ONLINE POKER - SITE - Full Tilt

[billytk01]

dont even bother trying to play at joker stars..... once your short stacked you are a dog no matter what you are holding to the bigger stacks on all ins in middle to late of the tourney..... so far im 0 for 21 with qq and kk vs any hand (havent run into aa)but i have lost to ak 7 times now... most recently qq vs ak and of course the case ace on river as usual... pstars is a joke....

I really wish there was more options for internet poker cuz jokerstars and full rigged are so f'n corrupt.....

[Ant8472]

I used to post here a while ago because of the extreme frustration and dissilusionment I felt playing at FT. I came to realise that ranting about it might help me vent some frustration in the short term but the only way around the problem was to vary the sites I play on and try and get onto the real felt as often as possible. Real cards cannot be rigged.

Anyway, about 2 weeks ago I came 8th in a $35,000 guarantee winning $735. I was very happy and for a short time it seemed all my luck on FT was changing. I was getting good cards and my good hands were holding up most of the time.

Some time after cashing in this tournament it all turned around and I started getting the extreme, constant horrific bad runs I was getting for months before.

As an example, just in this last week i've played about 25 multi table SNGs. Here is a description of the kind of luck I've been having.

I've had AA about 7 times and it has lost 5 times. Two of those times it was on a final table and in one hand an opponent had AQ (8% against AA). I've KK about 6 times and have lost with it 5 times.

Today I played in 8 games and was eliminated by a river card in about 6 of those games. Now here is the really strange phenomenon thats been happening lately. I've been getting beaten by runner runner straights regularly and I mean regularly. I've lost to a runner runner straight or a straight from a pre flop all in about a dozen times in about 20 tournaments I've played. Most of these were gut shots too! Now if I was also catching miracle straights as well I would think everything is right in the world but I haven't and I have caught up from behind in a hand only once in the last two weeks.

I have literally had about 10 bad beats just today and was eliminated from 6 of the 8 tourneys I played just today.

So I ask, WTF is going on with Full Tilt? I used to think it was my game and that maybe there was some critical I didn't understand about poker. Maybe the cards are meant to behave that way. But my game has improved exponentially in recent months and I now know I am not imagining this. The cards are unrealistic at FT. I used to be an advocate for theories of rigging and used to make my case on many sites on the net.

With the sort of luck I've been getting lately I think I am going to get back on that wagon.

[buck22]

I reckon there's a few rational reasons for your seemingly bad luck Ant8472, but don't blame you for thinking it's rigged, poker is f***ed!
1) Fulltilt and stars are renound 'tough' sites to play at, you may have an edge , but it will be alot less than playing on donkey sites.
2) You play multi-table tournys, variance is huge as you are essentially up against 100's of players in a game of small edges
3) It's gambling, anything CAN happen, I recently had a 2 month bad run where I lost $3900 probably over about 50,000 hands, I read that it is possible to run bad for 6 months so how ever bad ur lucks been so far, theres even bigger tidal waves to come! Get used to it.
4) Your style of play dictates how much variance is in your game. Playing a negreanu-style small ball where you're rarely all-in will help you survive better (which is better for tournys) but you will be sacrificing equity, whereas a Tom Dwan loose style has extremely good runs accompanied by terrible bad runs. Maybe you need to work at controlling pot sizes so you're not risking tournament life in marginal situations.
5)Poker is a game designed for players to lose, maybe your game needs a little more improvement so that your winnings cover these epic downswings in the long run. Hard to admit, but ill bet you anything that in a year, you'll look back and say 'wow, i really didnt have a clue'.




There's a misconception in the game that you can't lose for more than a few days or weeks but oh you can.

[chronicace22]

IN my experience ABSOLUTE/ULTIMATE BET, POKER STARS, AND FULL TILT ARE ALL RIGGED SITES!! WHATS my next step someone please tell me where to play now, on these sites listed above the worst hand wins a mojority of thetime, and i get the same cards over and over

[chronicace22]

POKER ONLINES SO RIGGED, And ive won big tornys befor on these sites listed above with practically no hands , but there always!!!! always comes a point the next day when the cards i get are rigged!!! i get ten four 5 itmes in a row followed by 27 twice followed by poc 10 three times!!!! - this is just one war story , and all these hands hit nothing , i know its rigged people , where do i play now??? cake network???? bodog?? i just dont know

[buck22]

The sites you've named are among the toughest sites in the world to grind a profit at. In poker 90% of players lose anyway. Now, ask yourself again if you really think it's rigged or maybe there's another reason.

Poker is a game of small edges battling the rake and increasingly better players, which means profit varies considerably, within a few thousand hands ANYTHING can happen, over 100,000 hands you will get a truer value for your equity in the game, be it positive or negative.

