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[Denethor]

I wasn't trying to say that the player receiving AA was a better player just by virtue of receiving AA. But clearly the player going all in with K4s is not going to be a good player. So I should have reversed in my example and had the AA player go all-in first. That really isn't at all relevant to the point I'm trying to make. I chose a poor example.

I was wrong to make assumptions about odd things happening in real poker because of my very limited experience. The problem that I see is that on FTP those 99:1 miracles seem happen all the time. I'm not just talking about to people against whom I'm playing. I see it even when I observe.

I set up an account on PokerStars a couple weeks ago, but hadn't played there hardly at all because I prefered the FTP software. I went to PokerStars and entered a play-money tournament equivalent to one I had been in most recently on FTP. The difference was like night and day.

I play tournaments ridiculously tight and agressive. That's not any brag on me because it's not "my" style or anything. That's just how much of I've read suggests beginners play. On FTP, I would blind out over and over before reaching the top 20. I just never received any playable pocket cards. I would go 50 hands without ever receiving anything better than K8o. When I did get what I counted as playable cards, I never hit the flop and others with significantly inferior pocket cards would get exactly what they needed (three of a kind, flush, full house, etc.). There were never any reasonable victories - only over-the-top ones. People didn't win with pairs or high cards. They won with straight flushes and four of a kind. Strong pocket cards just could not win in FTP tournaments.

The first and only tournament I played on PokerStars (just finished), I used the exact same ultra-tight play that I did on FTP, and I cruised to fourth place - even with antes! I am certain that I would NOT have won (terrible in heads up) but am confident I could easily have finished higher if I hadn't called an all-in because I had to leave. Most hands were decided by pairs or an occasional three of a kind. Players weren't as crazy about calling any raise with any card. Every hand didn't turn into an all-in-fest. It was so much nicer.

Now, you may just say that the difference was that the other players were playing tighter than those do on FTP. Or you could say that I was playing with worse opponents and was able to finish higher. Either of those could be the case, but they were still playing pretty poorly (all-in with TQo when I had AQs and raised substantially pre-flop) and this was a very low level tournament. Instead, my thinking is that the players on FTP play the way they do (calling everything, all-in all the time, etc.) for the simple reason that playing that way works on FTP. If people consistently lost when shoving all-in with 78s, they would either quit or learn that it's not the right way to play. Instead, for whatever reason, they hit these bizarre miracles on the turn or river upsetting much better hands enough that they think they are playing well and are making the correct calls.

[VA Poker]

I understand what you are saying but you have to see the big picture. You, and most of the other people who claim FTP is rigged are playing pretty low stakes (not to degrade I play low stakes myself). My point is, why would FTP bother rigging these small games when most of their profit comes from high level cash games and large buy in sng's and mtt's. We are lucky they even offer the low stakes games. Why would they risk losing the high stakes guys by rigging the low level games? To me, it just makes no sense. Not a single high stakes player has come on here claiming its rigged, nor has a single player come on and claimed the site is working in their favor, how can it be against everyone?

The other thing is, I've played on 4 different sites over the past few years and on every single site, every time there is a bad beat someone in the chat box screams rigged. The only differences I've seen on these 4 sites (ultimatebet, pokerstars, fulltilt, and playersonly) is the level of play. UB and PO have way more fish than stars and ft. Granted I've put in the least time on full tilt, I've still seen about 20,000 hands by multi tabling for about 100 hours. Poker players will always look for any excuse why they got screwed or are unlucky (haven't you heard those who claim they have NEVER won a single race?), the bottom line is that if these people really truly believed ftp of any other site was rigged they would never spend another penny playing there (unless they are crazy).

I don't claim that I KNOW for sure 100% that these sites are not rigged. It's just my opinion that sites worth billions of dollars wouldnt jeopardize their whole net worth and reputation by rigging a 10 dollar sng so some fish will like poker more. It just seems to me that everyone who claims its rigged for sure is just looking at their small immediate experience and not grasping the full scope of these sites operations and the consequences vs rewards for these sites to rig the lowest level games.

As far as your claim that people only play poorly bc they know it works, you have to think about the nature of gambling. Some guys really want to be skilled poker players and some guys simply want to gamble. There are rich guys who sit down at the highest level tables and play horribly just because they crave the action. I lost 5k on the blackjack tables last time I was in Vegas, it wasnt because I thought I somehow had some advantage playing high stakes blackjack drunken and sleep deprived, I was just gambling. Thats what those guys who never ever lay down the suited connectors pre flop are doing. You'll see those guys no matter how high you make it up the ladder in poker. It's kind of like me writing these posts when there is about a 10000:1 shot I will convince anyone to think like me who already doesnt.