NapalmOma folds
I got that Beat folds
donkeysur raises to 350
eldave1 calls 350
cosmo kramer 0 folds
nc1976 calls 250
*** FLOP *** [7s 8d 6h]
nc1976 checks
donkeysur bets 1,100
eldave1 calls 1,100
nc1976 folds
*** TURN *** [7s 8d 6h] [9s]
I got that Beat adds 2,000
donkeysur bets 1,400
NapalmOma adds 2,000
eldave1 raises to 2,800
nc1976 adds 2,000
donkeysur calls 1,400
*** RIVER *** [7s 8d 6h 9s] [9h]
donkeysur has 15 seconds left to act
donkeysur bets 4,855, and is all in
eldave1 calls 4,855
*** SHOW DOWN ***
donkeysur shows [9d 9c] four of a kind, Nines
eldave1 mucks
donkeysur wins the pot (18,610) with four of a kind, Nines
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 18,610 | Rake 0
Board: [7s 8d 6h 9s 9h]
Seat 1: I got that Beat didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: donkeysur showed [9d 9c] and won (18,610) with four of a kind, Nines
Seat 3: eldave1 (button) mucked [Ts Td] - a straight, Ten high
Seat 4: cosmo kramer 0 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: nc1976 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: NapalmOma didn't bet (folded)

[buck22]

Thankyou Eldave! You've given the last piece of evidence I need to be 100% that Full Tilt has a perfectly working RNG. I came on this site over a year ago expecting to build my reassurance that Full Tilt is rigged, and it has done quite the opposite. You look at every posted hand on here and theres weeks and even months in between them, which is how often horrific awful bad runs happen. Eldave your last post was 2 months ago, spose you've kept all those bad streaks in between to yourself huh?

I love stars, my stats have balanced nicely in the 6-8bb/100 and 27%ROI over 100,000's of hands but in the last 3 days i've had a streak of colddecks and badbeats thats worst than this whole thread put together, you just wouldn't believe it, dropped $1.5k, BUT THIS JUST HAPPENS!! It happened last week aswell, dropped about $600, horrible run this last fortnight but screaming rigged isn't only thick, it doesn't benefit anyone, it just tilts you and makes you play badly. Eldave, your example of him catching lucky trips on turn and taking you to the cleaners has happened to me 6!!!!!!times in 3 days, along with about 8 monster under monster and around 5 bad beats, now thats something to write home about. But when i look at my stats, all is in order.

The problem with this thread is it's made up of:
1. Poor players that can't assess true odds
2. Multitable tournament players that dont realise they arent going to see a big win for a while cos the variance is humungous, you'd have to survive soooo many spins to get in the top 3 places, meanwhile, guess what knocks you out.....BAD BEATS!!!! Not unlucky, inevitable!
3. By the bookers- players that read supersystem like every other poker player on the planet and wonder why their stats are low.
4. People who don't appreciate the true nature of variance, all streaks baby!

Or a combination of the above. Start another thread called ' Todays colddecks and badbeats' but continuing this bull about it being rigged is just ridiculous. You'll never improve if you always have the site to blame.

[nitemare6]

I must agree with some recent comments. I am going to put more money on some other sites, and go in with an open mind.

I played in a $1 -$10K tournament and was 200/8600 before getting sucked out (my set of 4s beaten by runner runner runner straight)on a hand that I have no idea why I was called since "donk" was risking 1/3 of his chips with only 200 players left-- of course he was the chip leader at table so maybe not a total donk. I thought he was sucked in by my quasi-slo-play after hitting the 4 on the flop; only he must have "known" that FTP would deal him 3 runners to his crap-backdoor-drawing-hand to produce a winning straight. But maybe it was just "poker".

Online poker that is - lol

Anyway, being that I play good poker (i think) and have played for over 20 years long before the recent hysteria over Holdem and WPT/WSOP, I should try to play higher stakes and try other sites. So (mates), I will report back in a few months after I invest a few thousand and see what happens in higher games and tournaments.

Meanwhile I am going to play my FTP $1 -$10,000 tournament tonight --- see if I can't finish in top 9. It's actually better competition once you get down to 200-300 players

[nitemare6]

One more thing:

Aussie

Aussie

Aussie

[eldave1]

Just for the record - he didn't beat me with the trips on the turn - his third nine made the straight for my pocket tens - he beat with the quads on the river - I know that does not change your opinion - but thought it ought to be at least accurate

[nitemare6]

Played in $1 tournament on Friday - 9400 players

Finished 480 - ITM.