The most worrying part is to come though, 'you haven't seen sh** yet'. Running bad for a week every now and again happens, but you haven't had an oober downswing yet have you? I grinded $10-$8400 over the last 8 months and have just watched $4500 of it evapourate, A 3 MONTH DOWNSWING!!! AND ITS STILL NOT OVER!!!! Apparently, theres a gambling book that says it's possible to run bad for 6 months!!

'Random' does exactly what it says on the tin, it'll soar your bankroll at an alarming rate. and it can screw you for every penny, this happens live and online, if you said 'ive played for 6 years and had a steady monthly wage' then i'd say it was rigged,cos it just doesn't work like that.

A pro once said you're not a true poker player until you've experienced the worst, 6 month wammy of downswing, and I believe it, as soon as you realise the true nature of the beast and the volitility of poker, you can't hope to be playing your best game at the felt.

FullTilt aren't dumb enough to have one over on their own pro's, all live players too, they wonj't be fooled when they take millions of dollars to the table. So ask ICALLSOWHAT, GUS HANSEN, KAIBUXXE, BRIAN TOWNSEND, TOM DWAN etc if they think it's rigged, cos theyve had bigger downswings than you'll ever see in your life.

Bottom line, you're either not getting a big enough edge on the game to break the rake, or your on a downswing and need to ride it out. Telling yourself these sites are rigged won't help you improve in the game, keep an open mind about how you play. Good luck all

[billytk01]

to buck22.... this response is in no way hostile or to be taken in any bad way...

It just seems to be that you are not seeing the true nature of online poker... everything that you speak of (ie... the downswings, grinding, 90% of poker players are losing players, etc...) are all pretty much true when it comes to "live" poker, but I tend to digress when you say it applies to online poker aswell..... I too have seen so many patterns that are present in online play (ie... incredible, constant and inevitable suckouts by bigger stacks late in tourneys against the all in smaller stacks, constant and consistant runs of dealt cards in hole (ie.. being dealt 10's five times in a row followed by 2-? three times in a row, followed by ??? you get the idea).... as I have stated many times before in previous threads that its easy for poker sites to skew the mass data into make people think that the odds/implied odds of hands are true to live poker standards/percentages but in order to get a true idea of whats really going on is you have to look at specific instances/situations (ie....such as all ins by a short stack against a big stack, how many times a flopped draw [either flush or straight] hits against a pckt pr or over pr, etc, etc......) In my personal experience, I have won over 200k on full tilt in 2008, but as soon as i cashed out it was all down hill from... losing on you name it impossible scenarios... It got to the point whenever i got dealt big pckt prs such as AA or KK I felt i was being set up and usually i was right losing to weak 2 prs, etc.... (even if i bet big pre-flop it didnt matter cuz the fish were rewarded..) oh heres another thing i love about online poker... why is that whenever I flop a set is it always in the middle of a straight or flush draw... Im serious when I say this.. about 90% of the time i flop a set in the middle of a draw... its hilarious.... anyway I have since closed my full tilt account for good (I sent ft a very nasty email) and now I have been playing on pokerstars (ie... jokerstars is what it should be called) and it is just as bad if not worse then FT... right now I am 0 for 17 with kk on jokerstars in all ins or calling another players all in... again just last night playing another tourney on jokerstars I had kk late in a tourney ( i had about 6k in chips... under the gun raised to 2k, i pushed all in for 6k, everyone else folds.. utg calls and shows 66... i told my wife watch this, i said he will flop a set or hit on river.. sure enough 6 on river.... I just laughed at the garbage... anyway... I am done with online poker for good until the US legalizes and regulates it within the states... oh well, enough ranting...

PS.... I am heading down to the borgata in atlantic city on saturday 9/18... I am playing in the World Poker Tour at borgata in sundays field... 3,500k buy in.... so keepin fingers crossed that run pretty good.... Wish me luck guys...

[LukeS]

This is my theory of on line poker sites. I have played from party poker days to full tilt now and belive that all these sites are rigged in a manner that favors the new or small time player. If you are a regular player that plays for entertainment that can afford, say $500.00 to $2000.00 each month, chances are you will never get ahead. Why, because these sites love guys like you that keep coming back every day. Say they know a certain individual usually loses $200.00 and doesn't come back for a month, versus some who can afford much more, who do you think they want to see wins? The $200.00 guy of course,
because if all these guys get knocked out there's
no more game and guess what, no more rake. I play alot of sng tournaments and constantly see all-ins
that the worst hand wins. There is no way King Jack can dominate Ace Ten 8 out of ten times, but sure enough it does. I also play alot of omaha hi and constantly see someone holding AA raising pre flop getting called with whatever, and guess what the flop will be. Chances are the whatever hit 2 pair and the AA has a flush draw, so it becomes an all-in situation. These flops happen to generate action at the tables. But the bottom line to me still is, if your a regular player willing to lose a decent amount every month, you will lose to a new or smaller player. They need to keep these players in the game or no more rake for them. I've played on this site now for 3 years and i'll green note all players who sucked out on me with stupid draws; guess what 2 weeks later you'll never see them playing again, because yes in time they will lose due to their bad play, but they got your money which is what these sites want knwoing you'll keep coming back.

