inexperienced players

[sweeten2213]

Hey everyone. This is my first post. I played Hold'Em about a year ago, and I am loving it. Everything from watching it to reading about (and of course playing). So far I've only played home games, usually small buy ins, and usually against fairly inexperienced players. I'm no pro, but I find that when I play hands that I should playand I bet them how I should bet them, other more inexperienced players aren't and are increasing their pot size while winning with 10 high or a pair of 3's. Meanwhile, I had a two pair, but the betting represents my hand is beat - and I mean crazy betting. Even bad players get good hands, though, and I can never predict what crazy betting is for a good hand and what crazy betting is for a hand they think is good. I read in a book today that one pro won't even play AQ siuted in an early position at a full table. I play with people who will literally call the big blind with anything just to "see the flop". I usually sit back and watch players get eliminated unless I have a strong hand, because bluffing at a pot is almost impossible (they will call alomost anything). By the time it gets down to me and one other person, that person has gotten lucky,taken advantage of the other bad players, and I am severely short stacked. I guess it just seems like when a table is full of a majority of inexperienced players, all conventional strategy goes out the window. I win my fair share, but lose too often because I'm short stacked in the end to a bad player. I could go on and on, but I think you know what I mean. Any suggestions?

The key to these small tournaments like you are describing is to vary your play as the tournament dictates. I generally play 6 man SNG's that pay 2 or 3 places. The table usually has a couple loose-aggressive types, a few strong players (in which I include myself), and a couple average players. Early on, the play of the loose players dominates the table. About half the time they get knocked out right away, with the money going to the average players, or they knock out the average players themselves. This leaves the two average, loose players with large stacks and two strong players with shorter stacks.

The good thing about this is they have a hard time holding onto that money. They like to call all-in bets with K-small unsuited if they think they can knock you out. They play to get lucky. The trick is to not get into preflop wars against these types. You want to outplay them, not outdraw them. Be prepaired to drop AQ when they move all-in over the top of your preflop raise, unless you are feeling pressure from the blinds.

My strategy is to play rather tightly until the field is down to about half the players left, then start to make my moves. You have to make your move before it's just two of you left. Try to get them heads up, then get aggressive if you make any sort of hand. Top pair is a monster in this situation. They will call you down with low pairs and draws. Avoid multiway pots unless you have big draws and correct odds. By the time I am heads up (if I make it that far) I am usually playing super aggressively.

The home games i play usually have 3 different types of players........The Loose/Passive or the call station. If you're in a hand with an LP put in big bets we u got it because they're almost always gonna call. If a scare card hits, 3rd card to a suit or 4 to a straight, you should check.... if they hit they'll bet and if they miss they will probably check. LP's rarely bluff but will occasionally so watch for tells and use your best judgement. If they raise or make a big bet watch out they've probably got a hand.

The second type is the Tight/Passive or a mouse. These players are easily spotted because they fold most of their hands. When they bet or raise they almost certainly have a hand. When you're in a hand with a TP bluff and semi-bluff more often. Bet your straight draws and flush draws. They will fold most of the time to a flop bet if they don't hit. If you bet the flop and they raise you should probably fold. If you bet the flop and they just call you're in okay shape they're either on a draw or have a small pair. If you don't hit on the turn consider check folding because they either have a pocket pair or hit something on the flop. If a TP is on a draw they will probably check the turn if it didn't help them. If you check the turn and the TP does too then they are on a draw or think their hand is second best. If the river is an obvious miss for any draws you should bet as most TP's are already second guessing their hand and you will probably push them out of the pot.

The third type is the Loose/Aggressive. This guy is in almost every hand and is raising all the time. I play a weekly game and the same guy will consistenly raise pre-flop with hands like J7 suited. His strategy is to try and push the passive players out of the pot and to keep everyone guessing what kind of hand he has becuse he'll play J7suited almost as agressively as AA. I'm guessing this is the type of guy who is usually chip leader near the end at your home games. He wins because some players are there just to play and will call a lot of pre-flop raises but fold to his flop bets if they miss. The same thing goes for the TP's. The TP's might call the LA player's pre-flop raise but will fold to the LA's big bets if they don't hit something good. He wins alot of pots just by being a bully. The best way to beat him is to pick your spots. If he raises pre-flop and everyone folds around to you and you have any pair higher than 6's you might wanna reraise. You're probably way ahead in the hand. If you hold a monster like AA maybe just call and hope he pairs jack or queen, then you can come over the top for a huge raise. You should definetly see more showdowns against an LP medium sized pairs are often good against these guys. Don't try to bluff these guys or call alot with drawing hands unless the pot odd dictate otherwise. Let the LP bully the other players but pay attention to which players are easily bullied so you can steal some pots too.
When the LP comes at you stand your ground, you'll lose a few hands against him but you'll win alot more.