Made bad play after I hit a straight on the river but card was suited to 2 other board cards. I pushed all in which in hindsight was a bonehead play since other guy either folds or beats me with flush. I knew he was in hand for some reason - DUH.

No need to push at that point.

[billytk01]

i just won a borgata tourney in Atlantic City during the summer poker open.. It felt good to see how real poker is played and finally see the cards hold up in accordance to statistics... i felt in control and got my money in usually well ahead... anyways, i got more of the poker itch and i recently reopened my ft account to see if anything has changed on the site since being off for over 4 months... but alas its still rigged as it ever was.... lost on the most unbelievable 1 and 2 outers... lost on incredible runner runners.... improbable hand set ups (hand after hand)... I could post the hands history but its just alot more reading than is necessary.. I found myself folding hands that I never would in any live tourney... I was in a $220+ satellite to get into the 1k monday, and there was 3 peeps left... I was in bb w/ ak (suited diamonds).. anyway chip leader pushes in for 6k and I had 3500k ( i folded)... now most of you will say bad play, but..... I have had this scenario over 100 times where i had ak or medium pckt pr against the chip leaders all in (in which i was favored) and ive lost all of them.. its the pattern of ft, favor the big stack.. so i was doing everything i could to avoid going against the big stack especially since i had more chips then the 3rd player... now i just played another 200 buyin satellite and lost to bigger stack after pushing with top pr and big stack holding bottom pr of 3's and then hit his lone 6 on river to beat me with 2 pr... now the skeptics will say thats just poker.. in which i agree it is jsut poker... but its not poker when it happens all the f'in time...

some people and full tilt argue that the software is not rigged, etc.. and that the hands hold true to real poker statisics, but its easy to skew the mass data.. what people need to look at it is the situations of the event.. example... we need to keep track of all ins between bigger stacks and smaller stacks when the small stack has the bigger stack dominated/ or ahead at time of pre-flop or flop... it is my belief that you will see that the bigger stack wins more than usual in these situations... I really wish someone would track these situations... i really believe it will expose full rigged for what it is....

[nitemare6]

congrat billyk

ANy decent-good player has a much better chance playing live poker to not only win once in a while, but to actually enjoy losing -- unlike Full Rigged Tilt' poker site -- where, in the back of your mind (at least for many of us) we fear that we are not being dealt from a truly random deck of cards, and that really good and strategic poker, good position play, knowledge of odds, EV, etc. etc. and many other aspect of good-great poker (not to mention experience) will be nullified by Full Tilt's skewed dealing systems.

[nitemare6]

Also, there is NO doubt that Full Rigged tilt favorts large stacks versus small stacks late in the tournaments. Absolutely no doubt.

[kuelbreeze]

Wow. I've only had 30 minutes to read the posts, eventually if I have a few extra DAYS I might read this entire thread.... lol.

I made my first deposit at Full Tilt (50) about a month or so ago and I've enjoyed it. I made a deposit at Bodog about the same time and have found success at both sites. I love the Omaha Hi at Full Tilt and love the KO tournaments (bounties). With MTT's I'm only about 16% ITM with a small ROI right now, but I'm only playing micro limit buy-in's so I'd like to see the ITM rate a bit higher. 45 player sng's I run much better, as would anyone without such a huge field to fight through.

In the micro levels the action is not near as loose at Full Tilt as compared to Pokerstars and Bodog. Of course often times a loose table is great, but can get extremely frustrating when a loose player is running hot.

I do have to say one thing though. I don't have the time to properly analyze the RNG's at any of these sites. Perhaps if I played for more money I might. But I've seen so many bad beats over the years, when I lose a hand it really doesn't bother me. When someone makes a terrible play on me and hits runner runner, or pairs his kicker after going all in with middle or bottom pair I'm able to roll with it. These things happen all the time-online and at the real felt. Getting my money in with the best of it doesn't mean I'm entitled to that pot.

And no matter what site I play at, I hear it all the time when someone catches their miracle card on the river..."that's Jokerstars/Full Rigged/Bodog..." Yes, that's just poker. We see so many more hands playing online as opposed to playing live that of course we will see that many more bad beats. I might be playing 4 cash tables and 2 tournaments at once, maybe even at 2 different sites. Those that I know who have been successful at these sites don't seem to have these "rigged" issues that i'm not only hearing about here but also at the online tables.

As far as the big stack being favored, don't know about that either. But I know this, the big stack will be making many more crap calls in a tournament because he/she can afford it and has a chance to eliminate opponents with these "crap" calls. So naturally, at any site, we will see a disproportionate rate of scooped pots by the big stack, they are simply taking more chances with a wider range of starting hands.