[buck22]

Just a thought, but everyone who posts on this thread hasn't found it by googling 'Full Tilt forums' or 'Full tilt opinions', they've typed 'Full Tilt rigged' so surprise surprise, you get a group of players that all have had a serious downswing. The stats you are grouping ,whatodds, are extremely biased. As opposed to taking random samples of players stats, you are taking random samples of just LOSING players stats.

I am in the eye of the most epic downswing I hope I will ever encounter, 3 months and down around 40-50 buyins. I have played my best poker and had my money in great but variance is kicking my arse. This bad run has followed me through 4 sites. they can't all be rigged. and the funny thing is the only place I made money was 4000 hands I played on Fulltilt. This bullsh** is on every site.

Maybe they're rigged, maybe not. But you have to ask yourself. With all the stats software available, more professionals playing than ever before, all the customers they have, all the money they make anyway, WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY RIG IT? One thing I know is either none of them are rigged or ALL of them are rigged, occam's razor, which do you really think it is?

[billytk01]

buck 22 said.... "But you have to ask yourself. With all the stats software available, more professionals playing than ever before, all the customers they have, all the money they make anyway, WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY RIG IT?"

first, What professionals do you speak of? I very rarely, and I mean rarely if ever see any of the big name players such as hansen, negraneu, ivey, matusow, raymer, ferguson, greenstein, etc... playing online unless its a big sponsored buy-in tourney on stars or tilt in which they are obligated to play... the only pros "i guess you would call'em pros's, i use the term loosely" that i see online are the regular online players such as elky, dwan, etc...

Second, you ask the question why would the online poker sites rig anything with all the customers and traffic that they currently have...???? the reason is simple my friend... GREED!!!! and the fact that there is no where else to play at the moment that is safely regulated.... Until the United States govt decides to legalize online poker (gambling) and actively fairly regulate these sites then we will continue to be at the mercy of whatever these unregulated sites want to do... think of it this way... lets say you win a huge tourney on stars for lets say 200k, and then stars decides to open up a random and unwarranted investigation based on whatever they want to make up and then decide against giving you the money... guess what? you have no recourse... nothing you can do, no one you can contact... these are the people that we are dealing... now im not saying that this is something they will do, but they could do it and theres absolutely nothing you can do about it....

PS..... I didnt have much luck at the World poker tour in atlantic city at the borgata... I was virtually card dead from the start until my demise in the 7th level of day 1.... anytime i did pick up a hand such as AK or AQ it was a total airball on the flop for me, just as well as anytime I held a middle pocket pair the board would hit with all over cards.... anyway I finally busted out in the 7th level with A10s... called 1+ utg raise (3x bb) with my aforementioned A10s, and the flop came 10h 4s 7s... Utg bet 2k, I raised all in for last 13k, Utg tanked for about 3min and called... UTG tabled QhQd... no help on turn or river and I was gone.... I left the tourney with a disgusted feeling cuz i never felt i got to play at all.. I felt like a starting qb who never got to throw a pass and just took a bunch of sacks... i mean i was so card dead that i could not make any moves whatsoever.... oh well....

[eldave1]

haven't posted in a while - see the argument rages on - I am still on Billy's side of the issue. If you looked at the overall stats - they hold up (e.g., your KK will win 75% of the time - BUT - that includes all the times you had no caller for your KK - if you look at showdowns - ugh!!)

I ignore the overall stats and simply look at all in show downs - for me this is a fact - MOST OF THE TIME more then 50%) WHEN I GET MY MONEY IN AS THE FAVORITE - I DO NOT WIN. If I add in the 'WTF hands" it is even worse. For example, I have AK and raise 4 times the BB preflop. I get one caller and the flop comes A-K-7. I raise and get called. Turn comes 7 and the guy shoves - I call and he shows 7-4 off suit. Sure I was the dog at all in - but -no way the fella should have been in the hand - no way I could fold. That happens a lot. They are the type of players you hope for live and dread on-line.

There are a lot of other things you see on-line that are inexplicable versus the live game (e.g., how many times a flop hits three or more players. If I had a nickel for every flop that gave player 1 a straight, player 2 a set, player 3 top two pair and player 4 a flush draw I would be a very rich man. As you already know, the flush draw wins.

More and more live players I know are leaving on-line altogether based on their belief that it is rigged - folks who love poker leaving the sites - antecdotal I know, but I think it is telling.