Thanks for the replies. I actually find myself up against a combo of these types. Not so much strategically raising blinds to steal them, just more of a gentlemenly everyone call, everyone in kind of thing. The problem is, there is still no rhyme or reason to the betting and them pushing chips forward just seems to be fun. Also, they will call almost anything as not to back down. Like the third example in the last post, when someone bets or calls everything, you have no idea what they have. As an example, I'm usually the only one or one of the only ones to fold any hand pre-flop. Not a lot of raises, but everyone is in. If anyone raises, everyone os still in. Whoever is getting the most lucky ends up winning since everyone is in. I'm exagerting a little, but not much. Does this add any new perspective for anyone to help me out

[Locohombre]

...are the hardest to read. They usually don't have a clue how strong their hand really is, so they give off false reads...unintentionally.

[deekay140]

The good thing about inexperienced players is you can get payed well when You have the cards, you have to play straight up, but if you flop big hands you can get maxium payout if you bet it right. I had 2 amateurs give me 700 chips each, out of there 1000 chip start on the first hand of a tourney. I flopped top 2 pair and they both chased flush draws and folded on the river.

You play these types straight up and leave yourself outs, there easy to knock out and get paid off.

Skill will beat out luck everytime.

Originally Posted by deekay140

Skill will beat out luck everytime.

That's simply not true. Skill will give you a better chance to win, but is no guarantee. Luck will always be a big part of playing poker. That is why this game is appealing to so many, the skilled and unskilled alike. Especially in tournament poker, where one hand can make or break you, luck can beat skill.

Everyone had some good advice, but really it sounds to me like you should find some new games with more serious players. People often tend to forget how important game selection is. I think of every table I sit at as a puzzle...beating a game is like solving a puzzle because every table requires a different approach.

So....like I said before, I think you really need to find a new game and in the future when you sit down at the table, sit back and observe for a while and then ask yourself, "what's the formula for beating this game?"

[Iceman37]

Let's not forget one of the most important considerations when dealing with the situation you're describing...and this goes along with the whole "skill vs. luck" thing. LEARN YOUR MATH.

If you know the probability of the game, you'll be so much further ahead in all circumstances, and particularly in the one you describe. If you know your odds of hitting a hand versus what the pot is offering, you know when to bump or dump. If you know the odds of your flush holding up when there's a pair on the board, you'll know when to bump or dump. If you know when to bump or dump, you can't help but beat the game you're describing.

And while it's true that skill won't "beat" luck every time, it WILL OUTEARN LUCK IN THE LONG RUN. "Lucky" players are losers. This you can count on. People who KNOW HOW TO PLAY are the ones who make the money. A big part of knowing how to play is knowing the math of the game.

[Locohombre]

Originally Posted by Iceman37

Let's not forget one of the most important considerations when dealing with the situation you're describing...and this goes along with the whole "skill vs. luck" thing. LEARN YOUR MATH.

If you know the probability of the game, you'll be so much further ahead in all circumstances, and particularly in the one you describe. If you know your odds of hitting a hand versus what the pot is offering, you know when to bump or dump. If you know the odds of your flush holding up when there's a pair on the board, you'll know when to bump or dump. If you know when to bump or dump, you can't help but beat the game you're describing.

And while it's true that skill won't "beat" luck every time, it WILL OUTEARN LUCK IN THE LONG RUN. "Lucky" players are losers. This you can count on. People who KNOW HOW TO PLAY are the ones who make the money. A big part of knowing how to play is knowing the math of the game.

...but the unregistered poster is correct also. What good is skill if you are unlucky? There's nights when I go in with a huge favorite and get burned multiple times. In the long run, it should even out though, like you said.

Originally Posted by Locohombre

...but the unregistered poster is correct also. What good is skill if you are unlucky? There's nights when I go in with a huge favorite and get burned multiple times. In the long run, it should even out though, like you said.