Though I've played for many years I have not kept track of my sessions until I met and played every day with a 20+ year everyday player in Vegas. This has made a WORLD of difference. It's easier to see when I'm running bad in time to make adjustments, and also when I'm running good. Helps speed up fixing those leaks. And helps to eliminate the denial factor. I might blame a losing streak on bad luck. But when the results are right in front of my face it enables me to hopefully minimize losses and maximize winnings. Isn't that what it's all about?

I see no merit in blaming the software. If these sites are rigged I'll be glad to eat my words. But I've been at a real table and seen a woman get pocket aces 3 times in a row. I've personally gotten pocket Kings 3 times in a row, and gotten Pocket aces and kings back to back to back to back. At real tables. I'd suggest not playing online if the experience is so terrible and traumatic.

[nitemare6]

kuelbreeze

Did u finish 3rd in a 6300 MTT tournament back in May 2009? Well done.

You know, what would change my mind once and for all, would be to meet some players IN PERSON who have played on Full Tilt and elsewhere and can --> show me that they have earned money over the years. Otherwise all I hear is ONLINE internet names/alleged players (who could be working for the poker sites spewing propaganda) say how they make money, or how the site is not fixed.

It's probably true that you and others are real people playing without the benefit of any affiliation with Full Tilt etc., but unless and until I talk to players in person, and they tell me and show me accounts information demosntrating what you so persuasively wrote below, I will remain skeptical.

So I am curious. Have you met in person players from Full Tilt etc. who have made real money playing at these sites? If so, how do you know what they told you is true?

[kuelbreeze]

Yes and Yes.

I've met a few. The most significant I met online at a PL .10/.25 table at Pokerstars. About 2 or 3 months later I was playing at a local card room (1-2 NL) and ran into him, the only reason we ever found out who the other was is someone started talking about internet poker and he mentioned he played at Pokerstars. From our conversation we figured who the other was. His name was Pete (which is also part of his handle online) and he is very humble and unassuming, but a VERY solid player. I knew this playing with him online, and for sure after our 8 hour session together at the real felt.

I like to enjoy myself at the tables, online but especially the real tables. Online will never replace going to the real tables. Love the interaction and good times at the poker tables. I try talking at the online tables but you have to dodge what I call the "flamers" and "trolls" that populate the online tables: i.e., those that are mostly talk, will call anyone who beats them in a hand a donkey, whatever. Many of those, and countless others who are already legends in their own minds and will pretty much tell you so. When I see that someone is from Arizona I always try to chat them up. Or when I'm out of town I like to ask people who are local to find out where the good card rooms are, but so many at the micro level have never set foot in a real card room... But that's about the only way I actually meet anyone who plays online.

I asked Pete privately what his take was a month and he told me, but there is no way for me to verify this unless I asked him to show me on his account but that's silly, in my mind I don't have to because I've seen him play live and online.

Don't know if I answered your question. Honestly I'd suggest getting on there with 10 or 20 bucks (depending on the site, if you haven't already) and give 'er a whirl. All I can really speak about is my own experience, I've got money in 3 different sites only because I learned the hard way about the variance that comes with consistent time at the tables -online and off. I'm even giving juicy bodog a break, I got hit with runner runner quads twice in one day while playing Omaha and took a big hit, really hurt my little bankroll there because it sent me into Full Blown Monkey Tilt and I kept playing for about an hour.

I would show you mine, but I'd rather get a 18-24 months in to give a better picture. I am in the black but as I've said before it's nothing to brag about. This is my online experiment at a bargain price as I see it.

And since you appear to use [URL="http://www.officialpokerrankings.com"]www.officialpokerrankings.com[/URL] or a similar site, as I do, I am kuelbreeze1 at Full Tilt. I just played a tournament last night, got 48th place and 4 bounties. Would have been in good shape chip wise with my all in JJ vs KQ but Q came on river. That's one thing I don't understand, is someone calling off over 75% of their chips to an all in bet with KQ, after hitting nothing on the flop, but it's their chips.....lol. If I were to play it again I might have value bet instead of pushed after the flop because the all in with a $2 bounty attached to it is a bit more enticing than a value bet... But as some would say.... "That's Full Rigged...."