Lastly - even if it is random (which I think not) - I hate the RNG at FT because - as they state themselves, card distribution is influenced by mouseclicks, how long a player takes to act, etc. That means you can never tell when you fold whether you would have hit the flop or not (i.e., because your fold action changes the card dist) - makes it less enjoyable for me

Anyway - my three cents

[buck22]

Tracking software any player can buy for $80 tracks stats such as 'All-in EV', so why the hell would any site rig all in situations when any player has the ability to collect stats on it? Data-mining sites with billions of hands tracked, do you really believe Fulltilt, a multi-billion dollar company would rig their software AND over-look the fact every hand on their site is tracked by millions of webpage businesses and players? Do you think maybe after billions of hands being tracked they would have been caught by now by people far smarter than all of us put together? It would be like walking into the royal mint, and walking out the front door with a wheel barrow full of cash! They would never get away with it! And sacrifice a business growing by the day!! Do you see where im coming from? AM I GETTING THROUGH TO YOU AT ALL?

Eldave, for the love of god PLAY CASH GAMES!! The turn will be a 7 1/13 times so get a stack that you can make a read and muck your hand when it's dead in the water. Playing by the book doesn't make it the right play, 'was it the right play for the situation?' is what you need to be asking, could you keep the pot smaller or even fold when a scary turn comes?

Create a thread ' Discussion on hands and strategy' cos you're barking up the wrong tree when you blame rigged sites.

When you play in tournys with 1000's of people in, and you play well, 99% of them you will get a hurendous bad beat, because....drum roll...........Other wise youd win $10000s every game, the flip side of winning $25,000 being is bad beat out of the tourny. Play cash and SNG's and you bankroll will have less variance.

Now before anyone puts in the next post, just glance through all my posts and ask yourself 'Can you find a post by me that doesn't give a rational reason for what has happened in your game?'

[eldave1]

You write:

"Tracking software any player can buy for $80 tracks stats such as 'All-in EV', so why the hell would any site rig all in situations when any player has the ability to collect stats on it? Data-mining sites with billions of hands tracked.."

No shit sherlock - I use Poker Tracker now and used Hold em manager before that. So, my data for my hands comes from that. NOW - sit down for a moment and take a breath - there are not "billions" of hands out there for data mining - that is a falsehood on your part. A player only has access to his hands. The sites keep the hands to themselves. None of them release them. So - you are just wrong.

You write:

"They would never get away with it! And sacrifice a business growing by the day!! Do you see where im coming from? AM I GETTING THROUGH TO YOU AT
ALL?..."

No - your not. I guess you're not familiar with any firms that have risked an otherwise successful business by using shenigans - guess you don't remember Worldcom, Enron, etc, etc. It has happened time and time again. The what incentive do they have argument is tiresome. History is full of firms who cheated to make an extra buck and as a result brought their entire company down.

You write:

"Eldave, for the love of god PLAY CASH GAMES!"

WTF makes you think you have any clue on the types of games I play. So you don't have to guess, I play MTTS, SNGs and yes - CASH. I also play live five or six times a week at one of the many casinos here in the LA area. I pretty much play full time (about 60 hours worth a week) and am quite profitable in live play. So please - spare me the amateurish advice.

You write:

"Now before anyone puts in the next post, just glance through all my posts and ask yourself 'Can you find a post by me that doesn't give a rational reason for what has happened in your game?'"

First - yes I can find them. Second, don't twist your ankle falling off your pedastal. Here is the reality - DRUM ROLL...there are experienced, knowledgable poker players that beleive on-line is rigged - we really are not waiting for you to come down from the mount and deliver us the wisdom of the game. Change you tone and I'll have a reasoned discussion with you - if you're just going to be an arrogant ass - don't bother

[buck22]

so you win more coin flips to balance out 2to1 draws? so theres players losing more coinflips than they should, but hit more 2to1 than they should? They must have to group there players to win/lose certain hands or poker is a volitile game and a longterm player is gonna go through patches of weird swings.

Problem i have is players say this about all the sites, sites I win on, but occasionally experience wild swings and bullsh*t variance. IT DOESN'T SEEM POSSIBLE TO BE BAD BEAT 6 TIMES IN A ROW!!! but considering ive played 6-7 years, seeing around a million hands, what can't happen?

You've had downswings obviously, but ive just come out of a 60 buyin downswing! I lost $4k in 3 months, complete bullsh*t. But ask a mathmetician if this can happen some point in a million hands and he'll probably tell you it's likely.

It is far more likely that you need to either improve your game OR change your mind-set of the game. Gambling books say a player can run bad for 6 MONTHS!! I guaruntee that your bad luck is a molehill compared to this, so accept bad beats and cold-decks happen whenever and for how ever long they bleedin like.