Speaking of nights like you described I feel as if I am on a major unlucky streak. Knowing the odds haven't helped one bit during this streak. 3 days in a row have lost my entire bankroll for the sessions. All cash games 200.00 buy in max. Early afternoon, action is slow no major wins as of yet. Pick up a pot here and there. Action is to me, one raiser into a pot of 15.00, he raises 17.00 , I call with A 8 Clubs. Flop hits me square in the face with CCC. I check , he bets 15.00 , I smooth call, Turn comes, I check he checks. River comes he bets 15.00 , I raise after some hesitation 20.00 more, He goes all in and I call winning the hand with the made flush. Few hands later I win again with QQ this time taking a pot of 75.00, then the hand. Few hands later I am dealt KK, all fold to a raiser of 17.00. I raise him 40.00 more into a pot of 24.00. He calls. Ouch didn't really want that. Oh well. He just called. Flop comes RRR. He checks I bet 40.00, he goes all in. I am thinking omg, what does he have? I make the call 275.00 more to me. see where I am headed. He turns over his cards, holding 8 5 and the flop has an 8 on board. I am thinking alright I am going to double up and really knock the table around. So he has a pair and I have KK. He said I didn't think you would call, I was hoping you would have put me on a set. He said great call. Now the turn comes and it is an 8 giving him 3 of a kind. No improvement on the river for me. He wins and I take my little left over s and try to build back up. An hour later I am leaving with my tail tucked between my legs. Bad beat or temporary set back. either way it hurts. LOL.
Next day, I start over with another 200.00 buy in. Nothing fancy in the way of winning pots. I have around 200.00 when this hand comes up. There are 4 people calling a raise of 10.00 into a pot of 6.00, so the pot has 56.00 with my call. I have 8 9 hearts. I said for 10.00 more I will make the call. The flop comes Q J and 4 hearts. Wow another flopped flush. With a gut shot draw to the str8 flush. Very good. There is guy who has about 80.00 in his stack. He goes all in. He is in front of me. I go all in to shut out any other callers. So now I have all my chips in the middle ( money ) the rest of the folks fold except one guy who calls my all in. He has around the same amount of chips I do. He turns over Q 10 for two pair, the first all in turns over A Q. For top pair. I turn over the made flush, with the gut shot , however that is negated when the 10 the first all in made was the 10 hearts. Still sitting pretty on the turn. Nothing, then the river, mister two pair gets a Q , the case Q, the only one left in the deck Queen to make a boat. I lose and this guy wins. I buy back in for 100.00 more. Three hands later I get a raiser after my initial raise. He raises it 65.00 more putting him all in. I have KK, I make the call. He turns over A 6 . I think please no Aces. Sure enough, flop gives him an A. I lose that pot. I go home.
2 days later in another game, I am down to 125.00 and am dealt A 9 Spades. I call a raise of 15.00. 2 more callers behind me. Ok, not bad. Flop comes Spade Spade Ace of Heart. Don't care what card. I see black. The original raiser bets out 25.00, I raise all in and another guy goes all in for 50.00 more, the original raiser calls my all in. The Turn is an A of spades. I go yes, I am now with a flush and the original bettor has a set of 3's and the 50.00 all in has 2 Aces now. The river brings another A, I lose a pot to a full house and quad Aces. I am in no mans land now with these three days of getting my money in with the best hand and losing this way. I know it is poker and eventually the luck will swing again, but dang this sure hurts. So knowing the math is where you can set your self a apart from others , but if lady luck is not there nor is your bank roll. Hang it up. You are going to lose.

[Locohombre]