[billytk01]

to kuelbreeze....

hey bro, the more u play online (namely full tilt) you will start to see patterns emerge.... as i said previously... its easy for a site like full tilt to show statistics that the cards are being dealt according to real world perentages... but you have to look very closely at specific instances such as... when a smaller stack is all in vs a larger stack.. what the % is pre-flop or post flop and at what point in the tourney is the allin... if its early it seems like the smaller stack when leading or dominant the hand holds up but when its late in the tourney its the opposite the big stack seems to consitantly suck out...

this is what brings me to my next point... how is that these weekly tourneys (750k sunday) starts and ends always roughly at the same time no matter how many players are registered.... its improbable that this can happen consistantly.... but it does....

the tourney that I won (chopped at final table/ i was 2nd in chips) at the borgata in atlantic city was a 2 day deep stack tourney but it lasted almost 3 days..... I played in another 3 day deep stack tourney and it was done in 2 1/2.. real tourneys have real time variances which seems to be missing in online tourneys... too conveinant/peculiar that they start and stop roughly at the same time consistantly...

like i said these are just a few examples of patterns, etc.....

i now have closed my account at full tilt for good. and play exclusively at poker stars.....

[billytk01]

ps... even poker stars is getting tiresome for me as well... no matter how tight i play, no matter what hand im holding, i get sucked out on way too much... its just the nature of online poker with full rigged and joker stars... kk on jokerstars = death... on jokerstars, in the last 12 hands that i have had with kk... 6 times all in preflop against lower pckt prs in which the set was hit, 2 times all in pre flop against ak and ace hits.. 4 times all in pre flop against ace rag and ace was hit.... this is the last 12 times in a row.. is this even possible (i mean it is possible but ridiculously improbable)...

it is so amazing, if you slow play a big hand you get consistantly crushed, if you push with big hand you get sucked out on, i never know where i am in any hand... its amazing how many rainbow, harmless boards that i hit hard and lose to runner runner... nothing is safe... the online sites are catering to the fish and luck box players... look at all the peeps that make final tables on the big sunday tourneys and what donks they are.. there roi's are usually always negative... its such a joke....

oh by the way.... just lost w/ kk vs qq on jokerstars all in preflop.... i was joking with my wife that i should just fold and she convinced me not to... hilarious, just hilarious.....

[kuelbreeze]

I hear you billy. I understand your KK frustration. One week I lost with kings all 6 times I got them, online and at the real felt. There were a few which I played too hard, but others which had similar outcomes as yours.

I had to step back and really look at how I played them pre-flop and post flop. The only mistake might have been in a tournament with a 10-7-4 board and a very solid player went all-in I called even with SET! SET! SET! in my head. Of course he had 4-4. Bad call. The other 5 I won't mention, too much pain......

As far as what you mentioned about big stack vs short stack...When I play dailies/weeklies/monthlies etc., I'll keep it in mind and pay attention. Right now at the micro level so many of the tournaments vary in field size. I do love the KO tournaments....I'll pay more attention to the big stack at each table I'm at.

But I've got to be honest, I am short stacked quite often once we get to ITM. I've been able to pick my spots. Many times I'll pick a spot that gives the most value if I'm under 10BB, no matter the cards. Instead of pushing on that ok, marginal hand, or hoping that I wake up with a monster (only to get felted by an inferior hand) before the BB hits me again, I'll pick a spot -if the opportunity comes up- when there are far too many in the hand. Of course these spots don't always materialize but if they do, if there is a raise, a call, a re-raise, call...when it gets to me its auto push. Getting at least 4-1, maybe more, at that stage of the tourny it's a no brainer. Like the 9-2 the other day. So perhaps subconsciously I'm avoiding the heads up with a bigger stack, but really I'm trying to find the most profitable situation. I'm either in great shape for the rest of the tourney of I'm done, but if I wait for another 10-20 hands maybe I move up the pay ladder a few more spots just to be felted heads up in a 2-1 situation.

[jacktors]

Why would anyone want to play with pros or a high percentage of good players for real money. It like you all are star struck. Im always searching for the worst players. If you want to make money Bodog is the site to be on. All those dummy sports betters get on there and get the game out of the muck fast.

[buck22]

One reason most internet players get caned .5/1 and above is cos they read supersystem and harrington, then play cabbages every day. Nothing wrong with that, table selection is very inportant in making money, but so is experience. I have a moto that I never turn down a challenge, simply because if Im better, i win money, if im worse, I learn why. The only way to improve your game and your concepts within the game is to play people better than you.

Players sit at my table, play 10 hands of weak poker then leave. They are weak BECAUSE they leave. Everynow and then it's important to play out your depth slighlty, cos if you dont , the inexperience will kick your ass, players are getting better all the time.

Full tilt has got plenty of donkeys, jus need to sniff em out, wicked site, if only the bastards would give me rake back id be there in a flash. Stars still rules!