[eldave1]

Dead on what odds

[eldave1]

I would add that you do not often see the crap cards and sick calls in live play because those players have learned that you do no get paid off in the long haul when that is your game - i.e., they experience losing and therefore change to become better players. There is no such disincentive in online because the way the card hit tell you to play the crap

[buck22]

Realised in past few days that the rate at which you see hands can really warp your view on odds. Ive been multi-tabling last few days, and the bad beats and cold decks are hurrendous, both ways. Play 8 tables and you'll vomit every 5 minutes. Compared to playing one online table, it can seem like youre the unluckiest guy7 in the world one session and the luckiest the next. Considering around 35 hands/hr get dealt live to 100-150/hr online, its not that different between the gap of 1 online table and online multi-tabling. Yet difference in feeling the game when it comes to outdraws is huge! Anyway, fulltilt is the toughest site on the net, and I don't think you give enough respect to the fact that stupid calls (for stupid reasons) can actually be a better EV than folding. I've noticed that due to the loose nature of online players, idiots can actually walk into making a not so bad play. With these loose players, the variance is much higher than a table of good players.

Anyway no-ones coming forward with these rigged stats, noone ever will (personally i think its because they are fictional) So why are you still playing at Fulltilt when Americans can play on pokerstars, and it's much better anyway? Please tell me why u are still there

[eldave1]

Buck writes:

"Anyway, fulltilt is the toughest site on the net, and I don't think you give enough respect to the fact that stupid calls (for stupid reasons) can actually be a better EV than folding. I've noticed that due to the loose nature of online players, idiots can actually walk into making a not so bad play. With these loose players, the variance is much higher than a table of good players."

First - Stupid calls for stupid reasons can never be positive EV - that is unless the site is rigged. I guarentee you will never hear a live player say - ya know - I think I'll make some stupid calls for stupid reasons. This may be the worst argument I have heard.

Buck writes:

So why are you still playing at Fulltilt when Americans can play on pokerstars, and it's much better anyway? Please tell me why u are still there

First - I don't think Joker Stars is any better then FT. I think they're both juiced. There are two reasons why I play on-line:

1. I make my money live - there has been a wave of players into the live games and it is essential to be able to recognize these players (for example, someone doesn't fold a flush draw when they obviously were not given the right price to call, when they shove their $5,000 stack with only $150 in the pot, etc. etc. = online player. So - I play online to keep in touch with the online style - they are the easiest players to trap in live games - just got to be patient - and you'll stack them.

2. To keep track of betting patterns. One thing about on-line is that you need to develop skills to track betting patterns as there are no other real tells. I do not use software when I am playing on-line for that very reason - I want to exercise the mental discipline to remember seat three has raised three straight times on the cutoff, etc. This exercise has translated well to my live play.

That's it

[buck22]

See this is where the arguement falls apart for me, apparently 'jokerstars' is rigged aswell. I play 3600 hands a day on this site, there's sh!* loads of bad beats but I still win over a given time. You gonna tell me they rig it so certain area codes win now? Yeah,sh** happens and can last ages, i got old posts lying around here somewhere swearing stars is rigged, but months down the line you realise it's a ridiculous concept, and that your money comes back with interest.

What-odds, you ever multi-table? As an experiment just try this. Any stake, open up 8 SNG's and play 4 hours a day of this. You guys aint seen shit till you try this. It literally seems like every AA and KK gets cracked, evry trips hits a runner runner beat, it's fekin brutal. I've been up against this all week, but after finishing a session Im 90% of the time up.
Im also gonna play the 'bullshit' card with this 'FullTilt sued for house bots', don't you think this case wouldas rattled round the poker community a bit? It'll be pokernews headline when that happens, i plain don't belive Fulltilt are on trial for house bots.

Yeah you get better hands more often online to balance out the crap, but who takes note of their flush draw coming in, or 2pairing up on the turn, that goes straight to the back of your mind. But get your trips beaten by runner runner straight and your pasting conspiracy theories over the net. Also how much of a crap FTP rep would I be coming on here and claiming the best poker site is pokerstars? Think about it whatodds!

Ive had an epic $4k downswing last 3 months but have made alot of money in last 9 months playing at stars, why the hell would they favour me above you? Where's the gain for them?

Now I don't play on FT, cant get rakeback+THE PLAYERS ARE TOUGHER! But my experince on pokerstars is that it's legit, so there's no doubt in my mind that if you can't grind a profit on pokerstars, you are doing something wrong! Be it table selection, game selection, leaks in your game, or you plain just aren't beating the rake. But keep telling yourself it's rigged, that'll improve your profit.

[eldave1]

First - the full tilt case - what is happening is FT took two players $$ for being BOTS - the players are counter suing alleging that FT employs the use of house BOTs. The case hit the wires today. Here is an article extract:
==============================================
"Full Tilt sued for seizing funds in alleged bot case

Is it just me, or has poker gone completely lawsuit-crazy this year? There’s another poker case on the docket in Los Angeles County Superior Court, this time alleging that Full Tilt Poker unfairly seized more than $80,000 in winnings from players Lary Kennedy and Greg Omotoy.

Full Tilt says the two players had their funds taken because they used bots in violation of the site’s terms of service, and that determination was made by consulting a third party expert. The players, meanwhile, claim in their lawsuit that Full Tilt itself uses bots itself to manipulate the outcome of hands played on the site. The actual documents in the case haven’t been released yet so it’s impossible at this point to make a determination of what to believe based on any sort of evidence, but there will almost certainly be more information on the way in the near future.