Yeah, when that crap happens, I move down a few steps to really inexpensive games until I get some kind of luck back. It helps a little bit. You tend to go less broke that way. I remember doing that once, then I start playing $10 home game tournaments and it got even worse. I was reading people perfectly, getting called on all ins with 4 or 5 to 1 odds at least and just getting burnt. It happens.
The last $100 tourney I played in, I slow play and then check raise pocket As (3 handed, other person folded, all about evenly stacked) until he has about 3/4 of his stack in the pot. Flop gives him a pair of 5s (he has J5) then he somehow catches a full house on the river. I wanted to kill somebody. I still placed in the money, but still...I played the hand perfectly and got roasted.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Speaking of nights like you described I feel as if I am on a major unlucky streak. Knowing the odds haven't helped one bit during this streak. 3 days in a row have lost my entire bankroll for the sessions. All cash games 200.00 buy in max. Early afternoon, action is slow no major wins as of yet. Pick up a pot here and there. Action is to me, one raiser into a pot of 15.00, he raises 17.00 , I call with A 8 Clubs. Flop hits me square in the face with CCC. I check , he bets 15.00 , I smooth call, Turn comes, I check he checks. River comes he bets 15.00 , I raise after some hesitation 20.00 more, He goes all in and I call winning the hand with the made flush. Few hands later I win again with QQ this time taking a pot of 75.00, then the hand. Few hands later I am dealt KK, all fold to a raiser of 17.00. I raise him 40.00 more into a pot of 24.00. He calls. Ouch didn't really want that. Oh well. He just called. Flop comes RRR. He checks I bet 40.00, he goes all in. I am thinking omg, what does he have? I make the call 275.00 more to me. see where I am headed. He turns over his cards, holding 8 5 and the flop has an 8 on board. I am thinking alright I am going to double up and really knock the table around. So he has a pair and I have KK. He said I didn't think you would call, I was hoping you would have put me on a set. He said great call. Now the turn comes and it is an 8 giving him 3 of a kind. No improvement on the river for me. He wins and I take my little left over s and try to build back up. An hour later I am leaving with my tail tucked between my legs. Bad beat or temporary set back. either way it hurts. LOL.
Next day, I start over with another 200.00 buy in. Nothing fancy in the way of winning pots. I have around 200.00 when this hand comes up. There are 4 people calling a raise of 10.00 into a pot of 6.00, so the pot has 56.00 with my call. I have 8 9 hearts. I said for 10.00 more I will make the call. The flop comes Q J and 4 hearts. Wow another flopped flush. With a gut shot draw to the str8 flush. Very good. There is guy who has about 80.00 in his stack. He goes all in. He is in front of me. I go all in to shut out any other callers. So now I have all my chips in the middle ( money ) the rest of the folks fold except one guy who calls my all in. He has around the same amount of chips I do. He turns over Q 10 for two pair, the first all in turns over A Q. For top pair. I turn over the made flush, with the gut shot , however that is negated when the 10 the first all in made was the 10 hearts. Still sitting pretty on the turn. Nothing, then the river, mister two pair gets a Q , the case Q, the only one left in the deck Queen to make a boat. I lose and this guy wins. I buy back in for 100.00 more. Three hands later I get a raiser after my initial raise. He raises it 65.00 more putting him all in. I have KK, I make the call. He turns over A 6 . I think please no Aces. Sure enough, flop gives him an A. I lose that pot. I go home.
2 days later in another game, I am down to 125.00 and am dealt A 9 Spades. I call a raise of 15.00. 2 more callers behind me. Ok, not bad. Flop comes Spade Spade Ace of Heart. Don't care what card. I see black. The original raiser bets out 25.00, I raise all in and another guy goes all in for 50.00 more, the original raiser calls my all in. The Turn is an A of spades. I go yes, I am now with a flush and the original bettor has a set of 3's and the 50.00 all in has 2 Aces now. The river brings another A, I lose a pot to a full house and quad Aces. I am in no mans land now with these three days of getting my money in with the best hand and losing this way. I know it is poker and eventually the luck will swing again, but dang this sure hurts. So knowing the math is where you can set your self a apart from others , but if lady luck is not there nor is your bank roll. Hang it up. You are going to lose.

Have you ever thought you need to slow down a little? I don't feel sorry for you at all.

it's pretty simple, it's the money. Inexperienced players can afford to see cards in small games. More cards more chances for them to build a hand.

I'll pay a buck to see more cards all day long but if I have to pay more, even if it's only say $5-10 to see more cards I might have to pick my spots to go in.

All you guys have to be kidding me, no wonder you all get sucked out in poker. I read one post of somebody losing their bankroll in three days. From what I read it seems that you had a 500$ bankroll and are playing at a 2-4$ no limit game. Has it ever occured to you that 500$ bankroll is defintely too small for a 2-4$ game espeacialy when it's no limit. Lesson to everyone, at least have 400 times the big blind for a bankroll for the limit you will be playing at.


And if no one is going to properly answer sweeten2213's question then I might as well. It seems that you are playing a t a lower limit sort of game because everyone is in every pot. With that many people in your going to usually need at least trips to win the pot. So what you have to change for these lower limit house pot games is your hand selection. Suited connectors are your best friend and any pocket pair are your best friend too. Don't try to raise with these hands before the flop try to just call so you can see a flop and take advantage of them. If you don't hit the flop in anyway and their is a bet in place then lay the hand down. If you have a pocket pair try to limp in with it and try to hit trips, if not and you are holding a lower pocket pair then lay it down when their is a bet in front of you. Your only one distinct advantage over this field of bad players is your ability to value bet when you have made your hand. Don't check with when in a pot with a bad player bet it out, cause you know they will call.


If your playing limit poker than you use this strategie which is going on draws and trying to hit trips, but if you are playing no limit try to do it when you are on the button or in the blinds so to make sure you aren't raised. And also when it is in no limit you can open up your hand selection and raise before the flop with good hands.(Make sure it is a big enough raise to force people out even if you have to go all in.So make sure you are holding a hand you are willing to go all in with.) And the other reason why you can open up your hand selection in no limit is because you can punish them for chasing draws. Even if they do suck out on you, in the long run you will be a huge winner. By playing like this make sure you don't get discouraged by suckouts because as stated earlier if you play the hand correctly each time that you are in the same situation, then you will be a huge winner in the long run. Remember think of your poker games as big poker hands and your poker career as the big poker game.