Full Tilt has had a rough go in the legal realm lately; this is the third lawsuit that the popular online room is currently facing, including others from former employee J.D. Newitt and former Team Full Tilt member Clonie Gowen."
===============================================

Now - this will be interesting - hopefully, if FT is legit they will not settle this case since now they have folks claiming in legal papers that they use BOTS. Who knows, maybe even HHs will be made available. HOWEVER, FT needs to use this case to demonstrate that they are legit - think about it - they could end up with a court decision saying the evidence = they are legit. If the settle out of court, I will be very disappointed. We'll see.

In terms of Joker Stars - not sure why that is where the arguement falls apart for you. But whatever. What you need to realize Buck is that not all of our experiences and data are the same. If your data shows that you are getting a legit deal - mue bueno. BUT - that doesn't mean that's what mine of WHAT ODDS data shows. Like WHAT ODDS - over a long period of time, my data - FOR MY HANDS - do not reflect statistically valid results. If it is just my hands - cool - guess
sooner or later the data will change - but don't tell me what my data is. I have scoured it back and forth. AND - I do know exactly!!!!! when I hit flush draws, when they're hit against me etc. As an example, for all my hands (where I went to showdown), my opponents hit a flush 35% of the time - overall. HOWEVER - if more than half my stack is at risk, they hit 56% - that is what I see - good for you that your results are different

[buck22]

Wow, l take back my bull-sh** card, someone IS taking FT to court over house-bots allegations, really hope it isn't true for the sake of online poker, 2 guys are taking FT to court because $80k was taken out their account when it was discovered they had used poker-bots, one question, why would 2 guys who could prove FT was rigged wait until now to uncover it, proving a major online site is rigged must be worth millions in settlement, let alone other royalties. Because of this it does look a bit like a retaliation bid.

You are right what-odds, i dont play fulltilt much, only got about 8000 hands logged there, so I can't comment. However, eldave1 is claiming pokerstars is as rigged as fulltilt, you can see why im sceptical when I can hand on heart stars is legit.

[eldave1]

Buck - all I said was that my experience at Poker Stars was the same - I have had FAR less play time there - so, if you and WHAT both beleive that it is legit - I'll concede to that and give it another whirl. HOWEVER - remember that this started with FT is rigged - that is the issue you were arguing and - at least for me - have not seen anything to convince me otherwise.

Now, I think the industry is about to face that moment of truth ala this lawsuit. If FT goes through with this - shows their data - wins the case - I would have to rethink my position. If they lose or settle out of court - that'll be the death nail for me. Also - if the settle, look for the suits against every other major site - whether they are true or not. This will be a very, very interesting case.

[billytk01]

Wow this discussion has really picked up since i last posted... but my 2 cents is this... jokerstars and full rigged are equally rigged online sites....

Now I admit I do not track my stats with software but I do however save all my hh and I actually copy/paste peculiar/bad beat hands to a bad beat folder for personal reference... alll I can say is that after my successful run on full rigged for 2 months back in '08 when i cleared over 200k in tourney winnings, I cashed out and never recovered.... the card patterns changed and the bad beats were unbelievable... I ran like this for over 9 months until I finally closed my account for good..... Now, on joker stars... the last 8 tourneys I have played I have flopped top pair with top kicker only to lose on set on river... this is 8 times in a row now... what are the odds of that... Its to the point where its almost automatic now, I never know where i am in a hand... anyway, Im taking a 6 month break from online now... Im just waiting for the new online site real deal poker to come online and maybe ill check that out or hopefully just hopefully the US will finally legalize online poker and we wont have to worry about these rigged sites again....

but something to think about... remember how everyone was saying and defending online poker saying that why would they rig it, why would they risk losing players... just look at UB, AP and now possibly FT.. nothing suprises me....

[buck22]

Posts like Billys only secure my belief online ISN´T rigged. Clearing $200k in a year playing piss-ant stakes then claiming it´s rigged when the same doesn´t happen in 9 months. Do you realise how freakin lucky you were to clear $200k in one year? You think professionals would multi-table 5/10 risking $1000´s a day if they could clear $200k a year playing $20-$100 buy in tourny´s. The vast majority of these posts are based on complete ignorance on how much you are meant to win in the real world of poker.

Billy the chance of getting sucked out on pkt pair vs tp is around 9%, 8 times in a row the chance is 214,358,881 to 1, you seriously expect anyone to believe you? You are either lying or you are the unluckiest sod that ever lived and if i were you i wouldnt leave the house incase i got hit by a bus, plane and fuel tanker simultaneously.

Once again Stars is brought into question, numerous posts on here that stars is legit and yet still rigged posts flood in. STARS IS NOT RIGGED, I PLAY THERE 3,500 HANDS A DAY AND STATS ARE COSURE!

Ultimate bet and Absolute poker are the same network so you´re making it sound like these were 2 separate incidents. UB and AP did not rig there software in any way, 2 ex-employees hacked into the system having super user accounts, nothing to do with the RNG whatsoever! Granted, that was a serious lapse in security. People have had money removed from bank accounts by hackers, doesn´t mean the banks are in on it. Pokerstars and Fulltilt have great security and realistically the only security threat is pokerbots and colluders, not rigged RNG´s.

The more idiotic posts on here I read, the more I am so sure of the safety of these sites.

[billytk01]

to buck 22....

and posts like yours only make me and everyone else believe that your a shrill for full rigged or joker stars.....

the easiest thing i could do is post my hh on the last 8 bust outs on joker stars where i was rivered by sets against top prs but what will that prove since anyone can change the text on the hh..... so whether you believe or not I could care f'n less..... in fact no matter what info is posted you will try to rebuke/refute the info cuz you are infact a shrill for some online site or you just have no understanding of the differences from live poker to online poker... I bet you prolly have never stepped in a casino/live poker room and online poker is all you know... do you know how many guys that i have played against that finally come to a live game after only playing online poker all their lives and they get stacked right away cuz they are making loose plays, out of position calls/raises and they leave the table wondering why the 3 outer gutshot that they always hit online doesnt hit in a live deck... its comical... I think you are one of those guys.. you really believe that online plays like real poker.. that is comical...

Anyway, as far as expecting to continue to win hundreds of thousands of dollars playing the sunday $200 + buy in online tourneys is unrealistic, yes.... but i never claimed i should be winning all those tourneys... i dont know where you get that idea from... do ya think i luck boxed my way into the big money??? hardly... I play just solid abc poker and it works.. anyway, my argument is that when i cashed out from full rigged the cash out curse hit and it hit hard in which i never recovered... its one thing to hit downsings for a significant amount of time in which you claim happens all the time (and i agree) but its another when the downswing, badbeats, etc.. is expected and continues to play out in unbelievable ways... i have no problem losing, i have no problem with bad beats, but when you see patterns emerging, peculiar hands/calls/raises, same ridiulous scenarios week in and week out it just makes you scratch your head in amazement...

fyi... Im also am/was a part time online player, the only thing that attracted me to online poker was the equity in the Sunday tourneys and some of the bigger buy in tourneys, I mean where else can you buyin for $200 and walk away with 100 or 200k in 8-9 hrs of work.. anyway, I am more of a big buyin live player.. I live just an hour outside of Atlantic City and about 1 1/2 hrs outside of foxwoods/mohegan sun so i play in just about every big buy in tourney usually more so at Borgata in Atlantic City... So far this year I have played in 8 big buy in tourneys ranging from $500 to $3600 (including wpt) I have cashed in 4 (3 big cashes and 1 small cash/ winning one of the events in the summer poker open at borgata)... so i know what the realistic expectations are and when you compare the cards that are dealt and play of live action to online there is clearly a disparaging difference.. but again buck i could really care less of what you think cuz your agenda is pretty clearly apparant...

[eldave1]

Per Buck - When a losing player says it is rigged it is because they are a loser. When a winning player says it is rigged it is bogus because no way they could say it was rigged if they won. So -I guess the only valid opinions for Buck are those who break exactly even.

I won $2,000 last night and $1,200 today. AND - I still think it is juiced. I saw more horrendous beats in a half hour then I see in a week at a casino.

One way I won - and this is a shame - I folded every pair of pocket kings I had PRELOP. I have a 47% win rate and a killer negative ROI with the second best hand in poker online - so, I just started tossing them like they were 2-3 off.

Sure as shit - in a tourney this morning I decide to play them - UTG raises - I re-raise - he calls - flop is 9-7-2 rainbow - he checks - I shove all in - he got 9-8 (yep - he call a huge preflop raise with 9-8 off), turn = 2 - I am golden - sure as shit hits his two outer 9 on river. So - KK in the trash every time now - when I get them live - chaaaaa-ching!!!! On-line - I get stacked.

The worst scenarios where the odds are skewed on FT is when you hit top pair top kicker. This is how the hand always plays out. You got K-Q or something like that and bet preflop - you get a caller - flop comes Q - 6- 2 with two hearts. Player checks. You bet and they shove all in right back at ya. You think if he had the A-Q - he would have bet to protect from the flush draw. Would he shove all on a draw?

You call and he shows q-8 of clubs and the 8 hits the turn before you can get the "wtf are you doing out of your mouth."

This hand happens to me so many times it is frightening - 1) they should have not called preflop (2) they should have not checked their Q on the flop cause they needed to see where they were in the hand (3) they shouldn't have shoved over a raise with a Q and a shit kicker and (4) they of course win.

AGAIN - you see this play on-line because it is perversely rewarded. You don't see it live because it is appropriately punished and those who play that bad either go broke or they change their ways.