Actually, it was 1/2 no limit. Bankroll was sufficient for the days that I was playing. The post was not a cry for help but a "look what can happen " when luck takes over. Overly aggressive, no, in at the wrong time? no...just plain old bad luck. Temporary set back. Yes...I still play 1/2 no and 2/5 no...BTW never heard of 2/4 no, Limit yes, but not 2/4. I am still in the game and still palying the hands the way they should be played. If according to your play rules, you should never raise only call to see if you hit the flop with a pair or anything else suited? Tell me where you are playing and I will be there. You can not make money in this game with out being aggressive and potentially risking all your chips. In tournaments you play the cards. In cash games you play the player.
According to your theory I should lay down pairs if I don't hit a set? Come on...you know that is not good advice. If that was so then you would lay down Aces, or Kings. Don't think so. Or maybe you will if someone comes after you with a bet. Crazy man.
Don't feel sorry for me. My bankroll is a whole lot more than the 600.00 that I took to the game. I lost the 600.00 which was my starting limit and ending limit. Although I will rebuy if I think the game is good. Most sessions I can increase that 200.00 to 500.00 in about 3 to 4 hours of play, give or take. I then go home. I have had losing sessions, but had not had the losing sessions over a period of three days, with, well a sense " bad luck ". But that is poker. I had to take a week off before re entering the game. I am now back and winning and losing again, but not every session. Have regained my lost 600.00 back. Actually did that on one hand. Yesterday, I was dealt JJ and raised the pot. Had one caller. Pot now has 49.00 the original limpers and then my 20.00 raise and the one caller of my 20.00. Flop comes 5 4 9. I bet out 30.00 into the pot, he raises 70.00 more...I decide he thiinks I am on a bluff with something like AK. I call the 70.00...turn comes 2. I push all in he calls. I had 300.00 left in my stack he had 200.00 give or take. River comes Q. I take the pot. If I had played according to your advice, then I would have pansied out for nothing. This game takes guts. Play it like you have guts and you will be a winner. Don't wimp out just because someone has bet. Play the player, not the cards. Lesson over.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Actually, it was 1/2 no limit. Bankroll was sufficient for the days that I was playing. The post was not a cry for help but a "look what can happen " when luck takes over. Overly aggressive, no, in at the wrong time? no...just plain old bad luck. Temporary set back. Yes...I still play 1/2 no and 2/5 no...BTW never heard of 2/4 no, Limit yes, but not 2/4. I am still in the game and still palying the hands the way they should be played. If according to your play rules, you should never raise only call to see if you hit the flop with a pair or anything else suited? Tell me where you are playing and I will be there. You can not make money in this game with out being aggressive and potentially risking all your chips. In tournaments you play the cards. In cash games you play the player.
According to your theory I should lay down pairs if I don't hit a set? Come on...you know that is not good advice. If that was so then you would lay down Aces, or Kings. Don't think so. Or maybe you will if someone comes after you with a bet. Crazy man.
Don't feel sorry for me. My bankroll is a whole lot more than the 600.00 that I took to the game. I lost the 600.00 which was my starting limit and ending limit. Although I will rebuy if I think the game is good. Most sessions I can increase that 200.00 to 500.00 in about 3 to 4 hours of play, give or take. I then go home. I have had losing sessions, but had not had the losing sessions over a period of three days, with, well a sense " bad luck ". But that is poker. I had to take a week off before re entering the game. I am now back and winning and losing again, but not every session. Have regained my lost 600.00 back. Actually did that on one hand. Yesterday, I was dealt JJ and raised the pot. Had one caller. Pot now has 49.00 the original limpers and then my 20.00 raise and the one caller of my 20.00. Flop comes 5 4 9. I bet out 30.00 into the pot, he raises 70.00 more...I decide he thiinks I am on a bluff with something like AK. I call the 70.00...turn comes 2. I push all in he calls. I had 300.00 left in my stack he had 200.00 give or take. River comes Q. I take the pot. If I had played according to your advice, then I would have pansied out for nothing. This game takes guts. Play it like you have guts and you will be a winner. Don't wimp out just because someone has bet. Play the player, not the cards. Lesson over.

went back and read your post...you did give good advice. My apologies. Play little pairs carefully and make the draws pay dearly. As a matter of fact if you read my original post that is how I play. Sorry for the AA and KK comment. Doesn't sound like you will lay those down. : )