[buck22]

If I could count the number of 3-outers on one hand that ive had this week, I´d be married to Pamela Anderson. Seriously, for f$$$ sake when are you bingo-jockies gonna wake up and realise poker not only doesn´t owe you a living, but is not gonna favour you over 5000 entrants cos you picked up top pair!!! Ive got AK! Ive got AK! and an ace flopped!! SO FEKIN WHAT??!!! You survived a flush/straight/underpair/overpair draw last time what the f$$$ makes you think you should dodge it this time. Eldave it´s been 5 days since your last post and all you got is a measly 3-outer? Within the laws of mathmatics you should (and im sure you did) get far more nasty beats in this time!


I play around 800 hands/hour, getting my money in mostly with positive equity(i hope), but im not counting the times i win or lose every sesssion, it would drive me insane! I all in with trips vs pair and lose, then all in Ace high vs pair and win, that´s a game in then life of a poker player! Your crap calls win and your great calls lose because why?...They´re the ones you remember! Freak coicidences stick out, whilst hands that stand up are momentarily appreciated then forgotten.

You insist on playing online multi-player tourney´s (with shorter stacks, more players and shorter blind increases than live) and then moan when you don´t reach the big bucks! GOOD! YOU DONT DESERVE IT! I play a ridiculous amount of SINGLE tables per hour so that 2 or 3 make it into the money, and you play one ooober 5000 entrant tourny a day and expect a house? GET REAL!

The average profitable grinder earns between 10%-20% of whatever they have bet so unless you´re betting $10,000 a game as a profitable player, dont expect any riches soon!

If you grind 8 single tables for 4 hours a day, you will realise poker is a cruel but fair game over a 2-3 months, but playing 1 multi-table a day, you aren´t gonna have a clue about variance until a few years down the line.

Take it from a multi-table grinder that the shit you see and write about every few days happens to me every few minutes, but take it in your stride, and by the end of the season, you´ll have all the profit you TRULY deserve. Blaming rigged sites is bullshit! There are thousands of grinders profiting from these sites, and the sooner you realise this and make that all-important change to your pre-flop play/flop play/turn play/river play/bankroll management/game selection/player selection/profit selection/frame of mind/ etc the sooner you can start taking control of the games you play. Good luck and ffs get real!

[buck22]

Per Eldave, Billy, + whoever belives in rigged poker sites, my challenge (which rarely gets accepted) is always on offer that I will play you HU anytime, anysite, not only because the sites are fair, but because I believe the true purpose of Poker is to improve your game and ´I will win money or become a better player´ Many players on this thread say they are good players but until they accept a challenge from a random thread-poster, I can only assume that TRULY you don´t have any confidence in your own game and therefore have no right to post slanderous threads against the major online poker sites.

So is it ´releasing steam´ or accepting my challenge?

[billytk01]

buck22... i say this in all sincerity and honesty.... I will accept your challenge but... I will play you HU live not online.. obviously geographics may be a problem... but I do travel alot with my job and play at various venues regularly... maybe we can arrange something friendly like a 1k hu or something (even tho I dont really know how good my game is at hu but i do like a challenge) but i play regularly at hollywood park casino in los angeles, borgata/taj mahal in atlantic city, mirage/wynn/bellagio in las vegas.... if any of these venues are acceptable and my schedule allows as well as you than we can do this...

but I have no faith or interest in playing online..

[eldave1]

Buck:

1) why the rage? you would think we insulted your mother or something. You anger is way out of proportion to the issue.

2) You do read - yes??? You understand that I was describing one hand that was illustrative of many that I have had - that I did just get bad beat once and started sobbing.

3) Spare me the it's your perception/you remember the hands you lose, blah blah - as I have posted before - I keep track of every single hand. You have posted this perception crap about a dozen times completely ignoring mine, Billys, etc etc statements that are opinions are based on an assessment of our actual HHs - not our poor memories.

4) the faith you put in these hyper space guys is overwhelming - Do you even know who owns FT???? No, you don't - no one does. There software was developed by Tiltware, they are sponsored by many. most notably Ferguson - but no one knows who the actual owners even are. Think about that - a company that rakes this much $$ and their ownership is secret.

5) Please - for the sake of God stop with the poker advice - it makes me cringe. I have been playing for more then 30 years, including the WSOP and WTP events, and it makes me want to vomit when some noob on the internet holds them out as an expert, or worse, someone who ought to be given advice on poker. When I need guidance - I'll consult one of the dozen or so of poker books on my shelf or bs around with the the real high stake players at any one of the half dozen REAL casinos in the Los Angeles area. I don't need it from a penny ante on-line player. You hubris is comical.

5) Your challenge - okay - so, does the winner win the argument? is that point - you beat me and I concede it is not rigged? I beat you and you concede it is rigged?? Is that the point of the challenge in context of this debate. If not - the point is???????